BronsonLee
Member
I fixed that. Ollie is saaaawft. Season 1 Ollie would not only have let Thea light that fucker on fire, he would've poured gas on him
And since he saved him, a few more people died, gj Ollie
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Arrow Season 4 |OT| A Tale of Salt and Fire
- Thread starter ZeroX03
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I fixed that. Ollie is saaaawft. Season 1 Ollie would not only have let Thea light that fucker on fire, he would've poured gas on him
And since he saved him, a few more people died, gj Ollie
Except Thea and Sara's situations aren't the same.
Hours Left
Member
They are similar enough that trying to utilize the same method to save both isn't out of the question. It actually makes more sense for Sara IMO because she has stronger ties to the league.
The amount of time that has passed is the only thing I think makes it a bit dubious, but I'm not gonna fault the show for that when we already give it a pass for some many other things. On a personal level, even if it is being driven primarily by emotion, I don't think what Laurel is going to (presumably) do is wrong in any way. She has a chance to save her sister, who was unfairly taken from her twice. This is perfectly in line with Laurel's character IMO, and I think it would be strange if she didn't go for it. Ollie's feelings on the matter don't matter much to me, as I think despite the fact he obviously cares for Laurel, he has done more harm than good when trying to impose his views on her. He takes a "do what I say, not what I do" approach with her all the time, and I think that's junk.
Sara is a decomposing corpse that's been buried for a year. That's a huge difference from Thea was barely dead (the show wasn't too clear in that) and she still came back wrong.
Everyone in the League is also well aware that the Lazarus Pit is dangerous.
Nyssa also loves Sara and doesn't want to do it, and she'd be better informed than Laurel.
Hours Left
Member
Again, the time thing doesn't matter to me. This show plays fast and loose with numerous situations where if we looked at things more realistically, 99% of times, the main characters would be dead. Ollie was stabbed in the freaking chest (which was strangely altered when we saw the wound again) and kicked off a frigid mountain in nothing but a pair of pants and survived. Sara being a bit mushy doesn't mean much.
Expecting realism to be the deciding factor on a superhero show doesn't really fly with me, so that's why I'm looking at this from an emotional and personal level, and taking that into account, what Laurel is doing makes sense, and Ollie would be a jerk to oppose it.
As for Nyssa, she's been drinking too much of the League Kool-Aid to be making a logical choice in this situation. Nyssa puts honor and tradition above life, and while that works for her character, I don't think that leads to the best decisions. In the short time she spent with Laurel outside the League, you could already see some of it starting to fade, and her humanity coming through.
I wonder if Malcolm being the head honcho has changed Nyssa's decision on using the pit. I mean, with Ra's there, it was clear that she wouldn't do anything
Napoleonthechimp
Member
If the Laurel hatred starts all over again... I swear to god I'm done with the Arrow fandom in general.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Goddamn, Thea going off the cliff hard.
Have to agree that Sara is going to come back much worse if this is what the pit does when someone is only near death. She's been dead for over a year at this point.
Have to agree that Sara is going to come back much worse if this is what the pit does when someone is only near death. She's been dead for over a year at this point.
Emotional and personal decision making doesn't make it good decision making though. Anyone calling Laurel out for making a stupid call is correct. I don't care if it's in character for her to do so, I'm not saying it's not, but clearly a bunch of warning signs are just that. Oliver's decision making at the time didn't have the same context. If Thea was dead for a year and he'd seen evidence that it could damage people he probably wouldn't make that call. Notice Moira's still dead?
And Nyssa pretty much flung honor and tradition away when she tried to stab Oliver and turned on Ra's.
Hours Left
Member
Was it ever said that the amount of time between death and using the pit affects any aspect of the resurrection?
All I remember is a general, "they'll be different" warning.
Thea is sitting right in front of Laurel, alive. That's a much bigger signal that she's doing the right thing. They have exactly one frame of reference for the pit's effects, and that's Thea. Would any member of the team wish that Thea had died instead? No, I don't think they would. Ollie telling Laurel not to try and save her sister despite him doing just that would be a really lame thing to do IMO.
And Nyssa's change of character was an effect of being exposed to the outside world, which is what I previously stated. She is slowly shedding her indoctrinated ways, and I think her reluctance to use the pit for Sara is one of those beliefs.
Same. One thing I really hate about Arrow-GAF, besides the hyperbole, is how people hate on Laurel for stupid reasons. Same for Flash-GAf and people hating Iris constantly.
BronsonLee
Member
I'm not down with hating on Iris at all (though I don't think she's a very good love interest for Barry), but Laurel went shoot dumbass in Season 2 real hard. We should be past that by now, though.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I always assumed the power needed by the pit bring people back varies depending on how long they've been dead/injured.
Although they do have an out with the 'they'll be different' bit. They can just show her having the same outbursts as Thea.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
I do agree it gets overboard here, but the writers seem to love to write her making bad decisions. I mean, I know she misses her sister, but Thea is right in front of her all f'd up.
BronsonLee
Member
Yeah, Laurel bringing back Sara makes perfect sense. Thea is having issues, but which would you rather have? A sister with problems, or no sister at all?
Why aren't Moira and Tommy back?
The economics of televisions and tenants of storytelling aside
Which again is kind of undercut by us knowing she's functional enough to be on Legends
Hours Left
Member
Exactly. Thea is not totally right in the head, that much is obvious, but she's not some zombie husk or anything. She's still Thea.
If we were talking just bring the body back to life, but the person themselves were gone, of course it would the wrong decision, but could anyone really say they wouldn't try and bring back a loved one if they had proof that it works sitting right in front of them?
The general lameness of fictional resurrections aside, Tommy and Moira both had "honorable" deaths, in that they were sacrificing themselves to save others. Sara's death was a super lame off screen "mystery" used to wring drama out of a ridiculous situation, and if anyone deserves a second (read: third) chance, it's her.
Now, I do hope the pit is destroyed after this, because always having it there as a possible "get out of death free" card doesn't serve the general narrative very well IMO, but as soon as the pit was first teased, the overwhelming fan theory was that it was gonna be used on Sara, and we're now just fulfilling that prophecy. We've been building to this for over an entire season now. This makes sense to me, I do think Laurel is in the right, and using Thea as an example of why she shouldn't do it doesn't work with me, because they'd all choose having this Thea over having her dead in the ground.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Easy to say now until she starts crippling and burning people alive.
Edit: It makes sense for the character. But it's still a bad decision.
BronsonLee
Member
Because Ollie is scared of what is happening to Thea, and the Lazarus Pit doesn't work on betas
And if Thea works through her problems, then what's the issue? If she waits to see if it works out, she may not be able to revive Sara. Time is now.
She was already doing that shit before, what changes? She's a damn assassin!
I don't think your reasons for Moira and Tommy not being revived make any sense. Oliver wouldn't want his mother and brother back? Please. Honorable death lmao that's not a reason.
Also even if they destroy the Lazarus Pit there's still infinite earths. Laurel needed to travel to Earth-2 to revive Sara-2 in Lazarus Pit-2 because emotions, it's totally a smart idea.
Hours Left
Member
I mean as far as it suits the narrative, Moira and Tommy's stories came to a logical conclusion with their deaths, Sara's did not. Her death was stupid, and pointless.
If the writers are making a choice of who to bring back with the pit, Sara is the obvious decision. It's an act to move her and Laurel's stories forward. Bringing back Tommy or Moira wouldn't accomplish this. They're not gonna start a Lazurus Pit shuttle service after this. This is it as far as I'm concerned.
BronsonLee
Member
Now MALCOLM on the other hand...
He may want to bring his son home. Especially if Sara works (and we know it does).
He may want to bring his son home. Especially if Sara works (and we know it does).
You're talking about storytelling now. I agree Tommy and Moira coming back doesn't make sense from a story perspective, but you were the one talking about emotion. If the Lazarus Pit was a reliable way to bring back people who had been dead for years wouldn't Oliver take it? This is the angle YOU argued. You keep changing where you're coming from.
PS. The reason Sara is being brought back is for Legends.
Judging by the S3 finale, Malcolm seems to care more about Oliver than Tommy. He didn't much care for Tommy. Called him a joke.
But I mean he'll probably do what Thea asks and Thea and Oliver both love Moira and Tommy so I mean, what's stopping them?
Hours Left
Member
I actually don't understand Ollie's position because he himself said he thought Thea was fine at first, so why he didn't explore it further back then, I couldn't say. He didn't even consciously realize that something was wrong with her until he came back, and he certainly didn't stick around to keep tabs on her. That's inconsistency on the writers' part.
The whole basis of this conversation is that you said you think Laurel would be wrong in trying to save Sara this way because she's not learning from Ollie's mistakes. Was bringing Thea back a mistake? I don't think it was, and I don't think anyone on the team would think so either, so him taking a position telling her not to try the same method isn't valid IMO.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
It'll be interesting to see how they play out Sara's resurrection.
In the run up to Legends of Tomorrow they made it very clear that White Canary is basically going to be a new character in terms of personality. I can already see Sara eventually settling into a sort of Red Hood-type personality.
In the run up to Legends of Tomorrow they made it very clear that White Canary is basically going to be a new character in terms of personality. I can already see Sara eventually settling into a sort of Red Hood-type personality.
My position was Oliver would be justified in chastising her when there's a whole bunch of evidence it's a bad idea.
You call it a writer's inconsistency when it could very well be the fact that they have something in common with Sara which is that they've been dead for a year or more.
Anyway I'm done with this. Every time I try and adjust to your way of thinking you just change it around on me and I can't play catch up forever.
Darth Pinche
Member
Yup, it is the Queen Elizabeth Theater in Vancouver. That place is used a lot in tv and movies.
Hours Left
Member
I'm not trying to intentionally confuse the subject, I'm just looking at it from different angles.
Ollie leaving town and not making any attempt to check on Thea for possible side effects is a big inconsistency. If he was worried that something was going to happen to her, why wasn't he watching over her? But if you don't want to continue, that's fine.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I can't fault Laurel for wanting to do it. But Oliver being hypocritical is a part of his character. Like his lecture to Huntress about killing people when he...you know, did the same thing all the time. Even chastising Thea for torturing that guy for information is a huge hypocrisy because Oliver did the same thing in the Flash crossover last year.
Oliver has mellowed out, but he still lies and keeps secrets from the people he should trust the most. Laurel even joked about it in this episode to Thea "It's Ollie"
But Laurel is also helping out Thea in the process, so that might calm Oliver down.
Oliver has mellowed out, but he still lies and keeps secrets from the people he should trust the most. Laurel even joked about it in this episode to Thea "It's Ollie"
But Laurel is also helping out Thea in the process, so that might calm Oliver down.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Speaking of which, where's Wozzly? I want my Moira/Danforth story.
tensuke
Member
lmao not only did she set him on fire, but she was still beating him up after. Jesus.
Also lolololololololololololololololol at Sarah's corpse making the stupid duck face. Not even in death could she stop with that.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
I think the general consensus matches what you said. It's already a clear step above the last season.
There are a few people who I think the show irrevocably lost last season, but they've yet to come to terms with that and are still watching and not enjoying themselves.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
There is no reason to destroy the Lazarus Pit to get rid of a get out of death free card because there is time travel and alternative realities in the Arrowverse.
It was impossible to be worse than last season. I like this season though, I like the new tone and no more whiney unrealistic stupid drama.
Plotforce.
Speaking of the fanbase hating Laurel, she very much used to be the worst character in the show, by a country mile.
She has gotten better, but I don't think they really fixed her, just actively stopped giving her dumbass plots, and let her suit up and hit people with everyone else.
She hasn't really done much good or bad, just kinda there.
We will see how well this League plot goes.
She has gotten better, but I don't think they really fixed her, just actively stopped giving her dumbass plots, and let her suit up and hit people with everyone else.
She hasn't really done much good or bad, just kinda there.
We will see how well this League plot goes.
BronsonLee
Member
Did he really zap him in the ass
pfft, I just want everything they established last season to fly through the window and not haunt me in my dreams. And so far it's staring me back.
Plasticine
Member
Laurel hate is completely justified. She's a hypocritical, manipulative and generally awful human being.
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