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Arrow Season 4 |OT| A Tale of Salt and Fire

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S

Shaanyboi

Banned
ZeroX03 said:
Lazy writing is about an offensive a term as lazy devs. Nobody goes into this trying to do a bad job.
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I agree, but it also doesn't mean they aren't doing a bad job...

The show is exceedingly uninspired and toothless now. Even Laurel's death fell super flat. It's just a bad soap now with none of the positives that balanced out its earlier seasons. Its ever-shrinking budget is only partially to blame for what has now become a husk of a once-entertaining show.
 
D

DeathyBoy

Banned
Shaanyboi said:
I agree, but it also doesn't mean they aren't doing a bad job...

The show is exceedingly uninspired and toothless now. Even Laurel's death fell super flat. It's just a bad soap now with none of the positives that balanced out its earlier seasons.
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By your standards. But the ratings suggest that the audience they have likes it. If they didn't, they'd flee. You can call it bad, but calling it lazy is where I'd draw the line.
 
J

Joni

Member
Shaanyboi said:
I agree, but it also doesn't mean they aren't doing a bad job...

The show is exceedingly uninspired and toothless now. Even Laurel's death fell super flat. It's just a bad soap now with none of the positives that balanced out its earlier seasons. Its ever-shrinking budget is only partially to blame for what has now become a husk of a once-entertaining show.
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The death itself was weirdly tacked on but the response was on par. Felt like how those people should respond.
 
KonradLaw

KonradLaw

Member
Shaanyboi said:
Moira
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Moira? Her death was cool, but the fallout from it was pathetic. I like Amell as an actor and it was fun to see him mop for half an episode but that's all there was to it. Laurel is the sole death where character actually good emotional send off and the only death that had significant effect on all characters in the show.

And I didn't even like this character. The only death that might have been better is Maseo one, but since people hated S3 here I doubt it would get many votes.
 
J

Joni

Member
Moira and Maseo both had excellent death scenes but not much happened afterward. Sara and tommy had bad death scenes and weak follow up. Laurel had very strong follow up and the immediate part after Darhk stabbing her was good as well. They shouldnt have said she would make it. Just have that final convo before slipping away.
 
KonradLaw

KonradLaw

Member
ZeroX03 said:
It's still Tommy.

This last episode spent all that time saying nice things about him!
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Tommy was a looser even in death. Not only he turned Laurel into most hated character, since he died for her papers, but also neutered Olie with the whole "omg! Tommy would think I'm a murderer ;(".

Poor Tommy, dissapoitment to everyone, from his father to show viewers. :)
 
M

Mario007

Member
Napoleonthechimp said:
For the third year I stuck it out in the hopes it would get better. It didn't. They made promises that it'd be on track for the fourth season but that has turned to shit.

There will be no sticking it out for a fifth season.

And if you can't see how not knowing the antagonist's motivations or overall plan by the 20th episode is indicative of a bigger problem with the writing of this show then you deserve what they've got cooked up for you.
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Again pretty much all of Berlanti villains work like this, with the sole exception of RF and Slade, and strangely enough Ra'as.
 
J

Joni

Member
DeathyBoy said:
Actually, we didn't know Ra's real plan until near the end either. The "wipe out Star City" thing was a late addition.
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It is important to note he had two distinct plans: one, take revenge for Sara's death, which leads to The Climb so this is introduced very early. Second, get Oliver to join him and follow in his footsteps. This is introduced quite quickly after The Climb. The wiping out Star City isn't really his plan, it was part of the initiation.
 
O

Oregano

Member
I think an issue with comparing this season to the first season in regards to when plans are revealed is that the first season had the list and that was what motivated Oliver. Actually I'd say one of the reasons Season One was so refreshing was that Oliver acted, not reacted.

It's also worth noting that for Season 2 Brother Blood was the big bad for the first half of the season. Season 3 and 4 drag the same bad guy out over the whole season.
 
J

Joni

Member
Oregano said:
Season 3 and 4 drag the same bad guy out over the whole season.
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I'd say that wasn't the case. The League of Assassins doesn't really act as season 3 villains until The Climb. It was mostly a mix of case of the week with the murder mystery.

ZeroX03 said:
They all just want to destroy the city
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They must be hiding that Grey's Anatomy is set in Star CIty in this universe.

DeathyBoy said:
Destroying the city seems to be his actual plan, given he plans to do it with/without Oliver.
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He seems to be doing it to force Oliver into his role.
 
M

Mario007

Member
DeathyBoy said:
Destroying the city seems to be his actual plan, given he plans to do it with/without Oliver.
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I haven't rewatched s3 in a long time so you might be right. Still, in that case it was more of a last minute twist, as the viewer is engaged in his plan making Oliver next Ra'as.
 
O

Oregano

Member
Joni said:
I'd say that wasn't the case. The League of Assassins doesn't really act as season 3 villains until The Climb. It was mostly a mix of case of the week with the murder mystery.


They must be hiding that Grey's Anatomy is set in Star CIty in this universe.


He seems to be doing it to force Oliver into his role.
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True, Ra's screentime was like 5 minutes in the first half of season 3.
 
O

Oddduck

Member
So I was reading the other day that Legends of Tomorrow is adding an Arrow writer and a Flash writer to their Season 2.

Keto Shimizu wrote 13 episodes of Arrow, 1 episode of The Flash.
Grainne Godfree wrote 6 episodes of The Flash, 1 teleplay for Arrow, and was executive story editor of 20 episodes of The Flash.

http://screencrush.com/legends-of-tomorrow-season-2-details-arrow-flash/

Legends will borrow writers from both DC dramas, not only to facilitate crossover, but to completely reinvent the series from atom.

That said, Season 2 will add Arrow writer Keto Shimizu and Flash scribe Grainne Godfree to “make our stories work in concert” toward a three-sided crossover
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Question: Does anyone see this having any impact on the quality (positive or negative) of next season's Arrow or The Flash?
 
V

Volimar

Member
I don't think this season has been bad, it just hasn't been good. The worst thing for me so far is "WHY WOULD YOU PUT THE IDOL BACK TOGETHER YOU IDIOTS?!?!?"
 
J

Joni

Member
I don't think it will matter quite that much, it is basically a big writing room, with both shows having quite some writers with experience on that staff. I think the effect will be more profound on Vixen, Keto was the main writer there. It is interesting to see that they are transferring two female staff members so maybe the Tomorrow writers room is a bit too male centric. Also interesting to see that those two started as writers, but that is absolutely not their title anymore. Keto has producer credit nowadays and Grainne is the executive story editor, so it really seems a matter of putting in experience into Tomorrow. In general, the writers rooms for these four shows are quite close, so people with a bit more knowledge on the other shows can easily walk through the hall.
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Oddduck said:
So I was reading the other day that Legends of Tomorrow is adding an Arrow writer and a Flash writer to their Season 2.

Keto Shimizu wrote 13 episodes of Arrow, 1 episode of The Flash.
Grainne Godfree wrote 6 episodes of The Flash, 1 teleplay for Arrow, and was executive story editor of 20 episodes of The Flash.

http://screencrush.com/legends-of-tomorrow-season-2-details-arrow-flash/



Question: Does anyone see this having any impact on the quality (positive or negative) of next season's Arrow or The Flash?
Click to expand...

I don't expect that will change much. The shows are so collaborative that you could shift people around and I doubt anyone would notice. I could see more negativity getting slung towards Flash next year. And maybe Legends starts improving a bit.

I've noticed that Season 2 is the sweet spot for a lot of shows. They've already spent an entire season establishing the characters, they've gotten a chance to see fan reactions before they start writing, and haven't run out of gimmicks yet. Season 2s are usually fan favorites in this genre shows.

3 way crossover. That sounds both exhausting and exciting. I mean it isn't like I don't already watch Flash, Arrow, and Legends. Lol

EDIT: I honestly have no ideas on what these shows could do to improve. They're sorta beyond that point now unless they just get rid of characters, which is more of a last season type of move to save money. I don't really know what lessons Oliver has to learn. The show does personal stakes better than grandiose ones. Ra's forcing Oliver into becoming the next leader of The League of Assassins was okay. That snowballing into a tired "destroy the city" plan was not.

Flash could add more depth to pretty much everyone, but I don't know if it wants to be that show. If next season's threat is someone wanting to steal Barry's speed, my brain is going to turn into a glazed donut. Personally, I'd like to see either show do more non-traditional problems as their season long arc. Like maybe Barry starts going too fast, and is close to disappearing into the speed force or something. Then pepper the season with villain mini-arcs like Gotham is doing with its second season.

Looking back on this season, I've probably liked more episodes than I've disliked. But as a whole, something is still off. Like a clear direction they wanted this season to go. Darkh doesn't have to reveal his entire plan, but there is no menace left in his character for me. The show doesn't even seem that interested in exploring what he is doing anymore.
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
Oddduck said:
So I was reading the other day that Legends of Tomorrow is adding an Arrow writer and a Flash writer to their Season 2.

Keto Shimizu wrote 13 episodes of Arrow, 1 episode of The Flash.
Grainne Godfree wrote 6 episodes of The Flash, 1 teleplay for Arrow, and was executive story editor of 20 episodes of The Flash.

http://screencrush.com/legends-of-tomorrow-season-2-details-arrow-flash/



Question: Does anyone see this having any impact on the quality (positive or negative) of next season's Arrow or The Flash?
Click to expand...

Stop trying to read into writing credits like you know how much that individual writer is responsible for. We can't know that.

WB writers and producers are a close knit bunch, it doesn't necessarily mean their contributions - whatever they were - will be completely halted on either Flash or Arrow. The offices are the same building after all.
 
O

Oddduck

Member
Joni said:
I don't think it will matter quite that much, it is basically a big writing room, with both shows having quite some writers with experience on that staff. I think the effect will be more profound on Vixen, Keto was the main writer there. It is interesting to see that they are transferring two female staff members so maybe the Tomorrow writers room is a bit too male centric. Also interesting to see that those two started as writers, but that is absolutely not their title anymore. Keto has producer credit nowadays and Grainne is the executive story editor, so it really seems a matter of putting in experience into Tomorrow. In general, the writers rooms for these four shows are quite close, so people with a bit more knowledge on the other shows can easily walk through the hall.
Click to expand...

Good points. Especially your point on the Tomorrow writers room being a bit too male centric.


Grizzlyjin said:
I don't expect that will change much. The shows are so collaborative that you could shift people around and I doubt anyone would notice. I could see more negativity getting slung towards Flash next year. And maybe Legends starts improving a bit.

I've noticed that Season 2 is the sweet spot for a lot of shows. They've already spent an entire season establishing the characters, they've gotten a chance to see fan reactions before they start writing, and haven't run out of gimmicks yet. Season 2s are usually fan favorites in this genre shows.

3 way crossover. That sounds both exhausting and exciting. I mean it isn't like I don't already watch Flash, Arrow, and Legends. Lol
Click to expand...

Yeah, Season 2 is the sweet spot for a lot of shows. We've seen this happen many times throughout history. (Arrow, Agents of Shield, Gotham). They see what could have been improved with S1 and they make those adjustments with S2. I'm curious to see how a Supergirl S2 would improve. My only concern with The Flash is whether it will get any noticeable budget cuts in Season 3. Hopefully CW won't mess with The Flash since it's been a success for them.

Grizzlyjin said:
I could see more negativity getting slung towards Flash next year.
Click to expand...

I can see this happening too.

Season 1 set the bar very high. Now they are under pressure to maintain that high quality every season.
 
J

Joni

Member
It does also have some interesting implications for Legends of Tomorrow: if they need more cross-overs, they would need to build to a full season set in the present day.
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
Joni said:
It does also have some interesting implications for Legends of Tomorrow: if they need more cross-overs, they would need to build to a full season set in the present day.
Click to expand...

It doesn't need to be a full season. The Legends can show whenever, wherever. Maybe all of Team Flash and Arrow need to go back in time, and need to take a trip on the Waverider to get there?

That said I do expect Legends to settle down in one time period and slow down a bit. Mystical present please.
 
W

Wingfan19

Unconfirmed Member
Legends should go the Agent Carter route and be the fill in show during the long winter hiatus of Flash and Arrow. Would also trim the episodes down to 10 or less which would just make the show tighter and look better overall.
 
J

- J - D -

Member
Tommy's death was the most significant one. It meant something and marked a transitioning point for Ollie as a character and the show as a whole.

Every other death that followed understandably failed to hit the same way. Then, once characters started coming back from death, and the you mix in the general idea of time travel, things went out the window and now I don't care. Now I follow the show because we're in the final stretch and it's not like I'm gonna quit now and throw a tantrum about it. Cheers!
 
M

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
I've got at least four or five of these that are relevant:
1500.jpg
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J

- J - D -

Member
^ Characters coming back from death is usually a cynical, profits driven move most of the time, and comic fans have criticized it all the time for a long time now. It's a flaw of the comics industry being so cyclical. If you want to dress it up as a tradition or standard instead, that's on you.

It's not a new thing introduced by viewers of superhero films/tv.
 
S

Sober

Member
Joni said:
I don't think it will matter quite that much, it is basically a big writing room, with both shows having quite some writers with experience on that staff. I think the effect will be more profound on Vixen, Keto was the main writer there. It is interesting to see that they are transferring two female staff members so maybe the Tomorrow writers room is a bit too male centric. Also interesting to see that those two started as writers, but that is absolutely not their title anymore. Keto has producer credit nowadays and Grainne is the executive story editor, so it really seems a matter of putting in experience into Tomorrow. In general, the writers rooms for these four shows are quite close, so people with a bit more knowledge on the other shows can easily walk through the hall.
Click to expand...
Titles don't mean anything except that your agent is good at negotiating most of the time.

If they want to do the yeoman's task of writing then they will write. They just happen to get paid more because of their title on top of a few more responsibilities.
 
P

Plasticine

Member
Tabby said:
Arrow has books now? Since when?
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It came out in February.

The first novel based on the hit Warner Bros. TV show Arrow. Oliver Queen returns from the dead to create his persona as the Arrow. Yet others work in the shadows to fashion his downfall… and plot the destruction of all he holds dear.

Also a survivor of Lian Yu, Slade Wilson’s ultimate goal is Oliver’s doom, and he recruits Isabel Rochev, whose hatred for the Queens knows no bounds. Brother Blood, while seeking to do what is right, also finds himself inextricably tangled in Wilson’s machinations.

This is the untold story behind the rise and fall of the Arrow.
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They really should have hired Wozzly to write it instead.
 
R

RellyRell28

Banned
Wingfan19 said:
Legends should go the Agent Carter route and be the fill in show during the long winter hiatus of Flash and Arrow. Would also trim the episodes down to 10 or less which would just make the show tighter and look better overall.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought it was gonna do at first. I mean it made the most sense. Oh well the show's cool regardless.
 
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