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Arrow S5 |OT| You thought you were out, but Manu Bennett pulls you back in.

R

Raylan Targaryen

Member
Back-In-Black said:
No it didn't. It cleanly presented both sides and while at times seemed to favor increased gun regulation, backed off to show the other side. Dinah was pro-gun. Councilwoman was pro-gun and the show did not present her as evil, just someone standing for what she believed in. And, WildDog was pro-gun. Nobody changes their opinions by the end of the episode. Even WildDog's backstory suggests that if he had his gun on him like he wanted then his wife wouldn't have died, and that without the gun in his home he and his daughter might be dead.

At the end, Oliver comes up with a compromise. What is this magic compromise that compliments both sides? Ssshhh, you don't need to know, all you need to know is that both sides are happy with it. The episode was as clear of a "both sides" type of deal as it could be. FFS the episode even insinuates that the reason the way the world is the way it is, is because both sides don't talk anymore. Not that, you know, one side is literally racist, Nazis.
Click to expand...

People don't talk to each other anymore because people are too fragile to have their thoughts and beliefs challenged. This was an issue way before nazis took over the country.
 
M

MikeBreezy92

Member
Back-In-Black said:
No it didn't. It cleanly presented both sides and while at times seemed to favor increased gun regulation, backed off to show the other side. Dinah was pro-gun. Councilwoman was pro-gun and the show did not present her as evil, just someone standing for what she believed in.
Click to expand...

Dianh barely had an opinion in the episode and was mainly just the info dump about guns in general. The Councilwoman was presented as bureaucratic and someone that Oliver is gonna have to deal with later it seems.

And, WildDog was pro-gun. Nobody changes their opinions by the end of the episode. Even WildDog's backstory suggests that if he had his gun on him like he wanted then his wife wouldn't have died, and that without the gun in his home he and his daughter might be dead.
Click to expand...

Wild Dog's flashback was ambiguous. We just see what happens that gives him his point a view. At the end of the day, his wife and daughter were taken away from him because of guns. He saved his daughter's life, but because he wasn't supposed to have one in the first place, he doesn't have his daughter anymore either.


At the end, Oliver comes up with a compromise. What is this magic compromise that compliments both sides? Ssshhh, you don't need to know, all you need to know is that both sides are happy with it. The episode was as clear of a "both sides" type of deal as it could be. FFS the episode even insinuates that the reason the way the world is the way it is, is because both sides don't talk anymore. Not that, you know, one side is literally racist, Nazis.
Click to expand...

Now this part of your post irked me a bit. I feel like you're transplanting on issues when it concerns with racism and such to gun laws which aren't 1:1. I agree with you that the both sides needing to talk is eye roll worthy(because we talk all the fucking time smh) and the only thing I didn't like about the episode, but Gun Laws in America is a much more middling subject than the air of racism and fascism that we're dealing with right now. Rene himself by the end of the episode turned into Pro-Gun/Pro-Reg by the end of the episode in order to even come up with a compromise that the councilwoman would be willing to work with.

Some subjects shouldn't be tolerated and shouldn't have a both side slant to them, but gun laws as it pertains to america and its culture and society warrant that at the very least because of how complicated and entrenched the issue is. Fascism and Racism should be so black and white that it shouldn't have to be a conversation about it. Don't conflate the two.
 
B

Back-In-Black

Banned
MikeBreezy92 said:
Dianh barely had an opinion in the episode and was mainly just the info dump about guns in general. The Councilwoman was presented as bureaucratic and someone that Oliver is gonna have to deal with later it seems.

Wild Dog's flashback was ambiguous. We just see what happens that gives him his point a view. At the end of the day, his wife and daughter were taken away from him because of guns. He saved his daughter's life, but because he wasn't supposed to have one in the first place, he doesn't have his daughter anymore either.

Now this part of your post irked me a bit. I feel like you're transplanting on issues when it concerns with racism and such to gun laws which aren't 1:1. I agree with you that the both sides needing to talk is eye roll worthy(because we talk all the fucking time smh) and the only thing I didn't like about the episode, but Gun Laws in America is a much more middling subject than the air of racism and fascism that we're dealing with right now. Rene himself by the end of the episode turned into Pro-Gun/Pro-Reg by the end of the episode in order to even come up with a compromise that the councilwoman would be willing to work with.

Some subjects shouldn't be tolerated and shouldn't have a both side slant to them, but gun laws as it pertains to america and its culture and society warrant that at the very least because of how complicated and entrenched the issue is. Fascism and Racism should be so black and white that it shouldn't have to be a conversation about it. Don't conflate the two.
Click to expand...

The Councilwoman acting bureaucratic is exactly what she's supposed to be doing, she's a bureaucrat and so is Oliver if his thick head would accept the fact that he's a politician now. That said, while I agree that gun regulation isn't the same as something like racism in America there are certain aspects where there is clearly a right or wrong side. The episode wasn't interested in taking ANY side it just wallowed in letting each side have their argument and then declaring peace. It's not that these characters that were pro-gun were just opposed to a registry it's that they were opposed to pretty much ANY type of gun regulation.

We used to have a Federal Assault Weapons ban before Bush did away with it, and even WildDog wouldn't agree that the ban was right or effective. At the end, we're simply told the councilwoman accepts this compromise but are told nothing about what it is. Take a stand and tell us what some reasonable regulation would look like, increased background checks? Mandatory safety courses? Anything?

If the Arrow writers were writing Star Trek every episode would end with the Captain going, "I agree with both sides, now I propose magic compromise," which everyone is immediately happy with. Fuck, even Captain Kirk would likely take a hard stance on gun regulation.
 
J

Joni

Member
The councilwoman wasn't bureaucratic. She was Republican.
And they didn't compromise with her. He basically strongarmed her into accepting a registry.
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Season 1 Oliver would have dressed up as the Green Arrow and threatened the councilwoman to change her vote. This show is a rollercoaster ride, I swear.
 
J

Jorok Goldblade

Member
Shot of Dinah in costume in the new trailer -

Basically her street clothes, but with a mask, gloves and bo staff.

https://youtu.be/r7VzwwSCpVk?t=15s


Canary_zpswybnqsnk.jpg
 
P

Platy

Member
Didn't expected such a serious episode ... and they handled it pretty well !

So ... any awesome screens of people raging about this episode on social media ? xD
 
S

Septimus Prime

Member
I personally only think the "magic compromise" is the problem. With a nuanced issue like what was shown, I think it's perfectly reasonable to present both sides of the argument (even though I, personally, think one side is wrong), but to just wrap it up tidily without even hinting about what that compromise was is worse than just leaving things without resolution. It implies that the issue is easy/possible to resolve in such a manner, when clearly it is far from it in real life.

I get that it's a fantasy world anyway, but that actually introduces another problem, where everyone is acting completely out of character for just this one episode. We've had plenty of people get gunned down throughout the seasons, but just this particular time, everyone gets all bent out of shape? What? And Thea, especially. Given what she's already faced down in the last few years, now she's completely shook when guns go off in her general vicinity?
 
P

Platy

Member
What I absolutly didn't understood was Wild Dog's "if I had my gun my wife would be alive" thing.

Dude you killed the dude before he killed her. WITH YOUR GUN
 
M

MartyStu

Member
Back-In-Black said:
The Councilwoman acting bureaucratic is exactly what she's supposed to be doing, she's a bureaucrat and so is Oliver if his thick head would accept the fact that he's a politician now. That said, while I agree that gun regulation isn't the same as something like racism in America there are certain aspects where there is clearly a right or wrong side. The episode wasn't interested in taking ANY side it just wallowed in letting each side have their argument and then declaring peace. It's not that these characters that were pro-gun were just opposed to a registry it's that they were opposed to pretty much ANY type of gun regulation.

We used to have a Federal Assault Weapons ban before Bush did away with it, and even WildDog wouldn't agree that the ban was right or effective. At the end, we're simply told the councilwoman accepts this compromise but are told nothing about what it is. Take a stand and tell us what some reasonable regulation would look like, increased background checks? Mandatory safety courses? Anything?

If the Arrow writers were writing Star Trek every episode would end with the Captain going, "I agree with both sides, now I propose magic compromise," which everyone is immediately happy with. Fuck, even Captain Kirk would likely take a hard stance on gun regulation.
Click to expand...

The best TV approach is actually to take a stance that explicitly pisses off every side.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
just caught up with this Very Special Episode of Arrow

I thought the commentary was a little heavy-handed in places, but mostly they did a good job. Rene is definitely the best of the recruits this season.

Here's a question. Artemis has been gone for weeks. Has anybody missed her?
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
Htown said:
Here's a question. Artemis has been gone for weeks. Has anybody missed her?
Click to expand...

I'm definitely down to see her again. There's finally some interesting story to tell. She was the weakest of the recruits and now we know why, it'll be nice to see Oliver give her a dressing down. And then a stern talking to.
 
W

WedgeX

Banned
Just caught up.

So we're the West Wing now. Definitely appreciated their foray into politics.

Curtis's stance of us needing to speak about politics more, not less, I feel is dead on for American society and I'm pretty sure I've said as much on GAF. I hope that this signals a shift for the series.

Though Oliver is a liberal mayor, and Green Arrow historically a liberal super hero, a completely liberal solution to guns isn't something that even a fictional mayor of a city is going to win. Even though it's left undescribed, in a real world where Sandy Hook failed to change anything, any move towards control on Oliver's part counts as a huge win that we cannot achieve in the real world.
 
B

Back-In-Black

Banned
WedgeX said:
Just caught up.

So we're the West Wing now. Definitely appreciated their foray into politics.

Curtis's stance of us needing to speak about politics more, not less, I feel is dead on for American society and I'm pretty sure I've said as much on GAF.

Though Oliver is a liberal mayor, and Green Arrow historically a liberal super hero, a completely liberal solution to guns isn't something that even a fictional mayor of a city is going to win. Even though it's left undescribed, in a real world where Sandy Hook failed to change anything, any move towards control on Oliver's part counts as a huge win that we cannot achieve in the real world.
Click to expand...

Slow your roll, bud.
 
S

Skux

Member
Great episode. Possibly the most meaningful episode that Arrow has ever done. I liked that the different perspectives were fleshed out by experiences - mainly Wild Dog's. People don't just suddenly take a stance on political issues. They are often directly linked to personal experiences, values, and upbringing. And this episode did a great job in showing there are people behind all the loud voices on the news, who have their own reasons for what they believe.

- Mayor Queen, stepping up

- Thea is back and as sassy as ever

- Dinah and Diggle have way too damn much chemistry

- Wild Dog: Origins
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
GulAtiCa said:
At least he attempts to hide his face. Supergirl/man doesn't even try. lol
Click to expand...

Yeah and it's wild that Cat apparently doesn't know Supergirl isn't Kara even though literally all of Kara's friends and her sister are Supergirl's allies, while Maggie figured it out pretty quickly and pointed out the glasses don't work.

StaticJam said:
To be fair, Oliver has been arrested twice under the pretense of being the Green Arrow.
Click to expand...

Has he? He's been arrested twice for being the Hood/Arrow. The Green Arrow is a uh... totally... different........ person......... apparently
 
M

Magwik

Banned
ZeroX03 said:
Has he? He's been arrested twice for being the Hood/Arrow. The Green Arrow is a uh... totally... different........ person......... apparently
Click to expand...
Oh right right I forgot about that.
caliph95 said:
Yeah Green Arrow is green and The Hood wears a hood totally different

Why do people buy that gain
Click to expand...
Probably figure that someone trying to one up a vigilante and do better makes a lot more sense than what is going on in Central City.
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
I swear these shows have got to be hurtling toward public identity at some point. There's all sorts of silly hand waves to justify all the secrets. Supergirl makes no sense. Wally has conversations close up without blurring his face on Flash. And so far Oliver has been The Hood, The Arrow, Al Sah-him, Green Arrow and a whole bunch of nicknames based on those.

Of course if he goes public in Arrow they'd have to hand wave all that killing he did, but it seems like a fair price to pay.
 
I

Ithil

Member
ZeroX03 said:
I'm definitely down to see her again. There's finally some interesting story to tell. She was the weakest of the recruits and now we know why, it'll be nice to see Oliver give her a dressing down. And then a stern talking to.
Click to expand...

I misread that as dressing gown and was confused.
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
via TVLine

Does Thea have anything coming up on Arrow?
Finally returned from that dreaded conference (and with her sharp tongue wonderfully on display), Thea is “headed in a direction that’s very similar to where her mother was before she was killed in Season 2. We’re excited about it,” says co-showrunner Wendy Mericle. “She’s been dealing with all of these issues the same way Oliver has — with her bloodlust and with other elements of her past — and this season’s going to find her in a similar place but for very different reasons..” EP Marc Guggenheim promises “some really terrific Oliver/Thea scenes in next week’s episode and beyond,” including what Mericle deemed “one of my favorites on the show.”
Click to expand...
Interesting comparison choice, I don't think they would've picked it if Thea was going to share the same fate.
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
ZeroX03 said:
via TVLine


Interesting comparison choice, I don't think they would've picked it if Thea was going to share the same fate.
Click to expand...

I think Thea is being written off the show. Not killed but written off. They reduced her role as hero a this season and then she took that trip off somewhere randomly. I could see them just saying that she wants to make her own way in the world outside of Oliver's shadow. Which makes sense. She's only 21 or 22, right? Why shouldn't she want to go college or something.

Killing her would be extremely cruel and unnecessary. She's the only family Oliver has.
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
Grizzlyjin said:
I think Thea is being written off the show. Not killed but written off. They reduced her role as hero a this season and then she took that trip off somewhere randomly. I could see them just saying that she wants to make her own way in the world outside of Oliver's shadow. Which makes sense. She's only 21 or 22, right? Why shouldn't she want to go college or something.

Killing her would be extremely cruel and unnecessary. She's the only family Oliver has.
Click to expand...

She went on a trip because Willa Holland is only contracted for 14 out of 22 episodes this year. They're definitely reducing her role, but with a show this age whether it's for story or money reasons it's hard to say.
 
M

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
I wouldn't be surprised if Willa gets one of those Arrowverse deals next year, with an initial string of episodes then one or two appearances later in the season.

Or send her over to Legends where she has to fight her Dad through time.
 
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