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[whytemyke]

I know it doesn't. Didn't say it did. He asked me if colleges handed out acceptance letter to 2.0 students. Yes, yes they do.

You're tryign to change the argument. The question asked was in regard to student bodies at large, nto taking into account the subgroup of athletes. Stop that or get out of the debate, troll.

 

[Kitschkraft]

That only works if people stop defining themselves by race. Once having black skin means about as much about a person as having black hair, that will be more likely to happen.

So, it's either :

A) Get rid of racial inequality by....actually getting rid of it, and doing something to curb discrimination against the most oppressed communities.

Or

B) Get rid of racial inequality by getting rid of the social construct which is race.

I mean, I see you're point, you're looking at the situation in a different perspect then me however.

I'd say that we are closer to A then to B.

Honestly though, I try not to look at it this philosophically, all I know is that the people in America with the brownest skin and the darkest hair have been the most systematically oppressed and that they have not recovered from this oppression even until today.

As long as there are 'racial attributes' there can't be equality of outcome. Certain strategies are going to be better than others. Black people might then be particularly adept at some things and less adept at others, and that's going to skew things.

I refuse to let this argument fall back on some biological stand. Are their racial attributes? I don't know. But I can't go to some of the project buildings I've seen, and believe that these people are soooooo different from everyone else that they are in these places strictly because of their genes. When I see kids growing up never having learned to read, something that is a basic, universal, human component of the homosapien brain, I tend to look elsewhere.

Once you destroy the link between cultural backgrounds/cultural perception and skin colour, that would be rapidly achievable, particularly if families passing resources on to their offspring minimized.

We will be living on space ports on Pluto before that happens however.

 

[Zeed]

Thats not the argument.

If you want to delve into labeling me some "angry, paranoid, delusional black man" then it really goes to show a lot about you, not me.

You're certainly angry, paranoid, and eager to classify others. I didn't know and couldn't care less about the black part.

My father came to this country with a hundred dollars and the clothes on his back. My mother came to watch over her younger sister alone, without support from their parents. Neither ever had the opportunity for more than a high school education. They worked hard from nothing to give me the opportunities I've had in life, and I've taken advantage of everything that was given to me. I've seen black classmates get into better colleges on weaker resumes, and guess what? I don't hold it against them. I'm happy for them. I'm where I want to be in life, and their success never cost me a thing.

But there are immigrant families who worked just as hard, but weren't as lucky. Nobody ever gave them an advantage, in fact many started out with absolutely no resources. Zip. The system as it stands currently treats them the same as the white middle class, it ignores their economic plight, and in fact disadvantages them because they were born yellow or brown instead of black. As if they didn't have enough challenges to overcome already.

Race-based Affirmative Action is unquestionably a moral wrong. Anyone who argues for it probably knows that, but have either rationalized it or, even worse, exploited it and have a personal stake in defending it to avoid guilt.

 

[Vish]

Agree 100% to that.


Actually, I will say that they have a lesser chance but it's not because of anything outside of the culture of their people A culture that:

glorifies the drug trade

Drug Trade is just a short cut for anyone really.

discourages intelligence). If you're a bookworm in Compton, there isn't much that the government can do about keeping your peers from killing you. Too successful? You're not "keeping it real" or being "black enough".

It's like listening to a Chris Rock joke. Can you provide some real information?

 

[Kitschkraft]

A sense of danger at home or at school due to living in a horrible neighborhood?

Unqualified teachers from the bottom of the cesspool?

Student's having to work (or drop out of school) to help their family make ends meat?

Students not being able to take home books because the school cannot afford adequate amounts of books?

Children having no example of success due to their parents (or parent) going through the problems listed above?

etc.

This doesn't even delve into the psychological aspects of being a poor, young, black child in america.

I don't want to delve into this shit too much because judging by this thread, I'm sure I would get attacked for being a communist or something.

However, just for thought, one should never underplay what the media, and cultural thought, does to people.

 

[darscot]

Most inner city school students have never even been on the internet. They use textbooks that are from before the end of the cold war. I'm not saying that we have to make these schools sanctuaries of intellect, but surely people can get on board with the idea that people who are using social studies books referring to the USSR as our biggest enemies are probably not going to be as well prepared to take on the world, ergo get into college, as people who have at least been reading stuff from sometime this millenium.

A sense of danger at home or at school due to living in a horrible neighborhood?

Unqualified teachers from the bottom of the cesspool?

Student's having to work (or drop out of school) to help their family make ends meat?

Students not being able to take home books because the school cannot afford adequate amounts of books?

Children having no example of success due to their parents (or parent) going through the problems listed above?

etc.

I can't even respond to this. These are nothing but excuses and there all pretty weak. Do adults not go to college in the US? I went at 27.

 

[harSon]

This doesn't even delve into the psychological aspects of being a poor, young, black child in america.

I don't want to delve into this shit too much because judging by this thread, I'm sure I would get attacked for being a communist or something.

However, just for thought, one should never underplay what the media, and cultural thought, does to people.

Trust me, I know

 

[WickedAngel]

Drug Trade is just a short cut for anyone really.



It's like listening to a Chris Rock joke. Can you provide some real information?

There have been a wealth of statistics posted that support the idea that education isn't a highly encouraged standard among uneducated blacks (Leading to lower graduation rates, higher crime, and higher instances of single-parent homes). Pick one.

I can't even respond to this. These are nothing but excuses and there all pretty weak. Do adults not go to college in the US? I went at 27.

That's all you'll typically see in these types of discussions. A bunch of excuses that are intended to downplay the personal responsibility for peoples' actions or lack of motivation.

 

[Kitschkraft]

I know it doesn't. Didn't say it did. He asked me if colleges handed out acceptance letter to 2.0 students. Yes, yes they do.

This is purely anecdotal, but one of my friends works in admissions at my university. She said that african american students are accepted more readily and with lower GPAs, SAT scores, and extracurricular activities. I don't see how this is remotely fair. The school goes out of its way to diversify things but they're only accepting subpar students.

Is it curbing social inquality?

Is it reasonable to think that these students may end up being the building blocks for better communities, communities that will eventually produce students that WON'T always be less adept?

 

[Zeed]

I suppose I should say here that I'd support AA based on economic disparity, not racial disparity.

The vast majority of people in this thread do. The vast majority of objective individuals who consider the facts do. The nuances of the situation are unfortunately lost on most of this country however, so it becomes a-keep-it-or-ditch-it-but-don't-reform-it thing, or a wedge issue in a larger political game of chess.

When faced with those two options, I'm going to have to opt for getting rid of the moral wrong rather than keeping it. However, I dream of a compromise reform that will probably never happen.

 

[harSon]

There have been a wealth of statistics posted that support the idea that education isn't a highly encouraged standard among uneducated blacks (Leading to lower graduation rates, higher crime, and higher instances of single-parent homes). Pick one.



That's all you'll typically see in these types of discussions. A bunch of excuses that are intended to downplay the personal responsibility for peoples' actions.

Sort of like your excuses for concealing fire arms?

I can't even respond to this. These are nothing but excuses and there all pretty weak. Do adults not go to college in the US? I went at 27.

Please enlighten me, how does social upbringing not influence ones lack of success in life.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

Is it curbing social inquality?

Is it reasonable to think that these students may end up being the building blocks for better communities, communities that will eventually produce students that WON'T always be less adept?

They're not as qualified, therefore they should not be as accepted. They should be accepted by the same exact standards white students are.

 

[whytemyke]

I can't even respond to this. These are nothing but excuses and there all pretty weak. Do adults not go to college in the US? I went at 27.

Of course they're excuses. Problems are often excuses... injustices are excuses. Is it not the job of government to right injustices and to fix problems?

A kid in Detroit getting shot is a pretty damn good excuse for not being able to get the same education as a kid going to school in some suburban safe-haven. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't this what we're talking about... creating an equal opportunity?

Nobody here is saying you can't succeed on your own accord. We're just saying that the black people who succeed have shown far more accord than the average white person, and that it shouldn't be so hard for the poor to begin with... with poverty being intrinsically linked to race in our country.

They're not as qualified, therefore they should not be as accepted. They should be accepted by the same exact standards white students are.

Put them in the position where you can accurately judge whether they're equally qualified or not and I'll get on board. But you're ignoring all evidence and asking them to live up to the same standards. How exactly is that "fair" at all?

 

[Vish]

There have been a wealth of statistics posted that support the idea that education isn't a highly encouraged standard among uneducated blacks (Leading to lower graduation rates, higher crime, and higher instances of single-parent homes). Pick one.

Yes but education, formal education, those are the words that should be used. Not intelligence.

 

[Zeed]

They're not as qualified, therefore they should not be as accepted.

Don't argue along these lines. It's not so simple. You cannot justly ignore the legacy of poverty and oppression that was still alive and strong just 50 years ago, nor can you claim that it has no affect on black communities today. They are not necessarily unqualified by any lack of their own effort or potential, but rather as a result of great wrongs this country is guilty of and has a responsibility to address. If you argue along these lines alone then AA actually makes sense.

For my part, I remain firm in my convictions and reasons for opposing AA.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

I would feel very uncomfortable, even depressed, knowing that I was accepted so the university could fill a quota. I would be a subpar statistic who was picked out like a puppy in the dog pound so the university could gloat about having XXX number of black students and how they are promoting diversity.

 

[whytemyke]

Don't argue along these lines. It's not so simple. You cannot justly ignore the legacy of poverty and oppression that was still alive and strong just 50 years ago, nor can you claim that it has no affect on black communities today. They are not necessarily unqualified by any lack of their own effort or potential, but rather as a result of great wrongs this country is guilty of.

You cannot effectively argue along this path without coming off as ignorant.

For my part, I remain firm in my convictions and reasons for opposing AA.

And I have every respect in the world for your opinion... yours is the only opposition opinion on the issue which I respect. I don't AGREE with it, though. I think it's foolhearty to cut out a branch of assistance for any group of people, despite how bad it is, without a guarantee of a future fix. Again with a metaphor, but it's like cutting off my broken leg without any intention on giving me a prosthetic.

 

[Kitschkraft]

You're certainly angry, paranoid, and eager to classify others. I didn't know and couldn't care less about the black part.

LOL, good old Zeed, he's not calling me an "angry black man", he's not threatened by my opinions, he just thinks I'm angry and happen to be black, no implied lack of reasoning behind my arguments, no social stigma attached....:lol :lol :lol

My father came to this country with a hundred dollars and the clothes on his back. My mother came to watch over her younger sister alone, without support from their parents. Neither ever had the opportunity for more than a high school education. They worked hard from nothing to give me the opportunities I've had in life, and I've taken advantage of everything that was given to me. I've seen black classmates get into better colleges on weaker resumes, and guess what? I don't hold it against them. I'm happy for them. I'm where I want to be in life, and their success never cost me a thing.

....tough luck????

But there are immigrant families who worked just as hard, but weren't as lucky. Nobody ever gave them an advantage, in fact many started out with absolutely no resources. Zip. The system as it stands currently treats them the same as the white middle class, it ignores their economic plight, and in fact disadvantages them because they were born yellow or brown instead of black. As if they didn't have enough challenges to overcome already.

So now it's only a black thing? Don't fucking kid yourself.

You want to hear a sob story? I live 35 minutes away from the university I go to....yet I par damn near 30 thousand dollar a year tuition to go here because I'm out of state. Immigrants get in here on in state tuition, and sometimes, free...boo fucking hoo.

 

[darscot]

Please enlighten me, how does social upbringing not influence ones lack of success in life.

Typically people that are the most successful have shit upbringing it's kind of how it works. At one point the light fucking goes on and you realize this shit is not good. You decide that your life is not going to end up in this shit ass situation. When your Daddy hands you everything in life people don't consider that success.

 

[Tamanon]

I would feel very uncomfortable, even depressed, knowing that I was accepted so the university could fill a quota. I would be a subpar statistic who was picked out like a puppy in the dog pound so the university could gloat about having XXX number of black students and how they are promoting diversity.

I would feel even worse that I was not selected by a university because I was not born into a world where my education would allow me to attend.

 

[Zeed]

I would feel very uncomfortable, even depressed, knowing that I was accepted so the university could fill a quota.

But you're not them. Don't try to pretend to know how they feel - you don't, and I don't. Again this is a poor route of attack.

 

[harSon]

I would feel very uncomfortable, even depressed, knowing that I was accepted so the university could fill a quota. I would be a subpar statistic who was picked out like a puppy in the dog pound so the university could gloat about having XXX number of black students and how they are promoting diversity.

You're assuming that Universities are selecting sub par Black students with grades that are simply 'passable'.

 

[whytemyke]

I would feel very uncomfortable, even depressed, knowing that I was accepted so the university could fill a quota. I would be a subpar statistic who was picked out like a puppy in the dog pound so the university could gloat about having XXX number of black students and how they are promoting diversity.

You're ignoring the debate and trolling, and I hope you get a ban for it. or just get out.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

You're ignoring the debate and trolling, and I hope you get a ban for it. or just get out.

Way to respond. You have no answers, that's why.

 

[darscot]

I would feel even worse that I was not selected by a university because I was not born into a world where my education would allow me to attend.

Whole fucking drama queen. Born into a world. You actually say this shit with a straight face.

 

[harSon]

Typically people that are the most successful have shit upbringing it's kind of how it works. At one point the light fucking goes on and you realize this shit is not good. You decide that your life is not going to end up in this shit ass situation. When your Daddy hands you everything in life people don't consider that success.

Rags to rich stories are a lot less common then rags to rags stories. The poor, no matter the race or country, tends to stay poor in the majority of cases.

 

[Slavik81]

I refuse to let this argument fall back on some biological stand. Are their racial attributes? I don't know. But I can't go to some of the project buildings I've seen, and believe that these people are soooooo different from everyone else that they are in these places strictly because of their genes. When I see kids growing up never having learned to read, something that is a basic, universal, human component of the homosapien brain, I tend to look elsewhere.

Racial attributes are cultural, not biological. A person's upbringing plays a large part in the person they become. And being raise in, say, an upper-class neighborhood in Japan will give you a very different perspective than being raised by a dirt-poor family in Illinois.

It's the shared environment that creates those attributes, and they are passed down in the way parents raise their children as well, allowing them to survive (to some extent) even outside the original culture it was formed in.

It's a tad idealistic to hope that eventually that won't be so tightly bound to skin colour, but the post I was responding to was also talking about a goal that's idealistic as well. Those differences are always going to ensure that splits are not perfectly in line with demographics in all areas. In some areas they'll be better than expected, and some areas will be worse worse. That is, unless race becomes irrelevant to a person's identity.

(I was worried that people might totally misunderstand my previous post, so it's nice to see that only a little fixing up was need)

 

[Tamanon]

Whole fucking drama queen. Born into a world. You actually say this shit with a straight face.

I'm sorry I took an equally dramatic position opposite a dramatic position. Please forgive me, good sir

 

[plovie]

AA might be justifiable if it actually worked. There's every reason to call it a failure however.

 

[whytemyke]

Way to respond. You have no answers, that's why.

I have answered every single thing you've posited that has been anywhere near the realm of debate. everytime you hit a roadblock you just jump back to the whole "stupid black kids dont belong in college" bit.

 

[Zeed]

LOL, good old Zeed, he's not calling me an "angry black man", he's not threatened by my opinions, he just thinks I'm angry and happen to be black, no implied lack of reasoning behind my arguments, no social stigma attached....:lol :lol :lol

You're a joke, and have been for while. You honestly seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you must be racist. Pitiful.

...tough luck????

Same to you, and any others who "resent" the fact that the racist policy under debate is finally being repealed.

So now it's only a black thing? Don't fucking kid yourself.

I thought you didn't like fallacies? Because that's a strawman if I've ever seen one.

Immigrants get in here on in state tuition, and sometimes, free...boo fucking hoo.

So at the end of the day it really comes down to a "fuck everyone else" thing for you. It's what I suspected, glad to have established that.

And with that I think I've made my points. Got shit to do, see you.

And I have every respect in the world for your opinion... yours is the only opposition opinion on the issue which I respect. I don't AGREE with it, though. I think it's foolhearty to cut out a branch of assistance for any group of people, despite how bad it is, without a guarantee of a future fix. Again with a metaphor, but it's like cutting off my broken leg without any intention on giving me a prosthetic.

I can agree to disagree. I'm glad that civil debate on this topic is still possible.

 

[whytemyke]

I'm sorry I took an equally dramatic position opposite a dramatic position. Please forgive me, good sir

:lol

maybe if you went to a good school you'd understand his plight. florida students are too stupid though.

 

[darscot]

Rags to rich stories are a lot less common then rags to rags stories. The poor, no matter the race or country, tends to stay poor in the majority of cases.

Oh come on they stay poor because people go around talking that kind of shit. The cream always rises to the top. (and that is in no way a white reference)

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

I have answered every single thing you've posited that has been anywhere near the realm of debate. everytime you hit a roadblock you just jump back to the whole "stupid black kids dont belong in college" bit.

Don't you dare reduce my postings to that. I've said that the best and brightest should be accepted. It isn't a black thing, though I find it funny that you've made it into one. Like I said, if you file under the standards then you can be accepted. But if you're being accepted under different standards just because of your skin color (this applies to whites, asians, etc. as well) then that is obviously wrong.

 

[Tamanon]

:lol

maybe if you went to a good school you'd understand his plight. florida students are too stupid though.

Hey fuck you buddy!

 

[StopMakingSense]

Fancy that, a racially divisive wedge issue ballot measure in swing states?

 

[whytemyke]

Don't you dare reduce my postings to that. I've said that the best and brightest should be accepted. It isn't a black thing, though I find it funny that you've made it into one. Like I said, if you file under the standards then you can be accepted. But if you're being accepted under different standards just because of your skin color (this applies to whites, asians, etc. as well) then that is obviously wrong.

You've said the best and brightest should be accepted and then ignored when people said that you have no method of deciding the best and brightest.

I'm waiting for a response to that. Until then, don't pretend that you're not reducing this to a pissing contest for you to shit on poor black people.

 

[harSon]

Oh come on they stay poor because people go around talking that kind of shit. The cream always rises to the top. (and that is in no way a white reference)

To be honest, you're being overly optimistic. I would love for the solution to poverty to be so simple, unfortunately, it's a lot more complicated then telling people to keep a positive attitude.

 

[WickedAngel]

Hey fuck you buddy!

I feel an SEC war coming on.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Colorado and Missouri, maybe, but Arizona, Nebraska, and Oklahoma? They're as red as they come.

5 states makes it much more of a matter in the media than 2 states.

 

[darscot]

To be honest, you're being overly optimistic. I would love for the solution to poverty to be so simple, unfortunately, it's a lot more complicated then telling people to keep a positive attitude.

I grew up poor as fucking dirt. I barely graduated highschool. Yet some how I managed to go to college get an education and get a fantastic job. You know what it wasn't really that hard. Well college was a bitch at times but getting in wasn't that hard. If you have a brain you realize they tell damn near everyone they won't be able to get in. 90% of those people give up and it's good as they would never make it anyway. Its amazing what happens when you just ask what hoops do I have to jump and start jumping them.

 

[harSon]

I grew up poor as fucking dirt. I barely graduated highschool. Yet some how I managed to go to college get an education and get a fantastic job. You know what it wasn't really that hard. Well college was a bitch at times but getting in wasn't that hard. If you have a brain you realize they tell damn near everyone they won't be able to get in. 90% of those people give up and it's good as they would never make it anyway. Its amazing what happens when you just ask what hoops do I have to jump and start jumping them.

As did I and many other people for that matter. However like I previously stated, the overwhelming majority of poor families stay poor. If the solution was as simple as constructive citizen, the situation would have been fixed quite a while ago.

 

[bjork]

Man. HarSon and race threads are like... something that is always together, but needs to be separated.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

You've said the best and brightest should be accepted and then ignored when people said that you have no method of deciding the best and brightest.

I'm waiting for a response to that. Until then, don't pretend that you're not reducing this to a pissing contest for you to shit on poor black people.

What a sensational accusation. Poor whites historically do poorly in school as well. You conveniently missed the part where I said that universities should accept the best and brightest despite race, gender, or creed. It's very simple--people apply for college and then they're accepted based in relation to others. If you're poor then that's tough shit. I don't know what else to tell you. Education should not take a hit because some people are born into a poor family. That is absurd.

 

[Tideas]

Considering the racial makeup of California, I must say that minorities did terrible! Asian Americans and whites are vastly overrepresented in the UC system while blacks are vastly underrepresented. These are all things that have gotten much worse over the past decade.

The split is also among class lines too (I went to a UC so I am familiar with these numbers). Over the past decade the median and average income for UC enrollees has gone way up. It's actually something that has happened in many state schools, which really should be a cause for tremendous concern.

Why does the university system need to represent a certain population of the state?

That's the most ridiculous statement ever.

 

[whytemyke]

What a sensational accusation. Poor whites historically do poorly in school as well. You conveniently missed the part where I said that universities should accept the best and brightest despite race, gender, or creed. It's very simple--people apply for college and then they're accepted based in relation to others. If you're poor then that's tough shit. I don't know what else to tell you. Education should not take a hit because some people are born into a poor family. That is absurd.

We're not talking about poor families. We're talking about poor schools. How do you intend to get an equal measure of students who are stuck in poor schools versus the ones going to wealthier schools? That's like saying that because I eat M&M's and lost 15 pounds, everyone will lose weight on the M&M diet. I'm going to assume that you've learned nothing about scientific procedure/thought-- you can't make comparative statements without having a control group. I'm all for the best and brightest getting into college but tell me how we're going to make that happen. Standardized tests? Ok, but in order for that to work you've gotta make sure that people in the poor schools are getting the same quality of preparation as those in wealthier school districts. This is something you ignore.

You cannot continue to tout the naive "best and brightest" line until you solve the problem of finding out who is exactly the best and brightest. I don't have an answer here, but I know that I'm not going to support closing doors to people until we have a solution to this problem.

 

[plovie]

And look, just because you're poor and disadvantaged doesn't mean that you're completely fucked when it comes to college. Sure, you probably won't be going to Harvard or Yale, but really pretty much anyone that can read or write can get into a second or third tier university.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

We're not talking about poor families. We're talking about poor schools. How do you intend to get an equal measure of students who are stuck in poor schools versus the ones going to wealthier schools? That's like saying that because I eat M&M's and lost 15 pounds, everyone will lose weight on the M&M diet. I'm going to assume that you've learned nothing about scientific procedure/thought-- you can't make comparative statements without having a control group. I'm all for the best and brightest getting into college but tell me how we're going to make that happen. Standardized tests? Ok, but in order for that to work you've gotta make sure that people in the poor schools are getting the same quality of preparation as those in wealthier school districts. This is something you ignore.

You cannot continue to tout the naive "best and brightest" line until you solve the problem of finding out who is exactly the best and brightest. I don't have an answer here, but I know that I'm not going to support closing doors to people until we have a solution to this problem.

If my line about the "best and brightest" is naive then your line about "we've got to make sure that people in the poor schools are getting the same quality of preparation as those in wealthier school districts" is nothing but idealistic. You can hold onto that hope, but I'm here to tell you that it will never happen. It all starts with money. Wealthier schools are wealthy because most of the students' parents are wealthy. They're guaranteed a good education. Children that attend "poor" schools will never be guaranteed anything. That is just life.

Edit: I also agree with what plovie said above.

 

[whytemyke]

And the role of government is to right disparaties so that no people are getting a better treatment in the eyes of the government than another. This country is founded upon the idea. You can't just throw the rules out when the problems get too difficult.

 

[bjork]

Wealthier schools are wealthy because most of the students' parents are wealthy. They're guaranteed a good education. Children that attend "poor" schools will never be guaranteed anything. That is just life.

I'd say "guaranteed an opportunity at a good education." There's a lot of college grads who aren't too sharp, even if they went to a good school.