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[More Fun To Compute]

are there hard numbers on which groups are most likely to attack jews in europe?

Mostly Antisemites. People in the UK have fairly positive opinions of Jews unless you are talking only about far right racial/religious purists or whatever. I think that statistics show treatment becoming worse when middle east conflicts are in the news more. The people who react most negatively in these cases are left wingers so I'm assuming there must be many left wing religious bigots in the UK. I wouldn't want to profile too much.

 

[pulsemyne]

Living here in London all my life, I've come to the conclusion that people actually consider it socially acceptable to mock Jews. I've seen it hundreds of times at school, college, uni, work, social gatherings and even in public.

And it's not just people of an Arabic origin who do it.

We do like taking the piss out of everyone. We even openly mock the largest religion in the UK.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Hmm, I wonder how much the rise of right wing extremism in France influences these figures...?

As a Jew, I am afraid to go to England or France due to anti-semitism. I wanna go to France so bad, but fear keeps me away.

Anti-semitism can be found anywhere though, like most forms of bigotry, discrimination, and hate.

The chances of you being attacked for being Jewish in England are pretty damn low. Perhaps it might increase slightly if you are an orthodox jew and dress accordingly. Otherwise, how are people going to know if you are a tourist? It is not a major topic of conversation...

 

[Starsailor]

I think folks need to recognize that it's a problem and also recognize that it can be really hard to see it happening if you aren't part of the affected group. If Jewish people are saying that it's happening, it's happening.

For christ sake, there is a violence too against Christians even in France and they don't cry everytime! It's BAD i know and it's make me angry to see jew being attacked. But guys come on i will say it again, and again, and again... you're making a big snowball with few facts.
even the "right wing rising" in France is bullshit, Le Pen and her pals didn't win any regions in France in the last election.

Everyone are making conjecture everytime with actuality, with opression and making bad news from nowhere.
I mean, since one year it's like "world war III" is going to begin EACH DAY.

Come on...

 

[paperboywriter]

Mostly Antisemites. People in the UK have fairly positive opinions of Jews unless you are talking only about far right racial/religious purists or whatever. I think that statistics show treatment becoming worse when middle east conflicts are in the news more. The people who react most negatively in these cases are left wingers so I'm assuming there must be many left wing religious bigots in the UK. I wouldn't want to profile too much.

yeah but defending palastine and anti-semitism are differnt things, are they not? maybe those people use some of the anti-semite lingo in there propaganda, but not for the same reasons why nazis or muslims use it. the reason why they are angry at jews are not based on historic prejudices, it has political reasons.

 

[pgtl_10]

How is antisemitism defined in the studies?

 

[pgtl_10]

Factions is probably the better word. The Fatah who are in control of the west bank and the Hamas who are controlling Gaza. Currently the Hamas is trying to take over the west bank as well and the Fatah are trying to stop that.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/pa-arrests-scores-hamas-members-west-bank-150704070359333.html
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. My point was that a lot of the people who call themselves "anti-zionists" or "anti-israeli" don't actually know anything about the state of afairs in the middle east and just use it as an excuse to hate someone, in this case jews who aren't even israeli or zionists.

True. Depends on who you ask though. Most Palestinian supporters I've read support the Palestinians in general and don't take sides between factions which is how it should be. Factions have internal issues that are often not related to conflict. People tend use Hamas as a bogeyman as a way to stop support for Palestinians. You can oppose Hamas and Zionism. I do oppose both as well as Fath.

 

[Starsailor]

How is antisemitism defined in the studies?

well what study?
Psychology?
Theology? Politics? Sociology?


Because it's different

 

[pgtl_10]

I posted a link to a government study earlier:





Much of that assessment comes from the fact that criticism of Israel, especially from the Left, ist often times disproportionate and non-factual. It is equally telling to see that this tiny piece of land und a democratic government has been singled out by the Left many times over the last decade, while countries with far worse situations and totalitarian/fascist governments have comparatively been ignored. In parts, many on the Left have bought into the narrative of Israel's neighbors who have historically opposed Jewish immigration on anti-semitic grounds, because the enemy of my enemy (the "American hegemony") is my friend. This is why people like Augstein are getting the honor. Some argue that they are fellow travelers of anti-semitism; not without reason, in my opinion.

Sorry but what you sound like is common whataboutism.

Israel unfairly singled out is a common Zionism argument which doesn't take into account that Israel is also singled out for insane support.

The latent antisemitism study is sad and interesting. How does it compare to latent racism about other groups?

 

[diamount]

As a Jew, I am afraid to go to England or France due to anti-semitism. I wanna go to France so bad, but fear keeps me away.

Anti-semitism can be found anywhere though, like most forms of bigotry, discrimination, and hate.

Stay out of Bradford and you'll be fine.

 

[pgtl_10]

Sure thing.



You've probably heard of Hamas right? Did you know that most of their charter is quotes from the Quran and Hadith?

For example, they quote this Hadith:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.



I do.



Actually that was in response to the Hyper Cacher islamic terror attack that happened at the same time as Charlie Hebdo.

Hama's does not have a charter. It was one guy who claimed to create a charter. It was never adopted.

 

[Quixzlizx]

yeah but defending palastine and anti-semitism are differnt things, are they not? maybe those people use some of the anti-semite lingo in there propaganda, but not for the same reasons why nazis or muslims use it. the reason why they are angry at jews are not based on historic prejudices, it has political reasons.

The point is that not all Jews are Israelis. Would it be OK to blame all Muslims for everything ISIS/Saudi Arabia/Iran does? Yes, I know a lot of people do that, and GAF is very quick to denounce those people.

 

[pgtl_10]

Neither is Israel but at least people are not subjected to hate crimes like in Europe

Which people?

 

[dan2026]

Never seen or heard of any real anti-semitism here in the UK

We do like to take the piss though. That's the British way.
And lets face it religion is easy to take the piss out of.

 

[pgtl_10]

The point is that not all Jews are Israelis. Would it be OK to blame all Muslims for everything ISIS/Saudi Arabia/Iran does? Yes, I know a lot of people do that, and GAF is very quick to denounce those people.

I agree with this sentiment. It's why the terms "Jewish State" and "Islamic State" don't actually help Jews and Muslims. I feel the governments try to speak for people which leads to the stereotypes such as the one above.

 

[Check valve]

Not surprising, if you look at hate crimes committed in the US nearly half of all religious hate crimes are committed against Jews.

 

[pgtl_10]

Personally I get annoyed when people attack Jews because they know I'm Palestinian. It's disgusting. I've seen antisemitism in the United States. I never understood it. Some Jews are good people, some are bad just like any other group. Being Jewish doesn't define them.

Furthermore people assume Jews are one group when they are several and are influenced by the surrounding culture like everyone else.

Then you have the religious bigots who only see Jews "chosen people" and not actual human beings. For them, Jews are a religious means to their religious ends. They use terms such "Judeo-Christianity" which automatically assume what Judaism is and doesn't actually take account Jewish input.

Antisemitism comes in many forms and I find it bizarre.

 

[Oriel]

The majority of anti-Semiticism is, alas, coming from Europe's minority Muslim community where violent Islamism is being espoused. Many right wing, ultra nationalist parties in Europe tend to be somewhat pro-Israel and by extension pro-Jewish, their hatred being directed at Muslim communities. The English Defence League for example has a Jewish wing.

 

[Valhelm]

Things were not so smooth there either. There were quotas for the entry of Jews in universities for a while

Certainly, and anti-Semitism still exists stateside. But Jewish Americans are very integrated and very well-tolerated, especially compared to Jewish minorities in Europe or elsewhere.

 

[Father_Brain]

Israel isn't singlehandedly responsible for the persistence of anti-Semitism, but it sure as fuck has exacerbated it and it shouldn't be taboo to say so.

It also bears noting that in collectively blaming all Jews for Israel's actions, actual (as opposed to imagined) anti-Semites make the same assumption that many ardent defenders of Israel do: that Jewish identity and support for Israel's actions are inextricably intertwined.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Israel isn't singlehandedly responsible for the persistence of anti-Semitism, but it sure as fuck has exacerbated it and it shouldn't be taboo to say so.

"9/11/London/Cologne isn't singlehandedly responsible for the persistence of Islamophobia, but it sure as fuck has exacerbated it and it shouldn't be taboo to say so."

It seems like most of the people on the left who proudly say the first one aren't jumping out of their seats to say the latter.

 

[Red Blaster]

I recommend you the second last chapter of Nick Cohen's (himself a Lefty) book "What's Left" if you want to read a more elaborate formulation of that argument to counter-balance your nuanced reading of my post.

nick cohen....as in spectator blogger and dogged bush/blair defender pro-iraq war nick cohen? 'leftist'? perhaps only to marks like yourself.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

As a Jew, I am afraid to go to England or France due to anti-semitism. I wanna go to France so bad, but fear keeps me away.

Anti-semitism can be found anywhere though, like most forms of bigotry, discrimination, and hate.

With that line of thinking, nobody would go anywhere.

 

[ElTorro]

Sorry but what you sound like is common whataboutism.

Only if one wants to deflect warranted criticism, which is at least not my intention. There are obvious reasons for criticism.

At the same time, it is a fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict has received massive attention over the last 70 years and beyond. This might be due to the fact that Israel is an open society where the media has good access to information about atrocious events, while totalitarian states are much more closed and authoritarian when it comes to the free press. But there is also an ideological component that can devolve from "standard" anti-Americanism/anti-Imperialism to narratives that are virtually identical to classic anti-Semitc tropes. For instance, I've read quite often that a "Jewish control of the US government" is to be "blamed" for the American support of Israel. A version of a classic conspiracy theory ("It's the Jews, it's the Freemasons! They control the world!") that has been around for over a century.

I am not saying that all criticism from the Left is like that, but there is enough of that to see why some people, especially Jewish groups, are seeing a problem with some trends on the Left and draw parallels to anti-Semitism. I don't have a particular strong opinion either way, but I have read several books over the last 2-3 years on this topic, including the entire spectrum from Edward Said to Alan Dershowitz, and I can conceded this point.

nick cohen....as in spectator blogger and dogged bush/blair defender pro-iraq war nick cohen? 'leftist'? perhaps only to marks like yourself.

You are one of those who like to discredit a source by looking it up on Wikipedia instead of reading the source itself, right?

 

[Nuu]

Yea of course:

My secondary school had a lot of Jewish students. They were so badly bullied that 3 or 4 in my class left. One day a Jewish girl in the year below got her kick-boxer friend to come and threaten a few guys and girls who were bullying her.

At college. a guy's giving a presentation on Jews during the Russian Revolution. The first slide has a cartoon image of a big nosed Jewish man holding money. Most of the class laugh, including the teacher.

Another day outside college, a Jewish man walks passed, someone coughs *fucking Jew*, everybody laughs.

At Uni, I'm giving a presentation on European Anti-Semitism prior to WW2, people smirk at some of the anti-Semitic quotes that I read out from the intellectuals of the time.

Always outside my Uni there was fundraising for Palestine, they were always talking shit about Jews and yet I never saw anyone confront them.

At work a few months ago, the women I'm working under received a phone call, she joked after that he had a Jewish sounding name so she might not take the case on from fear of not being paid.

While Christmas shopping this year, a Jewish man walks past a white couple. The husband says "I bet he was looking for the discount section".

Even in Cyprus this year, a man come over to the burger bar, the chef assumed he was Cypriot so spoke Greek to him, the customer replies in English and says he's Israeli, the chef's face drops and he says "Fucking Jew" to his friend in Greek.

Are you serious? That is the extent of racism you faced to have you believe that Europe is becoming fiercely anti-semetic? I'm Puerto Rican and Arabic living in America, and the amount of shit I've gotten from people on both sides far eclipses anything from your examples. Yet I won't say that America is a particularly bad place to be either of those two things.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I can certainly buy there is an amount of anti-semitism that's suprisingly large in a lot of countries. I feel like Jews are, for whatever reason, a lot less visible as a minority than for example Muslims. Then again, a lot of Jews don't wear the kippah so it's not like it's always easy to recognize them.

However, with stats and sources regarding anti-semitism you really need to be careful. For example the source in the OP, The Jewish Agency, really isn't anything trustworthy. As another example, people have cited in this thread how the Jews in the US are victims of religious hate crimes in about 2/3 of cases, but someone already showed how that stat in the full context really doesn't seem disproportional at all (while it's obviously sad nevertheless).

Not surprising, if you look at hate crimes committed in the US nearly half of all religious hate crimes are committed against Jews.

See:

I don't find that at all surprising (or, indeed, particularly worrying), since there is a very small proportion of the US population that is potentially the subject of religion-based hate crimes to start with.

According to Pew Research, 71% of America is Christian of one sort or another, 23% atheist/agnostic/don't care and about 6% minority religions. Of these, there's only three (I think) that sometimes be distinguished by sight usually because of dress conventions - that's Jews (1.9%), Muslims (0.9%) and Sikhs (so few they are not categorised in the Pew data). I don't know about you, but I'd be hard-pressed to identify a buddhist or a hindu by sight.

So I'd kind of expect, given that there are religious hate crime, for about two-thirds of them to be against Jews and one-third against Muslims - which is what the figures show.

That's not to excuse the crimes of course. Hate crime of any sort is bad, as is any crime. But there's nothing here to suggest that Jews are disproportionately at risk in the USA.

---

For christ sake, there is a violence too against Christians even in France and they don't cry everytime! It's BAD i know and it's make me angry to see jew being attacked. But guys come on i will say it again, and again, and again... you're making a big snowball with few facts.
even the "right wing rising" in France is bullshit, Le Pen and her pals didn't win any regions in France in the last election.

Everyone are making conjecture everytime with actuality, with opression and making bad news from nowhere.
I mean, since one year it's like "world war III" is going to begin EACH DAY.

Come on...

Making such comparisons without context isn't very meaningful. What's the share of Christianity in France compared to other religions? What's the amount of hate crimes targeted towards it? What's the amount of hate crimes targeted towards other religions? How significant are the hate crimes?

The point here is that if Christians are the target of religious hate crimes in France very rarely, it's very natural there's not that much outrage about it. If Jews are a target far more often (proportionally), then it makes sense that they also talk about it more.

Finally, I think it's really stupid to label it as crying if people talk about their bad experiences. That's exactly what you're doing there in case you didn't realize - "For christ sake, there is a violence too against Christians even in France and they don't cry everytime!".

I do agree with that for example Huelen's fears seem very unfounded and that Hix's anecdotes aren't very helpful, but your posts really aren't any helpful either.

 

[zero shift]

Only if one wants to deflect warranted criticism, which is at least not my intention. There are obvious reasons for criticism.

At the same time, it is a fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict has received massive attention over the last 70 years and beyond. This might be due to the fact that Israel is an open society where the media has good access to information about atrocious events, while totalitarian states are much more closed and authoritarian when it comes to the free press. But there is also an ideological component that can devolve from "standard" anti-Americanism/anti-Imperialism to narratives that are virtually identical to classic anti-Semitc tropes. For instance, I've read quite often that a "Jewish control of the US government" is to be "blamed" for the American support of Israel. A version of a classic conspiracy theory ("It's the Jews, it's the Freemasons! They control the world!") that has been around for over a century.

This is ridiculous. First off, you could make the same argument with the how the right wing has always been Pro-Israel. The reason why much of the left is Pro-Palestine despite the conflict being 70 years old is because the conflict has been in the news constantly for 70 years. "The Left" doesn't make the Israel/Palestine conflict relevant, the media does. "The Left" reacts to the news just like any other demographic.

Second, "but there are worse countries" is a stupid argument. By that logic "The Left" should have never cared about South Africa because what about Myanmar? Hell, why did people even care about the Holocaust, I mean Stalin killed so many more people then Hitler... Not to mention you can care about more than one thing. China gets a fuck ton of shit from the left wing, hence why that faux factory story gained so much traction a few years back and Google got so much shit for supporting China. North Korea was constantly in the news and is country both sides hate. Not to mention it isn't like Palestine is a core tenet platform of the left. Nowhere near as much as Israel is in the right. That alone makes your argument ridiculous. Third the "Jewish controlled bankers" is an argument the fringest of the fringe Americans have made for over a century. How does that demonstrate a rise of anti-semetism exactly?

 

[Red Blaster]

You are one of those who like to discredit a source by looking it up on Wikipedia instead of reading the source itself, right?

i dont know who 'those' are. nick cohen is a fairly active writer for the guardian and mostly writes about what a doodoo head jeremy corbyn is and other psuedo-intellectual regurgitations of samuel huntington theses.

 

[Xun]

Living in Britain, I am having a very hard time seeing the rise of anti-semitism. Admittedly, I'm not Jewish, but I haven't seen any sentiment of hatred towards the Jewish religion rise... I can't even recall a time it has been brought up. Of course, it's possible it's a regional issue, but it is in no way, shape or form indicative of my experiences in my fairly large city.

Pretty much.

The only hatred I've seen (which is in my opinion justifiable) is that against Israel.

 

[Father_Brain]

"9/11/London/Cologne isn't singlehandedly responsible for the persistence of Islamophobia, but it sure as fuck has exacerbated it and it shouldn't be taboo to say so."

It seems like most of the people on the left who proudly say the first one aren't jumping out of their seats to say the latter.

Those terrorist acts weren't perpetrated by a state entity that has a figurative and literal blank check from the US, nor by one that claims to be a bastion of secular liberal Western democracy every time its human rights violations were brought up.

Moreover, the notion that Muslim identity is inextricably intertwined with support for ISIS et al. is not exactly mainstream in Western Islam to anything approaching the extent that support for Israel is within Diaspora Jewish institutions.

Obviously, none of this justifies anti-Semitic violence, but it's simply not intellectually honest to claim that there is no motivation behind it other than abstract, ideological hatred of Jews.

 

[paperboywriter]

I really think there is a difference between anti-semetism and criticising the state of israel. the groups that do one of the other are basically opposite on the political spectrum. (at least here in europe)

 

[Quixzlizx]

Those terrorist acts weren't perpetrated by a state entity that has a figurative and literal blank check from the US, nor by one that claims to be a bastion of secular liberal Western democracy every time its human rights violations were brought up.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Jews.

Moreover, the notion that Muslim identity is inextricably intertwined with support for ISIS et al. is not exactly mainstream in Western Islam to anything approaching the extent that support for Israel is within Diaspora Jewish institutions.

Obviously, none of this justifies anti-Semitic violence, but it's simply not intellectually honest to claim that there is no motivation behind it other than abstract, ideological hatred of Jews.

There are plenty of links between Islamist terrorist groups and Islamic "institutions."

I agree that one of us is being intellectually dishonest. Basically, anti-Zionists like yourself claim not to be anti-Semitic, but they go out of their way to try to paint Jews as a whole as Zionists, therefore allowing themselves to be "anti-Zionist" against all Jews.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

This is ridiculous. First off, you could make the same argument with the how the right wing has always been Pro-Israel. The reason why much of the left is Pro-Palestine despite the conflict being 70 years old is because the conflict has been in the news constantly for 70 years. "The Left" doesn't make the Israel/Palestine conflict relevant, the media does. "The Left" reacts to the news just like any other demographic.

Second, "but there are worse countries" is a stupid argument. By that logic "The Left" should have never cared about South Africa because what about Myanmar? Hell, why did people even care about the Holocaust, I mean Stalin killed so many more people then Hitler... Not to mention you can care about more than one thing. China gets a fuck ton of shit from the left wing, hence why that faux factory story gained so much traction a few years back and Google got so much shit for supporting China. North Korea was constantly in the news and is country both sides hate. Not to mention it isn't like Palestine is a core tenet platform of the left. Nowhere near as much as Israel is in the right. That alone makes your argument ridiculous. Third the "Jewish controlled bankers" is an argument the fringest of the fringe Americans have made for over a century. How does that demonstrate a rise of anti-semetism exactly?

Politically the positions on Israel are different in the USA to Europe. I think that the right in Europe does not really care about Israel that much. While the cause of Palestine is a major cause for, at least, the hard left. In the USA there seems to be something of a mirror image of this with Israel being a traditionally a major issue for the right wing. Although there does appear to now be an emergent hard left in the USA that is much more pro Palestine and generally hostile to any negative representation of Muslims.

The cases of Stalin and Hitler are interesting for the European left. For the longest time the left in Europe would deny the brutality of Stalin's regime and would go out of their way to jump on anything that hinted that negative stories about what was happening were lies. A famous journalist who was a "betrayer of the left" on this issue was George Orwell.

Similarly for Hitler people in the left anti war platform would say that his treatment of Jews was actually justified because Jews as a whole were to be blamed for the financial crisis in Germany. This was not really a fringe belief and many still hang onto these beliefs to this day. On neogaf I have even seen people happily say that Jewish people as a whole are "legitimate targets" which seems crazy to me.

 

[LyleLanley]

This thread became a bit strange. There seem to be quite a few non-Jews trying to telling us how little anti-semitism they've seen.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

This thread became a bit strange. There seem to be quite a few non-Jews trying to telling us how little anti-semitism they've seen.

Is it really that strange?

Non-Muslims are less likely to notice Islamophobia.

People who aren't black won't notice racism against black people like black people will.

People who aren't Jewish are less likely to notice anti-Semitism.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

I'm completely bewildered by this thread. So far, in contrast to actual figures showing swells in anti-semitism alongside a demonstrated growth in Jews moving to Israel, we have the following counter arguments:

1. I'm on Xbox Live every day and never hear any anti-semitic remarks, so it mustn't be true.

2. In all my years as an Englishman I've never witnessed a Jew being lynched, so it mustn't be true.

3. It might be true, but who cares, it's Israel's fault.

4. It's true but I still believe Islamophobia is worse because I'm a leftist and institutions like the FBI and CST are lying.

I'm not sure what further discussion can really be had at this point.

This thread became a bit strange. There seem to be quite a few non-Jews trying to telling us how little anti-semitism they've seen.

Meanwhile, actual Jews are reporting actual anti-semitism. It's bizarre.

 

[LyleLanley]

Is it really that strange?

Non-Muslims are less likely to notice Islamophobia.

People who aren't black won't notice racism against black people like black people will.

People who aren't Jewish are less likely to notice anti-Semitism.

Absolutely, that's why it would be odd for someone to go into a thread about one of those topics and tell them how they've never seen any racism against black people or Islamophobia.

 

[Kinokou]

Is it really that strange?

Non-Muslims are less likely to notice Islamophobia.

People who aren't black won't notice racism against black people like black people will.

People who aren't Jewish are less likely to notice anti-Semitism.

It is a bit strange to be honest, not being black, muslim, trans or gay I still hear about a lot of different negative things affecting those groups of people.

I find it problematic that I don't hear about anything about antisemitism and then hear it is a big problem. Because if it is so common and on the rise, who is keeping it silent? And who are these "invincible" haters and what are their motivations?

Not knowing that is a bit scary and frustrating.

 

[Crash Station]

I find it a bit concerning that more than sympathy, this thread is about skepticism. There's more sources than just something that can be perceived as biased. And I see only a single person has responded to Hix's incredibly shitty situation on page 1, leading me to believe people either don't believe him or don't care.

but it's simply not intellectually honest to claim that there is no motivation behind it other than abstract, ideological hatred of Jews.

It's not intellectually honest to claim there's none of that either.

 

[params7]

Its important for liberal criticism of Israel regarding Palestine to separate themselves from the anti-semitic bigots who are becoming encouraged by the increasing dislike for Israel's government. But I've seen excellent response from the left wing to separate themselves from and shut down those bigots. It also becomes important for Jews to also not exploit the rising anti-semites coming out from the woodwork to handwaive Israel-Palestine concerns away, and support even more hawkish political movements in Israel that exacerbates the situation.

The whole picture is complex though. It was good to see Obama/Kerry administration give it to Netanyahu over his uncompromising policies regarding Palestine. Then you move to the mainstream right in America who worship Neyanyahu like he can do no wrong. And then you move to the extreme right where they believe Jewish bankers/media owners want to enslave the whole world. Thankfully they are also in the extreme minority, and shouldn't be paid much attention to. I don't believe you can have a world where the extreme right doesn't exist at all. They will always be there, but that doesn't mean we have to entertain them.

 

[M.D]

I find it a bit concerning that more than sympathy, this thread is about skepticism. There's more sources than just something that can be perceived as biased. And I see only a single person has responded to Hix's incredibly shitty situation on page 1, leading me to believe people either don't believe him or don't care.



It's not intellectually honest to claim there's none of that either.

People on GAF downplaying or outright not caring about anti-semitism is nothing new

 

[Your Entertainer]

Anytime there's a discussion about Israel and the opponent (pro Israel) screams antisemitism, the conversation is pretty much over. It's gotten to the point where it's a code word for "I have no logical arguments left so I'm going to cry and scream". One dude literally broke down to responding with "anti-Semite!!" to everyone after his incredibly dishonest defense of some atrocities was broken down over several days. He was then banned.

Edit: And in case it wasn't clear, this is not an attempt to downplay antisemitism nor does it have much to do with the main article. But the subject has been brought up in this thread.

 

[Crash Station]

Anytime there's a discussion about Israel and the opponent (pro Israel) screams antisemitism, the conversation is pretty much over. It's gotten to the point where it's a code word for "I have no logical arguments left so I'm going to cry and scream". One dude literally broke down to responding with "anti-Semite!!" to everyone after his incredibly dishonest defense of some atrocities was broken down over several days. He was then banned.

This thread is not about Israel's actions, it's about anti-semitism in Europe.

Ah, I see you know that.

 

[Bleepey]

Time for a personal story.

I remember the day that, following discussions with the police, the Rabbi of our community warned it was unsafe and therefore forbidden by Jewish law to identify publicly as a Jew in the UK outside of a few select areas. About six years ago now.

I, of course, didn't listen. Then I met antisemitism face to face. First, one day coming out of Synagogue, a friend and I were accosted by two Muslims who said it was about time someone did something about the Jews to "save Gaza". We protested it had nothing to do with us, but ultimately had to flee back to the confines of the Synagogue.

I started noticing more and more people were looking, staring, glaring on the streets, the buses, the shops. One day my father and I were spit on and cursed in a mall in Glasgow and I realised it was time to stop looking Jewish.

The rest of the community followed suit, except the Rabbi of course. That is, until one night he was assaulted in the streets. Punched once he crumpled and was left on the ground as his assailant ran off yelling Allah hu ackbar. The Rabbi moved within the month.

Today we both live in Israel. You guys don't understand but there's nowhere like it. The freedom to just be who I am. Nobody looks at me funny. I'm not a problem, or even a question. Israel actually wants me.

I went back to London for the first time last year. My then heavily pregnant wife and I got off the tube near the Emirates stadium and within 5 minutes a Muslim driver yelled " fucking Jews!" out the window at us. I miss London and my wife, a Manc, is still the biggest Citizen you'll see. But we can't go back, there's nothing there for us in Europe any more. Ask any Jew and he'll tell you the same.

I live in a very, very Jewish neighbourhood. The things you say are kinda alien to me.

 

[params7]

This thread is not about Israel's actions, it's about anti-semitism in Europe.

The two are probably related once you see the anti-Semitism seems to be rising with increasing mainstream criticism of Israel.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Those terrorist acts weren't perpetrated by a state entity that has a figurative and literal blank check from the US, nor by one that claims to be a bastion of secular liberal Western democracy every time its human rights violations were brought up.

Moreover, the notion that Muslim identity is inextricably intertwined with support for ISIS et al. is not exactly mainstream in Western Islam to anything approaching the extent that support for Israel is within Diaspora Jewish institutions.

Obviously, none of this justifies anti-Semitic violence, but it's simply not intellectually honest to claim that there is no motivation behind it other than abstract, ideological hatred of Jews.

1) Muslim state entities that perpetrate terrorist acts (or oppression of religious minorities, or both) are also supported by America. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are two obvious examples.

2) Plenty of Muslim countries claim to be secular liberal democracies while violating human rights. Bangladesh and Turkey come to mind.

3) I disagree with your claim that Muslim institutions/identity aren't intertwined with execrable Muslim state actors. Not ISIS perhaps, but other countries worse than Israel receive political support, financial remittances, and moral comfort from Muslim communities around the world. I mean, you have to be aware of this, so maybe I'm misunderstanding your definition of "intertwined".

Posts in this thread like yours--along with Hix's links on increasing anti-Semitic attacks and the muted response to them--have convinced me that a much larger portion of anti-Zionism really is driven by anti-Jewish hatred than I previously thought. That, or willful blindness driven by an attempt to build up the importance of Islamophobia at the expense of liberal values.

 

[Quixzlizx]

People on GAF downplaying or outright not caring about anti-semitism is nothing new

The anti-semitic trope of "Jewish puppetmasters controlling things from behind the scenes" has been ingrained into Western culture since the death of Jesus. So I think a lot of possibly well-meaning people don't even realize they've absorbed and legitimized it when they hint and intimate that Jews as a whole are collectively responsible for Israeli government policy (or Western support for Israeli policy) while claiming to only be anti-Zionist.

I mean, there are even millions of Israelis who didn't vote for Bibi and his pack of fuckboys, let alone the millions of non-Israeli Jews who have had no impact on Israeli politics.

 

[M.D]

Anytime there's a discussion about Israel and the opponent (pro Israel) screams antisemitism, the conversation is pretty much over. It's gotten to the point where it's a code word for "I have no logical arguments left so I'm going to cry and scream". One dude literally broke down to responding with "anti-Semite!!" to everyone after his incredibly dishonest defense of some atrocities was broken down over several days. He was then banned.

Edit: And in case it wasn't clear, this is not an attempt to downplay antisemitism nor does it have much to do with the main article. But the subject has been brought up in this thread.

Curiously enough, the other side of that argument always likes to make a preemptive, snarky comment about how someone will bring up anti-semitism. As if they want to shut down any real discussion that it might be the case. But I must be crazy, because how could anti-semitism ever be involved when it comes to Israel? If anything, this thread taught me that anti-semitism barely even exists!

The anti-semitic trope of "Jewish puppetmasters controlling things from behind the scenes" has been ingrained into Western culture since the death of Jesus. So I think a lot of possibly well-meaning people don't even realize they've absorbed and legitimized it when they hint and intimate that Jews as a whole are collectively responsible for Israeli government policy (or Western support for Israeli policy) while claiming to only be anti-Zionist.

I mean, there are even millions of Israelis who didn't vote for Bibi and his pack of fuckboys, let alone the millions of non-Israeli Jews who have had no impact on Israeli politics.

Whatever is the case, reading GAF and the internet as a whole for the last couple of years convinced me more than ever that Jews should have their own country. And fuck Bibi.

 

[ElTorro]

The anti-semitic trope of "Jewish puppetmasters controlling things from behind the scenes" has been ingrained into Western culture since the death of Jesus. So I think a lot of possibly well-meaning people don't even realize they've absorbed and legitimized it when they hint and intimate that Jews as a whole are collectively responsible for Israeli government policy (or Western support for Israeli policy) while claiming to only be anti-Zionist.

That trope does not go that far back, since Jews in Europe have been historically segregated from the rest of society and put into Ghettos. It would have been absurd to claim that these people were in fact the puppet masters of the world. One can likely find the root of these conspiracy theories around 1800 during the the rise of enlightenment philosophies and governments. Reactionary forces needed to explain how their religious and monarchal traditions were being replaced by liberal democracies, especially after the establishment of the United States and its constitution. This lead naturally to conspiracy theories that blamed those minorities who profited the most from secular/liberal/egalitarian values. That template was probably first laid out by Augustine Barruel and evolved from there to include the Jews. As a historically persecuted minority who profited from said liberal values they where the perfect match. Bullshit like the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion trace back to the template that Barruel created. And they have become part of contemporary culture. For instance, Hitler exported such propaganda to the Middle-East, and it is still popular there to this day.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Anytime there's a discussion about Israel and the opponent (pro Israel) screams antisemitism, the conversation is pretty much over. It's gotten to the point where it's a code word for "I have no logical arguments left so I'm going to cry and scream". One dude literally broke down to responding with "anti-Semite!!" to everyone after his incredibly dishonest defense of some atrocities was broken down over several days. He was then banned.

Edit: And in case it wasn't clear, this is not an attempt to downplay antisemitism nor does it have much to do with the main article. But the subject has been brought up in this thread.

Why don't you reply to actual posts in this thread instead of just shitposting about the dreaded "Zionist anti-semitism accusation" boogyman?

I mean, you're doing exactly what you're whining about in your post (trying to shut down the conversation by labeling the opposition without any logical argument).