Oh god, this this this this this. It'd be like saying the main character in COD or BF is the best representation of a man.
are Tess and Ellie the best representation of "women" in videogames yet? who else?
- Thread starter ThatStupidLion
- Start date
Oh god, this this this this this. It'd be like saying the main character in COD or BF is the best representation of a man.
SerTapTap
Member
Strictly speaking for JP games, Baiken is a surprisingly good representation IMO. One of precious few female japanese VO with a deep voice, battle scarred, tough as hell, lethal with a sword. Stark contrast to the squeaky voiced pretty girl using lame non-lethal weapons trope in most fighting games...well, including Guilty Gear I guess, but Guilty Gear subverts as much as accepts the trope. And dudes get weird weapons too.
I guess I just hate squeaky voices all the time, which more JP games had voices/characters like Baiken.
Edit:
I hear this a lot and I honestly can't really agree. This whole "OMG she's just a man with girlparts" always comes off as typical gender role bullshit. Especially when people call out Femshep, she's saving the fucking galaxy through military force. You don't do that "like a girl". Unless the story is actually about gender or sex and societal crap I seldom see why women should act clearly distinctly from men, especially when we're talking "shit is trying to kill you". Fighting back when something's trying to slaughter you/your planet/the galaxy isnt' "being a man" it's just the appropriate response.
I guess I just hate squeaky voices all the time, which more JP games had voices/characters like Baiken.
Edit:
I hear this a lot and I honestly can't really agree. This whole "OMG she's just a man with girlparts" always comes off as typical gender role bullshit. Especially when people call out Femshep, she's saving the fucking galaxy through military force. You don't do that "like a girl". Unless the story is actually about gender or sex and societal crap I seldom see why women should act clearly distinctly from men, especially when we're talking "shit is trying to kill you". Fighting back when something's trying to slaughter you/your planet/the galaxy isnt' "being a man" it's just the appropriate response.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Not sure if serious
Seems like all my female friends are lusting after me when they hug me. Damn, should have picked up on that earlier.
EvilKatarn
Member
PfantzyPantz
Member
Kaine herself is really high up there for me, but I wouldn't be surprised at people replying about how
she isn't a "woman"
And yeah, her grandma is hype.
Tye The Czar
Member
in b4 people who never played the game
also i sure hope people don't confuse "mature" or "best presentation" with gruffs who never smile.
I wholeheartedly agree with Bayonetta.
- She's legitimately independent.
- Dominates in interactions with the opposite sex
- Is confident and self-aware about her sexuality, using it in a tongue-in-cheek manner
- This character analysis right here.
Notable mentions should also go to:
Estelle Bright from Trails in the Sky
The entire female cast of the 15+ game long Touhou Project series.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
It's sad to see people argue in favour of "good representation" followed by saying things like this.
Okay...I guess there are two definitions. Idealized characters and realistic characters. Idealized men and women tend to be exaggerated representations of how men see themselves and how they want to see women. Realistic however is...well, realistic. Characters that aren't doing much to impress anyone are probably the most realistic.
Realistic "Best Representation"
Male:
Gorman from Majora's Mask, Carpenter's Apprentice in Majora's Mask, James from Silent Hill 2 etc. Real men have a crap ton of depth, they wear facades and when they break they do not always break gracefully. They are good and bad, wrong and right, weak and strong. Each character has a mix of meekness and strength.
Women:
Mary from Silent Hill 2, Anju from Majora's Mask...That's a short list. But you get the idea that they have a lot of depth too. They are weak and frail, they suck at being perfect for their spouse. They wear facades of politeness and kindness but every now and then you see they are definitely not always good people. You also see loyalty and strength along with doubt and fear.
Notice these guys are rarely protagonists...?
Idealistic "Best Representation"
Male:
Perfect and hyper masculine: Kratos, Marcus, Batman etc
Perfect and relatable: Link, Mario, Nathan Drake etc
Female:
Perfect, frail and chaste: Zelda, Peach, Aerith, Ellie etc
Perfect and sexy: Samus, Bayonetta, Lara Croft etc
Just for some parallels...Ancient Rome was really into idealistic figures, but during times of depression and war they started to enjoy drawing old women and men and getting really realistic and emotional with their sculpture. Compare Classic Roman art to late Hellenistic Roman art.
I'm sort of interested in how Anita Sarkeesian will tackle the issue. IIRC was "Men with boobs" on her list.
I can definitely see where it's coming from since some people seem to think that in order to make a woman a badass she has to shed everything that's considered feminine.
Yeah, it's interesting because video games are a different art form and have to be judged with a different set of criteria. Of course a lot of how we view/read other art forms also apply to videogames, but games are also unique for their interactivity and combining of multiple arts.
I think Samus is an awesome female character because she was orphaned, adopted by a now extinct race, and now carries on their legacy. She is one of a kind. And in each game excluding Other M, Samus lands alone on a dangerous, mysterious planet and goes it alone. Then there's what you do as Samus that makes that journey so awesome. It's possible to argue that Samus isn't much of a gendered character or even much of a character at all but I disagree.
We all are. It's the one part of the greater conversation we've all been waiting for from people like her.
The problem is that it's never going to happen. People who argue from that perspective have no solutions. Oh they will rabble-rouse night and day how portrayals are never what they should or could be but ask them for an alternative or solution and they have absolutely nothing to offer. So if men-with-boobs is the subject line they would need to paint a picture of an irrefutable example, speculative or otherwise, and there are none they are willing to come up with because the act of defining a superlative set of qualities is a sin in-of-itself due to the inherently exclusive nature of superlatives and this is counter-intuitive to their stance on the greater discussion.
She usually gives examples of people who subvert the tropes at the end of each trope analysis...
What's the difference between Mrs. Man and Man with Boobs? That's the same thing right?
...Scatter...
Banned
My girl:
Agreed.Chris from Suikoden III is probably my favorite female protagonist, design and personality wise. She's awesome.
The Suikoden games are so well done, I wish 1-5 were available on EU PSN.
She generally just shows a list of games that fall within a trope. Explains why the trope is potentially harmful to the perception of women. Then lists a bunch of games that offer better solutions. Of course...all of those games are from the 90s or from indie developers. The 90s had a ton of girl power stuff in the media, so that makes sense. (glad I'm a 90s kid)
Which pretty much means games have gotten more sexist as they've begun to obsess over a certain masculine demographic.
It sounds like you didn't actually watch Anita's videos...There's really not much to them, so they should be easy to understand. You could go to TVTropes to get the same information. There are no "right" representations for women...just a lot of really bad, archaic and harmful representations.
thesolidshark
Member
As an 80s kid with fond memories of the 90s, I remember the girl power vibe of the 90s too, but I don't remember it much translating into gaming.
And I think game companies are obsessing more over the money that comes with a certain masculine demographic, not just for the sake of the demographic; games like Halo (at one point) and CoD have proven it's a financially reliable demograpic. If either of those didn't work out, it'd be interesting to see what else would dominate the market and create multiple clones.
There are no "right" representations for women...just a lot of really bad, archaic and harmful representations.
It's sad that I can't say you're actually kidding, even with the "
"Hmm...Just comparing A Link to the Past to Ocarina of Time, you'll see a dramatic change in how the female characters are actually...characters. Most notably Zelda pretends to be a man for the majority of the game. That and Mulan (was that the 90s?) really brought about this idea that girls are people who can do things too. The ancient sages that I assumed to be old wise men, ended up being predominantly female. Both of the princesses were tomboys who enjoy or envy doing what boys do. The ranch girl, Malon has the fastest record for horseback riding. The only human enemies you fight are women. That's a lot of girl stuff! Those were small changes but it felt like a big step and definitely helped suck me into the game and relate to several of the female characters. I actually like the rest of the series a lot less just because the other titles didn't seem to care as much. (In fact SS felt extremely offensive to me) Being a seven year old girl, and playing OoT blew my small stankin' mind. It was like they knew girls play games too...which is something a lot of people try to deny.
There was a time when a guy would do something cool or heroic and then a father would hand his daughter off as a present. The girl never had much say or much personality. She was more of a gift for the hero to enjoy. Things are a bit different now, the girls in the stories now have started to talk and have at least the illusion of freedom or agency. In OoT they even avoid the "male entitlement" thing. Zelda is not rewarded to Link but instead permanently cuts herself off from him, with her last words expressing a concern for Link's emotional well-being as a child pretending to be a man. She knew the right gift would be another chance for genuine maturation and individuation as oppose to...a relationship. Like, holy cow, this game was making some serious statements.
Women are still largely expected to be used as gifts (emotional and/or sexual gifts)...but they're more spunky, talkative and rebellious now. Like Jasmine in Alladin or something. Unfortunately there aren't that many females created to be anything other than gifts and supports for guys.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
You know what I find somewhat bizarre about the whole women in games? The only reason classic Lara Croft isn't a "good" representation is because of her appearance
Literally every other aspect about her is almost ignored because of tits. She's one of the most knowledgeable and competent characters in her respective game and field. She has an actual personality, isn't just a guy with tits, and can kick ass.
That being said, I do understand how you don't want a walking caricature of bad design, it's just a bit sad they would create what would otherwise be an excellent example
Literally every other aspect about her is almost ignored because of tits. She's one of the most knowledgeable and competent characters in her respective game and field. She has an actual personality, isn't just a guy with tits, and can kick ass.
That being said, I do understand how you don't want a walking caricature of bad design, it's just a bit sad they would create what would otherwise be an excellent example
There's no "u" in Lara.
She generally just shows a list of games that fall within a trope. Explains why the trope is potentially harmful to the perception of women. Then lists a bunch of games that offer better solutions. Of course...all of those games are from the 90s or from indie developers. The 90s had a ton of girl power stuff in the media, so that makes sense. (glad I'm a 90s kid)
Which pretty much means games have gotten more sexist as they've begun to obsess over a certain masculine demographic.
It sounds like you didn't actually watch Anita's videos...There's really not much to them, so they should be easy to understand. You could go to TVTropes to get the same information. There are no "right" representations for women...just a lot of really bad, archaic and harmful representations.
She also did this.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120777577&postcount=1345
O lawdy. I wish people didn't use intellectualization to avoid, undermine and deny the point of these videos.
She seems fine. The only problem is how the story and gameplay have a terrible disconnect. Also...I don't want to protect Lara.
Mona Sax
I like Mona. I also like how you play as her to get Max out of a bind as well.
Edit:
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For the younglings: It's Elaine from Monkey Island. Not the helpless damsel in distress you'd expect.
Elaine is great as well.
viveks86
Member
I think you missed the part where BeatResetsTheWorld said "classic" Lara.
Hmm, well I don't think she's wrong.
When I play games I spend an excessive amount of time screwing around and seeing what I can get away with. Games are a form of escapism where you are invited to do what ever you want without the consequence you would feel in real life.
Killing people in games is a good cathartic feeling that releases any tension you might feel in real life. Likewise any odd forms of sexist...stuff is their to release any tension you might feel in real life (towards women). We need movies, games and other forms of expression to channel negative energy into harmless or positive energy. Action movies, sexual content, and petty drama stories are the best way to entertain the masses simply because we all have primal energy and these games/shows help satisfy those suppressed feelings. This is why games are excessively violent and "misogynistic." They channel those "bad" feelings into harmless pretend/virtual abuse.
That's what's happening with those floppy strippers. Whether this is a good thing to capitalize on...welllllllll.
Whoops. I don't relate to Lara because of her over sexualization. But I enjoy the titles regardless.
It's a thread to bring to light instances of characters from a demographic that has minimal variety. Most depictions of female characters are stereotypical and lacking in agency, so a thread to celebrate the characters who break from that mold is refreshing.
Your invocation of political correctness is as transparent as it is baseless. Participate in good faith or not at all.
SixMachine
Member
I personally find Faith and Alyx Vance boring. I know someone in the thread said that it's a good thing if a character like Faith is easily replaceable, whether it be a monkey or a man, but that's just a sign of a hollow character devoid of any endearing qualities besides visual design.
I personally like Palutena from Kid Icarus even though Nintendo likes to give her the Shaft treatment in those animated shorts. I think characters with enjoyable personalities are the most interesting and I could say a lot of characters in that game seem that way.
Also the Breath of Fire series always had interesting characters
Storywise Momo does a lot of heavy lifting since there is a lot of machinery and tech the group encounters, so she does a lot of stuff in the events. In battle she uses a freaking bazooka, though I recommend something to help with her accuracy but other than that, she hits rather hard with it.
Ursula has no fucks to give. She is no nonsense and takes everything seriously, and doesn't give a damn about being ladylike. She's also pretty decent in battle too since her gun skills can multi target and she has fire spells. It's pretty hilarious that the version in US was censored because there were situations with her showing how she doesn't give a damn.
Context for this scene is that these sailors were manly men and didn't like women like Nina and Ursula on the boat. The part where Nina and her have to spend in the boat is pretty hilarious because it shows nothing really scares her at all, even malicious ghosts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsz7MEeY4zM
I personally like Palutena from Kid Icarus even though Nintendo likes to give her the Shaft treatment in those animated shorts. I think characters with enjoyable personalities are the most interesting and I could say a lot of characters in that game seem that way.
Also the Breath of Fire series always had interesting characters
Storywise Momo does a lot of heavy lifting since there is a lot of machinery and tech the group encounters, so she does a lot of stuff in the events. In battle she uses a freaking bazooka, though I recommend something to help with her accuracy but other than that, she hits rather hard with it.
Ursula has no fucks to give. She is no nonsense and takes everything seriously, and doesn't give a damn about being ladylike. She's also pretty decent in battle too since her gun skills can multi target and she has fire spells. It's pretty hilarious that the version in US was censored because there were situations with her showing how she doesn't give a damn.
Context for this scene is that these sailors were manly men and didn't like women like Nina and Ursula on the boat. The part where Nina and her have to spend in the boat is pretty hilarious because it shows nothing really scares her at all, even malicious ghosts
But obviously she hates lice since she is a grassrunner.
Byakuya769
Member
I keep trying to give you a fair shake, but man--you make it impossible. Listing non-stereotypical female characters in an industry drenched in stereotypical women is "PC"?
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Corronchilejano
Member
She just does not give a fuck.
She's pretty much the Marquee of Athlums' foster mother but her title as general comes first. When terrorists attack and kidnap fellow soldiers she just goes in and bashes their faces in, because that's her job and...
When its her job to protect Athlum she does so without batting an eye even against insurmountable odds. I daresay the whole Honeywell clan is filled with badass, identifying themselves because of their prowess in battle, and not their femininity.
Her daughter has her same brand of badass too.
Angelus Errare
Banned
She never gets mentioned in these discussions I assume because it's such a niche game and you don't meet her until the second one in the series, but without a doubt, the strongest, best representation of a woman I have ever seen in a game is Kaoru Sayama from Yakuza 2. Without question.
She is smarter and more determined than all of the men surrounding her, and has to be ten times tougher because nearly everyone she has to deal with is a womanizer, criminal, brutish mobster type. And she's not just the badass woman archetype either, she is tough, but also has weaknesses and nuance. Her dialog is extremely well-written and the romance between her and Kazuma that develops is some of the smartest, most human drama ever done in games. People think of Yakuza as just a beat em up, but there is more dialog and character building in the series than almost anything else in games.
*Fistbump*
justjustin
Member
Any answer is going to have its problems. I'm going with the safest response and saying no character in any videogame would make a good role model for any person.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
That's not even what the thread title was asking about...
The Boss - MGS3
Strong both physically and in will, she's not overly sexualized (no, unstrapping her sneaking suit near the end was not done because tits), her relationships with the other characters are far deeper than just being romantic and she's a complete individual. Perhaps most importantly, her being a woman is not constantly shoved in your face but her gender is also not irrelevant, the character simply would not work as well if she was male.
She's the best female character, and one of the best characters period, in gaming.
Strong both physically and in will, she's not overly sexualized (no, unstrapping her sneaking suit near the end was not done because tits), her relationships with the other characters are far deeper than just being romantic and she's a complete individual. Perhaps most importantly, her being a woman is not constantly shoved in your face but her gender is also not irrelevant, the character simply would not work as well if she was male.
She's the best female character, and one of the best characters period, in gaming.
Refreshment.01
Member
Thread title: "BEST REPRESENTATION OF WOMEN".
Yet the majority of the responses seem to be powerful, empowered and magnanimous women stereotypes. The equivalent of the male power fantasies with women skin. Most of these characters would work as a male protagonist withouth losing much of what makes the character in the process, because the femininity of said characters doesn't play an important role of their essence.
In the above tenor, if the thread was about "Best Represenattion of Men" in videogames the list would be dominated by characters that share similar traits to what we see in the thread. This just tell us that representation of human characters has longs way to go in videogames and that we as an audience (an audience that btw is very vocal about wanting maturity of the content portrayed) has long ways to go in that way.
Regarding Ellie.
How is this one of the best representations of women in games?
http://youtu.be/btJMwxzPyGA?t=18m47s
A 14 year old killing machine the likes of Rambo would look like a breast feeding baby. The Last of Us gets a free pass in how misused was the character in here in detriment to the whole experience.
Some nice pre rendered cutscenes doesn't erase the fact how disconnected the game segments feel from the rest of the game.
Yet the majority of the responses seem to be powerful, empowered and magnanimous women stereotypes. The equivalent of the male power fantasies with women skin. Most of these characters would work as a male protagonist withouth losing much of what makes the character in the process, because the femininity of said characters doesn't play an important role of their essence.
In the above tenor, if the thread was about "Best Represenattion of Men" in videogames the list would be dominated by characters that share similar traits to what we see in the thread. This just tell us that representation of human characters has longs way to go in videogames and that we as an audience (an audience that btw is very vocal about wanting maturity of the content portrayed) has long ways to go in that way.
Regarding Ellie.
How is this one of the best representations of women in games?
http://youtu.be/btJMwxzPyGA?t=18m47s
A 14 year old killing machine the likes of Rambo would look like a breast feeding baby. The Last of Us gets a free pass in how misused was the character in here in detriment to the whole experience.
Some nice pre rendered cutscenes doesn't erase the fact how disconnected the game segments feel from the rest of the game.
Dice//
Banned
Thread needs more Lenneth
One of the women who didn't let her "love story" make her more vulnerable.
Strong to the end, but still enough of a woman without needing to tread "tomboy" territory.
Some fun article on Women in Games (URL says it better, and article is more 'fluffy' than stirring, but a fun read anyways)
http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2014/0...haracters-are-the-best-video-game-characters/
One of the women who didn't let her "love story" make her more vulnerable.
Strong to the end, but still enough of a woman without needing to tread "tomboy" territory.
Some fun article on Women in Games (URL says it better, and article is more 'fluffy' than stirring, but a fun read anyways)
http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2014/0...haracters-are-the-best-video-game-characters/
Deified Data
Banned
What is a "good" representation of a woman, and why am I or anyone else in this thread (male or female) qualified to decide?
I have favorite female characters, but are they "good representations" of women? They're women. Sometimes they're realistic and sometimes they're not, just like men. Some strong, some weak, some warlike, some nurturing, and any number of things in between. There isn't a checklist of qualities in my head that makes a female character a "good representative". On that basis I challenge the premise of the thread, unless we're honest with ourselves and call it what it is: a list of our favorite female characters, irrespective of meta gender politics.
I have favorite female characters, but are they "good representations" of women? They're women. Sometimes they're realistic and sometimes they're not, just like men. Some strong, some weak, some warlike, some nurturing, and any number of things in between. There isn't a checklist of qualities in my head that makes a female character a "good representative". On that basis I challenge the premise of the thread, unless we're honest with ourselves and call it what it is: a list of our favorite female characters, irrespective of meta gender politics.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
This babe right here:
Sexy, despite physically tough he keeps her femininity, strong willed, determinated to help her friends, very passionate about who she loves;
Sexy, despite physically tough he keeps her femininity, strong willed, determinated to help her friends, very passionate about who she loves;