FloweryMarston
Member
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Elizabeta Torres from GTA IV is a great character for the themes of the series, and i would love to play someone with the same style as her in a grand theft auto.
are Tess and Ellie the best representation of "women" in videogames yet? who else?
- Thread starter ThatStupidLion
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Elizabeta Torres from GTA IV is a great character for the themes of the series, and i would love to play someone with the same style as her in a grand theft auto.
Corronchilejano
Member
I think that's the whole point. Women (as well as men) appear as role models because we look up to them, be it man or woman. Incredibly, there're very few women role models in public conscience EVEN if they do exist (and hence, why videos like "Tropes Vs Women" exist).
Altair gets a lot of attention not because he's a man, but because he's a cool assasin. His gender, sex or whatever has nothing to do with it.
odd thread, I'd say 99% of the women in this thread are of a similar sort. strong asexual leads who show male like traits of strength and banter.
Truth is that is not even half of what a woman can be, There are very few examples of female leads who use their sexual prowess for example without it falling into stereotypical female types. Woman's power over a man for one example isnt something to laugh over, its real and a tool that is built into the foundations of what make a woman a woman.
Chloe in uncharted is a good example of that, So is Eva in MGS3. It annoys me when people think sexual female characters cant be strong.
Truth is that is not even half of what a woman can be, There are very few examples of female leads who use their sexual prowess for example without it falling into stereotypical female types. Woman's power over a man for one example isnt something to laugh over, its real and a tool that is built into the foundations of what make a woman a woman.
Chloe in uncharted is a good example of that, So is Eva in MGS3. It annoys me when people think sexual female characters cant be strong.
This kind of nihilistic approach falls on its face as we as people consume and compare all media, as we do with all things.
This is like arguing if you can say that a movie is a good, or a song is good, or that a character in any piece of media is "good." We have standards that change all the time, and we discuss our personal preferences and share our opinions with others. And certain entities begin to emerge as avatars of success and examples that we generally hold as "being good."
So to answer your question: we're anyone who has an opinion to decide on who we think are good (and bad) female characters.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I mentioned Lara Croft...she fits this perfectly. There are times when she clearly takes advantage of her femininity to throw off/disarm male characters in the game
Deified Data
Banned
I don't really think there's anything nihilistic about my approach. Not sure why you'd describe it as such. I wouldn't appraise a character the same way I appraise a movie, especially not in the lens of inclusion politics. I think I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's possible for this topic to separate itself from "who's your favorite female character" threads.
viveks86
Member
Talk about missing the point entirely. Trey is challenging your statement that none of us can judge what is good. Not whether it boils down to picking your favorite or not.
Good or bad is indeed subjective, hence it does mean you would often pick your favorite, but that doesn't diminish the purpose of this thread. You are playing with semantics.
EDIT: Ok. Seems like you at least updated your post to a better response.
Under the context that you're holding them up as examples of the best that demographic has been depicted. You might like them, they might be your favorite, but this is more a discussion of the entire female video game character meta rather than any particular character.
For example: I wouldn't say Master Chief is the best character in gaming - or even necessarily a good character - even though he is one of my personal favorites. Even further, I can't discuss with you whether or not a certain character is your favorite character. But I can discuss with you whether that character is a "good/bad" character.
There is a clear dichotomy drawn between one's personal favorite character, and a character they think is a good representation of the demographic that character belongs, even though overlap of the two concepts does often happen. These discussions have value.
I always thought Lulu from FFX was a good depiction of a good female character. Of course, one might think: BEWBS but that or her sex appeal was NEVER a plot point or the focus in the game. She might not be physically strong but her mental stability is really admirable because she lost 2 dear people to Sin, failed 2 pilgrimages and yet continues on to guard Yuna on her own pilgrimage to stop Sin. Look at Auron: he was a total wreck after Braska and Jecht died. Her calm, mature, serious attitude combined with her intelligence and knowledge surely left an impression imo.
QuantumZebra
Member
RockTurtle
Member
how could you guys forget the original!
DrDrizzay101
Member
Samus was always a great female character to me because it wasn't important or made a big deal what her gender was (Other M doesn't exist). Kinda like Bill in The Last of Us
.
where his sexuality is subtly alluded to but isn't made to be some defining character trait
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
thesolidshark
Member
Thanks for the lengthy response of your experience, and the LttP & OoT spoilers since I haven't played them yet (kidding though, since I should've already played them and still plan to), but I was hoping for more, numerous examples of girl power showing up in the 90s as maybe an effect of the media.
All I can think of right now is from the Genesis/SNES era, including Phantasy Star IV, FFVI, a few beat'em ups and fighters with playable female characters if those count, and that's it. I'm probably missing several from the Saturn/PSX/N64.
Kris Pistofferson
Banned
crtl + F Lillet Blan.
For shame, GAF. At least just about every other answer I would have given is here. Kreya/Samus/Chris from S3 are also personal favs of mine.
All of the nuances in her story
that make her so endearing to me would be fairly spoilerish, but I'll just say she goes into her new school a young student and comes out of the as a both hero of the school and the entire country.
For shame, GAF. At least just about every other answer I would have given is here. Kreya/Samus/Chris from S3 are also personal favs of mine.
All of the nuances in her story
and why she's not quite the same as Ellie regarding child/adult
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Because most of the time, they're weak damsels in distress or insipid love interests. It's not all to make them "tough" obviously, but it's infinitely preferable to the previous alternative.
What are "manly" words? What manly things do they do exactly?
Because teenagers never do what they're not "supposed to", especially during a zombie apocalypse. LOL.
As a teen I swore far more than Ellie ever did.
It wouldn't... but it does, because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is.
Nah. "Mrs. Male Character" is an old trope of having a token female character who's just a reskin of the male character with a feminine attribute, such as Mrs. Pacman. A common manifestation of the trope is the Smurfette syndrome, where you have an ensemble of male characters, each with their specific attribute, and their single female counterpart, whose defining attribute is... being female. For example in the Smurfs you have the smart wanna-be moralist, the handy mechanic, the soulful poet, the funny jester, etc. and you have the female one.
"Man with boobs" on the other hand, isn't modelled after an existing male character or male cast, but is just a character who acts exactly like a man would but happens to be female. To be quite honest, I don't have a problem with this trope at all. Being feminine isn't a bad thing for a female character to be, but then again it's not a bad thing for a male character either, and the reverse is true. As a tomboy myself I have no problem with the tomboyish/"man with boobs" type. I'm curious how Anita will explain that one.
True. That's the fault of the character designer though. If you want your character to be taken even remotely seriously, don't make her so pitifully pandering. That said, the modern Lara Croft (2013 as opposed to classic Lara) is the other way around; she looks more proportionate, but her character is beyond boring. XD
And she also made TLoU better. Good for Anita, she makes mistakes but she's a positive influence in the industry.
BumblebeeCody
Member
True but again. This is a huge problem. We're not looking at these characters as to what they bring to the game/form of media but that they're a gender first. As made evident by other users that it's a hypocritical stereotype. In order for a female to be considered "acceptable" they have to be "strong and tough". I like Ellie but she's far from a stand out character like Bayonetta. It's like, you can't be have a fun loving diverse character with different characteristics and traits or heck, even have a level of sex appeal otherwise they're for some reason looked down upon.
Same with Grace Peyton or Nicole Clarke. Both have very similar roles but I wouldn't consider them good representation of women. They're just good characters within this game.
There's nothing wrong with Princess Peach though. The only time people should get annoyed is when there is a statement to be made. If Nintendo made a statement about how "all that females are only good for are being captured" then yes. That would be a statement worth fighting back against. When you make a character like Princess Peach but don't make any statement towards [insert group] then I still don't understand where the negativity comes from? What other female character is a damsel in distress AND makes a statement that females are useless?
You could argue Zelda but then that has context for her being captured. Even then, she is strong enough to be come a character like Sheik.
Keep in mind Nintendo made Metroid in 1986.
This entire thread is dedicated to good female characters and you're using "because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is". This thread is why that statement is a bad generalisation. If the state of the industry is bad, then why is this thread able to give so many examples (plus more that haven't even been mentioned)?It wouldn't... but it does, because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is.
I'm glad Anita brought this topic into the spot light but she is far from the person to talking about the subject matter. Anita has a very uneducated view on media in general.
This is a terrible generalization that ignores all the interesting examples from this thread.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Call me crazy, but I did not find Tess to be a likable character.
Well written and likable are distinct things, but perhaps she is neither
Most fighting games these days have expanded lore and characterization.
Chun has been developed as a character for over 2 decades, good or bad
Violence Jack
Member
As mediocre as I thought the game was, Nilin from Remember Me was a great way to represent women in videogames
And I always made sure that my character from Saints Row 3 and 4 were female.
And I always made sure that my character from Saints Row 3 and 4 were female.
Griddlelol
Banned
You seemed to be adding a meaning to my words that wasn't intended. I apologise if I wasn't clear enough. One point: I actually think Femshep is pretty good. She is a captain of a space ship rather than Rambo, and many of the dialogue options make sense coming from a woman (especially considering the fantastic voice actress). I only play Mass Effect as Femshep.
It's not about the fighting or military, the problem is people seem to think that just because a poorly written women is acting like a badass that it's a good representation. The badass woman can simply be a sexual fantasy itself, or as I mentioned earlier a man with boobs. The way some of these female characters act is hardly different from how the male characters act. Machismo bullshit mostly. It's not really the actions I'm getting at, it's more the personalities (or lack thereof like Samus). Obviously you're going to have a chick who kills people in a game about killing people, but why does she have to talk and act like a man?
There's a difference between "who are you favourite female badasses" and "who are the best representations of women" - at least in my reading of it.
Juniper is a pretty good representation of a woman in a game. She's different from Oak and the male professors, with her own personality, yet still a senior member of the pokémon academic circle (that was a hard sentence to write seriously).
I hope I got my point across which the tl;dr version is basically personality is what I have a problem with, not actions.
Solemn_In_Berlin
Member
Grace Holloway from Bioshock 2.
The Honeywells from The Last Remnant.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
The Honeywells from The Last Remnant.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
kitschbeam
Member
I'm outta here.
FloweryMarston
Member
Stop with this man, everyone has an opinion and you shouldn't act like another OPINION is fact.
As mediocre as I thought the game was, Nilin from Remember Me was a great way to represent women in videogames
With skintight jeans and the camera always following behind?
I approve
petran79
Banned
As an 80s kid with fond memories of the 90s, I remember the girl power vibe of the 90s too, but I don't remember it much translating into gaming.
And I think game companies are obsessing more over the money that comes with a certain masculine demographic, not just for the sake of the demographic; games like Halo (at one point) and CoD have proven it's a financially reliable demograpic. If either of those didn't work out, it'd be interesting to see what else would dominate the market and create multiple clones.
It's sad that I can't say you're actually kidding, even with the ""
I think computer games paved the way this type of game. consoles were too conservative but 20 years later they seem to have caught on....
eg Kings Quest VII
or even Phantasmagoria 1. it was the only game my teenage sister was interested back then....btw a movie is on the way!
http://www.gamerqc.com/2014/01/18/e...-cooper-productrice-du-film-phantasmagoria/2/
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No one has said they have to be. But it's refreshing when they are, and even more so when they are in a believable manner rather than a cartoon way, such as Bayo...
Hahaha what
What is this nonsense? You don't have to "make a statement" explicitly for a trope to be problematic. The problem with DiD is how prevalent they are, which in itself is a form of statement (even if it's just laziness, it's still rooted in a sexist mindset). It's very telling that Peach is a DiD in most mainline Mario games, and the only game where she's the sole playable character, she attacks enemies with her mood swings.
Yeah, the game that doesn't even tell the players the character is a girl, but instead rewards the player with a girl with less clothing the faster you complete it. A girl in underwear as a reward is so progressive!
Because there's far more bad female characters than good ones. Obviously there's some progress being made recently, but a few good examples do not make the bad magically disappear. FFS, I checked two random games on the Steam homepage recently, and both had female "warriors" with super-skimpy and heavily sexualized outfits. We still have long ways to go.
Laevateinn
Member
In general, I think Sega has done a great job with female characters going all the way back to the matriarch of female game characters, Alis Landale.
Alis being a woman doesn't mean anything. She could have just as easily have been a male character who's seeking vengeance for the death of a brother and taking down a corrupt galactic empire. She's just a bad ass. Phantasy Star, being a Master System game, is pretty primitive in terms of character development but in general I think the Phantasy Star series does a great job at its portrayal of women and I suspect having a female fronted development team is the reason. This is why women are so important for game development. Sega should get credit for being pretty early in giving a woman, Rieko Kodama, such a prominent role in development. Her games do a great job at not alienating women at the same time many others (Sega included) were.
Most of my favorite female characters, such as Aika, Elenor Camuel, and Rika come from her games.
Alis being a woman doesn't mean anything. She could have just as easily have been a male character who's seeking vengeance for the death of a brother and taking down a corrupt galactic empire. She's just a bad ass. Phantasy Star, being a Master System game, is pretty primitive in terms of character development but in general I think the Phantasy Star series does a great job at its portrayal of women and I suspect having a female fronted development team is the reason. This is why women are so important for game development. Sega should get credit for being pretty early in giving a woman, Rieko Kodama, such a prominent role in development. Her games do a great job at not alienating women at the same time many others (Sega included) were.
Most of my favorite female characters, such as Aika, Elenor Camuel, and Rika come from her games.
bananafactory
Banned
Can't believe people are seriously posting Samus as great representation of women. She doesn't even fucking talk.
Ellie is probably the best and most "authentic" female character I've seen in a game - this largely boils down to both the writing choices and performance from Ashley Johnson.
There are many other examples of "strong" female characters like The Boss from MGS, but I feel that none of them get the attention to character development that ND gave Ellie.
Ellie is probably the best and most "authentic" female character I've seen in a game - this largely boils down to both the writing choices and performance from Ashley Johnson.
There are many other examples of "strong" female characters like The Boss from MGS, but I feel that none of them get the attention to character development that ND gave Ellie.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I agree, Alys Brangwin from PS4 is the best. <3 Rieko is awesome. I miss her.
PS1 Alis is one of the best representations of women in gaming. She doesn't go out of her way to show she's a badass by being edgy. She's just a warrior who starts a quest for revenge that leads to more. She wears sensible armor and doesn't strike poses that makes it look like her back is broken.
User 73706
Banned
Are you sparking all these thought exercises to practice for the mental gymnastics?
YES! There always be a Darth Traya.
As for the question, i'd probably say it's the same amount of regular men are represented well.