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[Zeed]

I'm implying that the man can shout against racism all he pleases, but when it comes to an issue where he and his ilk might actually have to sacrifice a bit...he is under-par.

Oh now this is very interesting.

What is my "ilk", Liara? Please, enlighten me.

 

[WickedAngel]

Read above asshole.

Frankly, I think I've read enough of your fucking bullshit to last me a lifetime. Thankfully, I have the option to change that.

Oh now this is very interesting.

What is my "ilk", Liara? Please, enlighten me.

All of us that are inherently rich and powerful white people, apparently.

 

[Kitschkraft]

No, your perspective implies that the advancement of a select few groups at the expense of all others somehow equates with equality.

Well, a "select few groups" had their advancement fucking years ago....like, since they first got to this country.

So the ends justify the means? Okay.

I'm not saying that it is or it isn't this way.

I could just as easily say "So the ends don't justify the means? Okay."

The point was that there is no need to argue over such a trivial matter.

Alright, here's where I stop reading your posts.

If you're going to call me, of all people, a racist because I don't share your narrow and frankly bigoted view of this issue, then please have the balls to say it outright. Don't try to be all subliminal about this shit.

I'm not necessarily calling you a racist, I'm implying that you may be willing to take any road that leads to the end of racism, EXCEPT the one that may come of an inconvenience to yourself.

This view of anti-racism is quite new actually, just look at people in the 60's and 70's, look at many of the whites in that era. Many understood that their place in society was unproportionate, they understood it. In todays world, where young whites just can't be racist (They all listen to Tupac), and they are all SO understanding of black issues, they are more likely to bitch and moan about "double standards" or "reverse racism" then to just look at the situation objectively for how it is.

 

[harSon]

Frankly, I think I've read enough of your fucking bullshit to last me a lifetime. Thankfully, I have the option to change that.

I explained my position, you simply felt the need to ignore it.

I take pride in knowing that I don't wrongfully generalize an entire group of people like a bigoted douche fuck.

 

[laserbeam]

What I find amusing in this all is the arguement qualified minorities get passed over. In reality Affirmative Action guarantees underqualified anyone get hired while qualified people get passed over just to meet racial quotas

 

[Count Dookkake]

"Sacrifice" implies a choice.

If there is a choice to opt out, fine by me.

But if "sacrifice" means forcibly taking more from one group than another or giving more to one group than another, I am sure there is a better word for it.

 

[Zeed]

I'm not necessarily calling you a racist, I'm implying that you may be willing to take any road that leads to the end of racism, EXCEPT the one that may come of an inconvenience to yourself.

Tell me first what my "ilk" is, then explain to me how affirmative action is an inconvenience to me.

 

[whytemyke]

this passed in michigan awhile ago. i did a debate in my campus newspaper on it and ran roughshod over the idiot they paired against me. i did what I could to get votes and it still was rammed thru... mind yuo, the cases were thrown out of court when it came to light that the laws were put on the ballot with illegal signatures in michigan.

anyways, this debate is dead to me. affirmative action of any type is going to be abolished around the country. this will allow white people to continue to bury their head in the sand while racism goes on around them, so that they can pretend the world is perfect and they're not guilty of gross negligence. but don't be offended about this black people... this isn't about you anymore. it's more about TEH MECKSIKANZ.

Just sit back. We white people are circling the wagons, and this will all be thrown away when someone sues the Michigan National Guard or the California National Guard because they're gay and aren't allowed to serve openly. Preferential treatment for straight people and all...


well, i take it back. it SHOULD be thrown away, but this country is so fucked up who knows.

 

[harSon]

"Sacrifice" implies a choice.

If there is a choice to opt out, fine by me.

But if "sacrifice" means forcibly taking more from one group than another or giving more to one group than another, I am sure there is a better word for it.

A band-aid.

 

[Tamanon]

I think it's clever of them to call it a Civil Rights Initiative. That's like at least 10 free points from people who don't pay attention.

 

[Kitschkraft]

It's a simple analogy. He was saying that I might have some deeply held racism, but in order to advance it I'm willing to fake indignation over smaller racial matters.

Thats not what I was trying to say.

Although, it's a possibility, now that you mention it....:lol :lol :lol

 

[Zeed]

Thats not what I was trying to say.

Yeah, it was. Oh, and nice roundabout way of saying "well I wasn't saying it but yeah I believe it".

What's my ilk. I'm dying to know.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

Colleges, for example, MUST accept the best and brightest. Filling quotas is detrimental to universities. If you're black and you're among the best and brightest then you should be welcome. Same applies to someone who is Jewish. Or a white person. Or an Asian. Or anything else you can think of. The best and the brightest. If you don't fall under that criteria then that's too fucking bad. Lowering standards, filling quotas, and robbing better qualified people is counterproductive and a travesty.

 

[whytemyke]

I think it's clever of them to call it a Civil Rights Initiative. That's like at least 10 free points from people who don't pay attention.

that's how they hide what they're doing. when they get people to sign on for support, they corner them by asking them "Well do you want to abolish a crime against civil rights in America? Sign here to support the American Civil Rights Initiative, to end racism in (your state here)."

So Joe Schmoe signs it, thinking they're getting on board finally with the whole "I like Black People, too, homie! He he, i said homie! I'm so accepting!" movement, only to later realize they just raped any acceptance of our history that there was.

Colleges, for example, MUST accept the best and brightest. Filling quotas is detrimental to universities. If you're black and you're among the best and brightest then you should be welcome. Same applies to someone who is Jewish. Or a white person. Or an Asian. Or anything else you can think of. The best and the brightest. If you don't fall under that criteria then that's too fucking bad. Lowering standards, filling quotas, and robbing better qualified people is counterproductive and a travesty.

Colleges don't take the best and brightest. They take the best samples of the people who are presented before them, but there is undeniable evidence that shows that poor neighborhoods, which just happen to be populated by blacks and other minorities, don't have the same tools at their disposal to present themselves to colleges. You want to dump money into every poor school district across the country so that their students can compete on the same level as those of the richest suburbs in the country, fine. I'll support tossing out AA, but the simple fact of the matter is that nobody wants to fix the problem. They just want to make it go away.


That's the crying shame. Colleges never find the best and brightest because we do nothing to repair the worst neighborhoods and school districts. The next Einstein could be sitting in a classroom at Detroit Denby and nobody would know the difference. So the thought is, "Well, if we at least make an attempt to get people from poor districts in, then maybe we'll get lucky." It's a gamble, for sure, but it's better than just sitting idly by expecting people to fix a problem when the people capable of fixing it have no interest in doing so.

 

[WickedAngel]

that's how they hide what they're doing. when they get people to sign on for support, they corner them by asking them "Well do you want to abolish a crime against civil rights in America? Sign here to support the American Civil Rights Initiative, to end racism in (your state here)."

So Joe Schmoe signs it, thinking they're getting on board finally with the whole "I like Black People, too, homie! He he, i said homie! I'm so accepting!" movement, only to later realize they just raped any acceptance of our history that there was.

Because limiting people based on their skin color does a whole lot to make reparations for limiting people based on their skin color, right?

Colleges don't take the best and brightest. They take the best samples of the people who are presented before them, but there is undeniable evidence that shows that poor neighborhoods, which just happen to be populated by blacks and other minorities, don't have the same tools at their disposal to present themselves to colleges. You want to dump money into every poor school district across the country so that their students can compete on the same level as those of the richest suburbs in the country, fine. I'll support tossing out AA, but the simple fact of the matter is that nobody wants to fix the problem. They just want to make it go away.

Jesus Christ, read a few pages of the thread. The problem you just outlined is exactly the type of problem that would be addressed by socioeconomic Affirmative Action.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Yeah, it was. Oh, and nice roundabout way of saying "well I wasn't saying it but yeah I believe it".

What's my ilk. I'm dying to know.

It doesn't fucking matter.

The argument applies to anyone person that feels threatened enough by AA to fight against it, even if they claim to be oh so non-bigoted.

I assume that you are white or asian, but you could be fucking martian, once again, it doesn't mean anything. I'm arguing a stance, not an identity of an anonymous internet poster.

 

[Zeed]

Because limiting people based on their skin color does a whole lot to make reparations for limiting people based on their skin color, right?

He said he supports tossing out AA. Everything else he said makes sense. I don't see a problem there.

It doesn't fucking matter.

The argument applies to anyone person that feels threatened enough by AA to fight against it

Threatened? I already have the only job I ever want to hold in my life. My job and my diploma are not in danger of being taken away, and I have absolutely nothing to gain by getting rid of AA.

Your assumption that everyone who recognizes that AA is a moral wrong must be threatened is so incredibly narrow-minded and stupid that it literally boggles my mind.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

Colleges don't take the best and brightest. They take the best samples of the people who are presented before them, but there is undeniable evidence that shows that poor neighborhoods, which just happen to be populated by blacks and other minorities, don't have the same tools at their disposal to present themselves to colleges. You want to dump money into every poor school district across the country so that their students can compete on the same level as those of the richest suburbs in the country, fine. I'll support tossing out AA, but the simple fact of the matter is that nobody wants to fix the problem. They just want to make it go away.

That's tough shit, frankly.

 

[Tamanon]

Equalize education at the beginning levels and you won't have to compensate at the higher levels, it's pretty simple. Although racial affirmative action has really become a bit unneeded, class-based still is.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I'm still waiting for Liara to guess what my ilk is.

You people.

 

[harSon]

that's how they hide what they're doing. when they get people to sign on for support, they corner them by asking them "Well do you want to abolish a crime against civil rights in America? Sign here to support the American Civil Rights Initiative, to end racism in (your state here)."

So Joe Schmoe signs it, thinking they're getting on board finally with the whole "I like Black People, too, homie! He he, i said homie! I'm so accepting!" movement, only to later realize they just raped any acceptance of our history that there was.



Colleges don't take the best and brightest. They take the best samples of the people who are presented before them, but there is undeniable evidence that shows that poor neighborhoods, which just happen to be populated by blacks and other minorities, don't have the same tools at their disposal to present themselves to colleges. You want to dump money into every poor school district across the country so that their students can compete on the same level as those of the richest suburbs in the country, fine. I'll support tossing out AA, but the simple fact of the matter is that nobody wants to fix the problem. They just want to make it go away.

Exactly. Affirmative Action is nothing more then a band-aid to turn attention from the necessary (and more expensive) plan.

 

[whytemyke]

Jesus Christ, read a few pages of the thread. The problem you just outlined is exactly the type of problem that would be addressed by socioeconomic Affirmative Action.

No shit, but that's not on the ballot, so if you read the rest of my post you'd understand that you're asking us to essentially get rid of one broken program in favor of NOTHING, which is just stupid.

And if you don't think it's stupid, then I'd ask to borrow $50 bucks from ya... I'll get it back to ya later.

 

[harSon]

You people.

What do you mean by you people?

Spoiler

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

Equalize education at the beginning levels and you won't have to compensate at the higher levels, it's pretty simple. Although racial affirmative action has really become a bit unneeded, class-based still is.

I absolutely agree. Absolutely. I'm all for class-based affirmative action.

 

[WickedAngel]

No shit, but that's not on the ballot, so if you read the rest of my post you'd understand that you're asking us to essentially get rid of one broken program in favor of NOTHING, which is just stupid.

And if you don't think it's stupid, then I'd ask to borrow $50 bucks from ya... I'll get it back to ya later.

The problem is that you're arguing against a position that nobody is taking in here. The vast majority of the people in this thread have expressed support for revision of the system, which is what the discussion has evolved into.

 

[harSon]

I absolutely agree. Absolutely. I'm all for class-based affirmative action.

Class-based affirmative action was the least important point in his post.

 

[Kitschkraft]

All of us that are inherently rich and powerful white people, apparently.

Thats not the argument.

If you want to delve into labeling me some "angry, paranoid, delusional black man" then it really goes to show a lot about you, not me.

 

[whytemyke]

That's tough shit, frankly.

:lol Easy for you to say. Just don't come crying to me when the decay of the poor come back to haunt the strongholds of the rich.

Christ, as if nobody learned anything from 9/11, or even world history. Ignore the poor people long enough, continue to fuck 'em over and out, and it never turns out so well for the people at the top of the food chain.

 

[WickedAngel]

Thats not the argument.

If you want to delve into labeling me some "angry, paranoid, delusional black man" then it really goes to show a lot about you, not me.

You're the one who is throwing around comments about our "ilk" and avoiding clarification. You're also the one who came up with that label.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Equalize education at the beginning levels and you won't have to compensate at the higher levels, it's pretty simple. Although racial affirmative action has really become a bit unneeded, class-based still is.

I agree somewhat with the beginning (However, we also need to understand the wealth inequality, something that I myself have no answer for), however, the bolded is bullshit, and will be bullshit until their is no correlation between races and poverty. It's still about race...if you handpicked random individuals off the street, and you were made to simply guess their socio-economic situation, your BEST determinent would be their race.

Your bolded statement won't be true until this test can best be completed by random guesses, and we are FAAAR from that.

 

[Slavik81]

Blacks are 15 percent of the country? They should own 15 percent of the GDP, be 15 percent of the elected leaders, have 15 percent of the fucking businesses, etc etc etc. Thats what AA is about.

That only works if people stop defining themselves by race. Once having black skin means about as much about a person as having black hair, that will be more likely to happen.

As long as there are 'racial attributes' there can't be equality of outcome. Certain strategies are going to be better than others. Black people might then be particularly adept at some things and less adept at others, and that's going to skew things.

Once you destroy the link between cultural backgrounds/cultural perception and skin colour, that would be rapidly achievable, particularly if families passing resources on to their offspring minimized.

 

[Kitschkraft]

That's tough shit, frankly.

I love these "Blacks just gotta make due" arguments, because I can say the exact same shit in regards to AA and it's so called massive consequences on white people!

What I find amusing in this all is the arguement qualified minorities get passed over. In reality Affirmative Action guarantees underqualified anyone get hired while qualified people get passed over just to meet racial quotas

Tough luck buddy, you're just going to have to live with Affirmative Action hiring all these unqualified minorities...don't know what to tell ya......:lol :lol :lol

 

[whytemyke]

The problem is that you're arguing against a position that nobody is taking in here. The vast majority of the people in this thread have expressed support for revision of the system, which is what the discussion has evolved into.

Just because nobody is vocally supporting the trashing of opportunity for the poorest in the country doesn't mean that they're not taking a de facto pro-racist position. I'm not saying everyone is about to don a hood here in this thread (although I'm not so sure about Absinthe with his 'tough shit' stance) but essentially people want to remove the "pure luck" factor that comes with affirmative action without replacing it.

It's like fat people who won't go on a scale, hoping that shying away from it will mean that they're not fat. The numbers are there whether you look at them or not, so you might as well look at them and deal with the problem.



edit: Ugh. i'm having flashbcks to college. I'm done with this debate. you guys do what you want... i'm of little consequence. you're right, absinthe. black people suck and don't deserve anything from white people. let them take it in the ass. i'm sure it'll work out well for white people everywhere... give blacks a reason to express their rage in more than words. let me know how it goes. *rolls eyes*

 

[darscot]

Colleges don't take the best and brightest. They take the best samples of the people who are presented before them, but there is undeniable evidence that shows that poor neighborhoods, which just happen to be populated by blacks and other minorities, don't have the same tools at their disposal to present themselves to colleges. You want to dump money into every poor school district across the country so that their students can compete on the same level as those of the richest suburbs in the country, fine. I'll support tossing out AA, but the simple fact of the matter is that nobody wants to fix the problem. They just want to make it go away.

First I'm a Canuck, but are poor schools and neighborhoods really that bad that they don't have a library or there is no way for a kid to find one. What are these mysterious tools that you need to present yourself to a college? It's an application form is it not? This seriously sounds hard to believe. The only tools I needed to present myself to college was a pen a piece of paper and a stamp.

 

[firex]

needs to be said again: Great job by whoever got these put on the ballots in the fall to get the anti-Obama vote out. It's gay marriage bans all over again.

 

[Kitschkraft]

You're the one who is throwing around comments about our "ilk" and avoiding clarification. You're also the one who came up with that label.

My god, you and zeed are hanging onto this comment like a black pastor said it....:lol

I explained it earlier : It doesn't fucking matter.

The argument applies to anyone person that feels threatened enough by AA to fight against it, even if they claim to be oh so non-bigoted.

I assume that you are white or asian, but you could be fucking martian, once again, it doesn't mean anything. I'm arguing a stance, not an identity of an anonymous internet poster.

 

[Tamanon]

I agree somewhat with the beginning (However, we also need to understand the wealth inequality, something that I myself have no answer for), however, the bolded is bullshit, and will be bullshit until their is no correlation between races and poverty. It's still about race...if you handpicked random individuals off the street, and you were made to simply guess their socio-economic situation, your BEST determinent would be their race.

Your bolded statement won't be true until this test can best be completed by random guesses, and we are FAAAR from that.

Well it certainly is possible through analysis of family net worth, income and schooling. Of course before implementing a new system you have to come up with a way to measure it so that it can be effectively implemented, that's par for the course.

 

[WickedAngel]

Tough luck buddy, you're just going to have to live with Affirmative Action hiring all these unqualified minorities...don't know what to tell ya......:lol :lol :lol

Due to the gross application of the policy as a whole, it looks like we won't have to deal with it.

Just because nobody is vocally supporting the trashing of opportunity for the poorest in the country doesn't mean that they're not taking a de facto pro-racist position. I'm not saying everyone is about to don a hood here in this thread (although I'm not so sure about Absinthe with his 'tough shit' stance) but essentially people want to remove the "pure luck" factor that comes with affirmative action without replacing it.

There is nothing racist about contesting the ridiculous notion that one race should have to be disadvantaged in order to help another and that disadvantaging one is the only way that it can happen. People want fairness and there is nothing fair about a system that could potentially help a wealthy minority student based on his skin color while disadvantaging a white person on the same basis.

edit: Ugh. i'm having flashbcks to college. I'm done with this debate. you guys do what you want... i'm of little consequence. you're right, absinthe. black people suck and don't deserve anything from white people. let them take it in the ass. i'm sure it'll work out well for white people everywhere... give blacks a reason to express their rage in more than words. let me know how it goes. *rolls eyes*

That really isn't what he said at all and if that's the best you can do, you really should stay the fuck out of these types of discussions.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

Giving people a certain free pass because they were dealt a bad hand in life is silly.

 

[whytemyke]

First I'm a Canuck, but are poor schools and neighborhoods really that bad that they don't have a library or there is no way for a kid to find one. What are these mysterious tools that you need to present yourself to a college? It's an application form is it not? This seriously sounds hard to believe. The only tools I needed to present myself to college was a pen a piece of paper and a stamp.

Most inner city school students have never even been on the internet. They use textbooks that are from before the end of the cold war. I'm not saying that we have to make these schools sanctuaries of intellect, but surely people can get on board with the idea that people who are using social studies books referring to the USSR as our biggest enemies are probably not going to be as well prepared to take on the world, ergo get into college, as people who have at least been reading stuff from sometime this millenium.

 

[Tristam]

Uh, what? The past is a legitimate reason that they are "down". To claim otherwise flies in the face of both fact and logic.


No, see, here's another problem. You all keep thinking in terms of race - In your world, everything needs to be proportional according to race. In mine, everything should be based on merit. Give everyone as equal a footing as possible, and then let shit sort itself out. That's how it should be.

The minute you start saying "so and so is making too much money for an {insert race here}" you have racial oppression all over again.

That was the goal of affirmative action when it was first instituted -- to level the playing field for traditionally oppressed minorities.

That's all I'm going to say because I'm undecided on the issue.

 

[harSon]

First I'm a Canuck, but are poor schools and neighborhoods really that bad that they don't have a library or there is no way for a kid to find one. What are these mysterious tools that you need to present yourself to a college? It's an application form is it not? This seriously sounds hard to believe. The only tools I needed to present myself to college was a pen a piece of paper and a stamp.

A sense of danger at home or at school due to living in a horrible neighborhood?

Unqualified teachers from the bottom of the cesspool?

Student's having to work (or drop out of school) to help their family make ends meat?

Students not being able to take home books because the school cannot afford adequate amounts of books?

Children having no example of success due to their parents (or parent) going through the problems listed above?

etc.

 

[WickedAngel]

Yeah, it's all the fault of single parents. Get married, hippies!

40 years? That should be enough to get over 500 years of institutionalized racism, if you ask me.

This argument implies that blacks are slowly, but steadily, pulling themselves into a better situation when the reality is that things are getting worse for them, not better.

*Edit*

Not worse than they had it during the times of institutionalized racism, mind you, but in terms of forward momentum that they have built since the civil rights movement.

 

[harSon]

Giving people a certain free pass because they were dealt a bad hand in life is silly.

A free pass? Do you think colleges are handing out acceptance letters to 2.0 students? :lol

 

[whytemyke]

Giving people a certain free pass because they were dealt a bad hand in life is silly.

No worse than giving people a free pass because they were dealt a good hand, and that happens all the time.


It goes back to basic sociological principles. You can't expect a governing body to rule fairly (which despite how hard people like you try is still the premise upon which this country was designed, if not enacted) when it ignores the greatest problems in it's communities. You rule with a veil of ignorance, on the assumption that when someone is born you have no clue who they are or what they're capable of. NOT institutionalizing some sort of remedy is essentially recreating an aristocracy, which, as I have stipulated before doesn't generally work out, historically, for those in said social class. I mean, seriously, show me an aristocracy that didn't result with peoples heads on pikes.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

A free pass? Do you think colleges are handing out acceptance letters to 2.0 students? :lol

Athletes, without question.

 

[harSon]

Athletes, without question.

And? That's not a matter of affirmative action...

 

[Tamanon]

Athletes, without question.

That has absolutely nothing to do with affirmative action whatsoever.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

That has absolutely nothing to do with affirmative action whatsoever.

I know it doesn't. Didn't say it did. He asked me if colleges handed out acceptance letter to 2.0 students. Yes, yes they do.

This is purely anecdotal, but one of my friends works in admissions at my university. She said that african american students are accepted more readily and with lower GPAs, SAT scores, and extracurricular activities. I don't see how this is remotely fair. The school goes out of its way to diversify things but they're only accepting subpar students.

 

[harSon]

And my question was towards your statement that was about affirmative action.