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[-Plasma Reus-]

If a part of the plot was that she took roids to get ripped and Rocky IV Joel to death, I'd actually like that.

 

[Moriah20]

I'm no scriptwriter nor do i claim to know any better than actual professionals, but in my mind the whole "cycle of violence" theme would've worked better if the game is advertised as a brand new adventure from the get go where you play as Abby. She is just a random person in a random group of survivors, there is no connection to the events of TLOU 1. The game proceeds as expected with plenty of zombie killing, resource gathering, conflicts with enemy factions, character development, etc. Then at some point you go after some group of people for whatever reason (say they stole from you), and one of the random npc's that you kill turns out to be Joel. Then, the game just carries on as if nothing happened (From Abby's POV, obviously the player would be shitting themselves) then at some point later Ellie would ambush the player and kill Abby and you take control of Ellie, maybe in a flashback to see what led Joel where he was, and how she reacted to his death, and how it fucked her up. And then end a game with in a meandering, sober manner.

Thing is, based on the current spoilers and timeline of how the events play out in the game, I just can't imagine ever taking a liking to Abby or sympathizing with her in the slightest. Because it reeks of desperation from the writer trying to justify that it was actually OK what they've done because of this clunky connection to TLOU 1 that likely wasn't even considered in the time of TLOU 1's development. But by having the player start playing as her without any sort of connection to the first game, you are given a completely fair chance at taking a liking to her and her friends - and when Ellie would kill them in the end,I imagine a lot of people would feel conflicted about the justification.

 

[DForce]

You said they were forming their opinions off fake leaks, they didn't. They literally say they don't know if Ellie dies or not, Joe GUESSES that this is where the plot will go from what he's seen.

They say that in their video. I don't even know what you're talking about, but it's clearly not worth engaging you.

I watched the entire video about 30 minutes ago. They said it's not confirmed if Ellie dies or not. Joe gave his opinion on what MIGHT happen after that scene. He thinks it's the end because one of the leaks said it.

I don't know why you're trying so hard to misinterpret what they're saying when it's clear they're going off of fake leaks.

 

[Dacon]

Steroids makes your muscles grow. But they don't as far as I know change the skeleton.
Like you know you can easily tell from an old skeleton they dig up at some archeology site if it is a skeleton of a man or a woman.
For example, what is wider, hips or shoulders? One is man the other is woman.

Under all those muscles you can still see where the skeleton is and you can tell if it is a skeleton from XX or from XY.
Sorry.

Some women can naturally just have narrower skeletons than most.

Shit happens, not everyone comes out the same. I remember a girl I went to school with, she was built like a dude, no hips and flat chest.

 

[Cato]

Some women can naturally just have narrower skeletons than most.

Erm, no. Please show some papers that detail this. Or else you mean that the folks at the FBI that identifies the biological sex of skeletons that people find are clueless and are not as well read up as you are?
Women and mens skeletons are very different. So different that people in various different occupations have as part of their job to be able to identify the sex. Even from an incomplete skeleton.

Women skeletons have wide hips because they they don't need to be able to run as fast as men. But what they do need is to have enough space there so that they can give birth to a live baby.
There are biological and mechanical reasons why women have wide hips. Like being able to have the baby survive birth.

 

[cormack12]

But no one has answered me about what the agenda is? The endgame? What’s Neil’s agenda with this game? What do you think he’s doing? What do you think he wants? What is naughty dog’s final goal with this game?

The problem is there are about four/five different arguments, some more valid than others. But instead of actually addressing all the issues, the argument has once again boiled down to the most reductive one. Exactly like Battlefield V. People are deliberately being stupid which is why I don't engage with most posters in this thread. If you are playing stupid then there's no point having a discussion. If you are actually that stupid then there's no point having that discussion.

Argument 1: The size/muscle mass of Abbie. Being explained away with 'you wanna talk about realism?', or 'girls can get that buff'. The argument is not about whether women can get ripped or to post pictures of women now. What it boils down to is world consistency and building. And some people are either disregrading it or genuinely not aware of it. And if you aren't aware it you won't know why it looks stupid and therefore aren;t worth having the discussion with. Let's boil down LOTR to magic elves, tiny people, wizards and a big eye in the sky - I mean, why not throw several robots in there for a sequel? What about Uncharted 5? We've already seen paranormal type of enemies, Drake fucking swings out of planes and can jump miles. There are strange magic stones that make people immortal etc. To be honest, I think we should give Drake a prosthetic arm like Barret from FFVII. What about X-Men, all sorts of abilities and imagination stretches - let's bring Gozer in and the Stay Puft marshmallow man. Every story and world is crafted uniquely and has to have its own set of rules. It's this nature, that makes a world tangible and believable. And when you see something out of place, then it pulls you out of the world and story. Forget anything else for the time being. There is no precedent for this massive hulk of a person, and it's as lazy as an 80's action film where the next guy in the way is bigger and badder than the one before. What people can't get their head round is that the reaction would be the same if there was some guy bare knuckling Joel who was the size of Ryu from SF V. This is a future where resources are scarce. Let me put this to you, looking at that centre and setup are you expecting Abbys army to have access to state of the art military weaponry as well? Can we see her and her friends running round with RPG's and fully modified M4's? Or is the military more concerned with having an LA Fitness than actual useful items?
Argument 2: Abby killing Joel. The first game was well received. It was a middling story and had average gameplay. What elevated it was the way the storytelling was told, just like RDR2 elevated storytelling this generation despite its gameplay flaws and mechanic decisions. This isn't like having an ensemble cast where characters are disposable, certainly not in the way it's being thrown in users faces as well. It's pure arrogance based on assumptions. All in all this is going to be subjective to each person, but one one side you will believe it doesn;t matter that Joel is killed. On the other you'll have people who believe he is the heart of the franchise. I think ND are relying on a lot of goodwill and handwaving to expect you to just pick up and play as Abby. It's kind of like we know we're going to pull this off so we're going to do it anyway, and later, you will thank us for it. A main character who was such as asshole but who we all had such affection for it spawned this as an homage. It was only later that the entire narrative was twisted to reflect joel was a villain, by some fanfic frustrated no-talent forum/reddit dwellers that want to be seen as 'deep', or by gaming journalists who wanted to illustrate how they were able to pick away such hidden and subtle layers of what amounted to an 'ambiguous ending'.

Further you hear the fans excitment to be carrying on the same story with Ellie in the panel. They completely missed the feeling when you hear the second clip.




Argument 3: Druckmann's personal beliefs. Whether we like it or not, writers beliefs will manifest themselves in the works they produce. Druckmann has specifically answered this himself.



The problem we have (and it's not just Druckmann) is that we've entered a phase where people don't just want acknoweldgment, they want fucking adulation. And if you dare question it, then you get labelled all sorts of shit. Are we meant to believe that all the fans of TLOU suddenly turned homophobic after playing a game where there was not a peep about Bill, where the DLC confirmed Allie was a lesbian, and the game has one of the best acclaimed user scores? The problem arises when you write to those beliefs and it intrudes on the work. The messages transcend the work because they are not subtle. There are plenty of games where nods to homosexuality etc. are subtle and just exist and guess what. No one cares. Well, a small minority will always care, because they're assholes but generally it's just not important. Druckmann's agenda is pretty much 'be accepting'. But most people actually are and when you use a platform like this to get acclaim, it's no longer about the cause but about the individual being recognised they are 'for the cause' and even worse when it shatters creative works that are already built.

Argument 4: The discussion around SJW/Abby etc. This is where all arguments trickle down to. There is no nuance to be had about the topics above, just you don't like the direction TLOU2 is going so yuo must be anti SJW. You're stannign for the size of Abbie so you must be an SJW. Its fucking tragic for people who actualyl want to discuss the direction ND is going with this game and the holes it's poking in the original game and characters.

The shit: Ellie dying/Abby being transgender isn't even worth discussing. We're not going to know the truth until the game releases or more leaks come out. I think it's a stretch to see either of those things happening in this game.


All in all this thread is a fucking disaster, but its not just here. Everywhere is the same. People pretending to be stupid to find the most cyclical argument to go round in circles on.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You two get a room. Stalking each other’s post thread history is borderline ...stalking ..

I respond to posts quoting me, I don't stalk anyone's post thread history.

I feel like posting this image again, by the way... who knows why?

vs,

If someone wants to tell me there are worse images of Abby, you're correct... but they're from the leaks which are unfinished and not intended for public consumption, when ND wanted you to see Abby they showed you this.

 

[Starbuck2907]

Sounds like they went for shocking and woke. I’m out.

 

[CobraXT]

 

[Dacon]

Erm, no. Please show some papers that detail this. Or else you mean that the folks at the FBI that identifies the biological sex of skeletons that people find are clueless and are not as well read up as you are?
Women and mens skeletons are very different. So different that people in various different occupations have as part of their job to be able to identify the sex. Even from an incomplete skeleton.

Women skeletons have wide hips because they they don't need to be able to run as fast as men. But what they do need is to have enough space there so that they can give birth to a live baby.
There are biological and mechanical reasons why women have wide hips. Like being able to have the baby survive birth.

Dude, for one thing calm down. I'm merely speaking from my experiences, there's always people who are outliers from commonality dude. We're all known women who are plain, don't have have wide hips and huge titties.

I'm well aware that there are biological reasons for why we develop the way we do, I'm also aware that mutations occur and we aren't all made the same. It's why a boy can develop looking feminine sometimes, and why a female can be pretty masculine sometimes.

I mean people can be born with intersex traits like ambiguous genitalia, is a manly woman really so unbelievable?

 

[Cato]

Dude, for one thing calm down. I'm merely speaking from my experiences, there's always people who are outliers from commonality dude. We're all known women who are plain, don't have have wide hips and huge titties.

I'm well aware that there are biological reasons for why we develop the way we do, I'm also aware that mutations occur and we aren't all made the same. It's why a boy can develop looking feminine sometimes, and why a female can be pretty masculine sometimes.

I mean people can be born with intersex traits like ambiguous genitalia, is a manly woman really so unbelievable?

Are you saying Abbey suffers from mutations or intersex birth defects that warped the ekeleton? Ok. Maybe she does. There is a simpler explanation though for her to have a clearly male skeletal build.

 

[Paracelsus]

This reminds me of when some people thought Ubisoft had simply taken Alexios' body and added Kassandra's head for her model.
Except Kassandra looks like Mr. Zip compared to Abby.

 

[Jon Neu]

And some people think that's the ending, when it's not.

Technically that is the ending.

Then we have the epilogue in which Noselina has the baby and says to Ellie that Abby doesn’t get to be more important than them. But Ellie ignores all that and goes on the hunt of Abby.

 

[Jon Neu]

Isn't there a stereotype about men, that they enjoy seeing women get physical and have girl fights?

That involves hot women and sexy clothes.

Neither of those things exist in the game because according to SWJ like Neil, they are sexist and done only to please the male audience, aka the “male gaze“. It’s very much against his principles to pander to white males.

So it’s literally the contrary of what you say.

 

[Sander Cohen]

lol

I can’t remember last time I laughed this hard

 

[ComputerBlue]

I love the first game, it’s probably my most replayed game in the past 20 years. I replay it every year, I’ve played through it like 10-15 times. This sounds fucking terrible, why the hell would I want to play

Spoiler

as the person who kills the characters that made the first game so good?

I was pissed that this game wasn’t launching with multiplayer, now I’m okay with that because it gives me all the more reason to not buy it. The whole concept sounds absolutely terrible and forced imo.

I wish Bruce Straley and Amy Hennig we’re still around. They made great games.

 

[scalman]

Wow you talk about leaks so much here , do you even play like real games or just talk about them instead? After all this talk here there is no point for you to play game, its allready done i guess. Its dead.

 

[Steve.1981]

Yep ComputerBlue you hit the nail on the head & cut through all the other noise in this thread.

How many people who played the first game & love Joel & Ellie will enjoy this new direction & want to play as Abby, given what she does to both Joel & Ellie. Not many, I'm willing to bet. That's the real reason these leaks have been so negatively recieved. It's actually pretty simple.

All we can really do now is wait for the game to release & see how it all plays out.

 

[scalman]

 

[BattleScar]

Erm, no. Please show some papers that detail this. Or else you mean that the folks at the FBI that identifies the biological sex of skeletons that people find are clueless and are not as well read up as you are?
Women and mens skeletons are very different. So different that people in various different occupations have as part of their job to be able to identify the sex. Even from an incomplete skeleton.

Women skeletons have wide hips because they they don't need to be able to run as fast as men. But what they do need is to have enough space there so that they can give birth to a live baby.
There are biological and mechanical reasons why women have wide hips. Like being able to have the baby survive birth.

Have you heard of Caesarian section?
There exist some women whose builds cause them great difficulty in giving birth, and those women often end up needing C-sections to successfully deliver a child.

Biologically speaking, in general, women have wider hips than men. Yes. Absolutely. But the thing about humans and life in general is variation. Very slight changes in DNA over generations or random mutations that occur when sperm or egg cells are being made, can cause there to be differences. There are men who are tall and have broad shoulders, and there are those who are short and have narrow shoulders and every other possibility in between. We don't question this because its fucking obvious.
The same also applies to women. Women too can have variances in their skeletal structure. Some can be tall with a slender frame/skeleton, while others can be short with wide hips, and of course everything in between.

And by the way, you can tell a biological female from a biological male not from the width of the hips, but the shape. Female hips have a large wide hole in the middle to enable birthing, while male hips have a much more constricted opening. The actual width of the hips are irrelevant - the shape is what matters. This is high school biology. And having wide hips does not preclude you from having wider shoulders. Women can have plenty wide hips, but equally wide shoulders too.

 

[Eiknarf]

Is Neil Druckmann aware of all the pre-release anti-buzz at this point? He was probably expecting nothing but praise (as was I), but any creator would be overwhelmed by all the disappointment being aimed at their creation.

what’s he saying? What’s his reaction to all the disappointment?

 

[Strategize]

How many people who played the first game & love Joel & Ellie will enjoy this new direction & want to play as Abby, given what she does to both Joel & Ellie. Not many, I'm willing to bet. That's the real reason these leaks have been so negatively recieved. It's actually pretty simple.

All we can really do now is wait for the game to release & see how it all plays out.

Me, I love Joel and Ellie because they're compelling characters, not because they're my fucking family for some shit.

Although, Abby killing Ellie would've been a step too far even for me, thankfully it doesn't seem like that'll be happening. I want a bittersweet ending for Ellie, her succeeding in some way but having to pay or sacrifice something for it.

 

[BattleScar]

Is Neil Druckmann aware of all the pre-release anti-buzz at this point? He was probably expecting nothing but praise (as was I), but any creator would be overwhelmed by all the disappointment being aimed at their creation.

what’s he saying? What’s his reaction to all the disappointment?

I imagine it would be as you'd expect. Taking criticism for anyone is hard, but taking almost vitriolic hatred from parts of the gaming/online community for something that is in the wider public eye has its own special challenges.
Whatever everyone here may think of Druckmann, his intention was to create something he thought people will love. I doubt he created it in mind to spite anyone. When all the work that goes into that is met with leaks and an online discourse that isn't exactly glowing...that will hit hard.

But then, this is to be expected of something that has the chance to reach millions across the world.

 

[Jon Neu]

what’s he saying? What’s his reaction to all the disappointment?

He is probably thinking the same Rian Johnson thought.

-Some people just don’t get it! They are mad that their headcanon isn’t real, what losers. I’m making art and defying your expectations. ART! Grow up! :smug face

-This fandom is full of white males (ugh) and they are toxic!

 

[Eiknarf]

He is probably thinking the same Rian Johnson thought.

-Some people just don’t get it! They are mad that their headcanon isn’t real, what losers. I’m making art and defying your expectations. ART! Grow up! :smug face

-This fandom is full of white males (ugh) and they are toxic!

So basically the only thing that would phase him and the creators would be if the sales plummet compared to the first -OR- if the Metacritic average (from critics OR users) take a nose dive and score below an 80..

 

[cormack12]

what’s he saying? What’s his reaction to all the disappointment?

Unfortunately I think he's retreated into the self isolation bubble that most of these creatives do. He's sharing all the obvious trolls and nobheads sending abuse on his IG/social media obviously fishing for messages of support and 'you are such a talent and people just don't get your genius' - which he then sort of drops into the convo as 'the majority are all supportive and sending love'. Regardless of where we all stand on the issue.

The most positive posts I've seen are basically:

ND can do no wrong, trust them all. Which have no crediblity given their bias
Some which seem unhappy but are willing to give it a chance
A smaller number who are more interested in whether the character switch actually works

I think generally speaking these teams and personalities need to step away from the false battles and online politics.

 

[Strategize]

I imagine it would be as you'd expect. Taking criticism for anyone is hard, but taking almost vitriolic hatred from parts of the gaming/online community for something that is in the wider public eye has its own special challenges.
Whatever everyone here may think of Druckmann, his intention was to create something he thought people will love. I doubt he created it in mind to spite anyone. When all the work that goes into that is met with leaks and an online discourse that isn't exactly glowing...that will hit hard.

But then, this is to be expected of something that has the chance to reach millions across the world.

I think his intention was to create something people would discuss and argue about actually. Troy Baker talks about him alot in interviews, he says Neil would rather have his game be loved or hated instead of ambivalence, I think some of his choices definitely show that mindset, nothing is very sugarcoated or "neat" as to not piss anyone off.

Consequences for beloved characters.
Diversity in clear view.
Alot of gay sexuality with Ellie and Dina.
Possibly the most violent game ever, both in gameplay and key scenes.
Trying to humanize characters he knows the audience may hate.

He's pushing almost every button purposely.

 

[Saber]

Me, I love Joel and Ellie because they're compelling characters, not because they're my fucking family for some shit.

Although, Abby killing Ellie would've been a step too far even for me, thankfully it doesn't seem like that'll be happening. I want a bittersweet ending for Ellie, her succeeding in some way but having to pay or sacrifice something for it.

So far people seems to have their concerns about the main characters because they grow attached to those characters...you know, like any normal person would.

Now about Abby I wouldn't be too happy if I were you. From the looks of it, they could do literally anything to make Ellie dies in the hand of Abby with no problem(extra points if you make gruesome). I actually can even see how it ends: Ellie ultimatelly fails to kill Abby in a tragic defeat, years later Dina have a son/daugher, she dies from ill and then the prodige son/daugher "avenges" the whole family finally.

Now the real question would be why killing Ellie would be a step too far?

 

[BattleScar]

I think his intention was to create something people would discuss and argue about actually. Troy Baker talks about him alot in interviews, he says Neil would rather have his game be loved or hated instead of ambivalence, I think some of his choices definitely show that mindset, nothing is very sugarcoated or "neat" as to not piss anyone off.

Consequences for beloved characters.
Diversity in clear view.
Alot of gay sexuality with Ellie and Dina.
Possibly the most violent game ever, both in gameplay and key scenes.
Trying to humanize characters he knows the audience may hate.

He's pushing almost every button purposely.

That's perfectly fine tbh.

That being the case, perhaps things are going exactly the way he expected. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[Strategize]

So far people seems to have their concerns about the main characters because they grow attached to those characters...you know, like any normal person would.

Now about Abby I wouldn't be too happy if I were you. From the looks of it, they could do literally anything to make Ellie dies in the hand of Abby with no problem(extra points if you make gruesome). I actually can even see how it ends: Ellie ultimatelly fails to kill Abby in a tragic defeat, years later Dina have a son/daugher, she dies from ill and then the prodige son "avenges" the whole family finally.

Now the real question would be why killing Ellie would be a step too far?

See my thing is, if Abby were gonna kill her then they would've done it in that scene. Like I don't see her getting brutally beaten, Abby lets her go, goes back again, gets brutally beaten again and dies. I don't see it.

It would be too far since it would make both Joel and Ellie's stories pointless. Which is why I expect a bittersweet ending like the first one.

That's perfectly fine tbh.

That being the case, perhaps things are going exactly the way he expected. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I mean, not exactly, since he wanted people to be arguing about the actual content, with the full context of the story. And without all the rage clickbait conspiracy stuff about things that aren't even real.

 

[Jon Neu]

And without all the rage clickbait conspiracy stuff about things that aren't even real.

It’s funny how you claim to want to talk about the content of the game while at the same time you are incapable of letting go your ridiculous conspiracy damage control.

You can repeat it all you want and try to dismiss everything while ignoring the facts that contradict you, it’s still not going to change the objective facts.

 

[Saber]

See my thing is, if Abby were gonna kill her then they would've done it in that scene. Like I don't see her getting brutally beaten, Abby lets her go, goes back again, gets brutally beaten again and dies. I don't see it.

Just because Ellie wasn't killed there doesn't mean she won't be killed. You saw that Ellie leaves Dina because she can't live knowing that Abby is alive out there.
One of them will die, sooner or later. And I can almost bet my money Abby is the one who gonna win.

It would be too far since it would make both Joel and Ellie's stories pointless. Which is why I expect a bittersweet ending like the first one.

Oh yeah, more than half of the posters here are basically saying that people are mad because the main characters are dying. Also, curiously people paints Joel as a mastermind villain because of his ending act as well. Anyway, I totally agree with you...even though I have the feeling that the creator is going through the route of killing the main characters.

Just saying, one of them dying or making one of them dying already makes the game kinda pointless imo. And as far I know this game clearly won't be given a bittersweet ending. The updated resume about the game already tells you gonna question the games principles(good and evil), so I wouldn't expect good things out of it.

 

[cormack12]

It’s funny how you claim to want to talk about the content of the game while at the same time you are incapable of letting go your ridiculous conspiracy damage control.

You can repeat it all you want and try to dismiss everything while ignoring the facts that contradict you, it’s still not going to change the objective facts.

I'd ignore them. Look at that post history. Every post in a ND/TLOU thread. So many have descended, just ignore them and roll on. They're not here for anything honest. Damage control extraordinaire. Old internet trolls/shills were the best. People don't even make the effort these days. I disagree with some of your points but at least you're real.

 

[Punkster88]

This girl is cool as fuck.

She's a total nerd. I'm guessing you must be one as well if you think that chick is cool. lol I'm sorry but I have to be honest here she's ugly as fuck.

 

[BattleScar]

She's a total nerd. I'm guessing you must be one as well if you think that chick is cool. lol

We're on a forum dedicated to video games....we are all in some small way, a group of nerds.

I mean look at all the nerd rage about this game!

It’s funny how you claim to want to talk about the content of the game while at the same time you are incapable of letting go your ridiculous conspiracy damage control.

You can repeat it all you want and try to dismiss everything while ignoring the facts that contradict you, it’s still not going to change the objective facts.

I haven't exactly done a deep dive on these leaks, but exactly which facts are contradicting what?

 

[Strategize]

It’s funny how you claim to want to talk about the content of the game while at the same time you are incapable of letting go your ridiculous conspiracy damage control.

You can repeat it all you want and try to dismiss everything while ignoring the facts that contradict you, it’s still not going to change the objective facts.

If your objective facts are "SJW ruined gaming because there's a buff women" or "Neil Cuckman is trash because his secret agenda is.......diversity" then I'll continue the "damage control" thank you very much. I don't give two flying fucks about that shit.

Just because Ellie wasn't killed there doesn't mean she won't be killed. You saw that Ellie leaves Dina because she can't live knowing that Abby is alive out there.
One of them will die, sooner or later. And I can almost bet my money Abby is the one who gonna win.



Oh yeah, more than half of the posters here are basically saying that people are mad because the main characters are dying. Also, curiously people paints Joel as a mastermind villain because of his ending act as well. Anyway, I totally agree with you...even though I have the feeling that the creator is going through the route of killing the main characters.

Just saying, one of them dying or making one of them dying already makes the game kinda pointless imo. And as far I know this game clearly won't be given a bittersweet ending. The updated resume about the game already tells you gonna question the games principles(good and evil), so I wouldn't expect good things out of it.

I mean whatever you say, but I'd honestly be mindblown if Neil killed Ellie. Just the way he's talked about her in the past, it should be obvious she's his favorite.

 

[Jon Neu]

If your objective facts are "SJW ruined gaming because there's a buff women" or "Neil Cuckman is trash because his secret agenda is.......diversity" then I'll continue the "damage control" thank you very much. I don't give two flying fucks about that shit.

No, my objective facts is that Cuckmann has recognised that his works are influenced by a crazy feminist called Anita, among other things.

I don’t think that necessarily ruins the game, but I understand that your extremist damage control mindset of Us vs Them isn’t capable of discerning any nuances, neither facts. You are literally getting mad at people recognising objective facts and trying to establish a false narrative in which the reality of the political agenda of Cuckmann is negated as “conspiracy theory”.

And all because you are mad at people laughing at SJW tropes and ideologies.

 

[Saber]

I mean whatever you say, but I'd honestly be mindblown if Neil killed Ellie. Just the way he's talked about her in the past, it should be obvious she's his favorite.

You saying a writer won't be killing his favorite character because he don't want to kill his favorite character and not because he want the story to be that way?
Seems like crap level of writting, but whatever floats your boat. Not here to blow expectation of people though, who knows what gonna happen.

 

[Ixiah]

I didn't bring them up because I think they suck. I mean if you really care about writing why do you like Buffy and Xena?

Welp, so much for calling yourself a sjw, you called 2 shows with strong female leads and LGBT Characters bad, give up your black mask at the entrance.

 

[njr]

The problem is there are about four/five different arguments, some more valid than others. But instead of actually addressing all the issues, the argument has once again boiled down to the most reductive one. Exactly like Battlefield V. People are deliberately being stupid which is why I don't engage with most posters in this thread. If you are playing stupid then there's no point having a discussion. If you are actually that stupid then there's no point having that discussion.

Argument 1: The size/muscle mass of Abbie. Being explained away with 'you wanna talk about realism?', or 'girls can get that buff'. The argument is not about whether women can get ripped or to post pictures of women now. What it boils down to is world consistency and building. And some people are either disregrading it or genuinely not aware of it. And if you aren't aware it you won't know why it looks stupid and therefore aren;t worth having the discussion with. Let's boil down LOTR to magic elves, tiny people, wizards and a big eye in the sky - I mean, why not throw several robots in there for a sequel? What about Uncharted 5? We've already seen paranormal type of enemies, Drake fucking swings out of planes and can jump miles. There are strange magic stones that make people immortal etc. To be honest, I think we should give Drake a prosthetic arm like Barret from FFVII. What about X-Men, all sorts of abilities and imagination stretches - let's bring Gozer in and the Stay Puft marshmallow man. Every story and world is crafted uniquely and has to have its own set of rules. It's this nature, that makes a world tangible and believable. And when you see something out of place, then it pulls you out of the world and story. Forget anything else for the time being. There is no precedent for this massive hulk of a person, and it's as lazy as an 80's action film where the next guy in the way is bigger and badder than the one before. What people can't get their head round is that the reaction would be the same if there was some guy bare knuckling Joel who was the size of Ryu from SF V. This is a future where resources are scarce. Let me put this to you, looking at that centre and setup are you expecting Abbys army to have access to state of the art military weaponry as well? Can we see her and her friends running round with RPG's and fully modified M4's? Or is the military more concerned with having an LA Fitness than actual useful items?
Argument 2: Abby killing Joel. The first game was well received. It was a middling story and had average gameplay. What elevated it was the way the storytelling was told, just like RDR2 elevated storytelling this generation despite its gameplay flaws and mechanic decisions. This isn't like having an ensemble cast where characters are disposable, certainly not in the way it's being thrown in users faces as well. It's pure arrogance based on assumptions. All in all this is going to be subjective to each person, but one one side you will believe it doesn;t matter that Joel is killed. On the other you'll have people who believe he is the heart of the franchise. I think ND are relying on a lot of goodwill and handwaving to expect you to just pick up and play as Abby. It's kind of like we know we're going to pull this off so we're going to do it anyway, and later, you will thank us for it. A main character who was such as asshole but who we all had such affection for it spawned this as an homage. It was only later that the entire narrative was twisted to reflect joel was a villain, by some fanfic frustrated no-talent forum/reddit dwellers that want to be seen as 'deep', or by gaming journalists who wanted to illustrate how they were able to pick away such hidden and subtle layers of what amounted to an 'ambiguous ending'.

Further you hear the fans excitment to be carrying on the same story with Ellie in the panel. They completely missed the feeling when you hear the second clip.




Argument 3: Druckmann's personal beliefs. Whether we like it or not, writers beliefs will manifest themselves in the works they produce. Druckmann has specifically answered this himself.



The problem we have (and it's not just Druckmann) is that we've entered a phase where people don't just want acknoweldgment, they want fucking adulation. And if you dare question it, then you get labelled all sorts of shit. Are we meant to believe that all the fans of TLOU suddenly turned homophobic after playing a game where there was not a peep about Bill, where the DLC confirmed Allie was a lesbian, and the game has one of the best acclaimed user scores? The problem arises when you write to those beliefs and it intrudes on the work. The messages transcend the work because they are not subtle. There are plenty of games where nods to homosexuality etc. are subtle and just exist and guess what. No one cares. Well, a small minority will always care, because they're assholes but generally it's just not important. Druckmann's agenda is pretty much 'be accepting'. But most people actually are and when you use a platform like this to get acclaim, it's no longer about the cause but about the individual being recognised they are 'for the cause' and even worse when it shatters creative works that are already built.

Argument 4: The discussion around SJW/Abby etc. This is where all arguments trickle down to. There is no nuance to be had about the topics above, just you don't like the direction TLOU2 is going so yuo must be anti SJW. You're stannign for the size of Abbie so you must be an SJW. Its fucking tragic for people who actualyl want to discuss the direction ND is going with this game and the holes it's poking in the original game and characters.

The shit: Ellie dying/Abby being transgender isn't even worth discussing. We're not going to know the truth until the game releases or more leaks come out. I think it's a stretch to see either of those things happening in this game.


All in all this thread is a fucking disaster, but its not just here. Everywhere is the same. People pretending to be stupid to find the most cyclical argument to go round in circles on.

Well said, there's many arguments people are purposefully ignoring in favor of the low hanging fruit which can be dismissed. It should be worth discussing whether or not the story suffers due to the narrative direction. After watching the leaks, I'm not very impressed and think TLOU1 has a much stronger premise. Revenge plots don't really interest me in this setting.

 

[TreyCinco]

If it’s true that it was Xbox fans that leaked the game, they deserve praise for doing the Lord’s work and leaking that piece of shit.

 

[Jayjayhd34]

If it’s true that it was Xbox fans that leaked the game, they deserve praise for doing the Lord’s work and leaking that piece of shit.

WTF if you read on Internet a fucking elephant leaked the game would you belive it there's no confirmation who leaked the game other than fact is was agroup....

 

[Jon Neu]

If it’s true that it was Xbox fans that leaked the game, they deserve praise for doing the Lord’s work and leaking that piece of shit.

Them Xbox Discord Group hackers winning the console war at the very last second.

My boys.

 

[Strategize]

No, my objective facts is that Cuckmann has recognised that his works are influenced by a crazy feminist called Anita, among other things.

I don’t think that necessarily ruins the game, but I understand that your extremist damage control mindset of Us vs Them isn’t capable of discerning any nuances, neither facts. You are literally getting mad at people recognising objective facts and trying to establish a false narrative in which the reality of the political agenda of Cuckmann is negated as “conspiracy theory”.

And all because you are mad at people laughing at SJW tropes and ideologies.

The female character design in every single Naughty Dog game since 2013 has been influenced by Anita's videos. Yes, I know, big whoop, I don't care.

I'm talking all the BS like disgruntled employees leaking the game, employees being upset at the game being too "woke", people throwing around fake parts of the leak to make it sound worse, like Abby being Trans and Ellie dying, I've even seen a handful of people say that Amy wrote TLOU1 instead of Neil. Like the level of stupid you need to believe some of this shit is something else.

Anyway back to the evil "SJW" agenda. I wish Abby was a black transgenger, bisexual, ripped attack helicopter dragon. Not because I particularly give a fuck about diversity, but because seeing your reaction would make me chuckle.

 

[Jon Neu]

The female character design in every single Naughty Dog game since 2013 has been influenced by Anita's videos. Yes, I know, big whoop, I don't care.

I wish Abby was a black transgenger, bisexual, ripped attack helicopter dragon. Not because I particularly give a fuck about diversity, but because seeing your reaction would make me chuckle

I too laugh at people laughing histerically, which would be my reaction.

I’m enjoying every second of this. This thread alone is more fun than most current gen games. Especially when indignators like you come all triggered because we dare to laugh at the silly woke cringefest the game brings. So you retort to the “it’s not true, you all are making things up and you also fear women!!1!”.

It’s delicious.

I can’t literally wait to play the game and come back to this thread and watch the shitshow unveil right in front of my very eyes.

 

[rofif]

At t

that is so stupid. You were defending yourself in that scene and they wanted to murder her. They were terrorists in the last game and Joel just saved his "daughter" from bad guys

 

[Javthusiast]

She looked way more like a woman in that trailer where she was about to be gutted, why the hell does she look so different in the golf club image? Is there a time skip or did Druckmann decide to buff her up even more for sjw points?( I haven't watched all the footage or read everything, just spoiled myself on Joels death, how and that we play as Abby)

 

[Jayjayhd34]

I too laugh at people laughing histerically, which would be my reaction.

I’m enjoying every second of this. This thread alone is more fun than most current gen games. Especially when indignators like you come all triggered because we dare to laugh at the silly woke cringefest the game brings. So you retort to the “it’s not true, you all are making things up and you also fear women!!1!”.

It’s delicious.

I can’t literally wait to play the game and come back to this thread and watch the shitshow unveil right in front of my very eyes.

So you spent 40 pages arguing how this ruining the industry and shouldn't be in games. However with these beliefs your still support the game. That my son is the hypocritical thing I've ever read.

 

[Strategize]

At t

that is so stupid. You were defending yourself in that scene and they wanted to murder her. They were terrorists in the last game and Joel just saved his "daughter" from bad guys

Tell that to Abby, I'm sure she'd just stop bashing his head in right then and there.

 

[joe_zazen]

Them Xbox Discord Group hackers winning the console war at the very last second.

My boys.

if it is true, one of em needs to write a book.