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ARROW Season 2 |OT| Back in a Flash

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Wiktor

Member
How are those excuses exactly? The writers literally make up the narrative. This is a show that brought Malcom Merlyn from the dead and made him Thea's father.. well because. They made Sara Black Canary...because. They had her trained by the League...because. Acting as if they couldn't kill her off is really selectively choosing what's mandatory for the writers.
I'm not saying they can't do that. I'm saying it will make for a worse story

I disagree that the writers have screwed themselves in terms of a Laurel BC. Sara's physique is athletic. Sure. That's not actually a requirement for BC. Laurel's character has Martial Arts training as well and the show can ease her into BC through training with Ollie.. just the same as they're doing with Roy. Cassidy doesn't need to come close to Caity's moves either. Shows use stuntmen and women all the time. They'd lose possible Salmon ladder shots but really, not a huge loss.
So..she doesn't look the part, can't have training scenes and only can do stuff with stuntmen...tell me exacly how is that not a huge downrage?

Yes, shows use stuntmen to turn out of shape characters into athlethic geniuses, but thats what lessers shows do. One of Arrow's strenghts is that it casts people who are believable in superhero roles. Not supermodel thin girls suddenly kicking ass solely because "lol..tv"
 

Tabby

Member
I feel like there's way too much drama, and way too much has happened between Ollie and Laurel for Laurel to be Black Canary.
Not to mention it could cause a huge backlash after having Caity Lotz impressing the fans as the Canary.
It's not like Katie Cassidy has training either, it's be much easier to just keep Caity than find another stunt actor for Katie.
 

Finalow

Member
Diggle is so useless that writers don't even care enough to kill him off.

this much drama kind of sucks, hope it ends, like, now. fuck yes at that ending, finally things will be interesting.
 

Jonogunn

Member
Losing Sara would be the shows biggest mistake.

Her physique isn't the only thing that makes her convincing as a superhero. Her attitude and acting helps as well. Remeber the talk she had with Sin where she said "I just had a moment with my sister" and was sorta tearing up? You can tell she was sucking it up and not bawling her eyes out or anything. It's a subtle way to show that she's tough.


she is the most believable female, hero on tv.

Unlike huntress oh god
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
Diggle is so useless that writers don't even care enough to kill him off.

this much drama kind of sucks, hope it ends, like, now. fuck yes at that ending, finally things will be interesting.

He's the black driver. He's not useless, how else will Ollie get around town?
 

wildfire

Banned
I kinda fixed that for you.
Ollie's truth bomb was truth. Laurel didn't have it nearly as hard as either Ollie or Sarah and she will likely never know what they really had to go through.


Her constant whining and pining, her turn to drugs and alcohol, her blaming everyone else for all of her current problems of the past 1.5 years is all bullshit and she needs to get a grip on her life.

I hate the Laurel character but come on! She had long time friend turned lover who she was prepared to try the moving in stage with.

She finds out that both her long time friend/lover and sister died and were sleeping with each other. Tragedy and betrayal right there.

Her parents inability to cope with the death of her sister caused them to break up hard so the only person she could turn to was another long time friend who became a temporary fling.

Actual lover returns 5 years later and at this point we get to see Laurel's terrible character flaws (or terrible writing and direction if we can get technical here) which is why I've been hating on her.

At the same time she has been kidnapped a few times and has had her life threatened atleast 4 times (lol shotgun jam, incident that convinced her to get shotgun in the first place, daddy's arch nemesis, fake kidnapping by Blood)

She wasn't constantly under threat like they were on the island but let's not pretend these incidents didn't happen.

Ofcourse in between all those life threatening experiences in her idiocy she caused her other long time friend/fling to die. Dumb and infuriating but it is still emotionally traumatizing.

A lot of what Laurel was going though makes sense and I'm glad that she has come to terms with all of it and is willing to let it go now. She had a long time to get over a lot of this stuff, but those wounds were suddenly just ripped back open and laid out right in front of her as if to mock her, but those are her issues, and only her issues. No one was wishing any harm upon her by doing what makes them happy. So I am very glad that she can move forward now, because her circling the drain with all that misplaced hate and anger was getting very tiresome.

They weren't just her issues. She was being betrayed, dicked around with and indirectly put into trouble because of the guy giving her truth bombs. She needed the verbal smackdown but not from Ollie who has been enabling or contributing to her spiral. The only thing I give him credit for is being stoic in the face of his mom being faced with the death penalty. If we look back at Ollie's interactions with Laurel he's been pretty flakey and immature a lot of the time even after he got friends/workmates to help him cope with his experiences while being a vigilante.

Losing Sara would be the shows biggest mistake.

Her physique isn't the only thing that makes her convincing as a superhero. Her attitude and acting helps as well. Remeber the talk she had with Sin where she said "I just had a moment with my sister" and was sorta tearing up? You can tell she was sucking it up and not bawling her eyes out or anything. It's a subtle way to show that she's tough.


she is the most believable female, hero on tv.

Unlike huntress oh god

Still got nothing on Xena but your point stands about contemporary female action stars in the last 15 years. She would be great on the Expendables femme edition.

BTW I can't be the only one who wants to see Digglicity happen right?

What happened in Russia would stick out in mind way too much. Lyla would have to die first before I could accept this happening.
 

Dawg

Member

"It makes the season finale we did last year look like a student film."

arrow-keep-your-enemies-closer-oliver-winks-felicity-cw.gif
 
I'm not saying they can't do that. I'm saying it will make for a worse story

Yeah that's biased opinion. Objectively, there's nothing about losing Sara that would make for a worse story.

So..she doesn't look the part, can't have training scenes and only can do stuff with stuntmen...tell me exacly how is that not a huge downrage?

Female superhero's are not all athletic builds. There's been plenty of actresses cast in Superhero roles who did not have athletic builds before, during, or after the role and nobody complained about it. And the training scenes add absolutely nothing to the story. They're pure eye candy shots and they can easily choose Non-Salmon ladder "training" shots for the eye candy effect for a Katie Cassidy BC. It's not that serious.

Yes, shows use stuntmen to turn out of shape characters into athlethic geniuses, but thats what lessers shows do. One of Arrow's strenghts is that it casts people who are believable in superhero roles. Not supermodel thin girls suddenly kicking ass solely because "lol..tv"

No.. shows use stuntmen for stunts and fight choreography. Arrow has already used a lot of stuntmen. As I said earlier, looking the part for the role really has nothing to do with it. Huntress wasn't super atheltic and neither is the actress that plays China White. It's simply not necessary for the roles. You should also keep in mind that unlike Caity Lotz, Stephen Amell wasn't a super athletic martial artist when he got the role either. They trained him and they could easily do the same for Katie. Especially between seasons.

Losing Sara would be the shows biggest mistake.

Her physique isn't the only thing that makes her convincing as a superhero. Her attitude and acting helps as well. Remeber the talk she had with Sin where she said "I just had a moment with my sister" and was sorta tearing up? You can tell she was sucking it up and not bawling her eyes out or anything. It's a subtle way to show that she's tough.

she is the most believable female, hero on tv.

Unlike huntress oh god

The constant pursed lips she's used since appearing make me disagree with you.

I feel like there's way too much drama, and way too much has happened between Ollie and Laurel for Laurel to be Black Canary.
Not to mention it could cause a huge backlash after having Caity Lotz impressing the fans as the Canary.

Easier =/= good for the story. And while there's plenty of Sara fans, it's not as if it's Black Canary: The Series. People will get over it.
 

Wiktor

Member
Yeah that's biased opinion. Objectively, there's nothing about losing Sara that would make for a worse story.
.

You just hate the character. She's obviously very liked by audience, is great for the part and has very cool story hooks. Loosing all that is objectively bad.

Female superhero's are not all athletic builds. There's been plenty of actresses cast in Superhero roles who did not have athletic builds before, during, or after the role and nobody complained about it.
Maybe that's why all live action female superheroes sucked before? Or heck, why most women suck in action roles? Because directors are afraid of casting a women in that roles that aren't thin as sticks.



And the training scenes add absolutely nothing to the story. They're pure eye candy shots and they can easily choose Non-Salmon ladder "training" shots for the eye candy effect for a Katie Cassidy BC. It's not that serious.
It's extremely serious. It grounds those characters immensely and helps with suspension of disbelief. After seeing Ammell perform the salmon ladder I could completely believe he's able to do all the other crazy stuff his character does on screen.



No.. shows use stuntmen for stunts and fight choreography. Arrow has already used a lot of stuntmen..
It's also used real actors often and the results are always a lot better than when they use stuntmen.

Huntress wasn't super atheltic .
That's your argument for Laurel as BC? That she will suck in fight scenes as much as Huntress does? :)



Easier =/= good for the story. And while there's plenty of Sara fans, it's not as if it's Black Canary: The Series. People will get over it.
You know what it's also not? Laurel Lance: The series.You act like Laurel is some insanely integral part of the show and that absolutely every effort needs to be made to salvage her. It's not. She's useless in the show and the show would benefit from dropping that character. All the effort and screen time that would be required to turn Laurel around would be spent a lot better on actually interesting and likable characters .

Ultimatelly this is what all of this boils down to. This isn't a drama about girl struggling to live her life in Starling City. This is a show about Green Arrow kicking ass with his side kicks. We already have BC that works like a charm and fit the whole structure of the show so well she gave us some of the best episodes of the series. There's really no real advantage of throwing all of that away and then wasting valuable time just so we can have her be replaced by vastly inferior version of BC.
 

Joni

Member
No.. shows use stuntmen for stunts and fight choreography. Arrow has already used a lot of stuntmen. As I said earlier, looking the part for the role really has nothing to do with it. Huntress wasn't super atheltic and neither is the actress that plays China White. It's simply not necessary for the roles. You should also keep in mind that unlike Caity Lotz, Stephen Amell wasn't a super athletic martial artist when he got the role either. They trained him and they could easily do the same for Katie. Especially between seasons.
.

The show also doesn't have the budget or the time to spend on training someone to get as good as Caity Lotz is already. There is a reason why they have so many Spartacus people, and a lot less untrained actors getting fighting roles.
 
You just hate the character. She's obviously very liked by audience, is great for the part and has very cool story hooks. Loosing all that is objectively bad.

I actually don't hate the character. I can see how it may come across that way but you have to consider the context of the thread where the average opinion being expressed is "OMG SARA DA BES! KILL OFF LAUREL NAO!" I exaggerate but let's be real, the Arrow thread is full of embellishment. It's all for fun and all that but posts like mine comes across as polar opposite when bookended with those kinds of embellished posts. Her story hooks really aren't that cool or creative. They literally resurrected her to put her on the island and as of yet there's zero information on how she became to be connected to The League. They could connect back to The League or any other group/syndicate/villain with any character like that.

Maybe that's why all live action female superheroes sucked before? Or heck, why most women suck in action roles? Because directors are afraid of casting a women in that roles that aren't thin as sticks.

Well that's an opinion. There have been perfectly fine portrayals of female heroes, superheroes, spies, etc... It usually comes down moreso to the production, not the physique of the actresses. Xena and Gabrielle were awesome heroes in their series and neither of them were super lean with low body fat percentage to show off abs. None of the Whedon heroines were in super shape either.

It's extremely serious. It grounds those characters immensely and helps with suspension of disbelief. After seeing Ammell perform the salmon ladder I could completely believe he's able to do all the other crazy stuff his character does on screen.

Suspension of disbelief? In Arrow? If you can't see how awful that argument is, I really don't know what to tell you.


It's also used real actors often and the results are always a lot better than when they use stuntmen.

Yeah, outside of Roy's parkour, I'm positive that you can't point out what scenes were stuntmen and what scenes were actors. The Direction and Editing of Arrow is what makes those scenes come across as good as they do.

That's your argument for Laurel as BC? That she will suck in fight scenes as much as Huntress does? :)

It's certainly a better argument than selective quoting and ignoring that Stephen Amell was trained for his part and no one has complained about his performance and Katie could be trained just as easily.

You know what it's also not? Laurel Lance: The series.You act like Laurel is some insanely integral part of the show and that absolutely every effort needs to be made to salvage her. It's not. She's useless in the show and the show would benefit from dropping that character. All the effort and screen time that would be required to turn Laurel around would be spent a lot better on actually interesting and likable characters .

Laurel kind of IS integral to the canon of Green Arrow. It would be like having a Spiderman show with no Mary Jane. Superman with no Lois Lane. X-men with no Jean Grey. Sara is the extraneous character that was added to the show to circumvent the comic's use of Laurel's mother as the first BC. And it seriously sounds like you're championing a fan service show when you talk about only focusing on "interesting and likable characters." That would actually hurt the show. There has to be characters that the audience is rooting against and having those only be villains is pretty bland.

Ultimatelly this is what all of this boils down to. This isn't a drama about girl struggling to live her life in Starling City. This is a show about Green Arrow kicking ass with his side kicks. We already have BC that works like a charm and fit the whole structure of the show so well she gave us some of the best episodes of the series. There's really no real advantage of throwing all of that away and then wasting valuable time just so we can have her be replaced by vastly inferior version of BC.

Killing Sara wouldn't be throwing anything away. It goes towards the continued evolution of Ollie as Green Arrow. It's a common superhero trope that the Hero has to constantly go through strife and loss. Has to continually be tested and tortured. If they're never in danger of losing someone or dying themselves then there's no stakes or growth. The show becomes bland and one note and boring.

Aside from Ollie's growth it would create a BC that has actually suffered loss. Sara's been through some tough stuff but she hasn't actually lost anything. In fact, she's gained. The only one in the whole show who has actually (except for Felicity but there's hints that she has some tragedy in her past as well). That doesn't strike you as odd at all?

The show also doesn't have the budget or the time to spend on training someone to get as good as Caity Lotz is already. There is a reason why they have so many Spartacus people, and a lot less untrained actors getting fighting roles.

I can't speak to budget but they could easily put her through some basic training in the off season. Amell isn't exactly a Black Belt. They just need her to look proficient at a few basics and then teach her the choreography before the filming of each episode, the same they would do any other actor or stunt person. They'll do what they have to do to fit the story. Making the story fit casting choices for a tv show would be a bad move.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Adrian, did you seriously just used "but you hate the character" in an argument when you are actively doing the same with Laurel? Jesus H Christ.
 
Laurel kind of IS integral to the canon of Green Arrow. It would be like having a Spiderman show with no Mary Jane. Superman with no Lois Lane. X-men with no Jean Grey. Sara is the extraneous character that was added to the show to circumvent the comic's use of Laurel's mother as the first BC. And it seriously sounds like you're championing a fan service show when you talk about only focusing on "interesting and likable characters." That would actually hurt the show. There has to be characters that the audience is rooting against and having those only be villains is pretty bland.

Stepping in here. Neither character is a direct analog Dinah Lance in the comic books. In fact, of the two, Sara is the closest to the character, as the only thing Laurel has is the same middle name. Different origins, different parents (private eye Larry Lance vs. Detective Quentin Lance, mother was never a crimefighter), different everything really. The martial arts training, Sin, the Canary Cry; those all entered with Sara. All that can be passed on, but neither Laurel or Sara is really DC Comics' Black Canary.

They're both different offshoots of that character, so either of them currently work as the canon you speak of.

You really do seem to have a deep love of the character though.
 

V_Arnold

Member
You really do seem to have a deep love of the character though.

I wonder why simply not hating on a character is considered being deeply in love with her?
Do you know what would be insanely weird for Arrow? Killing off Laurel after the way they dismantled her personality, slowly, aspect by aspect. If they want to kill her off in a way that actually affects others in the show (the tragedy of it), they had to do it at the end of S1, not now. So what else will she be used for, if not for a story rebuilding her? To be "that normal regular person beside Ollie?" Her whole role would be pointless, and Arrow is well written enough so one can see how unnecessary that would be in terms of the bigger picture.

However, Sarah fighting and dying honorably? There is no shame in it. I do not want them to kill off her to get Laurel to be the canary, (even if I joke with it at times), but HONESTLY? As soon as Slade Fucking Wilson entered Starling City, everyone capable of fighting become a real target for a "character killoff". Slade going after Sarah would be understandable (Shado connection, obviously), and it would have a MUCH bigger impact on all the characters than if Roy sacrificed himself to save Ollie. Because let us face it: one is overpowered with the Mirakuru, the other is not. We either need a real miracle at this point, or a change of heart (but this is not Naruto the Tv Show, sadly or luckily, depending...), OR someone with the serum as well. Or more heroes.

Anyway, if there is bloodshed, killing Sarah would be a result of logical, reasonable storytelling. Letting her be on cause she does the salmon ladder is what made Supernatural unwatchable: the Winchesters should have been long gone, but hey, popularity rules.
 
I've heard a lot about how The CW loves to recycle actors. (Just saw Caroline from Vampire Diaries on Supernatural s4 episode) but now they are also recycling Music, as Radioactive was playing during the opening scene of Vampire Diaries last night with Damon "Welcome to the New Age".

And there were 3 people in the room, 2 of which were having an "intimate" moment, while the third watched. Made me think of ArrowGAF.
 
Stepping in here. Neither character is a direct analog Dinah Lance in the comic books. In fact, of the two, Sara is the closest to the character, as the only thing Laurel has is the same middle name. Different origins, different parents (private eye Larry Lance vs. Detective Quentin Lance, mother was never a crimefighter), different everything really. The martial arts training, Sin, the Canary Cry; those all entered with Sara. All that can be passed on, but neither Laurel or Sara is really DC Comics' Black Canary.

They're both different offshoots of that character, so either of them currently work as the canon you speak of.

You really do seem to have a deep love of the character though.

Sin and the Canary Cry came in with Sara. Laurel has Martial Arts training as they introduced earlier in the first season. Sara's costume also more closely resembles Dinah Drake's costume in the New 52, so there's hints there that she's the first and there will be a second. Quentin being a Detective seems to call back to Post-Crisis Dinah Laurel's father being a Detective as opposed to Pre-Crisis Larry Lance.

Basically Arrow writers have used a hodgepodge mix of elements throughout BC's iterations and split them pretty randomly between the two characters but what most makes me believe that Laurel is integral was past comments by the producers that had stated that Laurel and Ollie are destined as well as saying that Laurel would become BC. Of course, that could always change, but Sara being liked by the audience doesn't necessitate that they keep her imo.

It's not that I really like Laurel but I do feel a bit like someone has to stick up for her character when it gets absolutely shit on constantly in the thread. I'm fine with pointing out the flaws and miscues of a character but it's reached pretty high levels in the thread. To the point where people actively ignore Sara's (and her actresses) flaws and dogpile Laurel and her actress. I just prefer to take a more balanced view of things and try to voice that.
 

Wiktor

Member
I've heard a lot about how The CW loves to recycle actors. (Just saw Caroline from Vampire Diaries on Supernatural s4 episode) but now they are also recycling Music, as Radioactive was playing during the opening scene of Vampire Diaries last night with Damon "Welcome to the New Age".

And there were 3 people in the room, 2 of which were having an "intimate" moment, while the third watched. Made me think of ArrowGAF.

Ammell played a werewolf on Vampire Diaries :)
 

Wiktor

Member
Laurel kind of IS integral to the canon of Green Arrow. It would be like having a Spiderman show with no Mary Jane. Superman with no Lois Lane. X-men with no Jean Grey.

Spiderman works just fine with Gwen.

Also, the argument that just because something happened in comics it needs to happen in show is useless and completely false. Arrow already went heavily against many of it's canons and nothing bad happened.

What matters if that Laurel isn't integral to canon of Arrow. The show can easily go without her and in opinion of most people it would only improve by doing so, as she's been consistently the weakest link in the show.
 

Tugatrix

Member
I've heard a lot about how The CW loves to recycle actors. (Just saw Caroline from Vampire Diaries on Supernatural s4 episode) but now they are also recycling Music, as Radioactive was playing during the opening scene of Vampire Diaries last night with Damon "Welcome to the New Age".

And there were 3 people in the room, 2 of which were having an "intimate" moment, while the third watched. Made me think of ArrowGAF.

what no love triangle? only radioactive, fail
 
I wonder why simply not hating on a character is considered being deeply in love with her?
Do you know what would be insanely weird for Arrow? Killing off Laurel after the way they dismantled her personality, slowly, aspect by aspect. If they want to kill her off in a way that actually affects others in the show (the tragedy of it), they had to do it at the end of S1, not now. So what else will she be used for, if not for a story rebuilding her? To be "that normal regular person beside Ollie?" Her whole role would be pointless, and Arrow is well written enough so one can see how unnecessary that would be in terms of the bigger picture.

However, Sarah fighting and dying honorably? There is no shame in it. I do not want them to kill off her to get Laurel to be the canary, (even if I joke with it at times), but HONESTLY? As soon as Slade Fucking Wilson entered Starling City, everyone capable of fighting become a real target for a "character killoff". Slade going after Sarah would be understandable (Shado connection, obviously), and it would have a MUCH bigger impact on all the characters than if Roy sacrificed himself to save Ollie. Because let us face it: one is overpowered with the Mirakuru, the other is not. We either need a real miracle at this point, or a change of heart (but this is not Naruto the Tv Show, sadly or luckily, depending...), OR someone with the serum as well. Or more heroes.

Anyway, if there is bloodshed, killing Sarah would be a result of logical, reasonable storytelling. Letting her be on cause she does the salmon ladder is what made Supernatural unwatchable: the Winchesters should have been long gone, but hey, popularity rules.

That wasn't intended to be a snide comment. I meant more the desire to argue that deeply in either direction.

Sin and the Canary Cry came in with Sara. Laurel has Martial Arts training as they introduced earlier in the first season. Sara's costume also more closely resembles Dinah Drake's costume in the New 52, so there's hints there that she's the first and there will be a second. Quentin being a Detective seems to call back to Post-Crisis Dinah Laurel's father being a Detective as opposed to Pre-Crisis Larry Lance.

Basically Arrow writers have used a hodgepodge mix of elements throughout BC's iterations and split them pretty randomly between the two characters but what most makes me believe that Laurel is integral was past comments by the producers that had stated that Laurel and Ollie are destined as well as saying that Laurel would become BC. Of course, that could always change, but Sara being liked by the audience doesn't necessitate that they keep her imo.

It's not that I really like Laurel but I do feel a bit like someone has to stick up for her character when it gets absolutely shit on constantly in the thread. I'm fine with pointing out the flaws and miscues of a character but it's reached pretty high levels in the thread. To the point where people actively ignore Sara's (and her actresses) flaws and dogpile Laurel and her actress. I just prefer to take a more balanced view of things and try to voice that.

Larry Lance was a former cop private eye in post-Crisis as well, he's Dinah Laurel's father and Dinah Drake's husband. Pre-Crisis he's largely the same character and Dinah Drake's father is the police detective. His death is what makes the first BC decide to take up vigilantism.

Oddly enough, New 52 has Dinah Lance - no mother mentioned - and she gets the Lance surname from he husband, Kurt Lance.

I get you on the latter part of the post. I prefer Sara to Laurel, but I admit it makes more thematic sense to kill Sara and replace her with Laurel. That said, it's a CW show (fans can drive a lot), so I could see changes in the storyline to keep Sara around. Would be a bit of a kludge.

Ammell played a werewolf on Vampire Diaries :)

I remember when they first announced who would be Oliver and I hated the choice, because I had just seen Amell as the asshole werewolf on TVD. that's why I can never take casting at face value. Execution is everything.
 
Spiderman works just fine with Gwen.

Also, the argument that just because something happened in comics it needs to happen in show is useless and completely false. Arrow already went heavily against many of it's canons and nothing bad happened.

What matters if that Laurel isn't integral to canon of Arrow. The show can easily go without her and in opinion of most people it would only improve by doing so, as she's been consistently the weakest link in the show.

Spiderman with no MJ and only Gwen is beyond odd. Which is why even the reboot plans to bring in MJ eventually.

I'm not saying that what happens in the comics MUST happen in the show. I'm talking about the characters existing in the comics and what they become. Having Laurel in the show not become BC eventually makes no sense and means there's no purpose for her character ever being there in the first place.

Losing Laurel doesn't benefit the show at all. Had she not been there from the beginning, then sure. But having been there and having that history with Ollie.. killing her off at this point has no benefit beyond the fans not having someone to complain about. There's no story hook to it as no other character will grow from it. Detective Quentin wouldn't become stronger than he his nor would Sara. It would just a be a thing that happened. I don't comment on stuff like "the opinion of most people" because there's really no way to verify or deny that. Not all the fans jump online to pledge their likes and dislikes. And Laurel was fine in the arcs where writers weren't making her cold and bitchy.
 

Dawg

Member
Ivo is gonna tell Slade that Oliver had a choice, he's gonna be like "*evil dying villain laugh* he didn't tell you, did he?"

Now Slade is gonna make Oliver choose between Sara and Laurel. He won't be able to choose and Slade will shoot Sara, Ivo style.

Then Nyssa al Ghul returns to Starling City after the news of Sara's death. She goes after Slade but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Slade tells her.

Now Nyssa is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Felicity. He won't be able to choose and Nyssa will shoot Felicity.

Then Barry Allen returns to Starling city after the news of Felicity's death. He goes after Nyssa but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Nyssa tells him.

Now Barry Allen is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Diggle. He won't be able to choose and Barry will shoot Diggle.

Then Lyla Michaels returns to Starling City after the news of Diggle's death. She goes after Barry but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Barry tells her.

Now Lyla is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Roy. He won't be able to choose and Lyla will shoot Roy.

Then Thea finds out Roy died. She goes after Lyla but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Lyla tells her.

to be continued...
 

Joni

Member
I can't speak to budget but they could easily put her through some basic training in the off season. Amell isn't exactly a Black Belt. They just need her to look proficient at a few basics and then teach her the choreography before the filming of each episode, the same they would do any other actor or stunt person. They'll do what they have to do to fit the story. Making the story fit casting choices for a tv show would be a bad move.
He was cast in January 2012 and had time until about July 2012 to get ready, at which point he had already started the six-pack with Hung, and he had auditioned for Spartacus including their tests. Katie Cassidy would have less time, and would have to do it between doing the show and movies.

Spiderman with no MJ and only Gwen is beyond odd. Which is why even the reboot plans to bring in MJ eventually.

I'm not saying that what happens in the comics MUST happen in the show. I'm talking about the characters existing in the comics and what they become. Having Laurel in the show not become BC eventually makes no sense and means there's no purpose for her character ever being there in the first place.

Losing Laurel doesn't benefit the show at all. Had she not been there from the beginning, then sure. But having been there and having that history with Ollie.. killing her off at this point has no benefit beyond the fans not having someone to complain about. There's no story hook to it as no other character will grow from it. Detective Quentin wouldn't become stronger than he his nor would Sara. It would just a be a thing that happened. I don't comment on stuff like "the opinion of most people" because there's really no way to verify or deny that. Not all the fans jump online to pledge their likes and dislikes. And Laurel was fine in the arcs where writers weren't making her cold and bitchy.
They must however look at their actual audience. They must see Laurel isn't getting the reaction they wanted, and Sara is. They have also shown willing to to run loops around existing canon. The biggest part of the cast has no relation to canon. Diggle, Felicity, Moira, Thea, ...
 
Larry Lance was a former cop private eye in post-Crisis as well, he's Dinah Laurel's father and Dinah Drake's husband. Pre-Crisis he's largely the same character and Dinah Drake's father is the police detective. His death is what makes the first BC decide to take up vigilantism.

Oddly enough, New 52 has Dinah Lance - no mother mentioned - and she gets the Lance surname from he husband, Kurt Lance.

I get you on the latter part of the post. I prefer Sara to Laurel, but I admit it makes more thematic sense to kill Sara and replace her with Laurel. That said, it's a CW show (fans can drive a lot), so I could see changes in the storyline to keep Sara around. Would be a bit of a kludge.

Yeah I'm starting to get my characters all mixed up from memory. Looking it up it was Post-Crises Dinah Drake whose father was a Detective and I mixed up costumes as well with Sara's resembling original Dinah Drake's. I should've refreshed rather than gone by memory as I'm far from the most studied person on Green Arrow.

He was cast in January 2012 and had time until about July 2012 to get ready, at which point he had already started the six-pack with Hung, and he had auditioned for Spartacus including their tests. Katie Cassidy would have less time, and would have to do it between doing the show and movies.

Katie isn't out of shape. She'd just need a nutritionist and a trainer to create a more athletic build. She doesn't have to match Sara's physique and definitely shouldn't considering Sara's 5 years of training compared to Laurel's significantly less. It would be fine.
 
Ivo is gonna tell Slade that Oliver had a choice, he's gonna be like "*evil dying villain laugh* he didn't tell you, did he?"

Now Slade is gonna make Oliver choose between Sara and Laurel. He won't be able to choose and Slade will shoot Sara, Ivo style.

Then Nyssa al Ghul returns to Starling City after the news of Sara's death. She goes after Slade but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Slade tells her.

Now Nyssa is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Felicity. He won't be able to choose and Nyssa will shoot Felicity.

Then Barry Allen returns to Starling city after the news of Felicity's death. He goes after Nyssa but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Nyssa tells him.

Now Barry Allen is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Diggle. He won't be able to choose and Barry will shoot Diggle.

Then Lyla Michaels returns to Starling City after the news of Diggle's death. She goes after Barry but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Barry tells her.

Now Lyla is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Roy. He won't be able to choose and Lyla will shoot Roy.

Then Thea finds out Roy died. She goes after Lyla but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Lyla tells her.

to be continued...

What song would be the opposite of Radioactive? This would need recurring theme music.

I have a feeling it ends with Laurel being the last one standing, but she becomes so depressed, that she eventually kills herself overdosing on drugs and alcohol.
 

Tugatrix

Member
Ivo is gonna tell Slade that Oliver had a choice, he's gonna be like "*evil dying villain laugh* he didn't tell you, did he?"

Now Slade is gonna make Oliver choose between Sara and Laurel. He won't be able to choose and Slade will shoot Sara, Ivo style.

Then Nyssa al Ghul returns to Starling City after the news of Sara's death. She goes after Slade but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Slade tells her.

Now Nyssa is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Felicity. He won't be able to choose and Nyssa will shoot Felicity.

Then Barry Allen returns to Starling city after the news of Felicity's death. He goes after Nyssa but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Nyssa tells him.

Now Barry Allen is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Diggle. He won't be able to choose and Barry will shoot Diggle.

Then Lyla Michaels returns to Starling City after the news of Diggle's death. She goes after Barry but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Barry tells her.

Now Lyla is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Roy. He won't be able to choose and Lyla will shoot Roy.

Then Thea finds out Roy died. She goes after Lyla but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Lyla tells her.

to be continued...

giphy.gif
 
They must however look at their actual audience. They must see Laurel isn't getting the reaction they wanted, and Sara is. They have also shown willing to to run loops around existing canon. The biggest part of the cast has no relation to canon. Diggle, Felicity, Moira, Thea, ...

Considering how they've written her, I'm quite positive they're getting the exact reaction they wanted. The extreme Laurel hate didn't start until S2. Felicity is in the DCU but not related to Green Arrow (and she's got a tech background there as well iirc) and Thea appeared to originally be a take on Mia Dearden. Diggle and Moira are completely new though, yes. But that's part of my point. Laurel isn't a completely new character to do whatever with. Her and Sara both have elements of different versions of various BC's.
 
Ivo is gonna tell Slade that Oliver had a choice, he's gonna be like "*evil dying villain laugh* he didn't tell you, did he?"

Now Slade is gonna make Oliver choose between Sara and Laurel. He won't be able to choose and Slade will shoot Sara, Ivo style.

Then Nyssa al Ghul returns to Starling City after the news of Sara's death. She goes after Slade but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Slade tells her.

Now Nyssa is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Felicity. He won't be able to choose and Nyssa will shoot Felicity.

Then Barry Allen returns to Starling city after the news of Felicity's death. He goes after Nyssa but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Nyssa tells him.

Now Barry Allen is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Diggle. He won't be able to choose and Barry will shoot Diggle.

Then Lyla Michaels returns to Starling City after the news of Diggle's death. She goes after Barry but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Barry tells her.

Now Lyla is gonna make Oliver choose between Laurel and Roy. He won't be able to choose and Lyla will shoot Roy.

Then Thea finds out Roy died. She goes after Lyla but doesn't know Oliver had a choice. Lyla tells her.

to be continued...

tumblr_luglw3KpAi1qg95es.gif
 

Joni

Member
Considering how they've written her, I'm quite positive they're getting the exact reaction they wanted. The extreme Laurel hate didn't start until S2. Felicity is in the DCU but not related to Green Arrow (and she's got a tech background there as well iirc) and Thea appeared to originally be a take on Mia Dearden. Diggle and Moira are completely new though, yes. But that's part of my point. Laurel isn't a completely new character to do whatever with. Her and Sara both have elements of different versions of various BC's.
But she wasn't liked in season 1 either. They did their best to get Roy and Thea on a good level, but they never did that with Laurel who was disliked even a bit more than those 2 during season 1.
 
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