Support NeoGAF

[Jaysen]

I mentioned nothing about "political history," and the same could be said for those absolving the last man to hold a gun who should have followed proper firearm safety pointed out by not only myself, but movie industry experts in what their usual protocols are in post #202

My whole argument, is that he is the last to hold the gun, he is responsible for following firearm safety 101. The same way any normie outside of hOlLyWoOd would be held accountable for.

That is LITERAL firearm safety 101. The basis of my argument is that very foundation, regardless of who the person is.

How do you know he didn’t? On a movie like John Wick, do you think it’s the job of all the extras and actors to personally check every gun and the blanks loaded within them? Because that’s straight up stupid.

 

[DeepEnigma]

How do you know he didn’t?

Clearly he didn't or he would have not pointed it directly at the person, nor should the people have been behind camera in the post I referenced as outlined by these very people in Hollywood.

I also check all firearms handed to me to see if they are loaded while pointing them in a safe direction. That is firearm safety 101.

Alec Baldwin Kills Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins With Prop Gun

He seemingly is refusing to take responsibility for proper gun safety. The prop guy and site GM will take the fall for him quite literally not following firearm safety 101. are you saying the prop team is not responsible? Normally a gun is pointed at the cameraman, so how does that fit your...

www.neogaf.com

Their number one rule, which is the number one rule in all firearm safety.

 

[Gp1]

Around 10min they discuss how the blank cartridge load works

 

[jason10mm]

How do you know he didn’t? On a movie like John Wick, do you think it’s the job of all the extras and actors to personally check every gun and the blanks loaded within them? Because that’s straight up stupid.

ABSOLUTELY YES!! If they are not competent to verify that the weapon handed to them is or is not a danger to themselves or others then they have no business being on set. Do you think they just hand out knives, swords, axes, bows and arrows, guns, or whatever to all the extras and say "go wild boys!!". NFW. All of those people, even if they are the background, are supposed to be professionals.

If they KNOW the gun is gonna go bang then YES, the actor should also verify for themselves after being trained how to do so, and then conduct themselves as safely as possible. You make it sound like this was the first time Alec has ever been around a gun on set or something.

This MIGHT have been a tragic accident with no responsibility on Alec, but since he was the one to pull the trigger it is reasonable to wonder what he did to the SECOND on that set that day (was he drinking before the shot, etc). That is the standard the rest of us would have been held to, he doesn't get an automatic pass just because someone else handed him the gun before he played make-believe.

 

[Jaysen]

ABSOLUTELY YES!! If they are not competent to verify that the weapon handed to them is or is not a danger to themselves or others then they have no business being on set. Do you think they just hand out knives, swords, axes, bows and arrows, guns, or whatever to all the extras and say "go wild boys!!". NFW. All of those people, even if they are the background, are supposed to be professionals.

If they KNOW the gun is gonna go bang then YES, the actor should also verify for themselves after being trained how to do so, and then conduct themselves as safely as possible. You make it sound like this was the first time Alec has ever been around a gun on set or something.

This MIGHT have been a tragic accident with no responsibility on Alec, but since he was the one to pull the trigger it is reasonable to wonder what he did to the SECOND on that set that day (was he drinking before the shot, etc). That is the standard the rest of us would have been held to, he doesn't get an automatic pass just because someone else handed him the gun before he played make-believe.

Moronic. You pay an experienced munitions team for a reason. Putting the final fucking responsibility into the hands of actors is one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard.

 

[DeepEnigma]

ABSOLUTELY YES!! If they are not competent to verify that the weapon handed to them is or is not a danger to themselves or others then they have no business being on set. Do you think they just hand out knives, swords, axes, bows and arrows, guns, or whatever to all the extras and say "go wild boys!!". NFW. All of those people, even if they are the background, are supposed to be professionals.

If they KNOW the gun is gonna go bang then YES, the actor should also verify for themselves after being trained how to do so, and then conduct themselves as safely as possible. You make it sound like this was the first time Alec has ever been around a gun on set or something.

This MIGHT have been a tragic accident with no responsibility on Alec, but since he was the one to pull the trigger it is reasonable to wonder what he did to the SECOND on that set that day (was he drinking before the shot, etc). That is the standard the rest of us would have been held to, he doesn't get an automatic pass just because someone else handed him the gun before he played make-believe.

And people throwing around their projection of "politically motivated" can bite the same words by 100% absolving him and trying to blame the props armorer 100%.

My only argument which is as true as the test of time, the last person to handle a firearm according to firearm safety 101, is responsible to handle it safely and responsibly. You never 100% rely on others prior.

Moronic. You pay an experienced munitions team for a reason. Putting the final fucking responsibility into the hands of actors is one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard.

This post is the dumbest thing I ever heard. It is literally FIREARM SAFETY 101. Even those that work in Hollywood in post #202 say that.

Alec Baldwin Kills Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins With Prop Gun

He seemingly is refusing to take responsibility for proper gun safety. The prop guy and site GM will take the fall for him quite literally not following firearm safety 101. are you saying the prop team is not responsible? Normally a gun is pointed at the cameraman, so how does that fit your...

www.neogaf.com

Firearm safety rules do not stop because of hurr durr special actor people.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Alec Baldwin will bounce back fine, he's rich so no chance any serious charges will stick no matter what he actually did, and it's not like he misgendered someone so he can keep working without skipping a beat.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Big yikes, a woof, and a problematic. Of note: Baldwin was a apparently a producer

 

[NecrosaroIII]

ABSOLUTELY YES!! If they are not competent to verify that the weapon handed to them is or is not a danger to themselves or others then they have no business being on set. Do you think they just hand out knives, swords, axes, bows and arrows, guns, or whatever to all the extras and say "go wild boys!!". NFW. All of those people, even if they are the background, are supposed to be professionals.

If they KNOW the gun is gonna go bang then YES, the actor should also verify for themselves after being trained how to do so, and then conduct themselves as safely as possible. You make it sound like this was the first time Alec has ever been around a gun on set or something.

This MIGHT have been a tragic accident with no responsibility on Alec, but since he was the one to pull the trigger it is reasonable to wonder what he did to the SECOND on that set that day (was he drinking before the shot, etc). That is the standard the rest of us would have been held to, he doesn't get an automatic pass just because someone else handed him the gun before he played make-believe.

The daggers used when swinging around are basically soft toys. They only use the nice swords and what not for still shots or close up.

You should check out the LotR extended edition docs. They shed a ton of insight into prop making and general production. It's basically a film making class

 

[Wildebeest]

Yet these actors and actresses, after being handed a prop gun, are asked to point the prop at other actors/actresses/stuntman/camera operator and pull the trigger while being filmed. What about this video I posted? Are all these people negligent, or attempted murderers, for trusting the professional in charge that the gun handed to them is a prop weapon that won't fire and cause harm?

These videos are not safety training videos. For example, In the first video you posted, I do not take the CGI terminators firing at the screen as evidence that the cameraman had a blank firing gun pointed at him and was fine with it.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Big yikes, a woof, and a problematic. Of note: Baldwin was a apparently a producer

Damn, hopefully there was nothing nefarious by a jaded worker. Not that it changes the tragic outcome.

 

[Dr Bass]

And people throwing around their projection of "politically motivated" can bite the same words by 100% absolving him and trying to blame the props armorer 100%.

My only argument which is as true as the test of time, the last person to handle a firearm according to firearm safety 101, is responsible to handle it safely and responsibly. You never 100% rely on others prior.



This post is the dumbest thing I ever heard. It is literally FIREARM SAFETY 101. Even those that work in Hollywood in post #202 say that.

Alec Baldwin Kills Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins With Prop Gun

He seemingly is refusing to take responsibility for proper gun safety. The prop guy and site GM will take the fall for him quite literally not following firearm safety 101. are you saying the prop team is not responsible? Normally a gun is pointed at the cameraman, so how does that fit your...

www.neogaf.com

Firearm safety roles do not stop because of hurr durr special actor people.

This whole thread is so weird to me. Not only the hoops people are trying to jump through to say Baldwin had no culpability, but the vitriol attached to it.

I'm sitting here just thinking "Oh yeah, if he pointed a gun at anyone and pulled a trigger, he clearly has some responsibility." Gun loaded with blanks or not. That's the point. Accidents happen and as you've been saying its one of the first tings they teach you about gun safety. You never point a loaded gun at anyone (unless of course you want to potentially kill that person). You just don't. It just is what it is. Like if you crash your car, and you don't wear a seatbelt, well that is the persons fault who didn't fasten their seatbelt.

No emotion involved.

But the people defending this are coming across a bit unhinged. I don't get it.

Or do I ...

 

[jason10mm]

Moronic. You pay an experienced munitions team for a reason. Putting the final fucking responsibility into the hands of actors is one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard.

I hope I never work with you in any professional capacity then and I hope you have no authority to enact safety procedures for others.

"I was told it was safe but took no action to verify it was" is the hallmark of a failing safety system.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Not sounding good for basically everyone involved

 

[jason10mm]

The daggers used when swinging around are basically soft toys. They only use the nice swords and what not for still shots or close up.

You should check out the LotR extended edition docs. They shed a ton of insight into prop making and general production. It's basically a film making class

And I'm sure every background actor in LOTR was A. given a thorough shake down to ENSURE they had no dangerous items on their person before they walked on set and B. had to PERSONALLY verify that their prop weapon was in fact safe for what they had to do on set. They don't just hand out foam swords to day extras and tell them to bash each other on the head (at least a properly budgeted safe production doesn't).

 

[Lognor]

that’s sort of awkward. maybe he should have been versed and knowledgeable about firearms and he would have avoided this situation.

Hollywood will use this to say even prop guns should be regulated.

checking a chamber and clearing the barrel of obstructions should be obvious even when shooting blanks.

I'm not a gun owner so that's not obvious to me. Baldwin might not be a gun owner either so not sure he would know that.

 

[delirium trigger]

Damn, I guess Hollywood is anti-union when it's there's.

 

[Jaysen]

I hope I never work with you in any professional capacity then and I hope you have no authority to enact safety procedures for others.

"I was told it was safe but took no action to verify it was" is the hallmark of a failing safety system.

If only there was a professional staff of experts maintaining the weapons…

 

[daveonezero]

I'm not a gun owner so that's not obvious to me. Baldwin might not be a gun owner either so not sure he would know that.

Exactly why it is even mor important to know. Whether it is a nerf gun, pellets, air soft etc. It doesn’t matter.

If you ever encounter a gun treat it as a device that destroys anything it is pointed at. For the exact purpose to avoid this threads topic of discussion. People will die.

There are 4 rules of GUN safety (all guns. All firearms. All types of propellant)


The 4 universal rules of gun safety are:

1. Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle point at anything that you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

These should be followed 100% of the time. No matter if it is a toy, decoy, real or prop.

 

[DeepEnigma]

If only there was a professional staff of experts maintaining the weapons…

Which still teach you firearm safety 101, because well, it's their job that they're hired to do. Post #202 outlines this.

Either way, if the tweets are true that were recently posted, those misfires and still being used without thoroughly checking is a big NO NO and falls on everyone involved. Especially the producer and shooter, Alec.

 

[hemo memo]

How? I mean if he shot one I would understand it as an accident but he shot 2 people.

 

[DeepEnigma]

How? I mean if he shot one I would understand it as an accident but he shot 2 people.

Apparently the projectile passed through her and hit the director in the shoulder.

 

[///PATRIOT]

Apparently the projectile passed through her and hit the director in the shoulder.

Must have been a high caliber, since small calibers don't pass through a skull.

 

[jason10mm]

If only there was a professional staff of experts maintaining the weapons…

Let me put up a hypothetical scenario.

You are going on a self guided tour of the Australian outback with your life partner and selected offspring that you care about.

The tour operator, as she hands you the keys, says "I've topped off your petrol, filled the emergency Jerry cans, loaded your water, and replaced the batteries in your sat phone and GPS, off you go!"

Now, if you get out into the middle of the badlands and break an axle and it turns out the water cans are empty and the sat phone is dead so now your family is facing immenent death, how much is it your fault that you didn't "trust but verify" the status of the car before you left? How much solace is your partner gonna give you because it was that damned tour guides fault and she botched the job?

 

[Little Mac]

The 4 universal rules of gun safety are:

1. Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle point at anything that you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

These should be followed 100% of the time. No matter if it is a toy, decoy, real or prop.

Following your rules, everyone in this video, including Keanu Reeves, is what? Criminally negligent? Homocidal?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Must have been a high caliber, since small calibers don't pass through a skull.

If it's a colt style revolver, chances are that it's a high caliber in a 44-40 or 45. Even more modern chambers for .38 special and .357 would do that as well.

 

[Clear]

Not sure if this is true but heard something along the lines of the projectile struck the camera which then deflected and did all the damage. If so, it sounds like a really horrible freak accident.

 

[daveonezero]

Following your rules, everyone in this video, including Keanu Reeves, is what? Criminally negligent? Homocidal?

There are some rare exceptions. Also acting or simmunitions are a thing. They are “willing to destroy” whatever they point the gun at.

Look up the definition for negligence. It can be avoided.

that is why the Baldwin incident is negligent and not an accident.

 

[daveonezero]

Not sure if this is true but heard something along the lines of the projectile struck the camera which then deflected and did all the damage. If so, it sounds like a really horrible freak accident.

Someone forgot to check the thing for projectiles. That is negligence.

 

[jason10mm]

Following your rules, everyone in this video, including Keanu Reeves, is what? Criminally negligent? Homocidal?

Keanu isn't actually in that video you know.

And it shows stuntmen in training and they are using replica weapons for educational purposes on tactics and acting, they are NOT filming an actual movie. I absolutely guarantee that before the day started there was a full "no ammo!" check of everyone and every weapon replica there was carefully inspected by at least 2 people, and then by the actor using it. Plus if you watch carefully, many of them never actually touch the trigger, even when simulating firing. They maintain as many rules as possible, because the intent of the 4 rules is that you can violate 1 and still have a very reduced chance of hurting someone. I bet there is an entire block on "how to actually use a live weapon on set" class that we are not seeing where they learn to offset their aim and other tricks to enhance safety.

 

[Nester99]

Many people can be Negligent for the same act.

 

[delirium trigger]

There were two misfires on the prop gun on Saturday and one the previous week, the person said, adding “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.”

Alec Baldwin 'Rust' camera crew walked off before shooting - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

It's more than an "accident". This is serious negligence.

 

[Jaysen]

Days before Baldwin showed support for the crew against execs who they felt were endangering their lives.



What a disaster for all involved. At least he was on the right side of it before the incident.

 

[Clear]

Michael Malice is brutally, BRUTALLY ripping on Baldwin on Twitter... Holy crap, its like Norm going after OJ on steroids!

Pretty dank stuff, but funny if you can stomach it.

 

[ManaByte]

Michael Malice is brutally, BRUTALLY ripping on Baldwin on Twitter... Holy crap, its like Norm going after OJ on steroids!

Pretty dank stuff, but funny if you can stomach it.

 

[Kimahri]

Michael Malice is brutally, BRUTALLY ripping on Baldwin on Twitter... Holy crap, its like Norm going after OJ on steroids!

Pretty dank stuff, but funny if you can stomach it.

Michael Malice strikes me as the kind of person who masturbates furiously in front of a mirror several times a day.

 

[Azurro]

Moronic. You pay an experienced munitions team for a reason. Putting the final fucking responsibility into the hands of actors is one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard.

I don't think the actors have a license to be irresponsible with something that is built to kill, no matter who they paid to check for safety.

The fact that he absolves himself of any responsibility and laments a tragedy when it seems he deliberately pointed a gun at the director and the DP is sickening. That tweet seems more to cover his own ass than anything related to the family of this poor woman.

But well, Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

 

[jason10mm]

Michael Malice is brutally, BRUTALLY ripping on Baldwin on Twitter... Holy crap, its like Norm going after OJ on steroids!

Pretty dank stuff, but funny if you can stomach it.

Please tell me he didn't post the scene of Sean Connery telling him "schome things here don't react well to bullets", that would be too cruel.

 

[Master Of Illusion]

It takes brass balls to be a DP.

 

[Captain Toad]

I read through a lot of these responses. It sounds like the stuff you'd hear on other sites. People looking for any possible way to villianize the guy. It looks clearly to be an accident, and one that likely is 99% not Baldwin's fault.

The victim's family has stated as much and were the first to vindicate the man, who, like others in this situation, is probably going through the most difficult situation of his life.

Quit salivating over the chance to pull put pitchforks and try to kick someone when they're down.

 

[ManaByte]

Michael Malice is brutally, BRUTALLY ripping on Baldwin on Twitter... Holy crap, its like Norm going after OJ on steroids!

Pretty dank stuff, but funny if you can stomach it.

 

[Kimahri]

I don't think the actors have a license to be irresponsible with something that is built to kill, no matter who they paid to check for safety.

The fact that he absolves himself of any responsibility and laments a tragedy when it seems he deliberately pointed a gun at the director and the DP is sickening. That tweet seems more to cover his own ass than anything related to the family of this poor woman.

But well, Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

How about we just stop acting like we know what went down, yeah? The stuff going on in this thread is precisely the kind of stuff thay creates rumours that spread and then establish themselves as accepted facts even though they might be far removed from the trurh.

Have you ever killed anyone by accident? No? Then maybe be a wee bit on the careful side in assuming what the man is going through.

Additionaly, he put the focus on her and her family, not himself.

 

[Keihart]

if any kind of debris is in the barrel it doesn't matter if it's a blank cartridge. that shit will fly the fuck right out and damage something. for all we know the gun could've been droppped and some tiny stones got inside (and nobody checked/cleaned it). as soon as that blank goes off it will fire those stones right out so it's essentially no different from a real gun at that point. a real bullet is more dangerous but anything fired at you at high velocity can kill you. people have been killed by much lower powered firearms such as bb/air guns which use 6mm bbs (plastic/metal) or .177/.22 pellets.

that's why some blank guns are not front firing. front firing is prefered for movies because it's more realistic and less post production. just like a real gun the gas will escape out the front of the gun so you will see a muzzle flash at the end of the barrel. the barrel is either full width or reduced but again you stick something in there it will fly out in whatever direction you point it. a top firing blank gun has the barrel blocked and when fired the gas will vent upwards and as a result the "muzzle flash" is seen above the gun. you could stick something in the barrel and fire it and if the debris/object came out it would just fall out instead of being fired out.

for safety i think all blank guns should be made top firing. i know front firing is realistic looking but peoples lives are at risk here. with the technology we have surely it wouldn't be too hard to edit the footage to change the location of the flash?

it's saying a prop gun which shouldn't be capable of chambering a live round. if they somehow put a live round in a blank then i reckon the story would've been about how Alec Baldwin now only has one hand and/or is now blind. a live round in a blank is likely gonna explode because either the barrel isn't wide enough for the bullet to exit or the materials of the gun are far weaker and not capable of handling the pressure of a live round. a blank gun when fired the hot gas goes right out but with a live round there is a period of time in which pressure builds up because of the piece of metal (bullet) still being inside the barrel.

Some blank guns, specially semiautomatic ones, are normal guns adapted to shoot blanks AFAIK.
If it was something like a revolver, it could easily have been a normal gun just with a blank in it that they were using, what i find nonsensical it's what is even doing a live round on a movie set.

 

[Marvel]

Clusterfuck.

 

[Keihart]

Look at all these people pointing prop weapons at other people!!! How many counts of attempted murder can you count in this video?

I think Jhon Wick uses mostly gas guns and rubber guns, most of the mussle flashes on the movie are digital.

 

[Azurro]

How about we just stop acting like we know what went down, yeah? The stuff going on in this thread is precisely the kind of stuff thay creates rumours that spread and then establish themselves as accepted facts even though they might be far removed from the trurh.

Have you ever killed anyone by accident? No? Then maybe be a wee bit on the careful side in assuming what the man is going through.

Additionaly, he put the focus on her and her family, not himself.

I mean, we don't have the official story, it's true that it could have been some freak accident, a bullet ricochetted and killed the poor woman, true, many things could have happened. Fair enough.

However, the reason I don't like his public statement is because it drips of being passed by a lawyer, he's distancing himself of any responsibility and declares himself a victim by lamenting the incident as a terrible "accident". That other video being passed of him concerned with security also screams of his PR team putting out some message. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but given how they have people in Hollywood working 100% on artists reputations and such, it is a reasonable take.

He should have just stayed quiet and let the police investigation happen and the family grieve, instead of bringing himself back into the picture this soon just to lament this "accident" that he in passing distances himself from. That's f'ed up.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Jaysen]

Reports now are it was a rehearsal and the armorer called the gun cold. In other words, unloaded. No one expected it was loaded at all. Someone fucked up.

 

[Halo is Back]

I read through a lot of these responses. It sounds like the stuff you'd hear on other sites. People looking for any possible way to villianize the guy. It looks clearly to be an accident, and one that likely is 99% not Baldwin's fault.

The victim's family has stated as much and were the first to vindicate the man, who, like others in this situation, is probably going through the most difficult situation of his life.

Quit salivating over the chance to pull put pitchforks and try to kick someone when they're down.

I agree with everything you said but I only critiqued Alec's involvement because I want everyone in the production room to be more responsible and careful when handling a deadly weapon. This shouldn't keep happening and I hope future production crews learn from this tragic mistake.

 

[Interfectum]