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[Quixzlizx]

That trope does not go that far back, since Jews in Europe have been historically segregated from the rest of society and put into Ghettos. It would have been absurd to claim that these people were in fact the puppet masters of the world. One can likely find the root of these conspiracy theories around 1800 during the the rise of enlightenment philosophies and governments. Reactionary forces needed to explain how their religious and monarchal traditions were being replaced by liberal democracies, especially after the establishment of the United States and its constitution. This lead naturally to conspiracy theories that blamed those minorities who profited the most from secular/liberal/egalitarian values. That template was probably first laid out by Augustine Barruel and evolved from there to include the Jews. As a historically persecuted minority who profited from said liberal values they where the perfect match. Bullshit like the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion trace back to the template that Barruel created. And they have become part of contemporary culture. For instance, Hitler exported such propaganda to the Middle-East, and it is still popular there to this day.

I'm talking about the passion plays that were about how Jews were the puppetmasters and "real" cause of Jesus' death, rather than the Romans.

Also, medieval Jews were persecuted because they were willing to engage in usury, and is the origin of the Jewish banking conspiracy put into place later on (mainly because they were banned from owning property, so they had to make a living somehow).

 

[Father_Brain]

I'm not sure what this has to do with Jews.



There are plenty of links between Islamist terrorist groups and Islamic "institutions."

I agree that one of us is being intellectually dishonest. Basically, anti-Zionists like yourself claim not to be anti-Semitic, but they go out of their way to try to paint Jews as a whole as Zionists, therefore allowing themselves to be "anti-Zionist" against all Jews.

Jews as a whole, no. But Diaspora Jewish establishment organizations overwhelmingly are driven largely by Zionism, and usually not even particularly liberal Zionism at that - good luck finding more than handful that criticized the use of force in Protective Edge, or treat BDS as a subject for debate rather than some kind of anti-Semitic existential threat.

 

[Father_Brain]

The anti-semitic trope of "Jewish puppetmasters controlling things from behind the scenes" has been ingrained into Western culture since the death of Jesus. So I think a lot of possibly well-meaning people don't even realize they've absorbed and legitimized it when they hint and intimate that Jews as a whole are collectively responsible for Israeli government policy (or Western support for Israeli policy) while claiming to only be anti-Zionist.

I mean, there are even millions of Israelis who didn't vote for Bibi and his pack of fuckboys, let alone the millions of non-Israeli Jews who have had no impact on Israeli politics.

Again, who is blaming "Jews as a whole?" Is it really anti-Semitic to suggest that the likes of Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson, or the donors who set the pro-Israel agenda of most Diaspora Jewish organizations have a disproportionate influence on US policy towards the country?

 

[Your Entertainer]

Why don't you reply to actual posts in this thread instead of just shitposting about the dreaded "Zionist anti-semitism accusation" boogyman?

I mean, you're doing exactly what you're whining about in your post (trying to shut down the conversation by labeling the opposition without any logical argument).

I'm on my phone so I'm not as nimble as I want to be. Still, the point was brought up earlier in this thread, which is why I brought up my story. Of course I stated as much in my post.

It's ridiculously stupid to compare what I'm doing to what I brought up. How is what I'm doing shutting down anything or labeling anyone (inmaccurately)? I'm citing specific instances I've seen that were pretty clear-cut instances of using anti-semitism as a scapegoat.

I'm not really making a logical argument here, like your snarky, shitty post asserts. Just echoing prior experiences I saw in the thread. I will state this - just for the comprehension-impaired - it's dishonest to shout anti-Semite at any criticism of Israels policy, like I have seen done before.

 

[squidyj]

I posted a link to a government study earlier:





Much of that assessment comes from the fact that criticism of Israel, especially from the Left, ist often times disproportionate and non-factual. It is equally telling to see that this tiny piece of land und a democratic government has been singled out by the Left many times over the last decade, while countries with far worse situations and totalitarian/fascist governments have comparatively been ignored. In parts, many on the Left have bought into the narrative of Israel's neighbors who have historically opposed Jewish immigration on anti-semitic grounds, because the enemy of my enemy (the "American hegemony") is my friend. This is why people like Augstein are getting the honor. Some argue that they are fellow travelers of anti-semitism; not without reason, in my opinion.

please tell me more about the far worse nations that tout themselves as a shining light of democracy in the middle east and engender so much financial and political support from western powers.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I'm completely bewildered by this thread. So far, in contrast to actual figures showing swells in anti-semitism alongside a demonstrated growth in Jews moving to Israel, we have the following counter arguments:]

Maybe I missed it (in which case I apologize), but has this been demonstrated? I saw your anecdote about your synagogue, but that's just an anecdote. But again, if you have demonstrated it with actual numbers I'll apologize. And if not, I'd like to see some actual numbers on it.

I do hope you didn't mean the article in the OP, because that doesn't actually give any comparisons about how it's been before, and the source is rather questionable (if you think the source is fine, I'd like to hear though).

4. It's true but I still believe Islamophobia is worse because I'm a leftist and institutions like the FBI and CST are lying.

Honestly, I don't think simplifying things like this really helps your point. Someone brought up that the stats seem really weird as there are a lot more hate crimes in the US than what is shown in the FBI's stats. I don't think the person meant to say FBI is lying or anything, but it does seem a bit weird and the data seems fairly inaccurate. The person brought up stats to prove his point, but nobody countered those at all.

Someone also pointed out that your FBI stats about the Jews being target of religion based hate crimes more often than any other group, doesn't actually seem disproportional at all when you take it in full context. You didn't do that and there's nothing wrong with it really - it's very easy to look at data and make misleading conclusions about it. I don't want to judge you for ignoring that post countering the data's misrepresentation either, because it might very well be that you just didn't see it. But I implore you now to see the post (it's quoted in my post above) and if you think it's incorrect or forgets something or whatever, then reply to it please. I'll be sure to read it too and I'll admit I was wrong if I think you're right. Or if you think it's right then please, admit it. Admitting you're wrong on some thing isn't a shame, it only serves to help your argument because it shows you're honest.

I'm not sure what further discussion can really be had at this point.


Meanwhile, actual Jews are reporting actual anti-semitism. It's bizarre.

I agree with you here at least for a large part. Too many people seem to just come here to say "no no there's nothing happening, I don't see anything". It's sad really, and harms proper discussion.

Your experiences were also really shitty and I wish you didn't have to go through that. However, I don't think your "ask any Jew and they'll tell you the same" narrative is based on reality at all. We have Jews in this thread saying it hasn't been like that to them.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Again, who is blaming "Jews as a whole?" Is it really anti-Semitic to suggest that the likes of Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson, or the donors who set the pro-Israel agenda of most Diaspora Jewish organizations have a disproportionate influence on US policy towards the country?

Saying that isn't. But that's different from having a "what did you expect?" attitude towards rising anti-semitism that your original post in the thread had.

To expand on my example that you denounced earlier, there are Saudi lobbyists/oil concerns that have a disproportionate influence on US policy towards KSA, but I don't think linking that with Islamophobia with such a flippant attitude would be as acceptable, on GAF at least.

Are you expecting American Jews to go out of their way to vocally denounce pro-Israeli political operatives at every opportunity, much like the right expects Muslims to publically denounce terrorism after every terrorist attack in the West? AIPAC can go fuck itself, but so can any lobbyist group who is pushing an agenda that runs counter to my interests as an American.

I'm on my phone so I'm not as nimble as I want to be. Still, the point was brought up earlier in this thread, which is why I brought up my story. Of course I stated as much in my post.

It's ridiculously stupid to compare what I'm doing to what I brought up. How is what I'm doing shutting down anything or labeling anyone (inmaccurately)? I'm citing specific instances I've seen that were pretty clear-cut instances of using anti-semitism as a scapegoat.

I'm not really making a logical argument here, like your snarky, shitty post asserts. Just echoing prior experiences I saw in the thread.

Like I said, why don't you respond to actual posts in this thread, instead of bringing up some ass who got banned in a different thread just so you can parachute into this thread to grind your axe? There is a civil, nuanced discussion already occurring here if you care to join it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Jews as a whole, no. But Diaspora Jewish establishment organizations overwhelmingly are driven largely by Zionism, and usually not even particularly liberal Zionism at that - good luck finding more than handful that criticized the use of force in Protective Edge, or treat BDS as a subject for debate rather than some kind of anti-Semitic existential threat.

By zionism, do you mean militant expansion and settlements/conquest, or the existence of safehavens for Jews?

 

[Father_Brain]

1) Muslim state entities that perpetrate terrorist acts (or oppression of religious minorities, or both) are also supported by America. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are two obvious examples.

2) Plenty of Muslim countries claim to be secular liberal democracies while violating human rights. Bangladesh and Turkey come to mind.

3) I disagree with your claim that Muslim institutions/identity aren't intertwined with execrable Muslim state actors. Not ISIS perhaps, but other countries worse than Israel receive political support, financial remittances, and moral comfort from Muslim communities around the world. I mean, you have to be aware of this, so maybe I'm misunderstanding your definition of "intertwined".

Posts in this thread like yours--along with Hix's links on increasing anti-Semitic attacks and the muted response to them--have convinced me that a much larger portion of anti-Zionism really is driven by anti-Jewish hatred than I previously thought. That, or willful blindness driven by an attempt to build up the importance of Islamophobia at the expense of liberal values.

1) The US' support of those countries gets plenty of criticism, without (to my knowledge) said criticism being branded Islamophobic.

2) Did either of those countries perpetrate the previously mentioned terrorist attacks? Does either get diplomatic, financial, and military aid approaching what the US provides Israel?

3) This argument seems to be implying that I think all Jews should be painted with the same brush, which is nonsense. I used the term "institutions" for a reason.

As for calling me anti-Semitic: give me a fucking break. I grew up in the Jewish community, still identify as Jewish, and came to reject the rightish Zionism and lachrymose narratives of eternal Jewish victimhood I was taught in Hebrew school from that perspective.

To be absolutely clear, I do not doubt that anti-Semitism is a problem or that it's worse in Europe than it is here in the States. But I object very strongly to the implicit narrative in the OP that it is impossible for Jews to have true freedom, agency, or safety without Israel. The US alone disproves that, and even in Europe, current manifestations of anti-Semitism are fundamentally different from the state-sponsored atrocities that preceded the Holocaust.

 

[Father_Brain]

By zionism, do you mean militant expansion and settlements/conquest, or the existence of safehavens for Jews?

Both, though the former is obviously more objectionable.

I'm not opposed to the existence of a Jewish state should a two-state solution prove achievable, which I increasingly doubt will happen. But the latter presupposes that Jews cannot be truly safe or free in the Diaspora, and that does not even remotely comport with my experiences.

 

[Union Carbine]

Both, though the former is obviously more objectionable.

I'm not opposed to the existence of a Jewish state should a two-state solution prove achievable, which I increasingly doubt will happen. But the latter presupposes that Jews cannot be truly safe or free in the Diaspora, and that does not even remotely comport with my experiences.

Are you Jewish?

 

[zero shift]

I'm completely bewildered by this thread. So far, in contrast to actual figures showing swells in anti-semitism alongside a demonstrated growth in Jews moving to Israel, we have the following counter arguments:

1. I'm on Xbox Live every day and never hear any anti-semitic remarks, so it mustn't be true.

2. In all my years as an Englishman I've never witnessed a Jew being lynched, so it mustn't be true.

3. It might be true, but who cares, it's Israel's fault.

4. It's true but I still believe Islamophobia is worse because I'm a leftist and institutions like the FBI and CST are lying.

I'm not sure what further discussion can really be had at this point.



Meanwhile, actual Jews are reporting actual anti-semitism. It's bizarre.

Literally nobody has said any of those things except a much more tame version of point 2.

Politically the positions on Israel are different in the USA to Europe. I think that the right in Europe does not really care about Israel that much. While the cause of Palestine is a major cause for, at least, the hard left. In the USA there seems to be something of a mirror image of this with Israel being a traditionally a major issue for the right wing. Although there does appear to now be an emergent hard left in the USA that is much more pro Palestine and generally hostile to any negative representation of Muslims.

You are vastly overstating that mount of Socialist parties that focus a lot on the Palestinian/Israel conflict and vastly understanding the correlation of parties that lie on the right side of politics that do. It isn't just the US, UK (UKIP), French (National Front, to be fair they recently shifted), Belgium (Vlamaas Blok), and other right wing parties show support for Israel rather than Palestine. When looking at center right parties that holds true as well.

The cases of Stalin and Hitler are interesting for the European left. For the longest time the left in Europe would deny the brutality of Stalin's regime and would go out of their way to jump on anything that hinted that negative stories about what was happening were lies. A famous journalist who was a "betrayer of the left" on this issue was George Orwell.

What does this have to do with thread?

Similarly for Hitler people in the left anti war platform would say that his treatment of Jews was actually justified because Jews as a whole were to be blamed for the financial crisis in Germany. This was not really a fringe belief and many still hang onto these beliefs to this day. On neogaf I have even seen people happily say that Jewish people as a whole are "legitimate targets" which seems crazy to me.

I really find the first point questioning, and the last sentence is complete horseshit.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Both, though the former is obviously more objectionable.

I'm not opposed to the existence of a Jewish state should a two-state solution prove achievable, which I increasingly doubt will happen. But the latter presupposes that Jews cannot be truly safe or free in the Diaspora, and that does not even remotely comport with my experiences.

Ehhh, our parents remember times where Jews couldn't own property or have admitting privileges at hospitals. Our grandparents remember the Holocaust. Our great grandparents recall the pogroms. The far right in our country, the US, only supports Israel to the ends of its destruction and mass Jewish deaths (to bring about the events foretold in the book of Revelations). People still try to impose Christianity on us, and there are still more hate crimes against Jews than any other demographic.


Things are better, and I feel safe, but ours is the first generation to have that luxury really.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

You are vastly overstating that mount of Socialist parties that focus a lot on the Palestinian/Israel conflict and vastly understanding the correlation of parties that lie on the right side of politics that do. It isn't just the US, UK (UKIP), French (National Front, to be fair they recently shifted), Belgium (Vlamaas Blok), and other right wing parties show support for Israel rather than Palestine. When looking at center right parties that holds true as well.

I'm overstating things and you are claiming that UKIP are historically the mainstream right of British politics and likewise FN for France?

 

[Boss Mog]

People on GAF downplaying or outright not caring about anti-semitism is nothing new

This. I constantly see comments like this one go by like they were nothing, when similar stereotypical jokes about other minorities would be met with heavy bans.

 

[SkeptiMism]

This. I constantly see comments like this one go by like they were nothing, when similar stereotypical jokes about other minorities would be met with heavy bans.

Have you ever contacted moderators about it? PM them and make your case (and be civil obviously).

 

[Particle Physicist]

Ehhh, our parents remember times where Jews couldn't own property or have admitting privileges at hospitals. Our grandparents remember the Holocaust. Our great grandparents recall the pogroms. The far right in our country, the US, only supports Israel to the ends of its destruction and mass Jewish deaths (to bring about the events foretold in the book of Revelations). People still try to impose Christianity on us, and there are still more hate crimes against Jews than any other demographic.

Things are better, and I feel safe, but ours is the first generation to have that luxury really.

When I was in high school I had a friend who came from a very wealthy family. His family lived in a very exclusive part of Miami, but because they were Jewish they were not allowed to be members of the country club. This was in my lifetime and in Miami where there is a huge Jewish population. I also have personally had antisemitic experiences myself (which I will not detail here) and I am not religious nor do I wear any identifiable Jewish 'wear.' My elementary school was Jewish and they constantly had break-ins with people vandalizing the place with swastikas and other such things. None of this was ever in the news, and I am sure much of it still continues today. But I guess non-jews in this thread have not experienced anti-semitism first hand and thus they feel it does not exist. People posting as if the statistics referenced here are just some sort of conspiracy theory to get Jews to move to Israel. Even ignoring statistic from the FBI. :/

 

[Father_Brain]

Ehhh, our parents remember times where Jews couldn't own property or have admitting privileges at hospitals. Our grandparents remember the Holocaust. Our great grandparents recall the pogroms. The far right in our country, the US, only supports Israel to the ends of its destruction and mass Jewish deaths (to bring about the events foretold in the book of Revelations). People still try to impose Christianity on us, and there are still more hate crimes against Jews than any other demographic.


Things are better, and I feel safe, but ours is the first generation to have that luxury really.

I can certainly understand why generations that grew up closer to the Holocaust and the founding of Israel are more inclined to accept the general Zionist narrative of Jews' place in the Diaspora vs. Israel.

I don't think that makes that narrative any more true in 2016, though, especially with respect to American Jewry. Yes, anti-Semitism still exists, but Diaspora Jews have attained quite remarkable success in the political, cultural, and economic arenas without being a majority in their home countries. Yet most Diaspora Jewish institutions are still deeply invested in a narrative that implicitly or explicitly minimizes these accomplishments by promoting Israel as the only true home for Jews, and the only place where it is possible for Jews to have "real" safety, freedom, or agency.

Really, in my more cynical moments, I feel like many pro-Israel Jews are more threatened by the prospect of a world where Jews no longer have to fear extermination than they are by the possibility of another Holocaust itself.

 

[Chairman Yang]

1) The US' support of those countries gets plenty of criticism, without (to my knowledge) said criticism being branded Islamophobic.

2) Did either of those countries perpetrate the previously mentioned terrorist attacks? Does either get diplomatic, financial, and military aid approaching what the US provides Israel?

3) This argument seems to be implying that I think all Jews should be painted with the same brush, which is nonsense. I used the term "institutions" for a reason.

As for calling me anti-Semitic: give me a fucking break. I grew up in the Jewish community, still identify as Jewish, and came to reject the rightish Zionism and lachrymose narratives of eternal Jewish victimhood I was taught in Hebrew school from that perspective.

To be absolutely clear, I do not doubt that anti-Semitism is a problem or that it's worse in Europe than it is here in the States. But I object very strongly to the implicit narrative in the OP that it is impossible for Jews to have true freedom, agency, or safety without Israel. The US alone disproves that, and even in Europe, current manifestations of anti-Semitism are fundamentally different from the state-sponsored atrocities that preceded the Holocaust.

Point-by-point:
1) Sure, but that's not the thing I'm arguing against, which is that anti-Semitism is somehow understandable or (in milder forms) justifiable because of Israel. That same logic can be used for Islamophobia. This point was my response to your claim that Israel's American support somehow uniquely justified anti-Semitism.

2) Wikipedia tells me Israel gets $3 billion from the US. Bangladesh gets $2.6 billion. Turkey gets a negligible amount, but Pakistan (which also claims to be a democracy) gets around $1.5 billion. Bangladesh's government has looked the other way as atheists, secularists, religious minorities, and apostates have been slaughtered. And that's the government ruled by the supposedly more liberal, less Islamist of the two main parties in the country. Pakistan is even worse (you can check wikipedia for a long litany of state terrorism and internal oppression done by the authorities or condoned by them).

My point is, these regimes are on par (or far worse) than Israel. It makes no sense to say anti-Semitism is an understandable consequence of Israel's actions unless you also agree that anti-Muslim sentiment is an understandable consequence of Muslim-majority country governments. Both are horrendous and should be fought against rather than passively condoned.

3) I understand. I'm saying that there's no appreciable difference between the support of Jewish institutions for bad Israeli policies and the support of Muslim institutions for bad Muslim-country policies. I'm confident that potential anti-Semites and anti-Muslims aren't carefully tallying up relative levels of financial and political support and then becoming hateful because of their careful analysis.

 

[Crash Station]

Really, in my more cynical moments, I feel like many pro-Israel Jews are more threatened by the prospect of a world where Jews no longer have to fear extermination than they are by the possibility of another Holocaust itself.

That's ludicrous and downplays the severity of the Holocaust. I'm sure some Jews have a hard on for persecution, but to say that's what it is and not fear after being the target of the worst genocide in human history is ridiculous. Not even talking about whether those fears are unfounded or not.

 

[Kurtofan]

to be fair if I could move from france id do it, is there an aliyah to move to canada.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I'm completely bewildered by this thread. So far, in contrast to actual figures showing swells in anti-semitism alongside a demonstrated growth in Jews moving to Israel, we have the following counter arguments:

(...)

Meanwhile, actual Jews are reporting actual anti-semitism. It's bizarre.

Doesn't the fact that you believe these arguments ignorant show why this discussion should continue?

People can be simply unaware of the issues and need it clearly demonstrated.

 

[Madness]

Something's off about those numbers reading the report. Only 6800 hate crimes in the entire US? With racial tensions as high as they are in some area's along with anti-islamic sentiment going on calling them all terrorists?

According to those stats only roughly 150 anti-islamic hate crimes existed in the whole US in 2014. I guess it could be an issue of reporting vs actual happening but still a lot of those numbers seem really really low and portray most of the US as some 1950's perfect suburb.

This is more that you're having trouble reconciling reality with your thoughts/feelings. Hate crimes are not widespread at all even with racial tensions as high as they are. If anything, reporting hate crimes, actually having them prosecuted has never been easier. Yes you're right that a lot do probably go unreported, but not to the extent you think. The US is far better now than it was in the 1950's.

The point of that was to show that people saying they rarely see antisemitism anymore, and yet 63% of all religious based hate crimes still are against Jews.

 

[Father_Brain]

Point-by-point:
1) Sure, but that's not the thing I'm arguing against, which is that anti-Semitism is somehow understandable or (in milder forms) justifiable because of Israel. That same logic can be used for Islamophobia. This point was my response to your claim that Israel's American support somehow uniquely justified anti-Semitism.

2) Wikipedia tells me Israel gets $3 billion from the US. Bangladesh gets $2.6 billion. Turkey gets a negligible amount, but Pakistan (which also claims to be a democracy) gets around $1.5 billion. Bangladesh's government has looked the other way as atheists, secularists, religious minorities, and apostates have been slaughtered. And that's the government ruled by the supposedly more liberal, less Islamist of the two main parties in the country. Pakistan is even worse (you can check wikipedia for a long litany of state terrorism and internal oppression done by the authorities or condoned by them).

My point is, these regimes are on par (or far worse) than Israel. It makes no sense to say anti-Semitism is an understandable consequence of Israel's actions unless you also agree that anti-Muslim sentiment is an understandable consequence of Muslim-majority country governments. Both are horrendous and should be fought against rather than passively condoned.

3) I understand. I'm saying that there's no appreciable difference between the support of Jewish institutions for bad Israeli policies and the support of Muslim institutions for bad Muslim-country policies. I'm confident that potential anti-Semites and anti-Muslims aren't carefully tallying up relative levels of financial and political support and then becoming hateful because of their careful analysis.

I would have to disagree with your assessment of Western Islamophobia. To the extent that it arises from actual actions committed by actual Muslims (and it certainly does, to a non-trivial extent), I see little indication that it has much to do with the human rights violations of any of the Muslim countries you mention, horrific and worthy of condemnation as they are, as opposed to terrorist acts committed by non-state actors.

This is what makes western anti-Semitism so different: not that it is "better," but that to the extent that it arises from actual acts committed by actual Jews, as opposed to Protocols of the Elders of Zion shit, it arises largely from acts committed by an actual state, one whose actions are overwhelmingly backed by support from the US, Diaspora Jewish institutions, and, at least in the case of Protective Edge, the Israeli public.

Lest this be misconstrued, none of this is to say that anti-Semitism is justified or that Jews who fail to meet some threshold of criticism of Israel have it coming. But given Israel's close economic, cultural, diplomatic and political ties with the Western world, Western governments and Diaspora Jews have far more leverage over its actions than Western governments or Western Muslims do with the likes of ISIS. And given that, I don't think it's hypocritical for the Western left to focus more on the concrete contributing factors of anti-Semitism than on the concrete contributing factors of Islamophobia.

Now, if anyone on the left is actually claiming that European victims of anti-Semitic violence deserved it, that's reprehensible, but it's not what I see happening.

 

[Father_Brain]

That's ludicrous and downplays the severity of the Holocaust. I'm sure some Jews have a hard on for persecution, but to say that's what it is and not fear after being the target of the worst genocide in human history is ridiculous. Not even talking about whether those fears are unfounded or not.

One can surely acknowledge the reality and magnitude of the Holocaust, or that anti-Semitism still exists, without believing that there is any credible threat of mass Jewish extermination in 2016.

If people want to argue the contrary, they can and should (and thankfully they did in the case of the Iran deal, and even more thankfully they lost the argument there), but it's absolutely an assertion that should be brought into the daylight and held up to scrutiny, not merely left implicit in pro-Israel narratives.

 

[SURGEdude]

Much of that assessment comes from the fact that criticism of Israel, especially from the Left, ist often times disproportionate and non-factual. It is equally telling to see that this tiny piece of land und a democratic government has been singled out by the Left many times over the last decade, while countries with far worse situations and totalitarian/fascist governments have comparatively been ignored. In parts, many on the Left have bought into the narrative of Israel's neighbors who have historically opposed Jewish immigration on anti-semitic grounds, because the enemy of my enemy (the "American hegemony") is my friend. This is why people like Augstein are getting the honor. Some argue that they are fellow travelers of anti-semitism; not without reason, in my opinion.

I find this angle strange. I think the reason people on the left are more likely to be critical of Israel than it's neighbors is because we have faith in their system of democracy and willingness to right wrongs.

Complaining about Saudi Arabia is by contrast pointless.

 

[Crash Station]

One can surely acknowledge the reality and magnitude of the Holocaust, or that anti-Semitism still exists, without believing that there is any credible threat of mass Jewish extermination in 2016.

If people want to argue the contrary, they can and should (and thankfully they did in the case of the Iran deal, and even more thankfully they lost the argument there), but it's absolutely an assertion that should be brought into the daylight and held up to scrutiny, not merely left implicit in pro-Israel narratives.

All I'm saying is it's far more reasonable to believe that's the mindset some people adopt over legitimately WANTING the threat of extermination. Yes, persecution complex is a thing, but to say that's the driving motivation for Pro-Israel people over a legitimate fear of history repeating itself is crazy and kind of insulting imo. I say this as someone that doesn't believe a mass Jewish extermination event will ever happen again.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Bringing up the Palestinian issue in a thread about antisemitism is the same as mentioning black crime in a thread about racism. It's basically victim blaming. Whatever your position about the policies of the Israeli government, that does not excuse any acts of hate against random Jews or Israelis for that matter.

Agree.

You know what else is funny though? That it seems like some are unwilling to afford the same sentiment towards the Muslims as well. Saying stuff like "Muslims are spreading persecution propaganda" or similar really looks like you are blaming Muslims because the hate against them happens to draw more attention. "No! People can't pay attention to YOUR plight more than MY plight!" kind of thing. It is as if hate for your identity or who you are is a race that must be won or something.

Silly, huh?

 

[Father_Brain]

All I'm saying is it's far more reasonable to believe that's the mindset some people adopt over legitimately WANTING the threat of extermination. Yes, persecution complex is a thing, but to say that's the driving motivation for Pro-Israel people over a legitimate fear of history repeating itself is crazy and kind of insulting imo. I say this as someone that doesn't believe a mass Jewish extermination event will ever happen again.

Hmm... so, as you suggest, does the fear of another Holocaust drive people to support Israel as a safe haven from persecution, which in turn leads people to the view that whatever Israel does (or close to it) in the name of self-defense is justified in order to preserve that safe haven? Or do people start from the view that Israel's actions must be justified, and then convince themselves that Jews are a hair's breadth away from extermination in order to rationalize its more questionable actions?

It's an intriguing but ultimately academic chicken-or-egg question, which has little relevance when said fear of a hypothetical extermination is continually used to justify actual human rights violations on Israel's part in the present day.

In any case, bring the fear of another Holocaust into the daylight, hold it up to scrutiny, and Israel's actions become a lot harder to defend.

 

[zero shift]

I'm overstating things and you are claiming that UKIP are historically the mainstream right of British politics and likewise FN for France?

Read my post again:

You are vastly overstating that mount of Socialist parties that focus a lot on the Palestinian/Israel conflict and vastly understanding the correlation of parties that lie on the right side of politics that do. It isn't just the US, UK (UKIP), French (National Front, to be fair they recently shifted), Belgium (Vlamaas Blok), and other right wing parties show support for Israel rather than Palestine. When looking at center right parties that holds true as well./B

I labeled that UKIP and the like were right wing parties, while center right parties like the Conservative Party of the U.K.

When I was in high school I had a friend who came from a very wealthy family. His family lived in a very exclusive part of Miami, but because they were Jewish they were not allowed to be members of the country club. This was in my lifetime and in Miami where there is a huge Jewish population. I also have personally had antisemitic experiences myself (which I will not detail here) and I am not religious nor do I wear any identifiable Jewish 'wear.' My elementary school was Jewish and they constantly had break-ins with people vandalizing the place with swastikas and other such things. None of this was ever in the news, and I am sure much of it still continues today. But I guess non-jews in this thread have not experienced anti-semitism first hand and thus they feel it does not exist. People posting as if the statistics referenced here are just some sort of conspiracy theory to get Jews to move to Israel. Even ignoring statistic from the FBI. :/

Nobody is saying antisemitism doesn't exist, they are just saying to the point is exaggerated. Saying "France and U.K. are too dangerous to go to because of antisemitism is ridiculous as many other posters (including Jewish ones) have called them out on. The nearest neighbor to this discussion is the thread where some people of the black community were claiming that American police homicides on their community was dangerous to the point of them being granted refugee status to Canada. That doesn't mean racism toward blacks doesn't happen, especially with the police, but context and perspective is needed. The statistics from the FBI are ignored because they are hilariously inaccurate due to the lack of reporting as I proved. Unless you believe only ONE hate crime happened throughout the year in all of Mississippi and only around 1,000 in a nation of 300,000,000 with the amount of hate groups nearly equaling that. Hardly a hate group if you only do one hate crime a year and sometimes none in your state.

 

[N.Domixis]

As a Jew, I am afraid to go to England or France due to anti-semitism. I wanna go to France so bad, but fear keeps me away.

Anti-semitism can be found anywhere though, like most forms of bigotry, discrimination, and hate.

How can people even tell your Jewish?

 

[SkeptiMism]

When I was in high school I had a friend who came from a very wealthy family. His family lived in a very exclusive part of Miami, but because they were Jewish they were not allowed to be members of the country club. This was in my lifetime and in Miami where there is a huge Jewish population. I also have personally had antisemitic experiences myself (which I will not detail here) and I am not religious nor do I wear any identifiable Jewish 'wear.' My elementary school was Jewish and they constantly had break-ins with people vandalizing the place with swastikas and other such things. None of this was ever in the news, and I am sure much of it still continues today. But I guess non-jews in this thread have not experienced anti-semitism first hand and thus they feel it does not exist. People posting as if the statistics referenced here are just some sort of conspiracy theory to get Jews to move to Israel. Even ignoring statistic from the FBI. :/

As I've said before, I do think it's sad how there are people coming into the thread and just drop something like "I've never seen any antisemitism, it doesn't exist", and your experiences are very unfortunate, but you should also be careful with those stats. Those stats have already been challenged in the thread (with other stats).

If you think they're wrong, then please counter them.

This is more that you're having trouble reconciling reality with your thoughts/feelings. Hate crimes are not widespread at all even with racial tensions as high as they are. If anything, reporting hate crimes, actually having them prosecuted has never been easier. Yes you're right that a lot do probably go unreported, but not to the extent you think. The US is far better now than it was in the 1950's.

The point of that was to show that people saying they rarely see antisemitism anymore, and yet 63% of all religious based hate crimes still are against Jews.

You quoted the guy who didn't bring up anything to support his stats. How about quoting the guy who did bring up some stats about it?

I'm not saying that guy (Nuu) is right either, but since they did bring up stats to challenge the data's accuracy, I'd like to see that challenged instead of people continuing to bring up the former stats like nothing happened (I know, it's easy to miss it, but now you know).

As for the 63% thing, while still extremely unfortunate and while it's not really your point here, people generally seem to bring it up like it's absolutely disproportional somehow, but that idea was heavily challenged. It seems like it's not disproportional at all in its full context. See post #144 for that.

I agree though that it is sad to see how people don't believe antisemitism is well and alive in many western countries still.

 

[storafötter]

The two times I was in Paris I encountered armed military guards not only outside a synagogue but also apartments. Within the same district. It is crazy and I realize that it is a big threat these days.

 

[Shuggananas]

The two times I was in Paris I encountered armed military guards not only outside a synagogue but also apartments. Within the same district. It is crazy and I realize that it is a big threat these days.

When was that though ? Dates and context matter

 

[Alx]

The two times I was in Paris I encountered armed military guards not only outside a synagogue but also apartments. Within the same district. It is crazy and I realize that it is a big threat these days.

Those are standard measures in the "anti terror" program, you have the same patrols in public spaces like train stations. It's just a matter of precaution, synagogues aren't actually the prime target of anti-semitic attacks.

 

[Slaythe]

That's not what is being discussed here and you know it. It's a specific discussion about how anti-semites call themselves "anti-Zionists" because it is more socially acceptable to pretend that your hatred of Jews is really a hatred of the Israeli government.

That's not the same as saying that all criticism of the Israeli government is anti-semitic, and left-wing people are just as likely to trot out this obfuscating crap as people like the ADL are to do the reverse.

Lol wut ?

So now you can't be anti Zionist without being antisemitic ?!

That s a stretch. Many people have nothing against Jews yet hate the Israel bullshit.

 

[Chairman Yang]

As I've said before, I do think it's sad how there are people coming into the thread and just drop something like "I've never seen any antisemitism, it doesn't exist", and your experiences are very unfortunate, but you should also be careful with those stats. Those stats have already been challenged in the thread (with other stats).

If you think they're wrong, then please counter them.

I don't think the FBI stats have been countered at all.

The first post I think you're referring to, by Nuu, talks about how the hate crime statistics are unreliable because he believes they're severely underreporting the actual number of hate crimes. He's basing this, as far as I can tell, on his own gut feeling that the stats must be wrong and much higher than reported. He also doesn't seem to consider that these are the reported hate crimes; it would make sense that the figures would be higher if the unreported incidents were somehow captured.

Ok, so I don't think anyone has shown a good reason to throw out the FBI stats (which are, by the way, legally required to be collected, and would mean serious consequences for the Attorney General and the FBI if they were really fraudulent). But let's say NeoGAF poster Nuu really has uncovered the truth based on his gut feeling--that these stats underreport actual hate crimes.

So what? Even that wouldn't be enough. After all, if hate crimes are underreported and the real figures are, say, 100% higher, then anti-Semitic hate crimes are also 100% higher! Unless Nuu wants to make the argument that anti-Semitic hate crimes are actually overreported while every other type is underreported, the FBI figures are just as concerning.
---
The other post, by phisheep, has issues as well. I've copied it here:

I don't find that at all surprising (or, indeed, particularly worrying), since there is a very small proportion of the US population that is potentially the subject of religion-based hate crimes to start with.

According to Pew Research, 71% of America is Christian of one sort or another, 23% atheist/agnostic/don't care and about 6% minority religions. Of these, there's only three (I think) that sometimes be distinguished by sight usually because of dress conventions - that's Jews (1.9%), Muslims (0.9%) and Sikhs (so few they are not categorised in the Pew data). I don't know about you, but I'd be hard-pressed to identify a buddhist or a hindu by sight.

So I'd kind of expect, given that there are religious hate crime, for about two-thirds of them to be against Jews and one-third against Muslims - which is what the figures show.

That's not to excuse the crimes of course. Hate crime of any sort is bad, as is any crime. But there's nothing here to suggest that Jews are disproportionately at risk in the USA.

I have two criticisms of this analysis:
1. How can Jewish people be distinguished by sight, but Hindus can't? Jewish people are famously assimilated in the US, and I'm really wondering how one could be picked up in a crowd; especially more easily than a Hindu (who are overwhelmingly brown people). If you're talking about the comparatively small number of Jewish people who wear religious garb, that's disturbing--because this small number of people is still drawing a large number of hate crimes.

2. The figures don't show that two-thirds of the religious hate crimes are against Jews and one-third are against Muslims. From the report:

56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.
16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.

I'm not sure where phisheep got his two-thirds/one-third split from. The Jewish population is double the Muslim population, but has 3.5 times the number of hate crimes committed against them.

 

[Crash Station]

That's another thing, I'm not sure how the under-reporting thing is an argument. We're not talking about sexual abuse cases where under-reporting actually does fuck with the single stat that's being looked at. We're talking about one type of case against another, where under-reporting would imply there's a relatively consistent number of growth among both categories, as is how sample sizes work.

 

[Particle Physicist]

As I've said before, I do think it's sad how there are people coming into the thread and just drop something like "I've never seen any antisemitism, it doesn't exist", and your experiences are very unfortunate, but you should also be careful with those stats. Those stats have already been challenged in the thread (with other stats).

If you think they're wrong, then please counter them.

I will counter with the actual stats of actual reported cases from the FBI. Nobody in this thread has posted anything that remotely backs up the claim that those stats are garbage other than using their own preconceived notions. Give me something. An actual analysis about the stats, with research that points to their inconsistencies. Anything other than, lol no way are they right. cosmicblizzard also brings up a good point. Even if you think there is major underreporting going on, there is enough of a sample size in those stats to see actual trends taking place, such as the majority of religious hate crimes are against Jews.

I find it obscene that people are dismissing actual hard numbers here and Jews have to convince others that those number are in fact true and not false, misleading or some sort of conspiracy in order to push people to move to Israel.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Yeah it seems some Israeli organizations are trying to push this agenda. I don't know why.

Here's a counter-documentary from "Envoyé Spécial" (In French) to demonstrate if it is dangerous to wear a kippa in Paris and sensitive neighborhoods. He had no problem whatsoever. It was to counter another video where a Jew walking in Paris was getting insulted left and right. Thing is this Jewish person was a Sionist militant, ex-member of the communication services for the Israeli Army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdGk70ulco

So some non-Jew decided that Jews are not trustworthy. He decided that some Jewish guys videotaped experience was untrustworthy. Thus he had to pretend he was Jewish and make his own video to prove that the Jewish guy was lying? Have you seen similar videos 'disproving' the countless other videos of people walking through streets of (insert location here) and receiving harassment because of how they are perceived? I haven't, are they out there? It's pretty messed up for people to do that.

This thread is really grossing me out. :/

 

[Jag]

I find it obscene that people are dismissing actual hard numbers here and Jews have to convince others that those number are in fact true and not false, misleading or some sort of conspiracy in order to push people to move to Israel.

It's part of the double standard that seems to apply to Jews. I have no question in my mind that racism and anti-Muslim attacks exist, are growing and are serious issues that need to be addressed, even though I have never personally witnessed it (unless you count that asshole Trump I guess). But when Jews say the same thing and back it up with actual facts, people feel the need to challenge or dismiss it.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Lol wut ?

So now you can't be anti Zionist without being antisemitic ?!

That s a stretch. Many people have nothing against Jews yet hate the Israel bullshit.

That's not what I said.

I feel like this is the left's version of the right complaining about "outrage culture," where there are more anti-Zionists complaining about how all criticism of Israel is shouted down as anti-semitic than there are actual people doing that.

Also similar to outrage culture complaints, they make sure to leech all nuance out of dissenting opinions to turn them into "he said anti-Zionism = anti-semitism."

Edit: I mean, in the actual post you quoted:

That's not what is being discussed here and you know it. It's a specific discussion about how anti-semites call themselves "anti-Zionists" because it is more socially acceptable to pretend that your hatred of Jews is really a hatred of the Israeli government.

That's not the same as saying that all criticism of the Israeli government is anti-semitic, and left-wing people are just as likely to trot out this obfuscating crap as people like the ADL are to do the reverse.

 

[User 73706]

England is a little strange. Theres rising islamaphobia, so much so that it's now recorded as such and not hate crime, I'm sure there's anti semetism but not anymore than the usual racism/bigotry that can go on. We're quite protective of our different cultures, I think were quite good at it. People just get on, theres nothing so serious where you should be afraid.

We have Jewish communities getting on normally here. You shouldn't read into the hyperbole

wut

 

[M.D]

One can surely acknowledge the reality and magnitude of the Holocaust, or that anti-Semitism still exists, without believing that there is any credible threat of mass Jewish extermination in 2016.

If people want to argue the contrary, they can and should (and thankfully they did in the case of the Iran deal, and even more thankfully they lost the argument there), but it's absolutely an assertion that should be brought into the daylight and held up to scrutiny, not merely left implicit in pro-Israel narratives.

Massacres on a grand scale are taking place in the world today yet you feel safe to sit here and say that Jews face no real danger? You're saying this while a leading candidate running for presdient of the United States in 2016 just called for a ban of a certain religion from the country, but you come here and pretend that Jews are somehow immune to that?

Are willing to sit here and say that in X number of years from now Jews will not be the used a scapegoat again? What do you think it would take for the masses to turn their hatred towards Jews again?
Who do you think the right-wing parties in Europe would focus right now if it wasn't for the Muslim immigration in recent history?

You're living in some fantasy world where everything is fine and dandy. There are still millions upon millions of people who hate us. If you don't recognize that and the dangers it possess, you are blind.

 

[Jag]

Massacres on a grand scale are taking place in the world today yet you feel safe to sit here and say that Jews face no real danger? You're saying this while a leading candidate running for presdient of the United States in 2016 just called for a ban of a certain religion from the country, but you come here and pretend that Jews are somehow immune to that?

Are willing to sit here and say that in X number of years from now Jews will not be the used a scapegoat again? What do you think it would take for the masses to turn their hatred towards Jews again?
Who do you think the right-wing parties in Europe would focus right now if it wasn't for the Muslim immigration in recent history?

You're living in some fantasy world where everything is fine and dandy. There are still millions upon millions of people who hate us. If you don't recognize that and the dangers it possess, you are blind.

This. This is why so many Jews fight for civil rights. This is why they are supportive of helping refugees. Why they are scared shitless of a right-centric Europe.

We have seen what humans are capable of and if you don't think it can happen again (to anyone), well then you haven't been paying attention.

 

[SkeptiMism]

-

Thanks. I think you bring up good points. I do agree that Nuu's posts did seem pretty simple and to be honest, I'm not really not sure what his stats are about. I did want them to be challenged though (I might've done it myself but I'm having fever for the fifth day in row now so I really can't bother - challenging other people to do it is easier).

You seem to be very much on point about phisheep's post.

It's part of the double standard that seems to apply to Jews. I have no question in my mind that racism and anti-Muslim attacks exist, are growing and are serious issues that need to be addressed, even though I have never personally witnessed it (unless you count that asshole Trump I guess). But when Jews say the same thing and back it up with actual facts, people feel the need to challenge or dismiss it.

It seems to be a complex problem. It'd seem that Jews don't talk about it as much as some other groups, but then again it might very well be also that people just aren't so interested to hear (which is very unfortunate). Another thing is that Jews really aren't very visible as a group - I'm not sure if I've ever seen a single Jew here in Finland (apart from the one politician who's Jewish, and that's only on media) so I can sort of understand that it's hard to believe they face a lot of violence (again, very unfortunate, but in a twisted way it's typical of people to ignore things if they can't even see the group at all in the first place).

Regarding stats, personally I think it's good to be very skeptical of any stats (whether it's about Christians, muslims, atheists, Jews or something completely different). They often tend to be very contextual.

Anyway, I've certainly learned a lot from this thread. It has been very educative.

 

[Father_Brain]

Lots to unpack here.

Massacres on a grand scale are taking place in the world today yet you feel safe to sit here and say that Jews face no real danger?

Massacres against Jews, on an grand scale? Where is that taking place in the world today?

And no, of course I wouldn't say that Jews "face no real danger." Anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic violence are vary much real. But the likes of the Hyper Cacher shooting, however horrific, do not provide nearly sufficient justification for a Holocaust II narrative. That act, and most present-day incidents of anti-Semitic violence in Europe referenced in the OP, are perpetrated by Muslim minorities - groups which are heavily marginalized in nearly every respect in European society - and are roundly and rightly condemned by the government of every state in which they occur.

Obviously, this does not in any way justify these acts or make them less terrible, but it does make them significantly different from the long history of atrocities against European Jewry up to and including the Holocaust, which tended to be committed by members of the ethnic/religious majority, with tacit or explicit backing from the state.

I do not dispute that anti-Semitism is a greater problem in Europe than in the US, or that anti-Semitic violence might be on the rise there. But it simply does not logically follow that the necessary cultural and political climate for large-scale persecution and violence directed at Jews in these countries exists, or is in danger of coming into existence.

You're saying this while a leading candidate running for presdient of the United States in 2016 just called for a ban of a certain religion from the country, but you come here and pretend that Jews are somehow immune to that?

Are willing to sit here and say that in X number of years from now Jews will not be the used a scapegoat again? What do you think it would take for the masses to turn their hatred towards Jews again?

By every measure I can think of, Jews are far better integrated into the mainstream of Western society, and have far more cultural, political, and economic influence (especially in the US), than at any prior point in the history of Diaspora Jewry. I would say Jews are about as well-integrated here in the States as Irish Catholics - a group which themselves faced significant discrimination in the not-too-distant past, yet one which no one argues is in any credible danger of becoming a persecuted minority again.

So yes, I really do feel quite comfortable in saying that large-scale persecution of Jews in the US or Western Europe cannot and will not happen anytime in the foreseeable future. I think it would take some completely absurd scenario, like Israel declaring war on the US, for that to change, and possibly not even that.

Who do you think the right-wing parties in Europe would focus right now if it wasn't for the Muslim immigration in recent history?

Another minority much less well integrated than Jews, I'd imagine.

But in any case, Muslim immigration to Europe is very much real, and if you're trying to argue that fear of a second Holocaust is completely rational, you shouldn't have to rely on impossible what-if scenarios.

You're living in some fantasy world where everything is fine and dandy. There are still millions upon millions of people who hate us. If you don't recognize that and the dangers it possess, you are blind.

Of course there are millions of people who hate Jews. But hate alone can't bring about another Holocaust; that requires both intent and capability.

If you want to argue that there is a group or nation out there that possesses both the intent and capability to murder millions of Jews, or is in danger of acquiring the capability, by all means, you're welcome to make that argument (as Bibi and his allies tried and - happily - failed to do in the debate over the Iran deal). But make it on the basis of facts.

---

Anyway: By all means, Jews absolutely should be vigilant about anti-Semitism. And I wouldn't even have a problem with the fear of a second Holocaust, irrational as I find it, if it were purely in the context of vigilance against anti-Semitism or bigotry in general.

But of course, it's not purely in that context at all. To the contrary, that fear is a huge part of one of the most common pro-Israel narratives: that Jews are a perpetually despised minority perpetually on the brink of extinction, and that Israel is all that stands between them and a hypothetical second Holocaust.

And sadly, that fear-driven narrative has very non-hypothetical consequences: actual warmongering against Iran; rationalization of actual atrocities committed by Israel like Protective Edge; justification for the continuation of the occupation and the oppression of the Palestinians. So if I seem contemptuous of it, that's why.

 

[Jag]

But of course, it's not purely in that context at all. To the contrary, that fear is a huge part of one of the most common pro-Israel narratives: that Jews are a perpetually despised minority perpetually on the brink of extinction, and that Israel is all that stands between them and a hypothetical second Holocaust.

And that is why there is such a disconnect between Jews who legitimately fear the rise of antisemitism and others who say just to ignore the ignorant bigots.

The Holocaust was just the latest in centuries of attempted elimination of the Jews. Finally the industrial revolution enabled Europe to do what they were unable to do for centuries. The Inquisition, the Edict of Expulsion, the Protocols of Elder Zion, The Final Solution. The list goes on and on.

Jews have said never again. And this time we will not die quietly as much as it may inconvenience some nations of the world.

To say it can never happen again is to be completely ignorant of thousands of years of history. History will and does repeat itself.

 

[Father_Brain]

And that is why there is such a disconnect between Jews who legitimately fear the rise of antisemitism and others who say just to ignore the ignorant bigots.

The Holocaust was just the latest in centuries of attempted elimination of the Jews. Finally the industrial revolution enabled Europe to do what they were unable to do for centuries. The Inquisition, the Edict of Expulsion, the Protocols of Elder Zion, The Final Solution. The list goes on and on.

Jews have said never again. And this time we will not die quietly as much as it may inconvenience some nations of the world.

To say it can never happen again is to be completely ignorant of thousands of years of history. History will and does repeat itself.

You really should reread the entire post you only quoted part of, as I explained why the nature of anti-Semitic violence and the status quo of Diaspora Jewry is fundamentally different than at any of the points in history you mentioned.

But yes, I reject the backwards-looking narrative that Jewish history should be defined mainly in terms of the persecution we've endured. And I say that as a Jew who grew up with that narrative.

 

[E92 M3]

When I went to France, the antisemitism was huge. UK wasn't too bad, though. Us Jews just want to make money and leave in peace