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[koam]

Definetly, but that's why some get a bit mad when people go a bunch of next gen game threads and say "this would be great with the Rev" controller when its not always the case. As you said every controller has its advantages and disadvantages and not every type of game is going to fit it all that well.

I guess that's whats going to make the Mario Rev game that much more itneresting. Platformers aren't really a game that I think would benefit alot from the controller, although that could obviously change when they start showing it off. Can't wait to see what they do with it. Mario 64 was their flagship titl eto show why the N64 controller would work, I wonder if Mario Rev will be the same for it.

I don't think people are putting enough emphasis on the capabilities and potential of the revmote being in the shell. You get a standard controller with enhanced motion sensing capabilities. The only drawback is.. of course.. you'll probably need to buy the shell.

 

[borghe]

right..

to clarify, I am excited by the potential of the Rev. However if Nintendo is unable to give us a compelling reason to give a damn about the controller, I'll be right there scratching my head with everyone else.

Long story short, I think it is important that Nintendo learn from the DS launch. When the most compelling title is from a third party and not much longer than a slew of minigames, your system could be in trouble. Revolution has to launch with a KirbyCC/Nintendogs.... not Mario 64 adapted to the revcon.

 

[SolidSnakex]

right..

to clarify, I am excited by the potential of the Rev. However if Nintendo is unable to give us a compelling reason to give a damn about the controller, I'll be right there scratching my head with everyone else.

A FPS with a good online mode would be huge for launch. That's the genre that if done right will benefit alot from the controller.

 

[PhoenixDark]

right..

to clarify, I am excited by the potential of the Rev. However if Nintendo is unable to give us a compelling reason to give a damn about the controller, I'll be right there scratching my head with everyone else.

Long story short, I think it is important that Nintendo learn from the DS launch. When the most compelling title is from a third party and not much longer than a slew of minigames, your system could be in trouble. Revolution has to launch with a KirbyCC/Nintendogs.... not Mario 64 adapted to the revcon.

You are 100%, as always it seems.

The controller has an almost unlimited amount of potential. Now, we need the games. I think Nintendo themselves could do some great things with the console, but I can't help but look at the DS as a lesson of how "not to" run the Revolution. When the DS was first revealed it was hailed as a great system that would be revolutionary, allow FPS to control just like ones on the PC, and have great innovative games. But, we didn't see that at launch. What we got was a port of Super Mario 64, without the analog stick. Then we got various mini-game titles (Wario, Feel the Magic) and 10 minute arcade games (Yoshi Touch and Go). As I've said before, I feel Nintendo rushed the DS to the market solely to get it out before the PSP, and it showed for 3-4 months.

Today, the DS has great software, but there still are questions. Many of the promises made before the system came out have not come to frution. A year has passed and the DS doesn't have an "amazing" FPS out. Now, Metroid Hunters is going to be that title next year, but it's sad that no developers have tried to exploit this obvious use of the system, and that Nintendo didn't show them the way early on.

We still have not seen many amazing uses of the two screens, not even by Nintendo themselves. It seems like the top screen has become "The Map Screen" as developers just tack a map - and usually a nasty looking one at that - up there; I'm amazed that even Super Mario Bros. DS won't have a unique use of the screen. And the touch screen? We've seen some games fully use it like Kirby and Nintendogs, but where are the amazingly innovative new titles that everyone though Miyamoto and the rest of Nintendo's great developers would create? What we have seen is typical Nintendo - milking. Now, this could seem rather harsh, but it is true sadly. Games like Trauma Center and Phoenix Wright are very innovative, yet Nintendo has yet to make a group of games that are as innovative.

If the Revolution falls into these very same traps, it'll be a goner. If we see Mario Sunshine Revolution with the FLUUD controlled by the Revolution controller and a bunch of mini-game titles at launch, plus some piss poor third party port jobs, Nintendo's in trouble. I doubt they'll make this mistake with the Revolution. They have already acknoledged the Gamecube's afterlaunch was poor, and they have said the Revolution will get a strong launch and a steady flow of quality software. SSBM, Mario, and MP3 all possibly at launch sounds more than amazing to me; it would be the greatest launch of all time. Even if those games are released within a 4 month spread, it would be a great launch for a system.

 

[Letter to Elise]

this is fatally flawed. the control scheme of cars hasn't changed because the way we use the cars hasn't changed. we are still driving cars on a single plane and still only controlling them to go left, right, forward or back.

now let's look at this another way, vehicle control in general. can a car's controls be applied to an airplane? no.. if they were you would never be able to get off the ground. Could they be applied to a spacecraft? heck, not even an airplanes controls could be applied to a spacecraft verbatim. are the controls the same as a segway scooter? not at all.

IMHO this goes further to prove my point. A standard controller can control a car game, an airplane game, a spacecraft game...ugh even a Segway scooter game.

You take the car control too literally. Its a set of controls that work fine for what its given. Just like a standard controller does now. Throw whatever you like at it and there is a way to accomplish it. The only signifigant change to what we do in games (full 3d) was responded to by a shift in the standard controller, not a completely different one. Will it be fun to try a new one? Sure. ^_^

Fatally flawed is a harsh overstatement to try and further a point.

I'm quite excited to see what the Revtroller brings, but I'm grounded enough to realize that if you have your head that far in the clouds all you tend to see is an illusion. I guess I'm a pragmatist in this situation. All I said is there is no necessity to change controllers now or in the forseeable future. Please go back and look at this in context.

Either way I'm sure there will be much to enjoy come Revolution's release.

~l2e

 

[Amir0x]

Just wondering, but MArio 64 was a completely different game to Mario World and the like, but it was a great evolution of the series. Couldn't the same happen to DMC with the Rev. controller?

And on this very same note, Mario 64 was a very different game than Mario World/etc because it was a move from 2D -> 3D. But it's not on the same level as those games, "evolutionary" post mark aside. I like Mario World much more than Mario 64. I like Super Mario 3 much more than Mario 64. I like Yoshi's Island more than Mario 64. Shit, I like Super Mario Sunshine more than Mario 64. But my taste aside, Mario 64 is a truly different experience than the Mario World's. It was no longer the same type of experience, and thus it's not what I loved.

Devil May Cry 3 is as perfect as an action game can get in this form, every time I try to think of a way to improve it I can't (visuals aside). So you can change the formula, and add wand wiggling weirdness, or aiming lameness, or whatever... but it would no longer be DMC. It'd be something else. That something else may be "good", but it would not be "DMC good." It'd be "something else good." And so, once more, since I do not need any changes to the already awesomely refined DMC system, any changes at that level would make it into something different.

But, all this talking is pointless. DMC4 is already confirmed for PS3, and thank God for that. No shitting up of this formula. So let them make something new for Rev.

 

[borghe]

IMHO this goes further to prove my point. A standard controller can control a car game, an airplane game, a spacecraft game...ugh even a Segway scooter game.

but a controller that actually behaves like one of those things.. i.e. a steering wheel, flight stick with rudder pedals and throttle, and a umm... segway scooter controller thingamajigie... all provide better more accurate control than a standard controller. anyone who says otherwise hasn't sat down with a classic fullblown thrustmaster setup.

Just like a standard controller does now. Throw whatever you like at it and there is a way to accomplish it.

this is kind of an ironic statement. you say that the controller is perfect because you can "adapt control schemes" to accomplish stuff. well, isn't that "adaption" of control schemes inherent to the controller NOT being perfect, but simply being what is there? let's go back to the mythical sword game. what is more natural to us as humans. swinging a sword (or sword-like object) with our hands or pressing the x button to swing it. as gamers it seems that pressing the button is more natural, because that is what we've been doing for almost 30 years now.. pressing buttons. but if I blankly gave the sword game to someone and, for expedience sake, a controller that looked like a sword or a standard DS2 controller, and asked that person to perform a cross cut, an overhead swing, and an obi-wan pose from A New Hope (provided all of those were available in some form on the control pad), which controller do you think would be more natural to pick up work with? heck, let's even use the point and shoot (Assuming the revcon control is perfect for the game) example. you can either aim with joystick or point and shoot with revcon.. which is more natural? millions of mouse keyboard gamers would say pointing and shooting is much more natural than the snap to center of console shooters.

and mouse keyboard is a great antagonist to your "standard controllers are perfect" theory. the mouse and keyboard combination is certainly far superior for RTS games, FPS games, and even most strategy games in general. Racing wheels are superior for driving games. etc.

I'm quite excited to see what the Revtroller brings, but I'm grounded enough to realize that if you have your head that far in the clouds all you tend to see is an illusion. I guess I'm a pragmatist in this situation.

but what exactly is there to be excited about? I think the best case scenario is that graphically the revolution will be "close" to ps3 and x360. and for multi-platform games not only will graphics be worse but it is fair to say that controls will probably be subpar (as was often the case on GCN with fewer buttons). so lower graphic quality and pared down controls, and yet you are excited? clearly there has to be something else there.

 

[Letter to Elise]

I'm excited from a novelty standpoint, not a necessity one.

All of those "better" control methods are moot as they work fine on a controller. Sales of odd controllers tell the story, as do sales of games that would benefit from them (racing/fps). When you have a method that works great, you don't have a need to look for a new one.

You seem excited for some pie in the sky stuff that will most likely never come to pass.

We both win for now.

^_^

~l2e

 

[borghe]

All of those "better" control methods are moot as they work fine on a controller.

this really flies right past the point. I am sure we could do 99.9% of today's games on the SNES controller if we had to and the game was designed around it. Of course you can say "no dual analog, too few buttons, etc" but that really exemplifies what I am getting at. SNES controllers were perfect and not in need of improvement at the time because all of the games were designed around those controls. hell, even the PSX controller was identical to the SNES one with the exception of the second set of shoulder buttons (which sony had to do for patent reasons). then N64 and dual shock came and showed why those controllers were inadequate for certain types of control schemes and games. the only reason PS2/XBox/GCN controllers are "perfect" is because it is all we have been given. But just because they have figured out a way to accomodate given play styles doesn't mean it is fine. the majority of FPS gamers out there still find dual analog a distant second to mouse keyboard. hell, even halo and halo 2 had to adapt to this by providing aiming assistance built into the engine. again a case of the controller being "ok" only because the game was designed around it specificaly, NOT because the controller by default was the most capable one for the job. I'm just syaing, thank gos not ever console manufacturer out there is saying "What we have is good enough", otherwise we'd still be playing games with four direction digital controls and a single big orange button.

Sales of odd controllers tell the story, as do sales of games that would benefit from them (racing/fps). When you have a method that works great, you don't have a need to look for a new one.

sales of specialty controllers fall behind because of their single use nature. the revcon by fact of default device avoids that. if sony included a free steering wheel with every copy of GT4, do you really think anyone would use the DS2 to play it?

You seem excited for some pie in the sky stuff that will most likely never come to pass.

either innovative games will come out for the Revolution, or it will die. It's really as simple as that. Because of the controller, nintendo wil not be able to survive next-gen on new games created from existing engines and 3rd party PS3 ports.

 

[Oblivion]

I was thinking about what Nintendo could do with Mario 128. Now, I don't know about when Mario's on the ground, but imagine Mario gets a flying powerup (hopefully, if Nintendo doesn't fuck around), you could make him fly like the demo that they showed at the TGS, the one that 1up called Pilotwangs or something. I could imagine that to be pretty interesting. What do you guys think?

 

[Oblivion]

Anyone?

 

[John Harker]

I just don't want to have to jump by jerking the controller up.

Not a fan of that. One bit.

 

[Oblivion]

Oh, snap! I just realized something. If Nintendo can't figure out a way to make the controller work with platformers, they'll just go with the DS route and make regular games that utilize other features, for example Mario Kart DS and online. I guess I don't need to worry too much afterall.

 

[Letter to Elise]

either innovative games will come out for the Revolution, or it will die. It's really as simple as that. Because of the controller, nintendo wil not be able to survive next-gen on new games created from existing engines and 3rd party PS3 ports.

Totally disagree as the standard controller add-on would suffice.

 

[John Harker]

Oh, snap! I just realized something. If Nintendo can't figure out a way to make the controller work with platformers, they'll just go with the DS route and make regular games that utilize other features, for example Mario Kart DS and online. I guess I don't need to worry too much afterall.

Yea, I'm personally thinking we're going to end up with the revmote doing more camera controll than anything else in platformers. Control camera with slight movements, but character with nanchuck buttons or shell configuration.

Its like, using the two screens and not using the touchscreen.
Works fine if you ask me!

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

That's a perfect analysis of the situation imo. With the Gamecube, Nintendo seemed to have a rather lax and somewhat arrogant attitude towards releasing games. They didn't seem to realize that gamers weren't going to constantly sit around and wait for Nintendo to release stuff when Sony and MS were releasing solid software on a very steady basis. Even now they have this problem: name me one great Gamecube game that's coming out between now and Zelda's release. You can't.

The problem with Game Cube is that Nintendo built themselves up saying they learned their mistakes with the Nintendo 64. They got better third party support but most of them were quickly ported to the PS2. Nintendo should set up stronger exclusitivity deals. Another problem with Nintendo was that at least with the Nintendo 64, Nintendo's software was great enough to where gamers could overlook no third party support. Nintendo's first party offerings were their worst ever (compared with NES, SNES, and N64) and sales show that. GC has sold around the same amount as the N64 yet their software doesn't even come close to hitting N64 software sales levels.

On many occasions Reggie and many other Nintendo people have said that the Revolution is going to need a very strong launch as well as solid software throughout the rest of the 8-12 months after the launch. Hopefully they'll make good on this promise. The Revolution could have a monster launch (easily the best ever in fact) if we do indeed get a new Super Mario, SSBM, and MP3 as Nintendo has suggested many times.

Nintendo is going to need to support their own console in order to further help developers understand the system. They did a terrible job at this with the DS, and the launch suffered in the end. Even 3-4 months after the DS' launch there still wasn't one amazing AAA title out for the DS. Nintendo made up for this later in the year starting with Nintendogs and ending (Dec. 5th) with Animal Crossing, but this will not work with the Revolution. They are going to need more than one killer game to combat the 360 and especially the PS3. If the Revolution launches around Nov. 06, it'll have to compete with MGS4 and possibly GTA or Halo 3. Luigi's Mansion just won't cut it this time around.

The Revolution needs to me more than just how to play games. Nintendo needs to make a Revolution in terms of how they run their business. They need to realize that gamers for the most part, have moved on from Mario, Zelda, and the like. They can return to these games but now its about the Maddens, the GTAs, the Halos, and hell, even the Gran Turismos. Nintendo can't throw out a half baked Mario title and expect gamers to line up. Some will but it won't be as much as Nintendo is used to.

Sony and Microsoft are at the top of their game. No matter what Nintendo says, they are in competition. If gamers see all three consoles and see Revolution as the least desired, gamers won't be buying it. Revolution is really a wild card. I see it either doing much better than Game Cube or much worse.

If we see Mario Sunshine Revolution with the FLUUD controlled by the Revolution controller and a bunch of mini-game titles at launch, plus some piss poor third party port jobs, Nintendo's in trouble. I doubt they'll make this mistake with the Revolution

You'd think that. Lets hope so. I hope Nintendo doesn't launch SSB3 and MP3 and then hope gamers play the virtual console for several months until Mario Revolution comes out. If they do that, they are toast. The virtual console should be a nice feature, not a crutch for them to have long delays. I'm not saying they will do this but if they're thinking about it, its a bad mistake.

Their release list should be like this:

At launch: Smash Brothers 3, Metroid Prime 3, and a new IP that takes full advantage of the controller.

~3 months: Mario Revolution, maybe a mini game IP (possibly Brain Training or Nintendogs) Pilotwangs :lol should be released around this time or around 6 months into its release.

~6 months: New F-Zero, Wave Race, or some kind of old franchise that not huge but has been around for some time and it should be online. Plus maybe a new IP.

~12 months: Mario Kart Revolution or a new Zelda (unlikely but still, its possible). Kirby or something substantial from a second party (Fire Emblem maybe or Earthbound) A new IP thrown in there.

You get the idea. Lots of big releases. Their big releases are still great games but are the traditional ones that focus more on fun than innovation. The new IPs will take full advantage of the Revolution's controller. Third party games will supplement this but like I said before, Nintendo has to step up to convince consumers and developers alike on the Revolution.

 

[Oblivion]

GC has sold around the same amount as the N64 yet their software doesn't even come close to hitting N64 software sales levels.

Actually, the GC sold substantially less than the N64.

GC: over 18 million units
N64: over 34 million units

And here's the staggering software comparisons (nintendo published only):

GC: Almost 30 million units
N64: Over 120 million units


And Mario 128/Revolution HAS to come out at launch. No ifs, ands or buts. (I don't even mind if they want to wait SSB for a few months).

Other than that, I agree with your post.

 

[koam]

And Mario 128/Revolution HAS to come out at launch. No ifs, ands or buts. (I don't even mind if they want to wait SSB for a few months).

Other than that, I agree with your post.

Absofuckinglutely. If the Revolution doesn't come out with Mario at launch day, then I will wait until the first price drop/bundle before I buy the rev.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

Absofuckinglutely. If the Revolution doesn't come out with Mario at launch day, then I will wait until the first price drop/bundle before I buy the rev.

Agreed, almost, I could still get one if SSB3 was a launch title, but nintendo needs to have Mario 128 ready as a launch title, hell, bundle it with the damn system just like in the old days us nostalgic fans so fondly remember.

Yeah, wishful fanboy thinking, but even Drinky would admit that Rev bundled with Mario 128 for 199$ at launch would own.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Iwata has said as much and Reggie has reiterated it...Revolution's line-up has to be solid for the first 6 months and Nintendo themselves is probably going to lead the way. This sorta reminds me of the NES approach...something Nintendo has been needing to do. Within the first year of the NES's life there were TONS of Nintendo made console selling franchises along with "color" to add to variety. If Nintendo could output like that again then, like the NES, they will create a userbase that 3RD can't and won't ignore. Within the first year I suspect Nintendo to introduce new franchises plus have an NES-like launch with strong Mario, Zelda & Metroid caliber franchises.

 

[Flo_Evans]

borghe brings up an interesting point: The DS2 and other current controllers seem perfect because the games we play where designed around them. Some of you seem to think taking a regular game and adding swash buckling/wand swinging to it will magicaly improve the experience. Similarly a 3d mouse to control the camera does not strike me as being a radical improvement of current controllers.

which brings into question, what type of game exactly would benifit from 3d mouse control? I really don't know. Perhaps I am not as creative as the minds at nintendo (probably the biggest understatement of the year). But honestly, go to the arcade and play that sword swinging game someone mentioned ealier, and don't forget to try out konami's boxing game where you actually swing your fists at the screen. Its a fun game, but it illustrates the problems with the 'swinging the controller around' method of play. #1 is that the game has to follow certain rules to be a game. I can punch as fast as I want to, but my guy on screen doesn't punch as fast as me. Instead of kicking ass like I am doing off-screen, my guy is still doing his pre-programed punches on screen. It is the same as pressing a button - you just get a better work out.

Now the rev could be completly diffrent and way more advanced then this.... but so far we have seen nothing to indicate this is the case.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Actually, the GC sold substantially less than the N64.

GC: over 18 million units
N64: over 34 million units

And here's the staggering software comparisons (nintendo published only):

GC: Almost 30 million units
N64: Over 120 million units


And Mario 128/Revolution HAS to come out at launch. No ifs, ands or buts. (I don't even mind if they want to wait SSB for a few months).

Other than that, I agree with your post.

For some reason, I thought the GC and N64 were close hardware wise. I knew Nintendo's own software sales were low.

I suggested Mario be put off because in terms of sales, SSB2 outsold Sunshine. SSB3 and Mario Revolution would directly compete since the target market is the same. A good multiplayer game like SSB is needed for the launch, especially if its online. I have my doubts MP3 multiplayer (if its even going to be included) will be that good.

Within the first year of the NES's life there were TONS of Nintendo made console selling franchises along with "color" to add to variety

Exactly. Nintendo has put out a lot of games for the NES. Although small games like Ice Climber won't cut it now but say Nintendo could release Mario Brothers 2 (sequel of the 1983 arcade game) Since people played it so much on GBA, it would be simple but popular enough for it to sell well. Especially if its online. You don't even have to press a button. You could use the wand for Mario to jump. It would be perfect, at least to me for example.

 

[borghe]

Its a fun game, but it illustrates the problems with the 'swinging the controller around' method of play. #1 is that the game has to follow certain rules to be a game. I can punch as fast as I want to, but my guy on screen doesn't punch as fast as me. Instead of kicking ass like I am doing off-screen, my guy is still doing his pre-programed punches on screen. It is the same as pressing a button - you just get a better work out.

true and false. true that the end result of games like this TODAY is just basically another form of pressing a button. false false in that that is not a limitation of a 3d controller. the boxing game for example. of course you can't keep hitting it 100 times as fast as you can. that would over power THAT game. any decent shaped guy could go in there and beat through the entire thing. because that is how the game is setup! there are many things that can be done differently, both through gameplay advances and through things available on a home console that generally aren't in arcades (difficulty settings being the biggest).

don't get me wrong.. I'm not even saying they can necessarily take Soul Calibur 2 and turn it into a weapon simulation with just a couple of cut and pastes.. hell, I don't even for a second believe we will see any of the things talked about or demonstrated right off the bat.. it will take years, maybe even generations, to refine this.. but the point is that it's out there. and the most apt thing said in these revcon threads is that if revcon takes off ina big way thanks to some killer apps.. expect MS and Sony to release a motion sensing controller for their systems as well.