are Tess and Ellie the best representation of "women" in videogames yet? who else?

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Elizabeta Torres from GTA IV is a great character for the themes of the series, and i would love to play someone with the same style as her in a grand theft auto.
 
Yet the majority of the responses seem to be powerful, empowered and magnanimous women stereotypes. The equivalent of the male power fantasies with women skin. Most of these characters would work as a male protagonist withouth losing much of what makes the character in the process, because the femininity of said characters doesn't play an important role of their essence.

I think that's the whole point. Women (as well as men) appear as role models because we look up to them, be it man or woman. Incredibly, there're very few women role models in public conscience EVEN if they do exist (and hence, why videos like "Tropes Vs Women" exist).

Altair gets a lot of attention not because he's a man, but because he's a cool assasin. His gender, sex or whatever has nothing to do with it.
 
odd thread, I'd say 99% of the women in this thread are of a similar sort. strong asexual leads who show male like traits of strength and banter.

Truth is that is not even half of what a woman can be, There are very few examples of female leads who use their sexual prowess for example without it falling into stereotypical female types. Woman's power over a man for one example isnt something to laugh over, its real and a tool that is built into the foundations of what make a woman a woman.

Chloe in uncharted is a good example of that, So is Eva in MGS3. It annoys me when people think sexual female characters cant be strong.
 
What is a "good" representation of a woman, and why am I or anyone else in this thread (male or female) qualified to decide?

I have favorite female characters, but are they "good representations" of women? They're women. Sometimes they're realistic and sometimes they're not, just like men. Some strong, some weak, some warlike, some nurturing, and any number of things in between. There isn't a checklist of qualities in my head that makes a female character a "good representative". On that basis I challenge the premise of the thread, unless we're honest with ourselves and call it what it is: a list of our favorite female characters, irrespective of meta gender politics.

This kind of nihilistic approach falls on its face as we as people consume and compare all media, as we do with all things.

This is like arguing if you can say that a movie is a good, or a song is good, or that a character in any piece of media is "good." We have standards that change all the time, and we discuss our personal preferences and share our opinions with others. And certain entities begin to emerge as avatars of success and examples that we generally hold as "being good."

So to answer your question: we're anyone who has an opinion to decide on who we think are good (and bad) female characters.
 
odd thread, I'd say 99% of the women in this thread are of a similar sort. strong asexual leads who show male like traits of strength and banter.

Truth is that is not even half of what a woman can be, There are very few examples of female leads who use their sexual prowess for example without it falling into stereotypical female types. Woman's power over a man for one example isnt something to laugh over, its real and a tool that is built into the foundations of what make a woman a woman.

Chloe in uncharted is a good example of that, So is Eva in MGS3. It annoys me when people think sexual female characters cant be strong.

I mentioned Lara Croft...she fits this perfectly. There are times when she clearly takes advantage of her femininity to throw off/disarm male characters in the game
 
This kind of nihilistic approach falls on its face as we as people consume and compare all media, as we do with all things.

This is like arguing if you can say that a movie is a good, or a song is good, or that a character in any piece of media is "good." We have standards that change all the time, and we discuss our personal preferences and share our opinions with others. And certain entities begin to emerge as avatars of success and examples that we generally hold as "being good."

So to answer your question: we're anyone who has an opinion to decide on who we think are good (and bad) female characters.

I don't really think there's anything nihilistic about my approach. Not sure why you'd describe it as such. I wouldn't appraise a character the same way I appraise a movie, especially not in the lens of inclusion politics. I think I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's possible for this topic to separate itself from "who's your favorite female character" threads.
 
So it's a list of your favorite female characters, then.

Talk about missing the point entirely. Trey is challenging your statement that none of us can judge what is good. Not whether it boils down to picking your favorite or not.

Good or bad is indeed subjective, hence it does mean you would often pick your favorite, but that doesn't diminish the purpose of this thread. You are playing with semantics.

EDIT: Ok. Seems like you at least updated your post to a better response.
 
So it's a list of your favorite female characters, then.

Under the context that you're holding them up as examples of the best that demographic has been depicted. You might like them, they might be your favorite, but this is more a discussion of the entire female video game character meta rather than any particular character.

For example: I wouldn't say Master Chief is the best character in gaming - or even necessarily a good character - even though he is one of my personal favorites. Even further, I can't discuss with you whether or not a certain character is your favorite character. But I can discuss with you whether that character is a "good/bad" character.

There is a clear dichotomy drawn between one's personal favorite character, and a character they think is a good representation of the demographic that character belongs, even though overlap of the two concepts does often happen. These discussions have value.
 
I always thought Lulu from FFX was a good depiction of a good female character. Of course, one might think: BEWBS but that or her sex appeal was NEVER a plot point or the focus in the game. She might not be physically strong but her mental stability is really admirable because she lost 2 dear people to Sin, failed 2 pilgrimages and yet continues on to guard Yuna on her own pilgrimage to stop Sin. Look at Auron: he was a total wreck after Braska and Jecht died. Her calm, mature, serious attitude combined with her intelligence and knowledge surely left an impression imo.
 
Samus was always a great female character to me because it wasn't important or made a big deal what her gender was (Other M doesn't exist). Kinda like Bill in The Last of Us
where his sexuality is subtly alluded to but isn't made to be some defining character trait
.
 
Samus was always a great female character to me because it wasn't important or made a big deal what her gender was (Other M doesn't exist). Kinda like Bill in The Last of Us
where his sexuality is subtly alluded to but isn't made to be some defining character trait
.

I was very impressed by Bill also.

THE BABY!
 

Thanks for the lengthy response of your experience, and the LttP & OoT spoilers since I haven't played them yet (kidding though, since I should've already played them and still plan to), but I was hoping for more, numerous examples of girl power showing up in the 90s as maybe an effect of the media.

All I can think of right now is from the Genesis/SNES era, including Phantasy Star IV, FFVI, a few beat'em ups and fighters with playable female characters if those count, and that's it. I'm probably missing several from the Saturn/PSX/N64.
 
crtl + F Lillet Blan.

For shame, GAF. At least just about every other answer I would have given is here. Kreya/Samus/Chris from S3 are also personal favs of mine.

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All of the nuances in her story
and why she's not quite the same as Ellie regarding child/adult
that make her so endearing to me would be fairly spoilerish, but I'll just say she goes into her new school a young student and comes out of the as a both hero of the school and the entire country.
 
why do women have to be represented as tough to be called worthwhile characters?
Because most of the time, they're weak damsels in distress or insipid love interests. It's not all to make them "tough" obviously, but it's infinitely preferable to the previous alternative.

so many female characters with varying degrees of characterisations, etc. but somehow ellie and tess get the trophy for best women representation. why? because they're tough and weild guns and do "manly" stuff and say "manly" words? i really don't get it.
What are "manly" words? What manly things do they do exactly?

I don't think a foul mouthed is a realistic depiction of young girl around her age right? Or is it only in my country that both males or girls is not supposed to speak that foul language to anyone?
Because teenagers never do what they're not "supposed to", especially during a zombie apocalypse. LOL.

As a teen I swore far more than Ellie ever did.

Exactly. She does fuck all and we know shit about her. Just because she's not sexually objectified and spout stupid dialogue does not make her a good characters
It wouldn't... but it does, because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is. ;)

What's the difference between Mrs. Man and Man with Boobs? That's the same thing right?
Nah. "Mrs. Male Character" is an old trope of having a token female character who's just a reskin of the male character with a feminine attribute, such as Mrs. Pacman. A common manifestation of the trope is the Smurfette syndrome, where you have an ensemble of male characters, each with their specific attribute, and their single female counterpart, whose defining attribute is... being female. For example in the Smurfs you have the smart wanna-be moralist, the handy mechanic, the soulful poet, the funny jester, etc. and you have the female one.

"Man with boobs" on the other hand, isn't modelled after an existing male character or male cast, but is just a character who acts exactly like a man would but happens to be female. To be quite honest, I don't have a problem with this trope at all. Being feminine isn't a bad thing for a female character to be, but then again it's not a bad thing for a male character either, and the reverse is true. As a tomboy myself I have no problem with the tomboyish/"man with boobs" type. I'm curious how Anita will explain that one.

You know what I find somewhat bizarre about the whole women in games? The only reason classic Lara Croft isn't a "good" representation is because of her appearance

Literally every other aspect about her is almost ignored because of tits. She's one of the most knowledgeable and competent characters in her respective game and field. She has an actual personality, isn't just a guy with tits, and can kick ass.

That being said, I do understand how you don't want a walking caricature of bad design, it's just a bit sad they would create what would otherwise be an excellent example
True. That's the fault of the character designer though. If you want your character to be taken even remotely seriously, don't make her so pitifully pandering. That said, the modern Lara Croft (2013 as opposed to classic Lara) is the other way around; she looks more proportionate, but her character is beyond boring. XD

And she also made TLoU better. Good for Anita, she makes mistakes but she's a positive influence in the industry.
 
I think it just comes back to have generally well written characters.

Like, I'd say that Grace Peyton from Lost Planet 3 is also a good representation even though she assumes a more traditional role of a house wife. You only see her in the game through video messages she sends to her husband, but you can really feel how there's a whole character beneath there who struggles with taking care of her child while also supporting her husband.

http://youtu.be/slLSllzfxMU

True but again. This is a huge problem. We're not looking at these characters as to what they bring to the game/form of media but that they're a gender first. As made evident by other users that it's a hypocritical stereotype. In order for a female to be considered "acceptable" they have to be "strong and tough". I like Ellie but she's far from a stand out character like Bayonetta. It's like, you can't be have a fun loving diverse character with different characteristics and traits or heck, even have a level of sex appeal otherwise they're for some reason looked down upon.

Same with Grace Peyton or Nicole Clarke. Both have very similar roles but I wouldn't consider them good representation of women. They're just good characters within this game.

Because most of the time, they're weak damsels in distress or insipid love interests. It's not all to make them "tough" obviously, but it's infinitely preferable to the previous alternative.
There's nothing wrong with Princess Peach though. The only time people should get annoyed is when there is a statement to be made. If Nintendo made a statement about how "all that females are only good for are being captured" then yes. That would be a statement worth fighting back against. When you make a character like Princess Peach but don't make any statement towards [insert group] then I still don't understand where the negativity comes from? What other female character is a damsel in distress AND makes a statement that females are useless?
You could argue Zelda but then that has context for her being captured. Even then, she is strong enough to be come a character like Sheik.
Keep in mind Nintendo made Metroid in 1986.

It wouldn't... but it does, because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is. ;)
This entire thread is dedicated to good female characters and you're using "because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is". This thread is why that statement is a bad generalisation. If the state of the industry is bad, then why is this thread able to give so many examples (plus more that haven't even been mentioned)?

And she also made TLoU better. Good for Anita, she makes mistakes but she's a positive influence in the industry.
I'm glad Anita brought this topic into the spot light but she is far from the person to talking about the subject matter. Anita has a very uneducated view on media in general.
 
This entire thread is dedicated to good female characters and you're using "because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is". This thread is why that statement is a bad generalisation. If the state of the industry is bad, then why is this thread able to give so many examples (plus more that haven't even been mentioned)?

Another good one: Catiua from Tactics Ogre.

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alyx by a landslide. from a 10 year old game.
its a shame that its seemingly so hard to just portray women as human persons.

best in the cinematic mod, of course:
this is a huge joke
 
Yes OP.

The rest of you keep on posting the same old anonymous boring characters.

EDIT: I mean seriously, Chun Li? A fighting game character?
 
As mediocre as I thought the game was, Nilin from Remember Me was a great way to represent women in videogames

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And I always made sure that my character from Saints Row 3 and 4 were female.
 
Especially when people call out Femshep, she's saving the fucking galaxy through military force. You don't do that "like a girl". Unless the story is actually about gender or sex and societal crap I seldom see why women should act clearly distinctly from men, especially when we're talking "shit is trying to kill you". Fighting back when something's trying to slaughter you/your planet/the galaxy isnt' "being a man" it's just the appropriate response.

You seemed to be adding a meaning to my words that wasn't intended. I apologise if I wasn't clear enough. One point: I actually think Femshep is pretty good. She is a captain of a space ship rather than Rambo, and many of the dialogue options make sense coming from a woman (especially considering the fantastic voice actress). I only play Mass Effect as Femshep.

It's not about the fighting or military, the problem is people seem to think that just because a poorly written women is acting like a badass that it's a good representation. The badass woman can simply be a sexual fantasy itself, or as I mentioned earlier a man with boobs. The way some of these female characters act is hardly different from how the male characters act. Machismo bullshit mostly. It's not really the actions I'm getting at, it's more the personalities (or lack thereof like Samus). Obviously you're going to have a chick who kills people in a game about killing people, but why does she have to talk and act like a man?

There's a difference between "who are you favourite female badasses" and "who are the best representations of women" - at least in my reading of it.

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Juniper is a pretty good representation of a woman in a game. She's different from Oak and the male professors, with her own personality, yet still a senior member of the pokémon academic circle (that was a hard sentence to write seriously).

I hope I got my point across which the tl;dr version is basically personality is what I have a problem with, not actions.
 
As an 80s kid with fond memories of the 90s, I remember the girl power vibe of the 90s too, but I don't remember it much translating into gaming.

And I think game companies are obsessing more over the money that comes with a certain masculine demographic, not just for the sake of the demographic; games like Halo (at one point) and CoD have proven it's a financially reliable demograpic. If either of those didn't work out, it'd be interesting to see what else would dominate the market and create multiple clones.



It's sad that I can't say you're actually kidding, even with the ":P"

I think computer games paved the way this type of game. consoles were too conservative but 20 years later they seem to have caught on....

eg Kings Quest VII

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or even Phantasmagoria 1. it was the only game my teenage sister was interested back then....btw a movie is on the way!

http://www.gamerqc.com/2014/01/18/e...-cooper-productrice-du-film-phantasmagoria/2/

images
 
In order for a female to be considered "acceptable" they have to be "strong and tough".
No one has said they have to be. But it's refreshing when they are, and even more so when they are in a believable manner rather than a cartoon way, such as Bayo...

I like Ellie but she's far from a stand out character like Bayonetta.
Hahaha what

There's nothing wrong with Princess Peach though. The only time people should get annoyed is when there is a statement to be made. If Nintendo made a statement about how "all that females are only good for are being captured" then yes. That would be a statement worth fighting back against. When you make a character like Princess Peach but don't make any statement towards [insert group] then I still don't understand where the negativity comes from? What other female character is a damsel in distress AND makes a statement that females are useless?
You could argue Zelda but then that has context for her being captured. Even then, she is strong enough to be come a character like Sheik.
What is this nonsense? You don't have to "make a statement" explicitly for a trope to be problematic. The problem with DiD is how prevalent they are, which in itself is a form of statement (even if it's just laziness, it's still rooted in a sexist mindset). It's very telling that Peach is a DiD in most mainline Mario games, and the only game where she's the sole playable character, she attacks enemies with her mood swings.

Keep in mind Nintendo made Metroid in 1986.
Yeah, the game that doesn't even tell the players the character is a girl, but instead rewards the player with a girl with less clothing the faster you complete it. A girl in underwear as a reward is so progressive!

This entire thread is dedicated to good female characters and you're using "because that's how bad the state of female characters in the industry is". This thread is why that statement is a bad generalisation. If the state of the industry is bad, then why is this thread able to give so many examples (plus more that haven't even been mentioned)?
Because there's far more bad female characters than good ones. Obviously there's some progress being made recently, but a few good examples do not make the bad magically disappear. FFS, I checked two random games on the Steam homepage recently, and both had female "warriors" with super-skimpy and heavily sexualized outfits. We still have long ways to go.
 
In general, I think Sega has done a great job with female characters going all the way back to the matriarch of female game characters, Alis Landale.

alis1.jpg


Alis being a woman doesn't mean anything. She could have just as easily have been a male character who's seeking vengeance for the death of a brother and taking down a corrupt galactic empire. She's just a bad ass. Phantasy Star, being a Master System game, is pretty primitive in terms of character development but in general I think the Phantasy Star series does a great job at its portrayal of women and I suspect having a female fronted development team is the reason. This is why women are so important for game development. Sega should get credit for being pretty early in giving a woman, Rieko Kodama, such a prominent role in development. Her games do a great job at not alienating women at the same time many others (Sega included) were.

Most of my favorite female characters, such as Aika, Elenor Camuel, and Rika come from her games.
 
Can't believe people are seriously posting Samus as great representation of women. She doesn't even fucking talk.

Ellie is probably the best and most "authentic" female character I've seen in a game - this largely boils down to both the writing choices and performance from Ashley Johnson.

There are many other examples of "strong" female characters like The Boss from MGS, but I feel that none of them get the attention to character development that ND gave Ellie.
 
In general, I think Sega has done a great job with female characters going all the way back to the matriarch of female game characters, Alis Landale.

Alis being a woman doesn't mean anything. She could have just as easily have been a male character who's seeking vengeance for the death of a brother and taking down a corrupt galactic empire. She's just a bad ass. Phantasy Star, being a Master System game, is pretty primitive in terms of character development but in general I think the Phantasy Star series does a great job at its portrayal of women and I suspect having a female fronted development team is the reason. This is why women are so important for game development. Sega should get credit for being pretty early in giving a woman, Rieko Kodama, such a prominent role in development. Her games do a great job at not alienating women at the same time many others (Sega included) were.

Most of my favorite female characters, such as Aika, Elenor Camuel, and Rika come from her games.
I agree, Alys Brangwin from PS4 is the best. <3 Rieko is awesome. I miss her.
 
PS1 Alis is one of the best representations of women in gaming. She doesn't go out of her way to show she's a badass by being edgy. She's just a warrior who starts a quest for revenge that leads to more. She wears sensible armor and doesn't strike poses that makes it look like her back is broken.
 
I think you're missing my point completely. It was a thought exercise, not a complaint that men aren't being represented fairly in video games. The point is that its silly to think there's any 'best' representation of women, as if what a woman is is pre-defined and you can rank representations of them according to that definition.

And that what the obvious answers are are the most politically correct ones, cuz naming some girly girl is not politically correct, even though there are girls like that.

Are you sparking all these thought exercises to practice for the mental gymnastics?
 
coolest female videogame character ever!

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this one too

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a pity that they were and still are exceptions to the rule....
 
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