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[el retorno]

We have buses and light rails here in Phoenix.

To be fair Phoenix doesn't look that bad in US terms. And what about the rest of the state? Rural cities?

Yeah most towns only have bus lines that run every hour. Major cities obviously do not but get outside of them and you're looking at a lot of wait time unless there is some kind of train.

It was so depressing coming back to the US. It sucks in every city compared to even small towns in Europe. Out of the cities I've been to I've only ever been impressed with DC and New York. Boston wasn't bad either. Everywhere else a car is a must for any sense of independence.

yeah, screw fake transportation, so fake

Because It doesn't replace having a car. Say for instance you're kid gets sick or has an issue before your shift. If you have to wait an hour for a bus to go one place and then maybe an hour to another do you think that the transportation service is worth a damn? Do you think your boss is going to understand being two hours late because you had no other way there?

 

[IronFistedChampion]

we should spend more tax money to build more bus stops so the people who broke the law can get to work.

Yep tax money that the people who "broke the law" paid for just like everybody else.

Seriously, go troll elsewhere.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

If it's not really decent or someone has to transfer a lot which might make them late, it's not really reliable or prompt some times. If you don't want to get fired a car is definitely better.

Of course, I'd rather have a helicopter, but how they get to work isn't the issue. The point is, a drivers license isn't required for work or to work.

 

[Devolution]

This is news? Since when can states not nullify federal law?

Federal law trumps state law dude. Why do you think dispensaries are getting closed?

Of course, I'd rather have a helicopter, but how they get to work isn't the issue. The point is, a drivers license isn't required for work or to work.

Now you're just being willfully ignorant. There are jobs that require your own car and public transit in most areas is a joke and not reliable.

 

[Chumly]

Arizona is clearly in the wrong here.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Could you imagine being brought to the USA when you were 2 years old, growing up here your whole life, and then facing deportation to a country that you have absolutely no memory of and may not even speak the language?

Well if you can't imagine that situation or you just don't give a fuck about the person in such a situation, you just may be Jan Brewer.

Preach it sis.

 

[John Rabbit]

Yep tax money that the people who "broke the law" paid for just like everybody else.

Seriously, go troll elsewhere.

you'll notice i didn't make the common mistake of saying "american tax dollars" so as to posit that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes.

however, given that there are steep penalties for employing illegal immigrants, and given the nature of work many illegal immigrants undertake, a large portion of the money exchanged for their services is in fact of the cash variety. thus it goes unreported; thus untaxed.

Now you're just being willfully ignorant. There are jobs that require your own car and public transit in most areas is a joke and not reliable.

then it is likely you are a skilled worker and able to make enough money to purchase transportation for yourself. i am unsure how it is arizona's fault their public transportation infrastructure is inadequate for an untold/undocumented number of people attempting to use it.

 

[Emwitus]

Unless your job description requires you to drive, you don't need a driver's license. There is a thing called public transportation.

The job requires you to show a valid license and there are many and arizona is not a oasis of "public" transportation.

EDIT: And again, International students as well as most immigrants not carrying a green card are only required to show a valid EAD to get a driver's license, which they will have. So why deny the Card?

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Federal law trumps state law dude. Why do you think dispensaries are getting closed?





Now you're just being willfully ignorant. There are jobs that require your own car and public transit in most areas is a joke and not reliable.

Willfully ignorant? I guess you missed my first post "Unless your job description requires you to drive, you don't need a driver's license." Not ignorant at all, and if you're in a position where you're not legally able to get a driver's license, then you probably shouldn't be finding a job that requires you to drive.

 

[antonz]

Its hard to compare transportation of New York to a place like Phoenix. The Phoenix Metropolitan area is over 16 thousand square miles. New York City is 300 square miles

 

[Devolution]

Willfully ignorant? I guess you missed my first post "Unless your job description requires you to drive, you don't need a driver's license." Not ignorant at all, and if you're in a position where you're not legally able to get a driver's license, then you probably shouldn't be finding a job that requires you to drive.

Yes those people should just up and find another job. Again, willful ignorance.

 

[el retorno]

you'll notice i didn't make the common mistake of saying "american tax dollars" so as to posit that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes.

however, given that there are steep penalties for employing illegal immigrants, and given the nature of work many illegal immigrants undertake, a large portion of the money exchanged for their services is in fact of the cash variety. thus it goes unreported; thus untaxed.

Do they buy anything?

Its hard to compare transportation of New York to a place like Phoenix. The Phoenix Metropolitan area is over 16 thousand square miles. New York City is 300 square miles

What do you mean its hard to compare? They're are differences yes. All that means to be is that Phoenix needs to do more work and maybe charge a bit more due to cost differences. If cars can drive and manage a few more buses can. There are also major arteries. We don't need a bus on every street.

That's a copout answer admitting that you're not even going to try.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Yes those people should just up and find another job. Again, willful ignorance.

No, that's bad planning on the person who feels the only thing they can do is drive a vehicle.

 

[Tenck]

Do they buy anything?

Yeah, under the table!!!

 

[Devolution]

No, that's bad planning on the person who feels the only thing they can do is drive a vehicle.

Bad planning? Do you think that they can afford to just take a job that has them rely on public transport or won't notice their tardiness?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Sounds more and more like another publicity stunt from Brewer. This doesn't do anything to federal law

Even the governor admitted at a news conference late in the day that nothing really changed because of her order. “It actually is no different than what was already in place,” Brewer said.

She also struggled to describe her action on a conservative talk radio show in Phoenix, saying it was only meant to guide state workers on how to handle the situation.

“It was an order to clarify where Arizona stands on this position so there would be no confusion for the directors of my agencies,” the governor said in the phone interview with KFYI’s Mike Broomhead.

Later in the same conversation, she stumbled when describing what role the state would play under the president’s new program. “We will issue an employment authorization card to these people,” Brewer said, then paused as if listening to somebody in the background. “The feds will, yeah, the feds will.”

After the order was issued, Alessandra Soler, the Arizona director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the whole thing made it look as if Brewer didn’t really understand the law in the first place.

“This is yet another reason why Arizona has no business trying to regulate immigration matters,” Soler said in a written statement.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/brewer_immigration_obama.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

 

[Yaboosh]

Yeah, under the table!!!

Jesus Christ. What's next, are they going to buy the damn table too??!?!?!

 

[el retorno]

No, that's bad planning on the person who feels the only thing they can do is drive a vehicle.

do you think there are jobs that don't have bus stops within a mile of them?

 

[John Rabbit]

Do they buy anything?

you misread, i am totally aware illegal immigrants do in fact pay taxes.

however, sales tax =/= income tax. in the hypothetical situation of an illegal immigrant being paid in cash and still contributing tax in the form of sales tax and property tax, they are paying a smaller portion of tax then a legal citizen would. they pay less tax then everyone else, so why should the state government go out of it's way to reward this behavior?

 

[Tenck]

Jesus Christ. What's next, are they going to buy the damn table too??!?!?!

Well then they'd have to buy a table to buy a table under that table.

 

[Emwitus]

No, that's bad planning on the person who feels the only thing they can do is drive a vehicle.

Most jobs require you to show a valid driver's license....And what is the point of denying a driver's license to an immigrant who has the only document required(As an non-immigrant)to obtain one under the current law?

 

[yellow submarine]

Those with work permits are legally required to pay taxes so they are just as entitled to benefits as anyone else who pays taxes as well as the ability to vote. No taxation without representation will quickly make its way up the channel to the SCOTUS. Since only the federal government can set immigration policy, this action of defiance is actually an illegal one which will result in the state being sued for big money.

While I don't really agree with what Obama did here and don't go for the "please won't someone please think of the children" argument, I don't believe the states have strong grounds to ignore the fed in this matter no matter how much they may feel it sucks.

Hardy har har. I'm a legal immigrant (H1B, no GC yet due to a long line) who has been paying federal taxes for the last 10 years. What makes you think they care about illegals? (other than this measure being a quite obvious Hispanic votebank grab before the elections)

 

[Veezy]

You know what pisses me off about this?

These people are going to drive, it's mostly inevitable. They gotta work.

If they get a license, they'll probably get insurance too so they can stay legal.

With no license, they won't get insurance.

So you have a bunch of undocumented people driving around doing, in many cases, menial labor, uninsured. BTW, these people are the fucking backbone of America.

Fucking Arizona.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Bad planning? Do you think that they can afford to just take a job that has them rely on public transport or won't notice their tardiness?

Again, that's planning on their part, but there are workforce services that will help people solve these issues. There are options. And this is coming from a immigrant family who moved to Arizona from Argentina. So I know first hand the situation of public transportation and work very well.

 

[Yaboosh]

Most jobs require you to show a valid driver's license....And what is the point of denying a driver's license to an immigrant who has the only document required to obtain one under the current law?

Eh, most jobs require you to show valid ID. Which these people in Arizona will have.

 

[Devolution]

Again, that's planning on their part, but there are workforce services that will help people solve these issues. There are options. And this is coming from a immigrant family who moved to Arizona from Argentina.

Okay what are these options other than non-reliable public transportation?

Eh, most jobs require you to show valid ID. Which these people in Arizona will have.

The Netflix customer service center out of Portland pretty much requires reliable transportation to work because it's off out in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Tenck]

Most jobs require you to show a valid driver's license....And what is the point of denying a driver's license to an immigrant who has the only document required to obtain one under the current law?

You need a valid form of id. I've showed my state id to my last three employers and they've been fine with it. Amazon, McDonald's, and Wendy's.

 

[dehydratedbabies]

THOSE GOD DAMN ILLEGALS - my boss

 

[Emwitus]

Again, that's planning on their part, but there are workforce services that will help people solve these issues. There are options. And this is coming from a immigrant family who moved to Arizona from Argentina. So I know first hand the situation of public transportation and work very well.

So you were forced to use public transportation?

 

[Emwitus]

You need a valid form of id. I've showed my state id to my last three employers and they've been fine with it. Amazon, McDonald's, and Wendy's.

So we should give them a valid ID and not a driver's license? got it. Don't want any immigrants driving those cars i guess.

 

[googleplex]

We have buses and light rails here in Phoenix.

Bullshit AZ bus system is complete shit!

 

[Devolution]

Again, that's planning on their part, but there are workforce services that will help people solve these issues. There are options. And this is coming from a immigrant family who moved to Arizona from Argentina. So I know first hand the situation of public transportation and work very well.

Do the buses show only every hour? Because that's how it works in most places outside any metro and that's not "very well" by any stretch. And if anything happens to those buses that person has to wait another hour.

 

[vincent vega]

you misread, i am totally aware illegal immigrants do in fact pay taxes.

however, sales tax =/= income tax. in the hypothetical situation of an illegal immigrant being paid in cash and still contributing tax in the form of sales tax and property tax, they are paying a smaller portion of tax then a legal citizen would. they pay less tax then everyone else, so why should the state government go out of it's way to reward this behavior?

Its a tough situation. If I was forced to sneak into another country to support my future family, I would hope that there would be transportation in place, buy obviously it shouldn't be expected. And it's hard to just let everyone in who is willing to work/pay taxes

 

[Yaboosh]

The Netflix customer service center out of Portland pretty much requires reliable transportation to work because it's off out in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not saying that certain jobs effectively require you to have a car or a ride to work, I am just saying it is wrong to say that most jobs require you to have a driver's license to work there.

There are plenty of jobs that effectively require you to drive or have a ride, and that makes this kind of thing stupid, discriminatory and counter-productive. But don't say that jobs require a drivers license for employment.

 

[Tenck]

So we should give them a valid ID and not a driver's license? got it. Don't want any immigrants driving those cars i guess.

I like how aggressive you are. I'm merely stating that you were wrong. You need a valid form of id. It's not required to show your drivers license.

How you came up with your ridiculous post is beyond me. Gonna have to check that broom that's up your ass.

 

[eastmen]

This still works.

We need to saw off the west coast. Arizonia is fine .


Look alot of people feel strongly about this , I'm all for legal immigration but if you've benfited from a crime you should be forced to pay .

There are millions of people who would love to cross the border into this country but can't because there is a huge distance and vast oceans to cross. So they try and get in legaly. Those are the ones who should benfit from immegration reform. Not those who break the law no matter the age.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Unless your job description requires you to drive, you don't need a driver's license. There is a thing called public transportation.

And of course the same people who would deny these people a driver's license are the same people that cut funding and make American public transportation as shitty as it is. There is a reason it is only good in liberal cities.

 

[Circle Jerk]

then it is likely you are a skilled worker and able to make enough money to purchase transportation for yourself. i am unsure how it is arizona's fault their public transportation infrastructure is inadequate for an untold/undocumented number of people attempting to use it.

Perhaps because it means their public transportation is also inadequate for legal citizens? And how is being able to afford a car going to help when you don't have a license?

 

[Devolution]

I'm not saying that certain jobs effectively require you to have a car or a ride to work, I am just saying it is wrong to say that most jobs require you to have a driver's license to work there.

There are plenty of jobs that effectively require you to drive or have a ride, and that makes this kind of thing stupid, discriminatory and counter-productive. But don't say that jobs require a drivers license for employment.

Depending on your job you're pretty much in need of a car and you have way more options for employment with a car.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Okay what are these options other than non-reliable public transportation?

Of course, you're thinking worse case scenario of those living out in holbrook or winslow or something. There are workforce vans that pick people up on a route. Most though would just hitch rides with neighbors, friends and co-workers who are here legally and can drive.

But first off, they shouldn't be living in a place that isn't going to be easy to get to work. You can't be dumb and expect to find work any where you choose to settle.

 

[Emwitus]

I like how aggressive you are. I'm merely stating that you were wrong. You need a valid form of id. It's not required to show your drivers license.

How you came up with your ridiculous post is beyond me. Gonna have to check that broom that's up your ass.

Aggressive? My point is they need to show a valid ID, which is what a driver's license is. The only difference is it allows you to drive. Why you think that is a valid counter argument to why it's absurd they are being denied the card is beyond me. But keep on fighting the good fight.

 

[Phoenix]

Could you imagine being brought to the USA when you were 2 years old, growing up here your whole life, and then facing deportation to a country that you have absolutely no memory of and may not even speak the language?

Well if you can't imagine that situation or you just don't give a fuck about the person in such a situation, you just may be Jan Brewer.

The precedent you'd be setting, however, is that if you perform an illegal action long enough as long as you aren't caught eventually you should be given amnesty. The issue is that the system as it is now doesn't fix the problem. It actually encourages a behavior that we know is a problem and becomes a legal conduit for illegal immigration. That's the problem that I have with the system. Do I want to deport everyone, no - but if you're going to solve the immigration problem at all at some point you need to draw the line at which point enforcement IS something you do. Otherwise you have some nonsense laws about immigration that don't mean anything.

You have to ask yourself "under what circumstances do I say that one person should be deported and another not"? While you make the argument for the 2 year old, next the picture will be of the 8 year old clinging to the fence while his/her parents are deported. Where do you have some semblance of immigration policy that isn't just an open door policy to enter the country? Why make it less preferable for going through the full immigration process that we have established that ends in citizenship - because we won't let everyone in? I certainly empathize with the situation, but in this particular instance this is an area where I find that the policy proposed by Democrats is incomplete at best and loony and dangerously irresponsible at worse.

 

[Devolution]

Of course, you're thinking worse case scenario of those living out in holbrook or winslow or something. There are workforce vans that pick people up on a route. Most though would just hitch rides with neighbors, friends and co-workers who are here legally and can drive.

But first off, they shouldn't be living in a place that isn't going to be easy to get to work. You can't be dumb and expect to find work any where you choose to settle.

I think you're vastly overestimating their options.

 

[Circle Jerk]

Of course, you're thinking worse case scenario of those living out in holbrook or winslow or something. There are workforce vans that pick people up on a route. Most though would just hitch rides with neighbors, friends and co-workers who are here legally and can drive.

But first off, they shouldn't be living in a place that isn't going to be easy to get to work. You can't be dumb and expect to find work any where you choose to settle.

It's almost like they're... buying housing where they can...

 

[Psychological Intellect]

Fuck Arizona and fuck Jan Brewer

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

I think you're vastly overestimating their options.

I think I'm not because that's how most of the immigrants in the communities I lived in throughout Arizona would do it. Again, keep thinking worst case scenarios.

It's almost like they're... buying housing where they can...

Cause it's always smart to buy a house only to be kicked out of it a month later because they choose to live in a place where they can't get to work and can't pay for the house.

 

[maxxpower]

Lol Arizona really hates illegals.

 

[RiccochetJ]

I love how Arizona is trying to protect themselves from the evil Mexicans while Canadians are buying up the land from underneath them for vacation homes.

 

[Tenck]

Aggressive? My point is they need to show a valid ID, which is what a driver's license is. The only difference is it allows you to drive. Why you think that is a valid counter argument to why it's absurd they are being denied the card is beyond me. But keep on fighting the good fight.

No, you said it's required to show a drivers license. You never specified any type of valid id other than drivers license.


I'm just merely telling you that any form of id can get you a job. I've already said my who my last three employers were. I've never had to pull out my drivers license during an interview.

Why you think that is a valid counter argument to why it's absurd they are being denied the card is beyond me.

You're the only one arguing about this. I never even brought up denying them a drivers license. Just shove more words into my mouth. It's getting you places.

So again, let me reiterate this for you.

Any form of id can get you a job. I'm not arguing that illegal immigrants should be denied anything. That you came up with on your own.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I have a hard time feeling non-apathetic about an illegal immigrant not being able to find a job in this country because he or she may not be able to get a driver's license.

Say what you will about immigration policy and whether some form of amnesty might be appropriate, I do not have a strong opinion on the matter, except to say I can sympathize with those who cannot find safety and opportunity in their own country, and can also certainly sympathize with children who had no say in the matter. But as it stands, if the individual is not legally present, then I do not consider it an appalling position to deny that person benefits granted to citizens and other documented guests. I find it particularly absurd that some on one side of the issue are labeling people on the other as "racist." Do laws mean nothing?

This goes to both sides. Do something and settle the issue.