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Arrow Season 4 |OT| A Tale of Salt and Fire

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I wasn't even talking about the fight scene in the street, but the scene before it, where Oliver talked to Lance. It somehow reminded me of the set quality of How I Met Your Mother.

E: Man, that fight scene was all kinds of bad. Malcom went down like a chump and who's going to respect Nyssa, if she couldn't beat Malcom herself. And someone carried Felicity to the roof, even though it wasn't necessary at all?

Really not a fun episode.
 

Wozzly

special needs, sexual needs
I wasn't even talking about the fight scene in the street, but the scene before it, where Oliver talked to Lance. It somehow reminded me of the set quality of How I Met Your Mother.

Oh my bad! I got confused.

Is it normal for a mayoral candidate to get VIP access at crime scenes with a huge crowd of people watching and recording with their phones?
 

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Considering how Merlyn is a cockroach I half expect him to be running HIVE by next season.
 
William being in the Grave would feel like such a cop-out. The kid has had about five minutes of screen time- not enough for the audience to care.

I'm half expecting Thea or Diggle to take an arrow to save him, though.
 

tci

Member
This series really have taken a dive in terms of logic and fighting scenes. The league if assassins getting killed like it was nothing. Not sure if it is funny or sad.

If the next season don't fix these issues I am about done with it sadly. The first two seasons was so great :/
 
This series really have taken a dive in terms of logic and fighting scenes. The league if assassins getting killed like it was nothing. Not sure if it is funny or sad.

If the next season don't fix these issues I am about done with it sadly. The first two seasons was so great :/

Yeah, the first two seasons were excellent. It's been downhill ever since. It's still entertaining but nowhere near as good as the first two seasons, which were amazing. I thought that Arrow and Flash were neck and neck at the beginning but Flash has pulled away now in being the much more entertaining and fun show.
 

Joni

Member
E: Man, that fight scene was all kinds of bad. Malcom went down like a chump and who's going to respect Nyssa, if she couldn't beat Malcom herself. And someone carried Felicity to the roof, even though it wasn't necessary at all?
There might be an elevator somewhere if you see how much stuff they dragged up there. Poor guys that had to bring the weapons crate otherwise.

Is it normal for a mayoral candidate to get VIP access at crime scenes with a huge crowd of people watching and recording with their phones?
He is probably the closest thing they have to a mayor right now.
 
Nyssa killed the league of assassins :D. Brilliant episode, although i don´t like how Merlin was stomped so easily by Ollie. Telling Darhk about Ollie´s son is brilliant, and very evil move by Merlin.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Yeah, the first two seasons were excellent. It's been downhill ever since. It's still entertaining but nowhere near as good as the first two seasons, which were amazing. I thought that Arrow and Flash were neck and neck at the beginning but Flash has pulled away now in being the much more entertaining and fun show.

Eh, just wait until Flash S3/S4. The salt will be staggering.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
This series really have taken a dive in terms of logic and fighting scenes. The league if assassins getting killed like it was nothing. Not sure if it is funny or sad.

If the next season don't fix these issues I am about done with it sadly. The first two seasons was so great :/

I don't think the show can recover at this point. It's already in its fourth season and shows rarely stay good with time. The fact that the writers are still clinging to Malcolm Merlyn, a character who should have died 3 seasons ago, shows they have no interest in treading new ground. I feel the show has just become too bloated at this point and could only be saved by a drastic "reboot," culminating in "Green Arrow S1."

All that said, I don't dislike the show at the moment but it's nowhere near S1 and S2 levels of good and I don't think it can ever get back to that state in its current form.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
They're not going to suddenly give the show more money, the fight scenes can only be so good.

I'm fine with the show how it is. It's better than S3, and if people were expecting S2 quality to remain forever* they're sorely mistaken. Really struggling to think of 22+ episode dramas that stay quality for that long. Most 22-episode dramas peak around S3, and they don't burn through story like Arrow.


*I don't think S1 was all that great
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
They're not going to suddenly give the show more money, the fight scenes can only be so good.

I'm fine with the show how it is. It's better than S3, and if people were expecting S2 quality to remain forever* they're sorely mistaken. Really struggling to think of 22+ episode dramas that stay quality for that long. Most 22-episode dramas peak around S3, and they don't burn through story like Arrow.


*I don't think S1 was all that great

It was though, it really was. Just listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnj1wqcOvEk&list=FLiE5D3jpq8dIH-JGaB7X57g&index=51

When was the last time you remember hearing that epicness?
 

ZeroX03

Banned
Nah, because that song was coupled with great moments.

Year's End was okay. Probably the first really good episode. But you can really just jump from Year's End to The Odyssey to the last few episodes and that's the only really juicy stuff there.

Both S1 and S2 had a bunch of flop episodes in their first half. People just seem to remember the strong back end of the seasons, whereas S3 kind of flipped that and fell apart the further it went along.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Year's End was okay. Probably the first really good episode. But you can really just jump from Year's End to The Odyssey to the last few episodes and that's the only really juicy stuff there.

Both S1 and S2 had a bunch of flop episodes in their first half. People just seem to remember the strong back end of the seasons, whereas S3 kind of flipped that and fell apart the further it went along.

I won't dispute that but even the flop episodes were twice as good as the regular "good" episodes of the current seasons.
 
That fight on the street was so atrocious. And Oliver's "fight" with Malcolm was absurd. He just wiped the floor with him. Meh... this show is so much potential if they'd just up the production values a bit and polish up the writing before shooting. Oh well...
 

Joni

Member
Back then we had valid reasons to complain about Thea and Laurel. There are no characters nowadays where they are acting irrational at stupid moments. The actors are also a lot more 'stuck' in their role now. Laurel and Oliver for instance come over as good friends, something which was missing back then despite the story requiring it. But who knows, they could always have Darhk be madly in love with Taiana and be mad that she choose Oliver if we want to match the second season.
 
What was the point of cutting off Malcolm's hand? Why did Malcolm suddenly become so completely useless at fighting? I honestly thought it was a play by both of them to get the Lotus, but it was just stupid bullshit that turned one of the most badass characters into a pathetic shell.

What the hell happened this episode.

Where the fuck is Barry? Erase this shit from ever happening...
 

wildfire

Banned
I won't dispute that but even the flop episodes were twice as good as the regular "good" episodes of the current seasons.

I agree with this. I can't even be bothered to watching Arrow anymore. Reading these reaction recaps are sufficient and they won't fix it like One Piece's pacing won't be fixed because the ratings have stabilized and are still among the highest ratings on that network.
 

Joni

Member
What was the point of cutting off Malcolm's hand? Why did Malcolm suddenly become so completely useless at fighting? I honestly thought it was a play by both of them to get the Lotus, but it was just stupid bullshit that turned one of the most badass characters into a pathetic shell.
That is the problem with thinking someone is like the son you never had. Turns out you don't want to kill them. Oliver also trained to beat the actual Ra's who was stronger than Malcolm.
 
That is the problem with thinking someone is like the son you never had. Turns out you don't want to kill them. Oliver also trained to beat the actual Ra's who was stronger than Malcolm.

I'm just disappointed in what Malcolm turned into. I thought he'd put up more of a fight. I get the whole son he never had )Tommy...LOL), but he was willing to sacrifice his daughter to stay the demon's head.

Just didn't make any sense.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
I really don't agree with that, production value asides.

I'll just give an example before I go to bed. I think many people would agree that the Huntress episodes of S1 were pretty much a flop but I've always liked them, especially the very first ones, despite the terrible acting. The Huntress and her arc provided a clear theme and foil to Oliver's character at the moment. Someone who like Oliver had suffered loss, slipped into the dark side, and trained themselves to deliver out death as "justice." However, the Huntress quickly shows to Oliver the true ugly side of his pursuit, what happens when you fall completely down the dark path in your twisted sense of lethal justice. Oliver grows as a character through his encounter with Helena Bertinelli and becomes better from it. The episodes weren't just, "Hey look it's the Huntress, look how cool this is." They had themes which also helped spur character growth.

Now, let's compare that episode to the recent episode we just witnessed, which I enjoyed for the most part. Here, we have Oliver having to step in to save his sister by intervening in a League Civil War. Nyssa tells Oliver all that he has to do is kill Malcolm and she'll give him the cure. Now, rather than just kill this fucker whose had it coming for 4 seasons now Oliver refuses because "reasons." These reasons consisting of some warped logic of not wanting to deny his sister a possible relationship with her biological father. He mentions how Merlyn killed Tommy, "killed" Sara, and set Thea up to be stabbed by Ra's but still wishes to respect his sister's ability to have a father. Of course, this explanation is hilarious as it tries to retroactively downplay Malcolm's full culpability as he didn't just "kill Tommy" he murdered over 500 people with the Undertaking. An event the show would prefer we forget.

But, the reason I mention all of this is because I now have to ask what did Oliver learn from this episode? How did he grow as a character? In the end he refuses to kill Malcolm, maims him, and then gives Nyssa leadership over the League after which she proceeds to disband the entire organization. Now, that's a pretty nice sentiment on Nyssa's part but anyone with a brain and some memory might ask, WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T OLIVER DO THAT LAST SEASON IF THAT WAS AN OPTION? At the end of S3 he won, he defeated Ra's, he was the Demon's Head why not disband the League instead of handing it to Merlyn? We have no answer.

At the end, the only character who grew some was Felicity through her sub-plot with her dad which was almost unconnected to the main plot. So we get a flashy episode with some cool fight sequences that is devoid of sense or character development. That in a nutshell is my problem with current Arrow.
 

Joni

Member
I'm just disappointed in what Malcolm turned into. I thought he'd put up more of a fight. I get the whole son he never had )Tommy...LOL), but he was willing to sacrifice his daughter to stay the demon's head.

Just didn't make any sense.

The thing is, he never bothers to sacrifice Thea to stay the demon's head. He relentlessly chases Nyssa and her crew. He doesn't give up, he just thinks he can beat her.
 

Mario007

Member
I'm just disappointed in what Malcolm turned into. I thought he'd put up more of a fight. I get the whole son he never had )Tommy...LOL), but he was willing to sacrifice his daughter to stay the demon's head.

Just didn't make any sense.
This is Ollie we're talking about. Apart from random villain of the week nerfing, he is the strongest character in the arrowverse. He beat deathatroke, twice, beat merlyn, beat ras al ghul, beat the flash and beat the reverse flash. Ollie is extremely overpowered and the only way darhk is in any way beating him is through magic. Malcom putting so little of a fight is canon correct.
 
The thing is, he never bothers to sacrifice Thea to stay the demon's head. He relentlessly chases Nyssa and her crew. He doesn't give up, he just thinks he can beat her.

Sure, but by the end he seems to have come to terms with her passing. I don't know. Maybe I need to rewatch the episode to catch all the underlying context.

This is Ollie we're talking about. Apart from random villain of the week nerfing, he is the strongest character in the arrowverse. He beat deathatroke, twice, beat merlyn, beat ras al ghul, beat the flash and beat the reverse flash. Ollie is extremely overpowered and the only way darhk is in any way beating him is through magic. Malcom putting so little of a fight is canon correct.

I guess that's a good point. Still, I expected Malcolm to put up much more of a fight or at least have a plan where they trick Nyssa to get the Lotus.
 

Joni

Member
Sure, but by the end he seems to have come to terms with her passing. I don't know. Maybe I need to rewatch the episode to catch all the underlying context.
He was preparing for a fight to the death against presumably one of the most skilled fighters in this universe.
 
Considering how Merlyn is a cockroach I half expect him to be running HIVE by next season.

If that happens I hope HIVE is in Suicide Squad!

Better yet make a Merlyn the expendable guy at the beginning of Suicide Squad who gets to test the explosives.
Best case for both, Embargo kills his ass for Ollie, and we don't have to deal with a another in the movies.
 
so I'm rewatching season 1 and i forgot slade has a son, so death stroke jr?


He has three kids in the comics

Grant was a Teen Titans villain named Ravager. His death (engineered by HIVE) led to Slade swearing an oath to kill the team.

Joe was the Teen Titans member Jericho.

Rose was a Teen Titan, also using the name Ravager.
 

Joni

Member
He has three kids in the comics

Grant was a Teen Titans villain named Ravager. His death (engineered by HIVE) led to Slade swearing an oath to kill the team.

Joe was the Teen Titans member Jericho.

Rose was a Teen Titan, also using the name Ravager.

Those would have been a good a way to tie Titans into the Arrowverse if it hadn't been scratched.
 

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Slade would get a youthful new love interest too!
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