are Tess and Ellie the best representation of "women" in videogames yet? who else?

My character in Saints Row 3 and 4 was female. So I'm going to say her. And if not that, Shaundi was pretty good too.
 
viveks86 said:
We can agree on that. It's just shifting the stereotype from one aspect to another, which is a bit of a hypocrisy.

Which is why I liked casiopao's examples
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Exactly. You can't have characters like Bayonetta as examples because apparently that's wrong and doesn't count. But you can say Ellie because she's tough. There's so many good examples from different games/genres that I people don't branch out to see what there really is. For every Ellie there's a: Lightning, Ling Xiaoyu, Nilin, Vanessa Schneider to rival but they don't count because...well because. Being a strong character (regardless of gender) isn't just about being tough and they shouldn't be praised as the only way of showing good character design.

Edit: I still don't get what makes Alyx stand out but that's just me.
 
I dunno... You could argue that Ellie, Tess and many other "strong" female characters in gaming are just that: strong/good/interesting characters. But are they the "best representation of women"? To be blunt, Hells No.

I think if we're looking for decent representation, game characters have a long way to go in general, for females, males and every other margin that resembles our current society in reality.

While playing TLoU, I couldn't help but feel I was experiencing a representation of modern film/TV. Don't get me wrong; I loved the gameplay and how the story played out and the characters were well constructed overall - but that's just it: these characters are constructs that don't really resemble anything remotely realistic, especially given the extreme context of the game world.

We can only imagine how humans would behave in that sort of situation, so we assemble characters and give them backstories/personalities to make their interaction with that world more interesting, and our interaction with them is made more interesting as a by-product. If anyone can seriously say they "relate" to these characters beyond a superficial level, I believe they are kidding themselves. If I met anyone in real life like Joel, Ellie, Tess, and co. I would worry that they were watching too many Hollywood flicks.

Maybe I'm sounding overly harsh, and I don't mean to because it is indeed a great game, blessed with progressive story-telling - but only in as much as the dialogue is written well and the parts are performed (very) well. I just can't think of any character that's a good "representation" of any societal pigeon-hole, because they are all fictional beings purely created for our amusement one way or another.

Of course, a certain amount of melodrama is usually necessary (and often succeeds in emphasising a character's strengths/weaknesses) in most forms of entertainment, and if you do feel some sort of connection with these characters, that's great. But developers and writers shouldn't be pressured into providing us with accurate portrayals of ourselves, or role models to look up to. People say art is a mirror of reality and all, but at the end of the day these qualities of a "good" (read: well-rounded, solid representation, etc.) character are inconsequential, especially in games where the player is the one at the helm.
 
Ellie is also written well enough that she could be mistaken for an actual human instead of a saturday morning cartoon character unlike, say, Lightning.
 
OP are you telling me that there are no childish, bad, weak, selfish, slutty etc women?
Saying that one character is a better representation of a category means having a very limited vision of that category imo, women are people, and like every other people they are very different from each other, each one has weak and strong points, there are women that are totally strong, others that are totally weak and others in the middle, no character can fully represent women(the same applies to men and any other category)
 
Don't know why people are saying Alyx (again).
She's a terribly bland character. Just because she's not sexualized doesn't make her a strong female character.

She's there to build the players ego by complimenting Gordon, and to hand hold the player by constantly telling the player to "use the gravity gun on X". One of the worst companions in a video game along with Fi.
 
Veelk said:
I honestly can't think of too many examples. The Boss is definitely one.

The_Boss_1.jpg
Click to expand...

Hands down, salutes up, best for me.

CiH12jU.gif
 
I have a hard time naming any character the best representation of my gender.
There are a lot of crappy female characters and many non crappy ones. From the good ones I don't think anyone in particular stands out, especially not as a representation of women in general, which is certainly not something that would even be possible or as a role model. Most good ones are just fine characters, nothing more or less.

If we are just talking about good female characters in general I would name the party members in Fallout New Vegas, Cass, Veronica and Lily. Obisidian has some very talented writers and those were certainly interesting and good written characters.
And I always liked Anna Grímsdóttir (SC1-Conviction). Most of the time she was only a support character, primarily just over voice communication in the games but always such an integral part of what made the Splinter Cell games that they wouldn't be the same without her.
 
MormaPope said:
The Boss.

Strong, commanding voice. Has very specific philosophies and morality. Was one of the greatest soldiers of the 20th century, cited as one of the main reasons why the Allies won WW2.

Even though shes a solider she has femininity, but shes very masculine as well. She never demands respect, she earned it.
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Yeah I think The Boss is the best female character ever.
 
Carcetti said:
Ellie is also written well enough that she could be mistaken for an actual human instead of a saturday morning cartoon character unlike, say, Lightning.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree and would like to know why my opinion differs so much from what seems to be the majority view. Could you please check my post above and see if there's any common ground?

I think there must be something in-between Ellie and "Saturday morning cartoon character" that hits the sweet-spot for me. Ellie just seems forced - too much in the other direction; like she could be a real person who was trained to act like a film star... I feel like it's the Uncanny Valley but in terms of characterisation. I don't know how else to describe it.
 
viveks86 said:
This shows little understanding of how women have traditionally been treated in games. The reason threads like this exist is because an earnest portrayal has been historically rare.
Click to expand...
I don't see how this is true. I mean, looking for an earnest portrayal of about anything in games is pretty much a desperate enterprise, but I believe that actually the female gender had as varied a representation as the male counterpart
 
2+2=5 said:
OP are you telling me that there are no childish, bad, weak, selfish, slutty etc women?
Saying that one character is a better representation of a category means having a very limited vision of that category imo, women are people, and like every other people they are very different from each other, each one has weak and strong points, there are women that are totally strong, others that are totally weak and others in the middle, no character can fully represent women(the same applies to men and any other category)
Click to expand...

Wow. Great answer there.

I had been keep saying over my previous post that there should not ever be representation of woman here as there are simply to many type of woman personality and worst, some of them is simply opposite. Of each other.

It would be a better title for the OP is: "is the two TLOU woman/girl the badass character of all time?" Rather than these character as, I would sure as hell don't want a daughter or little sister who keep spewing bad words to older person here.

Not to mention, Tess personality itself is nothing to brag like at all.

And also speaking about the Boss. While she is great soldier. I don't think she is a good mother at all though.
 
My oldest daughter is 11 and she's watching me play TLOU off and on lately. We've both studied up on
Cordyceps fungi
for years now since word started spreading on science sites about it's effects on ants so when word started leaking about TLOU a while back we were both really interested but I never owned a PS3.

Anyways, I've really enjoyed the representation of Ellie so far. There are a lot of things she does that remind me so much of my oldest. When she's
trying to whistle, or the way that even in dire circumstances she's thinking about a comic book
, or the way how occasionally a spark of maturity will shine through the childlike aspects.

For my money I definitely think Ellie is a pretty darned realistic depiction of a young woman her age.
 
Horseticuffs said:
My oldest daughter is 11 and she's watching me play TLOU off and on lately. We've both studied up on
Cordyceps fungi
for years now since word started spreading on science sites about it's effects on ants so when word started leaking about TLOU a while back we were both really interested but I never owned a PS3.

Anyways, I've really enjoyed the representation of Ellie so far. There are a lot of things she does that remind me so much of my oldest. When she's
trying to whistle, or the way that even in dire circumstances she's thinking about a comic book
, or the way how occasionally a spark of maturity will shine through the childlike aspects.

For my money I definitely think Ellie is a pretty darned realistic depiction of a young woman her age.
Click to expand...

I don't think a foul mouthed is a realistic depiction of young girl around her age right? Or is it only in my country that both males or girls is not supposed to speak that foul language to anyone?
 
casiopao said:
I don't think a foul mouthed is a realistic depiction of young girl around her age right? Or is it only in my country that both males or girls is not supposed to speak that foul language to anyone?
Click to expand...

I think it depends on the young person. I certainly spoke that way at 14 and largely, depending on company, today. I've never heard either of my children swear, but I highly doubt that, at least internally, it doesn't go on. Swearing is something that people do and it helps the characterization, I feel.

Ellie isn't some ideal, she's a real young person who has been born into what we see as a world of madness that is totally the norm for her, but we see it doesn't define who she is. She retains her humanity and is authentic to her nature without being reduced to a cartoon.

So far, anyways. In my play-through we JUST went through the Hunter compound.
 
Oh shit, I totally somehow forgot about my totally rad lady character in SR4! Uses the Nolan North Voice pitched all the way down.



She "wins".
 
casiopao said:
I don't think a foul mouthed is a realistic depiction of young girl around her age right? Or is it only in my country that both males or girls is not supposed to speak that foul language to anyone?
Click to expand...
I think that depends more in a character's environment. Has your country's society collapsed due to zombie-like infestation? When I was 14 I certainly would have sworn a lot more if nobody forbid me.
 
Laughing Banana said:
I like her.

Those who disagree usually cite the reason that she is basically just a male Shepard re-skinned, but I disagree. Those that play as Fem Shep from the beginning to the end and consider her as their main Shepard is, in my opinion, very valid to consider her as a true female character.
Click to expand...

You see that is what I like about FemShep. An accidentally strong female character. More often than not, female character design is usually the male perceived sense of what they think a perfect awesome female is. Sassy, comedic, relaxed, almost one of the guys. Which isn't necessarily what a female would perceive their ideal character as being. Much as the male leads are the perceived male ideal, the average joe, rugged, ruffled but with a smooth handsome edge - i.e. insert the *.jpg of western male lead character design right here.

FemShep got dumped with ManShep's script, but in doing so became one of the strongest female characters in gaming. Focused, determined, sometimes cold and isolated (especially in the case of my FemShep, who finished up the series practically alone, consumed by the fight against the Reapers). I believe this is the same sort of process that led to Ripley's character in the Alien series.

A total accident but a complete success.
 
Scrooge McDuck said:
I think that depends more in a character's environment. Has your country's society collapsed due to zombie-like infestation? When I was 14 I certainly would have sworn a lot more if nobody forbid me.
Click to expand...

But this is all about representation of woman. And I don't think that all woman would love to see that they are represented by these kind of personality?

Especially one like tess?
 
I don't really agree with there being representations of an entire gender purely because every person is different. It's much in the same way that gay people are either portrayed as really camp and weak or realy manly and strong when it's very rare that people like that even exist.

Game characters are fictional, much like characters in TV and film and I don't believe they should be held as representation of genres.
 
casiopao said:
But this is all about representation of woman. And I don't think that all woman would love to see that they are represented by these kind of personality?

Especially one like tess?
Click to expand...
Your original question is whether it's a "realistic" depiction of a character. If what you want is a character all woman would love to be represented by, than I feel that it's a fool's errand.

If you ask whether Ellie is a character someone could aspire to be, then yes? Just maybe not every single facet of her? Just like every admirable human being.
 
Best over the top female character:

* Dragon's Crown Sorceress

Best manipulative and deceptive "female" character:

* Shodan

Best badass female character:

* FemShep

Best overall female character:

* Ellie
even without a bow in the hand

Best survivor female character:

* Lara Croft in the newest reboot

Best damsel in distress:

* Princess Peach and Zelda
 
Pfff. Have you went out much? Women are not all like Tess and Ellie. On the contrary, women in the most are either housewives or underqualified and unambitious workforce. That's how it is. Sure there are some really smart ones who dream big and are ready to fight for it, but there are too little of them. It's not THE representation of women, it's merely a representation of strong and independent ones.
 
"Best representations" is an awkward way to put it. Lots of people are a mess of cognitive dissonance and shitty personality traits that would be attacked mercilessly by people if they were fictional characters.

If it's just "best female character", than yeah, Ellie is up there. I actually feel like Elizabeth is somewhat overshadowed by Last of Us and the criticism of BioShock Infinite that I feel is somewhat over the top.

Alyx is my favorite, though. Strong, smart, good sense of humor, always kicking ass. She's the central "personality" of the Half-Life series and it's a good one.
 
aprilryan1.jpg


April Ryan - The Longest Journey, Dreamfall

2013-12-19_000241.jpg


Clementine - The Walking Dead

ME3-FemShep-580x379.png


"FemShep" - Mass Effect series

metroid_characters_samus.gif


Samus Aran - Metroid series

cate_archer_nolf2.jpg


Cate Archer - No One Lives Forever

All are excellent characters in their own right and also are great representatives of their gender.

Edit -

Dammit, how could I forget her?!

elainecmi.jpg


Elaine Marley - Monkey Island series
 
Too many people here seem to be under the impression that "good representation" is equivalent to "badass heroine."

Most of these characters are just men with tits added on.
 
Well I guess it's good that we had you to tell us what a proper representation was with a good example to set everyone straight.
 
SOLDIER said:
And holy shit could people stop listing Alyx as this ultimate, flawless representation of female empowerment in gaming or whatever platitude people toss her way?

She's a good character, no she's a great character.

But don't pretend she wasn't haphazardly lusting after you in the HL2 sequels. At the start of Episode I she literally hugs you in first person.

Not that being attracted to the MC is a bad thing, just that she went from zero to horny in-between games, and no one ever calls notice to that.
Click to expand...

I know internet seems to love Alyx but every woman I know in real life that has played HL2 hate her. Her character is every submissive white male nerd's fantasy. A sexy ethnic girl who you don't have to even talk to who solely exists to prop up your ego.

As for my pick, the Boss from Saints Row 3 I can't articulated better than this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egNGa41tRac
 
Kendl%5Bgta-worldmods.de%5D.jpg


Kendl Johnson from GTA:SA deserves credit. She's rational, does normal things, keeps the family together, starts multiple businesses, isn't racist, etc.
 
BumblebeeCody said:
Exactly. You can't have characters like Bayonetta as examples because apparently that's wrong and doesn't count. But you can say Ellie because she's tough. There's so many good examples from different games/genres that I people don't branch out to see what there really is. For every Ellie there's a: Lightning, Ling Xiaoyu, Nilin, Vanessa Schneider to rival but they don't count because...well because. Being a strong character (regardless of gender) isn't just about being tough and they shouldn't be praised as the only way of showing good character design.

Edit: I still don't get what makes Alyx stand out but that's just me.
Click to expand...
I think it just comes back to have generally well written characters.

Like, I'd say that Grace Peyton from Lost Planet 3 is also a good representation even though she assumes a more traditional role of a house wife. You only see her in the game through video messages she sends to her husband, but you can really feel how there's a whole character beneath there who struggles with taking care of her child while also supporting her husband.

http://youtu.be/slLSllzfxMU
 
Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and the characters of Gone Home.

Edit: Samus is also interesting character but since I haven't played Other M I can't comment on her depth. I think it is merely interesting to have a female role not play any specific sort of gender roling.
 
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