Affirmative action ban heads for ballot in 5 states
- Thread starter CrushDance
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Exactly. No one should care whether there is affirmative action at the university level. A college education, any college education, is an instant ticket to not just the middle, but the upper class. I went to a school that admits every single person who applies, and immediately after graduation was in the top 30% of wage earners. And it was easy.plovie said:
The real issue is the primary school system is not preparing everyone to go to college. And that needs a lot more than affirmative action to fix. Everyone else that had access to a good K-12 education and is still poor is either lazy, inherently stupid, or made some very bad decisions.
Kitschkraft
Member
Zeed said:
I think that you're a sensative fucking child that is more worried about trying to pretend that you are on the defensive than have a (heated) discussion on the topic.
You've been sniveling ever since I made the pie comment, going as far to cherry pick and focus on my usage of the word "ilk".
I don't know you and I have no recollection of ever having encountered you before on gaf. I have no real standing to call you a racist or not. However, you claimed to be some sort of champion when it comes to fairness on racial issues, and I'm sorry if this is too much for you to handle, but I can't see someone taking your stance on AA and still having the standing to make that case for oneself.
I was the one trying to deconstruct the meaning of "racism" just fucking two pages ago! I stated clearly that I don't even like using the term...racism is a systematic thing! I don't care about you as an individual, I care about the mindshare of the country!
I was clearly joking....I was just using the same argument that many others use when it comes to blacks and poverty....you yourself argued against that "tough lick" attitude and I actually respected it.
What?
You said something about "yellow and brown minorities are discriminated because they aren't black" and I was pointing out the hispanics, amongst other groups (White women), are also benefitted by AA. For you to pin the entire system on blacks is indeed kidding yourself.
I have no idea how you could conclude that from everything I've said or from that specific post in general. My immigrant story was just in counter to your story about immigrants not getting a shot....I was pointing out the irrelevancy in personal ancedotes. For the final time, AA is about group inequality...
harSon said:
That starts with the area itself, not the school. No teacher wants to teach in a place where the kids are known as problems and the pay is less. Like if you were an LA County teacher and they laid you off so that LA could hire more cops, what's your incentive to try and go back in there to teach?
Kitschkraft
Member
plovie said:
I've been busy with other lines of thought but this fucking "Blacks should just settle" attitude needs to come to a fucking hault.
We are not second tier citizens, we are not greatful for everything just because it's better then Africa, we do not expect anything less then what whites and other have, and we are not going to stop striving for anything other then what the richest and most successful people in this country have attained.
Note to everyone : We want our slice of the cake and we want to eat it too. I know it may sound crazy, blacks fighting for equality and all, but it's not just some urban legend.
Considering the amount of poor people I know that worked their ass off and are now extremely well off.
People that came to this country with not a cent in their pocket and thousands in debt. People that lived with 3 other families cramped inside a tiny apartment while their parents work 16 hours a day 6 days a week. People that go to these "poor" schools and end up at top colleges even though AA screws with them. People that never got help from their parents with homework cause their parents can't speak English. People that had to work when they were a teenager every day after school.
I have no sympathy at all for poor people who stay poor, because the success rate of these poor people I know are near 100 percent.
Sure this is mostly one group that over comes all this crap but hey if one race can do it then why can't others.
People that came to this country with not a cent in their pocket and thousands in debt. People that lived with 3 other families cramped inside a tiny apartment while their parents work 16 hours a day 6 days a week. People that go to these "poor" schools and end up at top colleges even though AA screws with them. People that never got help from their parents with homework cause their parents can't speak English. People that had to work when they were a teenager every day after school.
I have no sympathy at all for poor people who stay poor, because the success rate of these poor people I know are near 100 percent.
Sure this is mostly one group that over comes all this crap but hey if one race can do it then why can't others.
Kitschkraft
Member
harSon said:
Agreed 100 percent.
Enough of the fucking "Well, I know so and so that..." and "Man, some people can do it, why can't you?" bullshit. There is plenty of BA's that have risen above, I just got done reading this book "We Beat The Streets" by these could of doctors that did exactly what these people are talking about. Believe it or not, there is also some immigrants that come here and end up never accomplishing what they had set out to do, shit happens.
This is a true double standard. Blacks have the shittiest situation, so people tell us to be supermen and have some sort of God like community organization to overcome. It's fucking nonsense, get off your fucking high horses and realize that we are not talking about some shit in a movie or a videogame, this is real life with real people where environments practically breed negativity and sometimes, people just don't have what it takes to get themselves out of the situation they were placed in. Man, it's fucking EASY to win, ANYBODY can win, it's hard to lose (Thank you scanner darkly).
harSon said:
So then how would you fix it? Let's say you have full control over the budget. Would you pay teachers more without first trying to improve the area, and hope that their teaching doesn't fall on deaf ears? Or would you let police department actually police and clean up the city/county first, at the sacrifice of maybe a few people get racially profiled or whatever?
Liara T'Soni said:
You can carry yourself however you want to. If you choose to feel that you're defeated before you even try, that's the wrong attitude. If you are busy worrying about what some other guy that you don't, instead of appreciating what you do have, that's the wrong attitude. It's very easy to sit around and be self-hating, but in the end it all boils down to the individual doing what they gotta do to improve their situation.
If your area is shitty, move. Is that financially easy to do in most cases? No. But if you really hate your situation that bad, you'd leave. And how do you do it? You get the hell up and do it. And if that's too hard and you can't do it... then you must like it, or you'd change it.
Kitschkraft
Member
Zeed said:
Whoever you were talking about, there is a large amount of people that are targeted for AA, and it's not just blacks.
This is untrue. Go to the admissions websites of the most selective colleges in the US, the Harvards and Stanfords, Yale and Princeton, etc. and you will see that usually 35-40% of their students come from private high schools, which have high school tuitions between $25,000-40,000, when about 90% of all high school students in the U.S. go to public high schools. I went to one of these schools and it was about 40% private schoolers--a student whose parents spent ~$120,000 for high school is going to have had a ton of resources which helped them get successful. I will admit that it is getting better year by year, but I still find it funny when they brag about how "more than half" are from public schools--while true, it still means that they are under-represented.darscot said:
Edit: And I'm sure it goes without saying, a large percentage of those from public schools come from public schools located in wealthy suburbs/regions.
Kitschkraft
Member
bjork said:
Honestly, I understand where people like Zeed are coming from, nobody wants to get accused of anything that they are not, but when you make statements like this, I can't help but think that the person spewing such nonsense is doing so from a prejudiced perspective.
I have no idea how you could even be on this train of thought, honestly, it sounds like some shit Pat Buchanan would think of.
And to answer the question, no, hell fucking no. Once again, get it out of your head that we should be forced to settle for anything, we are American citizens, and are as organic to this country as any white person, we should not have to be subjected to police brutality and profiling to gain what has been held from us for fucking centuries.
Edit : For the record, I WOULD make sure that these schools were disciplined as all hell. From a YOUNG age, too. The first thing I would personally do would be to buy sets of school uniforms for every child (Get rid of this fucking matierialist bullshit that I see is rampent in poor black communities where it should be the least welcome), this would be in conjunction with more money towards the schools and the teachers themselves.
Liara T'Soni said:
If there's an area that needs cleaned up, it needs cleaned up regardless of who is causing the problems.
Liara T'Soni said:
This isn't exclusive to the black communities, just so you know. But I agree about uniforms tbh. The problem is that what happens after school. It's just as easy to cause trouble in a uniform as it is without.
Your line about "people that are the most successful." We're in a thread about colleges and education. These schools are viewed worldwide as where the most successful people attend, and most of the most prominent Nobel prize winners, politicians, lawyers, doctors, etc go to these institutions for education. Even Barack Obama, who talks about his atypical position of prominence, had the fortune to attend an expensive private high school and then go onto Ivy League educations at Columbia and Harvard.darscot said:
numble said:
Give me a fucking break, your reading that shit of a pamphlet? You in know way need to go some Ivy League bullshit school to be successful. People that are the most successful overcome they never listen to the people that tell them they can't do it. Those schools are in know way viewed world wide as were the most successful people attend. Why do you Yanks always think US = Globe.
P.S. You know what a college education gets most people. One job, yes that's right it gets you one fucking job. After that nobody gives a shit. It's what have you done not were did you go to school.
perfectchaos007
Member
FINALLY! Affirmative action IS racism. People are starting to finally get it! As a white male, I get NOTHING as of now. I want the same opportunity as a Jewish black woman with native american heritage.
Affirmative action isn't racism it's to curb the pervasive racist elements that exist in our society. The day sexism, genderism, and racism are severely lessened in this country which is basically a cold day in hell so to say then we can get rid of.
perfectchaos007 when your culture as a whole not rare examples of individuals owns up to the fact the system heavily favored their kind and people were robbed of opportunties and when a bulk of individuals get over their bigotry I see your point. Think of affirmative action as karma payment for what some of your ancesotrs and people in the present still practice heavily today.
perfectchaos007 when your culture as a whole not rare examples of individuals owns up to the fact the system heavily favored their kind and people were robbed of opportunties and when a bulk of individuals get over their bigotry I see your point. Think of affirmative action as karma payment for what some of your ancesotrs and people in the present still practice heavily today.
Pudding Tame
Member
ccbfan said:
Simple answer is that immigrant communities have a stronger family and community make-up that aids a good deal in helping keep their members in line and on the straight and narrow while improving the chances of success for the next generation, especially within that community.
Now compare that to a community that over the past 60 years has had almost every track to success destroyed either by overt, covert, and institutional racism and the effect it has had on not only to destroy communities, but the family dynamic of those in that community as well.
perfectchaos007
Member
LCGeek said:
Yeah, but when are we done "paying"? I think we eliminated slavery over 140 years ago, and its been even longer since we stole native american land. Don't you think 100+ years of "paying back" is enough? Aren't we even now?
perfectchaos007 said:
What do you feel that your culture paid back?
Giving my ethnic group rights that wer suppose to be guranteed to us by the original consitution. How about only giving civil rights in the last what 40, 60 years? How about parents raising kids their own to fear aspects my culture that really only a few identify by. Do you approve of white owned congolmerates who sponsor and are the main source for gangsta rap?
Yes your culture stole native american also asian and mexican or largely dominated by the culture in various way. My group isn't the only effected by what I call the racist caucasian establishment that is still in much of power in this country.
Not to say you're racist or that your part of it but how society would label us you may fall under what is termed white or caucasian which is really an oxymoron or innaccurate label.
If you truly are for equal opportunity in life putting up with the system as is and then calling for this to stop but no solution to the reason it was created really shows you have no interest in such a thing.
Pudding Tame
Member
bjork said:
I have no idea what you mean by self hating propaganda. Care to explain?
Also here is a little FACT for you guys there are the same and in most cases more whites with subpar credintials than there are minorities. Yet no one says anything to them. Also you all fail to realize that white women benifited the most from affirmative action and they have come to the point where they don't need it anymore.
Pudding Tame said:
The idea that being black is equated with always being poor/always going without/always being oppressed. The posts that inevitably come up in these threads by posters who are black, and come across as defeatist excuses for poor situations.
I think one of the problems with society in general is the way we like to focus on what we don't have, rather than counting our blessings. Individuals can be great if they want to be, or they can be mediocre if they want to be.
HolyStar said:
But is that because of racist hiring practices? Maybe no one else applied because they just assumed they'd be discriminated against, and so the best applicant was some hack white person with insufficient skills.
perfectchaos007
Member
HolyStar said:
Yep, All they need now is the Sexual Harassment Panda
WickedAngel
Banned
HolyStar said:
...which is irrelevant unless you can show that a significant number of black students are putting forth the effort that would be required to get into college and are getting declined in percentages above the standard norm. It isn't our responsibility to make them get their lives together and aim for a future that falls beyond the realm of mediocrity. They have to want that for themselves, and if they want it, they have to earn it just like everyone else. Everyone will have a different level of difficulty in their pursuit to claim what they want; that's life and there isn't any way to fix that without discriminating against someone else.
People throw statistics like that around and look for anything to blame so long as it isn't the individuals who are having problems in the first place. There is something wrong when your first response to failure is a scramble to find a scapegoat to pass it off on. It's not their fault, it's poverty. It's not their fault, it's a history of institutionalized racism. It's not their fault, it's the disparity in the distribution of wealth. When does it come time to realize that nobody is responsible for your success except for you? You look at grad school participation ratings, see the low minority involvement, and wonder what the grad school is doing to discriminate against minorities. I look at it and wonder why more minorities aren't applying.
Equal opportunities aren't what are being sought here. People are advocating discrimination and racism as some sort of half-assed, karmic "payback" for injustices that their older relatives had to endure.
bjork said:
Look its not that I am for AA, I am black and have excellent stats/extracurrculars and a 36on the MCAT. Infact, I hate the thought of someone thinking "I bet he got to this medschool because he is black". And I know that being a white person with the same stats could be rejected across the board from medical schools. Which I find to be ridiculous. I just find it fascinating that AA threads always turn into a black vs. white debate.
WickedAngel said:
Okay so by going by that logic. No one should complain about AA.
WickedAngel
Banned
HolyStar said:
I have no problem with implementing a system that will be guaranteed to help people in need. Not because of their history or because of their skin color, but because they need help now. It bothers me when people act like they are owed a free ride at the cost of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the problems that their ancestors faced.
Stinkles said:
I wasn't aware that poverty was exclusive to minorities. Thanks for letting me know.
*Edit*
And you know, what good is AA going to do if it is nearly impossible for disadvantaged black people to get out of their current situation (As some have been arguing)? The only people it would really help are the black people that are already in a position to go to college anyways (Middle-class black people). AA doesn't magically lift you out of poverty and place you in an Ivy League school; in order to benefit from AA, you would already have had to pull yourself out of the ghetto in order to get into a position to apply for college or an important job. The people that escape poverty don't do it via handouts; they do it via hard work.
way more
Member
Stinkles said:
I posed this question earlier when I said what if we had socioeconomic AA and the boundaries of those who qualified remained virtually unchanged. I don't think it would be that hard to find all those Harvard legacy black families and tell them they wouldn't be accepted.
People are getting riled up at this quote but remember the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? While some people were pointing out the racism in the lack of support the victims were getting apologists were saying that it wasn't racism, it was economics! The fact that the majority of poor people were black was just a crazy coincidence.
WickedAngel said:
AA is designed, rightly or wrongly, to address poverty tied to race with the assumption that race is inherently an imbalanced factor in US hiring decisions. It is not designed to address "generic" poverty.
I don't know if AA is right or wrong, and its implementation is certainly open to investigation, but pretending that all poor people have an equal shot at the American dream ignores some nasty realities.
darscot said:
That first job is a pretty big thing, however. Take the field of law: the top "big law" firms, where the starting salary generally is $160,000 (not including bonuses) for first year associates, recruit almost exclusively from just 14-18 schools. As for jobs down the line, big corporations generally recruit their in-house lawyers from these "big law" firms. If you want to be a judge or professor, you're even more limited to probably 5-8 schools where you can come from. Now of course you can be "successful" in other contexts from other schools, but that argument in and of itself is pretty useless--the point is that you will be shut out of certain positions if you aren't able to get into certain schools, and you will be more likely to get into these schools if you had a certain background. Considering how law shapes US society so much, from ending segregation, allowing/denying gay marriage, permitting abortion, deciding elections, etc. it should merit some thought, rather than be dismissed as "Bah, you can be successful going somewhere else!"
bjork said:
Sort of missing the point
The apathy for the culture as a whole to fix the problems still exist and are what is the issue. All parties are guilty for not truly compromising and having a discussion but saying nothing's wrong when clearly things are is just disingenous, not specifically saying your the problem or even are rather elements of cultures we unfortunately will be labeled as are the problem.
Regardless of whether we are individuals in the bigger picture of society or color is how a lot identify us at a basic level. Till the notion of race is outright killed by science around the world the problems of division used by some in all culture and ethnic to keep people seperated we can't really move forward on subjects like these.
my reply is not to single out any members rather to go after a culture attitude of I didn't do so why should I bother or why are these laws still in place. That's apathy and I find it worse than actual racism or bigotry because you sit on pedestal say your one thing while allowing behavior to continue to exist, which even I am guilty of to some effect. Enabling a behavior to exist, saying a law should go, but not fix the issue the law is attempting to resolve is bit tragic. In the big picture if you truly don't wish for any kind of hostile and intolerant behavior towards others you should at the very least be willing to call the bs from all angles including your own.
RiskyChris
Banned
LCGeek said:
You're missing the other side's point.
A sizable group of people do not want to be punished for the actions of others. Things like AA punish good people for the racist acts of other people (even if the offenders are a huge group of the current/past population).
This bothers a lot of people.
LCGeek said:
But isn't accusing some random whitey of having ties to slavery without knowing his family's history the same as me seeing some black guy and assuming he's some criminal? Racism works all ways including against the evil white devil, so I wasn't missing the point, just pointing out how one-sided this stuff can get.
The problem is that there's some people who will never see any sort of "making up for it" as enough, and even if some miraculous situation came about where everyone truly saw themselves as equal, people would still suspect that it somehow was made to benefit the white man or whatever.
I think self-segregation is a problem, and keeping with one's kind is another problem, but if the ideal is to get us all on the same page as a like-minded chain of communities, I don't know how that's done. Law changes or not.
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