Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. |OT| Tahiti is a Magical Place (to...Hey guys, I found it!)

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N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
WS Spoilers:
I really hope they have Fury show up in 'incognito' disguise from the end of the film to clear up the alien and give Coulson his standing orders to destroy Hydra.

Hours Left said:
He's made almost zero impression on me. The only thing I remember is that he likes Simmons.

If he's gonna stick around, I hope they give him some oomph.
Click to expand...

Simmons wants him bad.
 
Fnord

Fnord

Member
Having seen all the spoilered text (didn't read any of it) and commentary that events in TWS would affect AoS, but not dramatically, AND just walked in from seeing TWS, I have to ask... How is it remotely possible that the events in TWS won't have a dramatic and profound effect on AoS?!?!

TWS was awesome, btw.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
So how would you guys have spiced up the first half of the season, taking into account both movie tie ins anchoring the story?

Seems like a lot of the revelations make sense later in the season. Not defending them back-loading the season really, but I don't know what else they could have done the first half with the budget aside from maybe exploring the internal structure of S.H.I.E.L.D. more. Starting it later doesn't solve anything either.
 
N

neoanarch

Member
No, bad writing isn't excused because they couldn't reveal the TWS plot. Bad writing is bad writing and thats what was wrong with the first half, and the second half has still been suffering from the writing. Its just covered up with more action.


Zen said:
The guards who were attempting to kill them as well? Yes, they straight up murdered the armed guards who refused to give them medical aid, would not stand down, and attempted to kill them after repeated attempts from Coulson and co to get them to stop and de-escalate the situation. Come on now, get some perspective.
Click to expand...

The guards have no reason to trust anything Coulson says. They are guarding a top secret base only known to a few individuals and those individuals have a code. Anyone who shows up breaks in to steal those secrets is not only a threat but the bad guy in whatever scenario you could put them in. You don't excuse a bank robber when he kills the guards because he was doing it to save his son. But the thing that bugs me about the entire this isn't the morality or lack of of the crew. But how badly written the entire thing is, they could have gone in and done it non-lethal and then pulled the guards out at the end. That not only would have been better IMO but shown just how far better these characters are suppose to be than anyone else.
 
R

Razgriz-Specter

Member
enzo_gt said:
So how would you guys have spiced up the first half of the season, taking into account both movie tie ins anchoring the story?

Seems like a lot of the revelations make sense later in the season. Not defending them back-loading the season really, but I don't know what else they could have done the first half with the budget aside from maybe exploring the internal structure of S.H.I.E.L.D. more. Starting it later doesn't solve anything either.
Click to expand...

Not have dragged the Coulson thing out for sooo long if they knew they had major stuff like this soon afterwards.

Sif episode should have been much sooner.

anything at all to make Ward interesting.

One full episode with Maria Hill. Cobie Smulders couldn't possibly cost as much as Bill Paxton is costing, could she?
 
A

anaron

Member
Better cinematography, direction, editing, fight choreography. Less irritating "HAHA battle of New York! HAHA I died! HAHA We're in the Marvel cinematic universe!" Forced character moments, a score that isn't terribly sound edited.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
neoanarch said:
The guards have no reason to trust anything Coulson says. They are guarding a top secret base only known to a few individuals and those individuals have a code. Anyone who shows up breaks in to steal those secrets is not only a threat but the bad guy in whatever scenario you could put them in. You don't excuse a bank robber when he kills the guards because he was doing it to save his son. But the thing that bugs me about the entire this isn't the morality or lack of of the crew. But how badly written the entire thing is, they could have gone in and done it non-lethal and then pulled the guards out at the end. That not only would have been better IMO but shown just how far better these characters are suppose to be than anyone else.
Click to expand...

You would figure that once Coulson and co were inside in that dark room and were still pleading for the security to stop because they had an injured person who required medical aid, they might have gotten the clue that they were not bank robbers, so to say.

The analogy is flawed with the bank robber because Couslon and co were not knowingly committing a felonious act, nor were they taking an obviously poor strategic (robbing a bank? Really?) choice to attempt to save her life. It was literally their own play. They were the equivalent of a group of civilians begging for aid from a military faction in a warzone, aid that could save innocent lives.

While you are right that they could have tried using Icers, they are not nearly as effective as conventional fire arms in that situation, and they did intend to try and save the life of the wounded guard. The key moral distinction you might want to look at that still places our protagonists above those guards they killed, is that had Coulson been in the position of those guards do you really think he would have taken the steps they did? Using lethal force without attempting to ascertain the legitimacy of the intruders, or that he, like them, would have not cared one way or the other?
 
K

kirblar

Member
The most awkward part of the post-TWS AoS is that the best episodes of the show prior to today were the most SHIELD centric.
 
N

neorej

ERMYGERD!
Zen said:
You would figure that once Coulson and co were inside in that dark room and were still pleading for the security to stop because they had an injured person who required medical aid, they might have gotten the clue that they were not bank robbers, so to say.

The analogy is flawed with the bank robber because Couslon and co were not knowingly committing a felonious act, nor were they taking an obviously poor strategic (robbing a bank? Really?) choice to attempt to save her life. It was literally their own play. They were the equivalent of a group of civilians begging for aid from a military faction in a warzone, aid that could save innocent lives.

While you are right that they could have tried using Icers, they are not nearly as effective as conventional fire arms in that situation, and they did intend to try and save the life of the wounded guard. The key moral distinction you might want to look at that still places our protagonists that had Coulson been in the position of those guards, do you really think he would have taken the steps they did? Using lethal force without attempting to ascertain the legitimacy of the intruders, or that he, like them, clearly did not care one way or another.
Click to expand...

Because that injured teammember can in no way be a trick to have the guards lower their defences, right?
 
N

neoanarch

Member
Zen said:
You would figure that once Coulson and co were inside in that dark room and were still pleading for the security to stop because they had an injured person who required medical aid, they might have gotten the clue that they were not bank robbers, so to say.

The analogy is flawed with the bank robber because Couslon and co were not knowingly committing a felonious act, nor were they taking an obviously poor strategic (robbing a bank? Really?) choice to attempt to save her life. It was literally their own play. They were the equivalent of a group of civilians begging for aid from a military faction in a warzone, aid that could save innocent lives.

While you are right that they could have tried using Icers, they are not nearly as effective as conventional fire arms in that situation, and they did intend to try and save the life of the wounded guard. The key moral distinction you might want to look at that still places our protagonists that had Coulson been in the position of those guards, do you really think he would have taken the steps they did? Using lethal force without attempting to ascertain the legitimacy of the intruders, or that he, like them, clearly did not care one way or another.
Click to expand...

The bank analogy was bad. Instead they are guarding a potential nuclear weapon. Yes a nuclear weapon that can save a life, but there isn't ANY reason the guards have to trust Coulsons word about an injured friend. The warzone analogy is really fucking stretching it too. The facility looks like somewhere in the American southwest unless I missed a location name. This was also a SHIELD allied facility at best; at worst for Coulson and Co. just an unlisted actual SHIELD location and personnel.

I also didn't mean icers when i said non-lethal, but that it should have ended with no deaths.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
I have no idea why people are still hung up about the guards.

Coulson and Co breaking in plays little to no role in this. They still tried to talk things to an agreement. The guards fired first and were using lethal force. As such Coulson and Co responded with lethal force.

The only reasonable logic behind the guards firing first in that situation is that they're under orders to kill on sight. And if you're so caught up in morals that Coulson and Co killing the guards bothers you, then you should be even more up in arms about attempting to kill on sight. "Just following orders" shouldn't be enough for you to excuse it.

Also, Coulson's group using lethal force isn't bad writing. If anything it would be bad plotting but it's not even that because it emphasizes the lengths Coulson will go to for his team. He's been non-lethal the entire show but with Skye's life on the line, he uses an us or them mentality and will kill if necessary to save his team.
 
K

kirblar

Member
I have no idea why people are still hung up about the guards.
Click to expand...
Ambiguity freaks some people out. And then leads to people like Loeb pointing to those people and making everything black/white John Cena level-simple stuff.
 
eastx

eastx

Member
Jest Chillin said:
I have no idea why people are still hung up about the guards.
Click to expand...

It's pretty much just Neonarch complaining... Wasn't he originally making the same complaints alongside the guy who got banned?

kirblar said:
Ambiguity freaks some people out. And then leads to people like Loeb pointing to those people and making everything black/white John Cena level-simple stuff.
Click to expand...

Agreed. But that's a shame since the ambiguity actually enriches the story.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
neorej said:
Because that injured teammember can in no way be a trick to have the guards lower their defences, right?
Click to expand...

You are right, and that is something someone like Coulson and his team would have tried to figure out and make a judgement call on, unlike those guards who established that they did not care one way or another when they were suiting up.
 
R

Red Arremer

Member
Fnord said:
events in TWS would affect AoS, but not dramatically, AND just walked in from seeing TWS, I have to ask... How is it remotely possible that the events in TWS won't have a dramatic and profound effect on AoS?!?!
Click to expand...

Who said the effects wouldn't be dramatic? lol
 
D

Dirtyshubb

Member
Jest Chillin said:
I have no idea why people are still hung up about the guards.

Coulson and Co breaking in plays little to no role in this. They still tried to talk things to an agreement. The guards fired first and were using lethal force. As such Coulson and Co responded with lethal force.

The only reasonable logic behind the guards firing first in that situation is that they're under orders to kill on sight. And if you're so caught up in morals that Coulson and Co killing the guards bothers you, then you should be even more up in arms about attempting to kill on sight. "Just following orders" shouldn't be enough for you to excuse it.

Also, Coulson's group using lethal force isn't bad writing. If anything it would be bad plotting but it's not even that because it emphasizes the lengths Coulson will go to for his team. He's been non-lethal the entire show but with Skye's life on the line, he uses an us or them mentality and will kill if necessary to save his team.
Click to expand...
Great point about the fact that people who had a problem with the Shield members should have a bigger problem with the 'kill on sight' orders of the facility.

Honestly, the amount of time Coulson spent trying to calm the situation and assure the guards that their went hostiles was probably the most I have seen in a long time, especially since he was still trying to calm them down while being shot at.

I also agree with the idea that 'grey' characters and actions tend to annoy/confuse most people and thus we get the bland black/white style writing which is terrible overall since it ends up feeling corny.

Im going to see TWS tonight so im just looking forward to the next episode :)
 
X

xenist

Member
Again with the stupid guards?

Skye was dying. They wanted to break into top secret facility to acquire cure. The guards opened fire despite warnings. They shot back. What should they have said? "I guess the guards here mean business. We should let Skye die."

It's called Agents Of Shield, not Non-violent Conflict Resolution. In a show as laden with compromise as this one it feels odd to see people get hung up on this, one of only times they took real action with actual non-reversible results. Are these the same people extrapolating how many people died in Man Of Steel?
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
eastx said:
It's pretty much just Neonarch complaining... Wasn't he originally making the same complaints alongside the guy who got banned?



Agreed. But that's a shame since the ambiguity actually enriches the story.
Click to expand...

Hours Left said:
Yeah, I think the fact that it's ambiguous is what makes it more interesting.
Click to expand...

anaron said:
It's not like SHIELD has ever operated under a strict moral code, either.

But hey, returning fire, that's just crossing the line!
Click to expand...

I watched the episode, and I got no indication that the writers intended Coulson et al.'s actions to play as morally ambiguous. I wish I did, but I think you're giving them too much credit.

Let's not forget that this is the same episode where the agents beat up and tortured a captured prisoner, and two episodes before one where an agent executed a defenseless quadriplegic and the others only had a problem with it because he violated orders.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
xenist said:
Again with the stupid guards?

Skye was dying. They wanted to break into top secret facility to acquire cure. The guards opened fire despite warnings. They shot back. What should they have said? "I guess the guards here mean business. We should let Skye die."

It's called Agents Of Shield, not Non-violent Conflict Resolution. In a show as laden with compromise as this one it feels odd to see people get hung up on this, one of only times they took real action with actual non-reversible results. Are these the same people extrapolating how many people died in Man Of Steel?
Click to expand...

The beef here is that Coulson and his gang try their damnedest not to use lethal force on superpowered killers, yet they had no qualms in blasting those guards nor they cared that much about Ward executing a chair ridden person just because he pressed his buttons.

I've been clamoring for a morally gray SHIELD since the first episode, but it's clear that the writing room doesn't have the talent to pull it off. Their characterization is fucking idiotic.

They went from A-Team to Shield (the actually great show) like no thang. It makes no sense.
 
X

xenist

Member
Funky Papa said:
The beef here is that Coulson and his gang try their damnedest not to use lethal force on superpowered killers, yet they had no qualms in blasting those guards nor they cared that much about Ward executing a chair ridden person just because he pressed his buttons.
Click to expand...

I thought they were all about rounding up people and sending the to The Fridge.

Eh whatever, it's not like I like this show enough to defend it too much.
 
D

Dirtyshubb

Member
Funky Papa said:
The beef here is that Coulson and his gang try their damnedest not to use lethal force on super powered killers, yet they had no qualms in blasting those guards nor they cared that much about Ward executing a chair ridden person just because he pressed his buttons.
Click to expand...
I think people have been over simplifying the situation with regards to this.

Yes, at face value this person is a helpless, disabled person who was no immediate threat to anyone in the room , plus the orders were to take him alive.

What I see however is that this person (They thought at the time at least) is the only known psychic ever, someone who has managed to stay 1 step ahead of SHIELD throughout the entire season, someone who has shown that they have 0 value for life and is willing to do some terrible things to get what they want.
Yes at face value all he did was 'push wards buttons' but in reality this person is one of the most dangerous around because up to that point it would seem that his powers were terrifyingly powerful (Knowing everything from any position in the world) and the threats he was making were not only bad but also very real plus to arrange everything that has happened this season from his chair is also impressive (and scary).

In my mind, yes what Ward did was wrong (As far as orders go) but Ward did what he honestly thought was for the best, that this person was far too dangerous to let live considering their reach and potential abilities and it was clear that no one else was willing to do it.
Plus, it also shows how he has changed as a person during the time of the show, going from emotionless boy scout to a real team player who cares about his team and of course has romantic feelings for Skye who, being her SO, he feels responsible for her, especially after just surviving 2 gunshots to the stomach and only living because of some mysterious medicine that can bring people back from the dead (which also happens to be destroyed as far as they are aware).

In Wards mind, he made the hard decision that no one else would have and in doing so protected his team and agency from someone very powerful.

Of course, this all turned out to be nothing as it now seems to be a mole instead of a psychic but with the information that Ward had at the time he did what he thought was best and I can't really fault him on it too much.
 
The Elite

The Elite

BOSS
Captain America: Winter Soldier SPOILERS:

Agents of ________ [OT] Thanks a fucking lot, Captain America!

I was about to post this without a spoiler tag. :/
 
H

HeySeuss

Member
So now that
Hydra
is involved, can we reason that they were who was in control of the base where the alien was held? It would make sense that Fury had found out about it and used that knowledge as leverage to save Coulson to begin with.
 
P

Pai Pai Master

Banned
HeySeuss said:
So now that
Hydra
is involved, can we reason that they were who was in control of the base where the alien was held? It would make sense that Fury had found out about it and used that knowledge as leverage to save Coulson to begin with.
Click to expand...

Only Fury and the medical staff involved in Coulson's resurrection knew about the base. It was very much hidden within his files so there's no telling yet if
HYDRA
knew about it as well. If I had to guess,
Fury kept it off the grid intentionally as he knew something was up. He may have even ordered the guards to not trust anyone and kill on sight, not knowing that it would be Coulson's team showing up to save a dying member. I am really hoping Fury makes at least one appearance before the end of the season to explain himself to Coulson...
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
HeySeuss said:
So now that
Hydra
is involved, can we reason that they were who was in control of the base where the alien was held? It would make sense that Fury had found out about it and used that knowledge as leverage to save Coulson to begin with.
Click to expand...

See! They were right to murder the "innocent" guards! TWS Spoilers:
HAIL HYDRA!
 
I

inky

Member
kirblar said:
Ambiguity freaks some people out. And then leads to people like Loeb pointing to those people and making everything black/white John Cena level-simple stuff.
Click to expand...

I kinda get why people are hung up on that. This is the show that has "bad-ass" agents armed with toys, and calls them "night night guns" after all, so it is not like the show has always been swimming in moral grey area in terms of killing people.

As with many things in this show, it boils down more to shoddy execution than a "character betrayal" or other such non-sense people bring up regarding that scene. They were clearly trying to explain why lethal force was justified. They used people dying to cover up this big secret (which is indeed kind of a big deal in the grand scheme of things actually) as a way of giving weight to the actions and consequences of such actions.

Of course all these things kind of fell flat because the show has been pretty incompetent at many things, so people just get hung up on things that make no sense, perhaps not for the right reasons.

But yes, at some point people have to let that go. It's over. Done. And Thor didn't show up in Iron Man 3 and Hulk didn't either in Cap 2. Move the fuck on.
 
F

fallengorn

Bitches love smiley faces
Pai Pai Master said:
Only Fury and the medical staff involved in Coulson's resurrection knew about the base. It was very much hidden within his files so there's no telling yet if
HYDRA
knew about it as well. If I had to guess,
Fury kept it off the grid intentionally as he knew something was up.
Click to expand...

At this point I'm going to guess that
Coulson was one of the only agents he could trust. So he gets an idea to resurrect him and have him form his own unit so Fury could count on some support if the shit hit the fan.
Yeah, that still doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, but I'm guessing that's where it's headed..
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
fallengorn said:
At this point I'm going to guess that
Coulson was one of the only agents he could trust. So he gets an idea to resurrect him and have him form his own unit so Fury could count on some support if the shit hit the fan.
Yeah, that still doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, but I'm guessing that's where it's headed..
Click to expand...

I would be okay with this explanation, seriously.
 
B

BlackNMild2k1

Member
fallengorn said:
At this point I'm going to guess that
Coulson was one of the only agents he could trust. So he gets an idea to resurrect him and have him form his own unit so Fury could count on some support if the shit hit the fan.
Yeah, that still doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, but I'm guessing that's where it's headed..
Click to expand...

That's the explanation I've been thinking and makes sense to me.
would actually explain the "low importance" missions in the beginning. Just keeping them away from usual SHIELD activities and away from SHIELD bases. Minimal interaction, basically insulating his private team.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
fallengorn said:
At this point I'm going to guess that
Coulson was one of the only agents he could trust. So he gets an idea to resurrect him and have him form his own unit so Fury could count on some support if the shit hit the fan.
Yeah, that still doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, but I'm guessing that's where it's headed..
Click to expand...

That's pretty much my guess, too. It would certainly explain why there's been no real rationale offered yet for Coulson having his own plane and his own semi-autonomous team beyond "because Fury said so."
 
F

fallengorn

Bitches love smiley faces
The only way I'd be satisfied with that is
if they made it personal for Fury as in he just likes Coulson and didn't want to see him die. Otherwise, I have a hard time believing he'd go through such an arduous process (Secret bases, covering his tracks, a week(?) long procedure) just to set up a 5/6 person team. It'd be easier just to vet and recruit outside people like his Secret Warriors.

Cornballer said:
Interesting:
Click to expand...

Guessing they're tightly related. I remember someone here guessing that the next episode is concurrent with TWS and the episode after is actually post-TWS. That could be the case.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
I still like the theory that the facility is
a S.W.O.R.D. facility. Alien species, "Guest House," and the fact that S.W.O.R.D. is a Whedon created organization make me think that's what it is. They were also mentioned in a deleted scene for the first Thor I think?
 
C

Cornballer

Member
fallengorn said:
Guessing they're tightly related. I remember someone here guessing that the next episode is concurrent with TWS and the episode after is actually post-TWS. That could be the case.
Click to expand...
That would make sense along with testing the waters for a different time slot. I'm very curious to see the ratings this week since I don't know what kind of bump, if any, TWS is going to provide.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
fallengorn said:
The only way I'd be satisfied with that is
if they made it personal for Fury as in he just likes Coulson and didn't want to see him die. Otherwise, I have a hard time believing he'd go through such an arduous process (Secret bases, covering his tracks, a week(?) long procedure) just to set up a 5/6 person team. It'd be easier just to vet and recruit outside people like his Secret Warriors.
Click to expand...

Well, if they go in that direction, it'll hopefully be established that
Coulson's team wasn't Fury's only backup plan.
 
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