-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Arrow Season 4 |OT| A Tale of Salt and Fire
- Thread starter ZeroX03
- Start date
- Status
No lies detected.
Stallion Dan
Member
...and Felicity was never seen again.
That's my canon until after the break at least.
That's my canon until after the break at least.
Novel Mike
Member
And here I thought it was just me who thought this episode was trash.
Vixen was meh, her intro was awful and the CGI was pretty bad all around. I liked the first team up vs. Darhk that they had where he actually had trouble fighting both at once but it lasted for maybe 30 seconds before Ollie gets thrown out a window (which doesn't he have arrows for that? hasn't this happened before? Why did Vixen save him?)
The other fight scenes were just... terrible. The choreography was just outright bad. The upside down shot Thea did on the motorcycle just seemed silly with everything else that was happened but honestly I think the biggest problem with these fight scenes since they have so many characters is that none of them feel impactful or seem to have any stakes involved. No one ever seems to get hurt outside of generic ghost soldier a/b/c and this is despite them having guns and occasionally shooting at people it still never feels threatening to our protagonists. Remember early seasons? Ollie got stabbed, shot, burned, ect. and had to tend to his wounds it felt like at least most of the time that clearly his life is one the line when hes fighting... the only time anyone actually gets hurt anymore is for a plot reason including Felicity getting shot, it never really felt at risk because it was too soon for the grave scene anyway so it just doesn't feel real. I get that the writers were trying to build tension but revealing that the grave scene was so far out was a mistake, now were just expecting someone to die towards the end of the season rather then wondering if it could happen at any moment.
In general this episode and hell this SEASON felt like we've gone backwards in almost every aspect. Ollie has lied about something and its bit him in the ass just like it always does, SURPISE! Ollie and felicity are now broken up (but she got up and walked out! like seriously thats how you ended episode before a month break? What the fuck are they thinking!?) but the drama just feels needless, its drama for the sake of drama. Drama when its well written is great for advancing characters and plot arcs but these doesn't advance the plot in any way nor does it advance either ollie or felicities characters at all, its just tiresome at this point, either have them break up forever or just keep them a odd yet happy couple, this feels like were back in mid season 3 with brooding Ollie and whiny Felicity.
Then you have Damien Darhk, I like him when hes planning and conving but he never actually DOES anything, he threatens people and Ollie can't do shit to him (pre totem being stolen/broken anyway >.>) but every time they have an encounter Damien uses magic and it stuns Oliver briefly but he never actually harms him really. Counter this to how Zoom has been on Flash this season, the few times Barry has gone up against him Zoom has completely wrecked him, hell the first time he nearly fucking broke him (he did break his back) and because of that he is completely terrifying. Damien should be much more threatening and powerful then hes made out to be here and its a massive disappointment that with as many encounters as Ollie and Damien have had against each other the first time Ollie actually wins an exchange it doesn't feel like a 'YES OLLIE WON!!' moment like it should and more like... 'oh great, Damien lost, woohoo....'
It really just feels like this show is getting worse and worse and I'm not going to be surpised if a lot more people end up dropping it. It's amazing to see episodes from Season 1 and 2 and then to watch an episode in season 4 and just see all of the effort that the show used to put out just... gone.
I think another problem is that the 'team' is just to large at this point with everyone largely just being followers to Ollies lead they just feel like soliders who can only follow orders then people who have their own reasons for fighting. They don't suit up until Ollie says so, so their motivation is always 'lets do what our leader says' instead of 'I'm doing this for myself' so none of the characters feel like they are a key player in big game instead they are pawns with a king directing them at every turn.
Vixen was meh, her intro was awful and the CGI was pretty bad all around. I liked the first team up vs. Darhk that they had where he actually had trouble fighting both at once but it lasted for maybe 30 seconds before Ollie gets thrown out a window (which doesn't he have arrows for that? hasn't this happened before? Why did Vixen save him?)
The other fight scenes were just... terrible. The choreography was just outright bad. The upside down shot Thea did on the motorcycle just seemed silly with everything else that was happened but honestly I think the biggest problem with these fight scenes since they have so many characters is that none of them feel impactful or seem to have any stakes involved. No one ever seems to get hurt outside of generic ghost soldier a/b/c and this is despite them having guns and occasionally shooting at people it still never feels threatening to our protagonists. Remember early seasons? Ollie got stabbed, shot, burned, ect. and had to tend to his wounds it felt like at least most of the time that clearly his life is one the line when hes fighting... the only time anyone actually gets hurt anymore is for a plot reason including Felicity getting shot, it never really felt at risk because it was too soon for the grave scene anyway so it just doesn't feel real. I get that the writers were trying to build tension but revealing that the grave scene was so far out was a mistake, now were just expecting someone to die towards the end of the season rather then wondering if it could happen at any moment.
In general this episode and hell this SEASON felt like we've gone backwards in almost every aspect. Ollie has lied about something and its bit him in the ass just like it always does, SURPISE! Ollie and felicity are now broken up (but she got up and walked out! like seriously thats how you ended episode before a month break? What the fuck are they thinking!?) but the drama just feels needless, its drama for the sake of drama. Drama when its well written is great for advancing characters and plot arcs but these doesn't advance the plot in any way nor does it advance either ollie or felicities characters at all, its just tiresome at this point, either have them break up forever or just keep them a odd yet happy couple, this feels like were back in mid season 3 with brooding Ollie and whiny Felicity.
Then you have Damien Darhk, I like him when hes planning and conving but he never actually DOES anything, he threatens people and Ollie can't do shit to him (pre totem being stolen/broken anyway >.>) but every time they have an encounter Damien uses magic and it stuns Oliver briefly but he never actually harms him really. Counter this to how Zoom has been on Flash this season, the few times Barry has gone up against him Zoom has completely wrecked him, hell the first time he nearly fucking broke him (he did break his back) and because of that he is completely terrifying. Damien should be much more threatening and powerful then hes made out to be here and its a massive disappointment that with as many encounters as Ollie and Damien have had against each other the first time Ollie actually wins an exchange it doesn't feel like a 'YES OLLIE WON!!' moment like it should and more like... 'oh great, Damien lost, woohoo....'
It really just feels like this show is getting worse and worse and I'm not going to be surpised if a lot more people end up dropping it. It's amazing to see episodes from Season 1 and 2 and then to watch an episode in season 4 and just see all of the effort that the show used to put out just... gone.
I think another problem is that the 'team' is just to large at this point with everyone largely just being followers to Ollies lead they just feel like soliders who can only follow orders then people who have their own reasons for fighting. They don't suit up until Ollie says so, so their motivation is always 'lets do what our leader says' instead of 'I'm doing this for myself' so none of the characters feel like they are a key player in big game instead they are pawns with a king directing them at every turn.
……forgetit
Member
So did they actually arrest Darhk or what?
HeartlessNobody213
Member
Hahaha, wow you guys are really going in on this episode. I know it wasn't that great and that ending combined with that straight up laughable CGI of Vixen taking the idol from Darhk was atrocious.
The way you guys are talking though, you would think this was season 3. I guess my expectations are so low now that this episode didn't really bother me that much. If anything it was one of the most unintentionally funny episodes of TV I've seen in a minute.
As far as how long I want Arrow to continue? Well being that it's on the CW, unless the ratings start falling off a cliff, it's safe to assume Arrow will most likely get at least 6 seasons. At this point I'm kind of watching just to watch anyway so it doesn't really matter to me if it doesn't last past season 5 to be completely honest.
The way you guys are talking though, you would think this was season 3. I guess my expectations are so low now that this episode didn't really bother me that much. If anything it was one of the most unintentionally funny episodes of TV I've seen in a minute.
As far as how long I want Arrow to continue? Well being that it's on the CW, unless the ratings start falling off a cliff, it's safe to assume Arrow will most likely get at least 6 seasons. At this point I'm kind of watching just to watch anyway so it doesn't really matter to me if it doesn't last past season 5 to be completely honest.
I legitimately think this episode had production issues. Direction, editing, fight scenes, writing. There's a standard that even S3 episodes met that weren't being met here. Felt like a second draft script that was hastily shot. The relationship stuff was so funny to me it's easily one of my favourite episodes, but that is not a judgement on quality.
Also AV Club is just plain wrong about this show. Those reviews are whack.
It's a lock for six seasons at this point.
But I don't know. Seven? Indefinitely? TV shows are weird. It probably won't reach S2 levels of quality again. It could, but it's a tough ask. The show could drastically reinvent itself but shows almost never do. Or they're like The Good Wife and they do big things and then just slowly morph back to the status quo. Or they're Supernatural and have a five year rut until a killer season eleven. Hard for dramas to run long, they only have so many cards they can play when stakes are life or death. Even on Flash... once Joe dies, that's it. That's as big as that show will ever be able to emotionally hit post Barry's mom. Add shrinking budgets in and it gets tough. Smallville had the benefit of doing literally nothing with the mythos for years, so they had stuff to mine in later seasons to keep things 'fresh'. Not the case here. Basically, I have no answer on what would be best.
What I do hope is that the show knows when the final season will be. Shows having advance warning of the end go all out. I'd love for 23 episodes heading toward a definitive end. Full of fan service and finality.
Also AV Club is just plain wrong about this show. Those reviews are whack.
It's a lock for six seasons at this point.
But I don't know. Seven? Indefinitely? TV shows are weird. It probably won't reach S2 levels of quality again. It could, but it's a tough ask. The show could drastically reinvent itself but shows almost never do. Or they're like The Good Wife and they do big things and then just slowly morph back to the status quo. Or they're Supernatural and have a five year rut until a killer season eleven. Hard for dramas to run long, they only have so many cards they can play when stakes are life or death. Even on Flash... once Joe dies, that's it. That's as big as that show will ever be able to emotionally hit post Barry's mom. Add shrinking budgets in and it gets tough. Smallville had the benefit of doing literally nothing with the mythos for years, so they had stuff to mine in later seasons to keep things 'fresh'. Not the case here. Basically, I have no answer on what would be best.
What I do hope is that the show knows when the final season will be. Shows having advance warning of the end go all out. I'd love for 23 episodes heading toward a definitive end. Full of fan service and finality.
Golf clap. The downfall of this show was when everyone became a superhero. Like i said before, if you're focusing more on the "hero" part of the show the action better make up for the lack of any other identity ( e.g Laurel being a lawyer in season 1/2, Tommy/Speedy/Ollie's mom, the company he run and the playboy identity, fleshed out story in the flashbacks that actually tie back to the present in a meaningful way etc etc).
BewareTheBatsie
Member
It seemed the only good things about this episode was Laurel, Vixen (as a character, the CGI was pretty sloppy) and Diggle. Who in their right mind looked at that last scene and thought yep, that's the best way to leave it for a months break.
The Silver
Member
Oh yeah what the hell is going on in the flashback stuff, I always just tune out
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Maybe I missed a line or something, but I wasn't even clear on that. Are the police supposed to have him in custody? After all that, Oliver should have put an arrow in his spine and bounced.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
Oh man. They've really handled this whole paralyzed stuff poorly.
cereal_killerxx
Junior Member
Blah, this show is becoming frustrating. Did they fire the writers from season 2 or what?
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I imagine he'll take over what little operation they've got going on there, or be involved in busting out Dahrk. Probably the former.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Anyone remotely good went to Flash.
Literally no writer moved from Arrow entirely to Flash. Unless you count Geoff Johns who was never a staff writer to begin with.
RellyRell28
Banned
Can't believe I missed this post. Bravo. I mean people let's remember what channel these shows airs on. I've enjoyed this season so much so far as it's been really great.
Real talk though those action scenes were horrible but I give this show and LoT a pass for this week due to what they put in the Flash this week.
legendaryskitch
Member
Wow, just watched last night's episode. Holy crap that ending was hilarious. The rest of the episode was alright and I liked but the "lulz I can walk now" was just silly. People were talking about how this week could be the best week of the season for the Arrowverse and it really is going fantastic so far with both shows highlighting their key features. Flash highlighted it's twists and interesting plot while Arrow highlighted the fact that it's better when they have guests and that the relationship drama is hilariously bad.
ChaosZeroX
Banned
Can you really blame people for disliking Felicity? Guggenheim has absolutely run her character into the fucking ground. This is a show that was great and is running out of steam fast due to all the shit writing and things that don't make any sense.
TheCowboyPoet
Member
Ok so, I think we can assume the "him" they've been talking about killing in the two flashforward scenes was Merlyn. We know it's not Felicity and from Meryln's speech to Thea, I don't think he'd kill her, unless it's an accident, so it's probably not her either. I'm starting to get nervous for Diggle.
dead souls
Member
I loved this one. The ending was a "so bad it's good" moment to me. Just completely goofy.
They need to scrap several characters and bring in interesting ones from the comics. Stop making very important organizations extremely lame and tone down the relationship drama. Plus Oliver needs to either commit to being a killer or stop being a bitch about it and actually bring some innovation to his fights instead of doing the same shit each fight. You don't see him or batman constantly bitching about it in the comics they deal with their issues in a non lethal way.
I hope they try the outsider war because that can revitalize the show but the romantic drama cannot be the center piece again it's rather tiresome and is always Ollie is a bad guy bashing.
I honestly don't like Thea, felicity, or Laurel because they all have come into the arrows thing kinda make it hard for Oliver to act plus 1 of them gets constantly kidnapped or does something stupid to undermine him. He's lost his resourcefulness and connects from season 1 and has become dependent on annoying partners.
If they can pull of Richard dragon and give us a non jobber outsiders plus pull off Emiko I'll be happy.
It was definitely a "narm" moment for me.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
I hope season 5 has Oliver going after the names in the book again. Have him searching through his Mother's stuff with Thea, come across another copy, and notice that all the evil people he's fought since are in there.
Macadinho94
Member
I forgot if he's dead or not but I'd love Walter to come back and run for mayor.
TheCowboyPoet
Member
He's still alive but I'm pretty sure the writers forgot about him. He's off living with the Queen's housekeeper somewhere.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Is limitless any good?He's too busy being awesome on Limitless
OdysseusVA
Banned
Very
OdysseusVA
Banned
Because it looked cool.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
"Cisco made me a flare arrow and I'd be damned if I don't to get to use it just once!"
TheCowboyPoet
Member
That's a good point. That would have been a cool image if say, Darhk's people were monitoring or blocking all nearby radio signals, so Team Arrow all approached from different angles and that was their sign to attack. But as it was, it just sort of endangered William.
BewareTheBatsie
Member
I still think Lance is in the grave. His character has run its' course if you ask me, he just turns up for a few scenes per episode, and all he has been doing this season is dating Felicity's mom.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
dead souls
Member
haha. That's a good one.
OdysseusVA
Banned
If anyone has the time (or wants to do this), how many scene changes were there in last night's episode? I'm thinking back to season 1 and 2 and I get this gut feeling that it feels like there's just too much jumping around from scene to scene the past 2 seasons. They don't give any time for a scene to breathe or develop into something other than a two sentence exchange between characters. I'm also starting to get peeved at how fast characters can travel from place to place in the such a short amount of time (while also getting in and out of their hero outfits). It's starting to break whatever believe-ability the show had in the first few seasons.
- Status