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[Guilty_AI]

Here is the thing, I dont care what western devs do with their game, its their fucking game, but my big issue rise when western media insulting and public shaming Japanese devs for doing what they want.

Freedom works both ways, if devs are free to make ugly ass character and make female character look like a man then thats choice, but Japanese devs are free to make character design good looking and thats their choice.

All this talk about equal rights but in reality everyone have to follow what western cultures does and if they wrong.

Your mistake is taking western journos even the slightly bit serious.

 

[mckmas8808]

Classic Kratos was an interesting and entertaining character with some unique takes for the time.

New kratos is just boring generic sad dad protagonist and wouldn't have been half as interesting weren't for old kratos

Young Kratos had one mode. MAD MAD MAD. Old Kratos is way more interesting and naunced. Old Kratos is way more interesting.

 

[Hypereides]

Young Kratos had one mode. MAD MAD MAD. Old Kratos is way more interesting and naunced. Old Kratos is way more interesting.

Young Kratos was vigorous and still exposed moments of vulnerability. Describing him as just "MAD MAD MAD" is an one dimensional take and disservice to his character.

 

[MagiusNecros]

OG Kratos is best Kratos. Excellent revenge story and fell in line with Greek Tragedy.

Reboot Kratos isn't very compelling. It's a intriguing arc to suppress murderous intent but it really isn't Kratos anymore.

Feels like another example of a character trying to be relatable to the player which falls flat because players want to play as the God of War in all his visceral glory.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Young Kratos had one mode. MAD MAD MAD. Old Kratos is way more interesting and naunced. Old Kratos is way more interesting.

Whoever says this didn't play the old games, has the memory of a goldfish, or is being extremely disingenuous for the sake of the narrative.




This single scene has more emotional impact than both new games together:

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

You guys really need to play Baldur's Gate 3.

It has the most complex characters and isn't trying to brainwash you, but challenge different ideological positions (through the characters) while respecting your intelligence.

It's a breath of fresh air.

Then why do I keep hearing that the story in BG3 is woke? So much conflicting things in modern media these days, so who knows what to believe any more?

Is it even woke?

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

That's just totally untrue, you had TONS of people complaing about the woke agenda when they saw her face, the game just isn't Horizon level so you got less of it but she was absolutely stuck in screenshtos together with others to show the "problem with western design"

Then people played the game and when does it come up in threads like that now for example? Never because the character is fantastic.

That's what I was getting at ultimately, maybe it was relayed badly.

 

[Danjin44]

Young Kratos had one mode. MAD MAD MAD. Old Kratos is way more interesting and naunced. Old Kratos is way more interesting.

He still kill gods now he just sad about it……needs emotional support.

 

[mckmas8808]

OG Kratos is best Kratos. Excellent revenge story and fell in line with Greek Tragedy.

Reboot Kratos isn't very compelling. It's a intriguing arc to suppress murderous intent but it really isn't Kratos anymore.

Feels like another example of a character trying to be relatable to the player which falls flat because players want to play as the God of War in all his visceral glory.

Personally I love both versions of kratos. But to be honest I think the average person would relate to old kratos. And I find there to be a lot of Glory in the latest version of him because he's not just always mad.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

If a person was neutral on the Russia vs. Ukraine thing......they wouldn't care any time a Ukrainian flag was hung in a game or in real life. Only someone who's pro-Russia, pro-communism, anti-America, anti-Western norms, and anti-democracy would be mad at seeing Ukrainian flags.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. When it started I was all for the Ukraine people and state, but now I realize how it is affecting US tax payers. Allegations of corruptions and mismanagement made me re-think my support for that side of the isle.

That leads me to think one-sided support of anything really shouldn't be spread around in video games because people aren't buying them to be activists, they are buying games for fun, and modern politics are anything but that.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally I love both versions of kratos. But to be honest I think the average person would relate to old kratos. And I find there to be a lot of Glory in the latest version of him because he's not just always mad.

I think people are more accepting of current Kratos if they had no exposure of the first 3 games. If you played the first 3, Atreus Adventures seems like a retread of GoW2 with Pandora. Except Old Man Kratos should know better.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Then why do I keep hearing that the story in BG3 is woke? So much conflicting things in modern media these days, so who knows what to believe any more?

Is it even woke?

It's because people don't even know what Woke means.
They use it for everything. Gay character? Woke. Black character? Woke. Female character? Woke. Non big boobs or big butt female characters? Woke. A character is not how you would like it to be? Woke.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Then why do I keep hearing that the story in BG3 is woke? So much conflicting things in modern media these days, so who knows what to believe any more?

Is it even woke?

The game uses pronoun/body-type choices in the character creator, and it lets you romance any of the main characters regardless of sex. Add the bear scene that became a meme and many just ran with the idea of the game being woke.

Story is fine tho, it doesn't even have the chance to push agendas onto you with how dynamic it is. Characters are also actually interesting rather than your standard millenial writing. Women look good too.

 

[mckmas8808]

Gonna have to disagree with you there. When it started I was all for the Ukraine people and state, but now I realize how it is affecting US tax payers. Allegations of corruptions and mismanagement made me re-think my support for that side of the isle.

That leads me to think one-sided support of anything really shouldn't be spread around in video games because people aren't buying them to be activists, they are buying games for fun, and modern politics are anything but that.

That totally makes sense. And your reasons to feel differently about the topic make sense also. But having Ukrainian Flags in a video game set in New York City isn't only about politics. It's just a reasonable depiction of New York city. The same way you'd see paintings of music artists spray painted on buildings.

 

[SHA]

I just read books, the thrill is unlimited and you won't feel cheated there by recommend contents from trusted sources, though I still prefer visual interactive contents more and won't deny how far they've pushed it in the last 2 to 3 decades, we've seen how good they could get.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

The game uses pronoun/body-type choices in the character creator, and it lets you romance any of the main characters regardless of sex. Add the bear scene that became a meme and many just ran with the idea of the game being woke.

Story is fine tho, it doesn't even have the chance to push agendas onto you with how dynamic it is. Characters are also actually interesting rather than your standard millenial writing. Women look good too.

Made me think perhaps the story involved the plight of female orc slavery or something lol since most of the marketing I've seen involves that specific character.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

It's because people don't even know what Woke means.
They use it for everything. Gay character? Woke. Black character? Woke. Female character? Woke. Non big boobs or big butt female characters? Woke. A character is not how you would like it to be? Woke.

Basically it just got me to wondering if the story involves teaching or preaching idealism that parallels today's identity politics.

 

[EviLore]

BG3 is very liberal insofar as it lets you do virtually anything and has a lot of sexual options and so forth, but it’s not regressively woke at all. Great game, one of the best RPGs ever.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

BG3 is very liberal insofar as it lets you do virtually anything and has a lot of sexual options and so forth, but it’s not regressively woke at all. Great game, one of the best RPGs ever.

Good to know, fearless leader!

 

[rofif]

I 100% disagree with you on the bolded. Every word of the bolded is laughable.

This Kratos is a better character than

This Kratos

One was created in the so-called "Woke" era and the other the pre "Woke" era.

I like the stoic kratos but he is barely the same character. They don’t really even cover what happened to Greece.
It almost feels like they are escaping the old kratos that was sexing ladies.
But I like the evolution in this case. What I don’t like is all the goody two shoes characters like angrboda, Atreus or even super tough Freya too much.
You can feel Atreus is on the verge of discovering his gay sexuality too in next spin off where he will be friends with angrboda but his forbid, not a couple.
New god, especially ragnarok feels disneyfied. He is weak. He killed Zeus ffs and they barely address it.

To clarify, I consider 2018 game superior to ragnarok which is woke fest galore… although I still like it and want to replay.

 

[mckmas8808]

I like the stoic kratos but he is barely the same character. They don’t really even cover what happened to Greece.
It almost feels like they are escaping the old kratos that was sexing ladies.
But I like the evolution in this case. What I don’t like is all the goody two shoes characters like angrboda, Atreus or even super tough Freya too much.
You can feel Atreus is on the verge of discovering his gay sexuality too in next spin off where he will be friends with angrboda but his forbid, not a couple.
New god, especially ragnarok feels disneyfied. He is weak. He killed Zeus ffs and they barely address it.

To clarify, I consider 2018 game superior to ragnarok which is woke fest galore… although I still like it and want to replay.

They do address the old Kratos stuff. He constantly is trying to steer his son away from the type of God he was.

The new Kratos isn't weak, but thoughtful and wise. I'm surprised how many people view emotional intelligence as weakness. What's happened to us as a society? Young Kratos was what a 21 year old with money and power would be like. Old Kratos is what a 55 year old, wise man with a child that's grieving his wife's death would be like.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Made me think perhaps the story involved the plight of female orc slavery or something lol since most of the marketing I've seen involves that specific character.

Actually her and her race (Githyanki) are the ones who are slaver traders. And either way the game lets you kill her or any other character from the very beginning and have nothing to do with their story.

 

[Stooky]

I think people are taking a few games and trying to push it like it’s an industry wide movement. I would believe it if it wasn’t the same 4 or 5 titles brought up in every talking point.

 

[Fake]

Saying the old God of War don't have emotion while sacrificing your health to protect your child and wife.

None of you would take a bullet for your love one and still doing this takes.

I can't say if Alan Wake 2 is woke or not, but Spider-Man 2 is 100% woke. Denying that is denying the middle east version of Spider-Man 2, with BTW when this game release on PC and will, some snowflakes mod community will ban people just for activating the middle east mode.

They created the god damn censor mode and people still blame players for enabling lmao.

 

[64bitmodels]

Honestly the issue I have is that there is a major overlap between

People who think that multicultural diverse games are good but hate the games that it is in
And people who think that multiculturalism as a whole is bad and hates seeing it in games

The whole discussion feels muddy and unclear to me here and its not helped by the idiots who unironically think progressive ideology (which has been around for all of human history and has played a major role in shaping the West as a culture) is going to cause the fall of the western empire which has also been one of the most powerful for a major chunk of human history. If the West ever collapses, it will be because of other major issues that you guys are also probably complaining about, or some great catastrophe years into the future no one would have predicted.

but more on topic: I think that there are many valid criticisms to be made of modern gaming's storytelling. But 99% of the time I feel like that's just bad writing.

Forspoken being a bad game wasn't because freya was a black woman, it was because the game was terribly written, generic and looked like dogwater (though i'm sure the OP rofif will be the first to disagree on that part. Trust me as long as you are alive, you will be made fun of for liking that game).

Same for Saints Row, while progressiveness did play a big part the game was ultimately a badly made, mediocre GTA clone with a setting and characters that didn't pay much respect to the original, neither were very interesting.

And there are games which still manage to succeed and be critically acclaimed despite the progressive element such as Spiderman 2, Alan Wake 2 (supposedly because even in this thread people are disputing if it is "woke" or not which also goes to show how meaningless the word is) God of War Ragnarok, And Baldur's Gate 3. A very "woke" game will end up taking the GOTY award this year.

on top of that, I find that the biggest irony in all of this are the people who dislike AAA for wokeness or a myriad of other reasons will jump up to recommend indie games, because once again those games are really good and really fun.... They're also arguably more progressive than AAA. Undertale, Deltarune, Celeste, AHiT, Signalis, Night in the Woods, Disco Elysium, and others have pretty upfront progressive stances in them, and for games that don't outwardly display their politics their developers sure as hell will on Twitter. All 7 of those games are critically acclaimed and beloved... So progressive politics doesn't seem to be the problem at all.

I feel like the biggest takeaway here to prove my point is how the anti woke posts here are more concerned on critiquing the ideology itself than critiquing the games which have the ideology, especially considering many people here actually do like said "super woke" games. Either that or vaguely just pointing to Japanese and indie games as a solution. I feel like if wokeness were really the problem it'd reflect in the sales and critical acclaim.

 

[EviLore]

progressive ideology (which has been around for all of human history and has played a major role in shaping the West as a culture) is going to cause the fall of the western empire which has also been one of the most powerful for a major chunk of human history.

Modern progressivism has virtually nothing in common with classical liberalism, the latter of which is the foundation of the post-Enlightenment West. They are diametrically opposed in many ways. Hence the concern from people with sense.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Well, it basically is.

rofif
Let me know if you're ok with this being posted here, if you're afraid of a repeat of the Sweet Baby Inc. Thread I'll take it out.

Who is this? The clients of who?

 

[Vick]

Who is this? The clients of who?

Them.

 

[Eiknarf]

It's 35 millions wich is a big numbers.

No it’s not,

35 million is 0.5% of 7 billion

LESS THAN 1 %

That HARDLY represents anything, let alone the collective consciousness of humans

 

[semiconscious]

Modern progressivism has virtually nothing in common with classical liberalism, the latter of which is the foundation of the post-Enlightenment West. They are diametrically opposed in many ways. Hence the concern from people with sense.

correct. for example, which of these 2 approaches is progressive, telling your effeminate son or your masculine daughter that:

1) they're an individual, beautiful as they are, & free to be who they are, as they are
2) they may be in the wrong body

by actively encouraging, rather than discouraging, gender stereotyping, 'woke' progressivism fundamentally reverses classic liberalism...

 

[NecrosaroIII]

It also lets you kill anyone who challenge those views if you don't feel like self-reflecting.

Goodbye Lae'zel

Lae'zael is such a bitch

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I 100% disagree with you on the bolded. Every word of the bolded is laughable.

This Kratos is a better character than

This Kratos

One was created in the so-called "Woke" era and the other the pre "Woke" era.

Garbage strawman... try again.

You picked a terrible example which isn't even an example of what I'm talking about.

Spiderman 2 has many examples of what I'm talking about, where the game has you doing a side mission with Miles Morales, where you're wasting time as a fucking super-hero, helping a gay teenage student at the academy where Miles schools ask his BF out to the prom. It's literally filler... it serves none of the game's major plotlines nothing... its only intention for inclusion in the game is to try to force the player to empathize with a gay teenage love story..... Who the fuck cares?!? I wanna play Spider-man and fuck somebody's shit up, not babysit for whimpy school kids who are too afraid ask out their school crush.

You might think shit like the above is good writing and a stunning take on the plight of gay school kids... but to me, it's tokenized lazy bullshit.

Contrast that with TLOU II, which includes trans and gay characters but does not make their gender identity or sexuality the focus of the plot, but instead merely uses those features to further develop them as characters and it's night and day between the games that do diversity properly and those that are just out to push propaganda down gamer's throats.

 

[RaduN]

Contrast that with TLOU II, which includes trans and gay characters but does not make their gender identity or sexuality the focus of the plot, but instead merely uses those features to further develop them as characters and it's night and day between the games that do diversity properly and those that are just out to push propaganda down gamer's throats.

I found Tlou2's entire plot about gayness and uber steroid muscle fucking, some of the most cringe and downright offensive pieces of shat i've ever seen in a game (and this is coming from someone that thinks MGS2 is the 2nd coming, so my tolerance for cringe stuff is quite high). But there's self-aware type of cringe and then there's clueless crap like in Tlou2. So no...it's agenda galore attempt.
But hey, the graphics are pretty and they talk real slow, so it must be good and deep.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Young Kratos had one mode. MAD MAD MAD. Old Kratos is way more interesting and naunced. Old Kratos is way more interesting.

Nah. They built up the reason why he was like that. I don't remember if it was explained on the outset of the game, but I do recall revealing more as time goes on. I seriously need to do a playthrough of the Trilogy. I've played through all 3, but never beaten them, just got far into each one. T.C Carson is always gonna be Kratos for me. I hope we get to have him in the role, one last time.

 

[Lupin25]

There’s nothing wrong with political ideology being inserted into games, because they always have in different ways, but now…

A lot of it is presented to be exploited, rather than used to curate thoughtful narratives that engage the user with the message.

Narrative directors need to be simply more creative and responsible with their stories, especially as we continue to pursue ultra realism during this graphics-obsessed era.

 

[RaduN]

There’s nothing wrong with political ideology being inserted into games, because they always have in different ways, but now…

A lot of it is presented to be exploited, rather than used to curate thoughtful narratives that engage the user with the message.

Narrative directors need to be simply more creative and responsible with their stories, especially as we continue to pursue ultra realism during this graphics-obsessed era.

Basically this

 

[mckmas8808]

Garbage strawman... try again.

You picked a terrible example which isn't even an example of what I'm talking about.

Spiderman 2 has many examples of what I'm talking about, where the game has you doing a side mission with Miles Morales, where you're wasting time as a fucking super-hero, helping a gay teenage student at the academy where Miles schools ask his BF out to the prom. It's literally filler... it serves none of the game's major plotlines nothing... its only intention for inclusion in the game is to try to force the player to empathize with a gay teenage love story..... Who the fuck cares?!? I wanna play Spider-man and fuck somebody's shit up, not babysit for whimpy school kids who are too afraid ask out their school crush.

You might think shit like the above is good writing and a stunning take on the plight of gay school kids... but to me, it's tokenized lazy bullshit.

Contrast that with TLOU II, which includes trans and gay characters but does not make their gender identity or sexuality the focus of the plot, but instead merely uses those features to further develop them as characters and it's night and day between the games that do diversity properly and those that are just out to push propaganda down gamer's throats.

Why are you so upset that the teenager was gay that he helped? That's what odd to me. Who cares. It wouldn't have made the side quest better if he was a straight kid.

Calling it tokenism is lazy.

 

[mckmas8808]

Honestly the issue I have is that there is a major overlap between

People who think that multicultural diverse games are good but hate the games that it is in
And people who think that multiculturalism as a whole is bad and hates seeing it in games

The whole discussion feels muddy and unclear to me here and its not helped by the idiots who unironically think progressive ideology (which has been around for all of human history and has played a major role in shaping the West as a culture) is going to cause the fall of the western empire which has also been one of the most powerful for a major chunk of human history. If the West ever collapses, it will be because of other major issues that you guys are also probably complaining about, or some great catastrophe years into the future no one would have predicted.

but more on topic: I think that there are many valid criticisms to be made of modern gaming's storytelling. But 99% of the time I feel like that's just bad writing.

Forspoken being a bad game wasn't because freya was a black woman, it was because the game was terribly written, generic and looked like dogwater (though i'm sure the OP rofif will be the first to disagree on that part. Trust me as long as you are alive, you will be made fun of for liking that game).

Same for Saints Row, while progressiveness did play a big part the game was ultimately a badly made, mediocre GTA clone with a setting and characters that didn't pay much respect to the original, neither were very interesting.

And there are games which still manage to succeed and be critically acclaimed despite the progressive element such as Spiderman 2, Alan Wake 2 (supposedly because even in this thread people are disputing if it is "woke" or not which also goes to show how meaningless the word is) God of War Ragnarok, And Baldur's Gate 3. A very "woke" game will end up taking the GOTY award this year.

on top of that, I find that the biggest irony in all of this are the people who dislike AAA for wokeness or a myriad of other reasons will jump up to recommend indie games, because once again those games are really good and really fun.... They're also arguably more progressive than AAA. Undertale, Deltarune, Celeste, AHiT, Signalis, Night in the Woods, Disco Elysium, and others have pretty upfront progressive stances in them, and for games that don't outwardly display their politics their developers sure as hell will on Twitter. All 7 of those games are critically acclaimed and beloved... So progressive politics doesn't seem to be the problem at all.

I feel like the biggest takeaway here to prove my point is how the anti woke posts here are more concerned on critiquing the ideology itself than critiquing the games which have the ideology, especially considering many people here actually do like said "super woke" games. Either that or vaguely just pointing to Japanese and indie games as a solution. I feel like if wokeness were really the problem it'd reflect in the sales and critical acclaim.

Greatest post in this thread. Word for Word perfect. I wish people could find the words they really want to say, instead of repeating the same phrases they've seen on Twitter.

A game with bad writing is just that. It doesn't mean it's woke. And just because something makes you feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean it's bad.

 

[Flutta]

Well, the alternative is that you just ignore stuff like that, the same way the Era crowd should just ignore posters with chicks with dicks on it. Or just sell the game on eBay and play something else. Or (and this is the best option) don't fall for FOMO, and just wait to purchase a game for a few weeks, until you know more about it.

Here’s a better alternative, let people talk about what they want to talk about and stop policing their conversations.

Why don’t you adhere to your own suggestions and ignore topics like these? It seems to me that you can’t so stop suggesting things you yourself can’t even do.

 

[Flutta]

Classic Kratos was an interesting and entertaining character with some unique takes for the time.

New kratos is just boring generic sad dad protagonist and wouldn't have been half as interesting weren't for old kratos

That’s their thing. They take popular characters/franchises and inject them with woke garbage because they know if they make their own shit no one will buy it, talk about it or even look at it. it’s the classic bait and switch tactic.

Best way to combat this virus is to stop feeding it. By that i mean don’t give them any of your money.

 

[CGNoire]

You are missing the point.
The problem is when character exists just to have this or that racial trait and for no other reason. Then they work against the story.
I don’t care if someone is white or pink. As long as they are real character

They allways "willfully" miss the point.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I don't think escapism is dying, it looks like we are going through paradigm shift where people simply want less escapism and more real life issues in their entertainment, question remains if this is true for the general public or just social media bubble.
I think protecting your well-being and mental health is right now more important than ever. Don't engage on social media, limit your Internet exposure to purely searching for knowledge, not voicing opinions or getting validation from strangers.

Or TLDR: just go for a run.

 

[CGNoire]

I’m no great fan of wokeness but this constant whining about it is just as bad as the people on (Great) Resetera whining about games not being woke enough. If you all clubbed together you could fund a QAnon game where you fight the blood drinking elites and steal back the election from Biden.

Keep it up. Only morons allow the left to define the right's motives and viseversa.
Keep regurgitatimg your "permitted" opinions.

 

[CGNoire]

that gay characters are killing gaming

No one here thinks including gay characters is ruining gaming. They see it as a part of a larger ideological push. You only ignore that fact and present it as "they dont want pocs and gays in media"because your main goal is portray them as bigots. You dont give 2 fucks or even have any interest in finding out the truth of what they actual believe or what there intent is and are just seeking to reinforce your already supplied opinion that there secret white supremesists.

 

[blue velvet]

It's not really a surprise why writing in videogame hasn't progressed much. I mean sure, it's better than what it was in the 90s and early 2000s but videogame still an inferior artform. It doesn't help that most developers and game writers are allergic to what is deemed as offensive. One of the reason why cinema and literature the superior medium is because of how transgressive they are. They always push the moral and social boundaries of our society. Rockstar used to be like that, but they got too big I guess.

 

[CGNoire]

They won't keep doing it if people stop buying it.

I'm willing to bet a majority of people whining about Spider-man 2 will also be buying Wolverine on the day it comes out.

ALL of the worst aspects of the games industry are allowed to continue because gamers are idiots who still pre-order, fall for hype and can't resist FOMO.

Integrity and Gamers dont mix. The vast majority are addicts.

 

[CGNoire]

In 25 years, society and corporations are going to realize that the “100 screaming people” on Twitter didn’t represent the world. That’s when woke will die.

Thats a long fucking time.

 

[FunkMiller]

Here’s a better alternative, let people talk about what they want to talk about and stop policing their conversations.

Why don’t you adhere to your own suggestions and ignore topics like these? It seems to me that you can’t so stop suggesting things you yourself can’t even do.

This is the kind of phrase better suited to the purple site - and it’s only ever used when a person doesn’t have a coherent argument.

 

[CGNoire]

Young Kratos had one mode. MAD MAD MAD. Old Kratos is way more interesting and naunced. Old Kratos is way more interesting.

Old Kratos is a fucking Bore

 

[Stooky]

I found Tlou2's entire plot about gayness and uber steroid muscle fucking, some of the most cringe and downright offensive pieces of shat i've ever seen in a game (and this is coming from someone that thinks MGS2 is the 2nd coming, so my tolerance for cringe stuff is quite high). But there's self-aware type of cringe and then there's clueless crap like in Tlou2. So no...it's agenda galore attempt.
But hey, the graphics are pretty and they talk real slow, so it must be good and deep.

so you are saying tlous 2 plot is all about gayness and steroid muscles. Please explain.