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Arrow Season 4 |OT| A Tale of Salt and Fire

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https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/4lik3l/spoilers_arrow_was_supposed_to_end_with_oliver/

Pretty interesting theory tbh. Sad!

Excuse the donald trump tweet style (I couldn't help myself), but I do remember Amell saying the plan was always for 5 seasons (towards the end of s1) and that they had a cohesive plan for how the flashbacks would wrap up and end at the s1 beginning by the end of a hypothetical season 5. Does seem like at some point they just completely abandoned this charted out plan or that the big plot points were always there, but the actual journey and little details just got bogged down in shit.


The real reason Olicity happened was that the story they were trying to tell in Season 3 required romantic angst, and Laurel would not be pining after Oliver while he was harboring her sister's murderer. Felicity was the only woman left in the cast who wasn't related to Oliver. That's why they went from "I love you, Felicity- PSYCH! That was a ploy to trick Slade. I'm still fixated on Laurel" in the Season 2 Finale to "Felicity is the love of my life!" in the season 3 premiere.

It's not a mandate from on high that came through mid season 3. It's the core of Season 3's arc that they couldn't execute any other way because she was the only character who could fit the role in the plot they were trying to run.
 
IDeviating from this, killing off Laurel, and just all around going off the reservation could explain some of the jumbled plot threads. All speculation though, from another perspective nothing is wrong with the show. From an alternative perspective the original plan was always this, and was always shit. Who knows.

Doesn't mean they can't change this with the imminent
Flashpoint/Crisis on Infinite CWs
. Sara can be THEE Black Canary if there's a problem with Laurel coming back.
 
I'm actually wondering if they looked at the Multiverse and JSA plots running on Flash and Legends and saw that as their "get out of jail free card" for the corner they wrote themselves into with the grave tease. After all, Pre-Crisis Black Canary was a transplant from Earth 2.

There had been enough fan complaints about Laurel being different from Black Canary that they may see this as an opportunity to change that.
 

MartyStu

Member
I'm actually wondering if they looked at the Multiverse and JSA plots running on Flash and Legends and saw that as their "get out of jail free card" for the corner they wrote themselves into with the grave tease. After all, Pre-Crisis Black Canary was a transplant from Earth 2.

There had been enough fan complaints about Laurel being different from Black Canary that they may see this as an opportunity to change that.

Which is why her getting offed never bothered me. Although to be honest, Olie was/is so ridiculously off from his his comic counterpart that I would not mind if he bit it either.

That said, I would LOVE a Eureka-style re-jiggering.
 

SiQDxZ2.png


That's only one Reddit thread, found within the first few comments. There's more than just a little sexism fueling the anti-Felicity and Arrow hate. Some of them are able to hide it better than others, but its still plenty apparent.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
That post doesn't explain anything. None of these shows plan things out as far in advance as people are asserting. It reads like someone looking for patterns and reason where there isn't any.

Think of it like the structure of a book. You have a beginning, middle, and end. Now apply that to the seasons. You have Season 1, Season 2, and Season 3. Season 2 for tv shows is almost always a fan favorite because they have nearly a blank slate but with characters who are already established. Everything is in place to shake things up. Season 3 is the end. Look at the S3 finale, it was Oliver driving off into the sunset with the hopes of a better life. You could have a series finale like that.

The problem that Season 3s usually run into on these genre shows is that you're going to start having relationships bump into each other, maybe for the second time. Usually S3 is the one that closes the door on a lot of character arcs that have been running through the show...except we need to come back for next season! They have to tightrope walk between having a huge build up with finality, and making people want to come back next year. It's almost doomed to be unsatisfying in some way. The end isn't an end.

And I highly highly highly doubt they're going to use Flash to erase things that have occurred over the past few season of Arrow. Namely because not everyone watches all the shows. Yeah, we'll get a big crossover. Might even introduce some huge elements like Supergirl, but they're not going to make it erase "Olicity" The shows don't work with enough synergy between them on a continuous basis to make something like that work. They're not comic books.
 

hengyu

Member
SiQDxZ2.png


That's only one Reddit thread, found within the first few comments. There's more than just a little sexism fueling the anti-Felicity and Arrow hate. Some of them are able to hide it better than others, but its still plenty apparent.

That's nasty, but I'm pretty sure they're making nasty sexist jokes because they hate Felicity, not the other way around. You don't have to be sexist to hate Felicity
 

KonradLaw

Member
Lol..Laurel isn't coming back. Killing her was good move for the show. She wrecked all the action scenes, she was regular, so she cost a lot and I doubt the writers are oblivious enoug to realize they never managed to make her character work.
Black Siren existing in that verse gives them option for a nice guest starring episode from time to time and that will be the best use of that character in Arrow or Flash.
 

xenist

Member
That's nasty, but I'm pretty sure they're making nasty sexist jokes because they hate Felicity, not the other way around. You don't have to be sexist to hate Felicity

No. This can't be it. Only rapist man-babies could hate such great writing.
 

Joni

Member
If you hate a woman because she gets time on screen, then you are a sexist. Just like people who hate games that star women.

https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/4lik3l/spoilers_arrow_was_supposed_to_end_with_oliver/

Pretty interesting theory tbh. Sad!

Excuse the donald trump tweet style (I couldn't help myself), but I do remember Amell saying the plan was always for 5 seasons (towards the end of s1) and that they had a cohesive plan for how the flashbacks would wrap up and end at the s1 beginning by the end of a hypothetical season 5. Does seem like at some point they just completely abandoned this charted out plan or that the big plot points were always there, but the actual journey and little details just got bogged down in shit.
No. It is complete bullshit. Nobody in Berlanti company thinks let's make a show and pull the plug after five years. They are still in the business for making money. And more importantly, Laurel and Oliver was wiped because they simply Weren't well received together. It takes huge Idiots to make a show and steer to the original ending no matter what. It is the how I met your Mother effect. It is also why they have stopped speaking about Laurel and Oliver as a couple since season 1.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/4lik3l/spoilers_arrow_was_supposed_to_end_with_oliver/

Pretty interesting theory tbh. Sad!

Excuse the donald trump tweet style (I couldn't help myself), but I do remember Amell saying the plan was always for 5 seasons (towards the end of s1) and that they had a cohesive plan for how the flashbacks would wrap up and end at the s1 beginning by the end of a hypothetical season 5. Does seem like at some point they just completely abandoned this charted out plan or that the big plot points were always there, but the actual journey and little details just got bogged down in shit.

Few shows plan out that far and the showrunners of Arrow have changed. Guggenheim is the only remaining one doing the day-to-day stuff. Wendy Mericle is a new addition and Andrew Kreisberg moved to The Flash.
 
SiQDxZ2.png


That's only one Reddit thread, found within the first few comments. There's more than just a little sexism fueling the anti-Felicity and Arrow hate. Some of them are able to hide it better than others, but its still plenty apparent.

Ugh. It´s not sexist to criticize shit characters or developments. The matter of the fact is that Ollicity relationship is garbage. It´s so shit, it´s bringing down the whole show down, because they run in circles, make shitty ass fake drama, and Felicity has became such a bad characer. She lost all her her endearing qualities that she had when the show started. Laurel was crap the first two seasons, so was Thea. It´s not sexist for watchers to call shit characters because the writers have been shit in depicting female characters. The only ones who was consistent was Sarah, and Ras Al Ghoul daughter, also huntress. I am glad they have stopped being regular, or their characters would have been ruined. Laurel finally became a great character, and these assholes sacrifice her for Ollicity garbage. So buzz off with calling everyone who does not like certain female characters as sexist, and stop these fictional allegations.
 

Joni

Member
lol
is this a joke?
If you think those reddit posts are anything else, than you are a lot more optimist than me. You can hate a character but if it gets to rape jokes and other sexist remarks, it takes a high amount of optimism to think it is not sexism. Considering that community I'm not.
 
I hate what this show has become, but insulting the cast isn't going to accomplish anything. I'm still a huge fan of Amell, Rickards, and well, all of them. I don't blame them for the material they've been given, and I certainly would never expect them to publicly go against a show that made their careers. I do hope they see past the ridiculous hate a lot of people spew on social media and see there is legitimate criticism to be had, and they can pass those concerns onto the writers and show runners so that the show can get back on track in a way that pleases most viewers.

Might as well through my hat into the ring as far as the sexism comments. There is certainly sexism ringing through many of those Reddit comments (that rape joke, yikes) but I don't think blanket statements condemning everyone as sexist for not liking how female characters are written is exactly accurate either. Arrow has had trouble handling its major female characters in the past, and it's only gotten worse over the past couple seasons with the toxicity of the Olicity relationship.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Ugh. It´s not sexist to criticize shit characters or developments. The matter of the fact is that Ollicity relationship is garbage. It´s so shit, it´s bringing down the whole show down, because they run in circles, make shitty ass fake drama, and Felicity has became such a bad characer. She lost all her her endearing qualities that she had when the show started. Laurel was crap the first two seasons, so was Thea. It´s not sexist for watchers to call shit characters because the writers have been shit in depicting female characters. The only ones who was consistent was Sarah, and Ras Al Ghoul daughter, also huntress. I am glad they have stopped being regular, or their characters would have been ruined. Laurel finally became a great character, and these assholes sacrifice her for Ollicity garbage. So buzz off with calling everyone who does not like certain female characters as sexist, and stop these fictional allegations.

What made Felicity such an endearing character in Season 1? She had a bit part, wore pencil skirts and fawned over Oliver. By your description the female characters aren't good when they're in relationships but are good once they learn martial arts. It's just a matter of taste. Not every component of the show is going to resonate with the entire audience. Some people like Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Some people don't.

If it was just this show, I'd be able to brush it off as a coincidence combined with a mix of poorly written female characters. But anyone who has seen the fandoms of any of these comics shows could see a pattern. People hate Barbra and Fish on Gotham, Iris on Flash, Karen Page on Daredevil, and on and on and on. There is something there. I'm not saying someone is sexist because they don't like the character. I'm saying that there is a strong undercurrent of sexism among these fandoms. There is a tendency to call for the death of female characters, far more than annoying male ones.

These shows can't be one thing all the time. It's soap opera with action elements, which is true to a lot of these ongoing comics. Secrets, relationship drama, people coming back from the dead...The CW didn't invent this stuff, it's how they've always been. I think that they do their best to not alienate the core audience. They can't really handle extremely heady subject matter because the shows are too light and teens watch. All the primary actors are adults, but these are far far from being adult dramas. I think that fans like to point out one element to blame for why a show isn't a good as it used to be, but this happens as shows age.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
The Felicity criticism gets into incredibly nitpicky, it's gotten to the point where if she's in any scene she becomes a target. Nobody really thinks the Oliver's son plot line was very good (do Olicity fans even?), but things like Felicity being blamed for the nukes or just having screen time certainly has an irrational if not sexist bent to it.

Few shows plan out that far and the showrunners of Arrow have changed. Guggenheim is the only remaining one doing the day-to-day stuff. Wendy Mericle is a new addition and Andrew Kreisberg moved to The Flash.

Guggenheim even splits his time between Legends and Arrow.

I do believe Kreisberg is still involved in overall outlining of Arrow, at least in season three.
 
but things like Felicity being blamed for the nukes or just having screen time certainly has an irrational if not sexist bent to it.

Yeah, people love to say "it's cause she's a bad character", but just like the new Ghostbusters, ignoring the bullshit doesn't mean it is not there.

Some posts in this thread are veering into "Sexism doesn't exist ever" territory.
 
That Oliver/Laurel talk is crazy, if they hadn't paired him up with Felicity, then he'd have probably stuck with Sara, if Laurel was the end goal then I don't understand why they would add the baggage of dating her sister again.
 
I love how Oliver's opinion on killing seems to change all of the time. Even in death Tommy is catching the L because Oliver can't even live up to the promise he made to him.

Arrow really needs to not introduce the season 5 big bad in the first episode because Darhk got old fast. The villain supposedly
having no powers
will be gladly accepted.

Stupidest thing in the entire season is still the team putting the idol back together and having the one missing piece in Diggle's apartment.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
I love how Oliver's opinion on killing seems to change all of the time. Even in death Tommy is catching the L because Oliver can't even live up to the promise he made to him.

Eh not really. Since mid season three he's been clearly "kill the big bads who can't be stopped, and nobody else".

Arrow really needs to not introduce the season 5 big bad in the first episode because Darhk got old fast. The villain supposedly
having no powers
will be gladly accepted.

I agree with you, but the bad news is it looks the next villain will be a series regular.
 
If you think those reddit posts are anything else, than you are a lot more optimist than me. You can hate a character but if it gets to rape jokes and other sexist remarks, it takes a high amount of optimism to think it is not sexism. Considering that community I'm not.

I haven't read the replies so I can't comment on them. My issue was with your generalization. I don't hate Felicity but some may for the exact same reasons I dislike her. They've completely ruined her for me due to the forced drama and then doubling down by unnecessarily including her useless mother.
 

Joni

Member
I haven't read the replies so I can't comment on them. My issue was with your generalization. I don't hate Felicity but some may for the exact same reasons I dislike her. They've completely ruined her for me due to the forced drama and then doubling down by unnecessarily including her useless mother.
Do you think a scene ruins an episode because she appeared and spoke like five words?
 
Eh not really. Since mid season three he's been clearly "kill the big bads who can't be stopped, and nobody else".



I agree with you, but the bad news is it looks the next villain will be a series regular.
And for some reason Merlyn is somehow still alive. I mean, for Gods sake, the producers need to realize that Barrowman just isn't worth it anymore.

Description for the season 5 guy sounds a little bad too. McDonough was great in the role and Darhk had legit great moments but he lost momentum fast. Both Arrow and Flash had lackluster big bads this season.
 

KonradLaw

Member
I love how Oliver's opinion on killing seems to change all of the time.
I think it was handled pretty well. He started Punisher-like, but then tried to be a hero. When it obviously didn't work he turned into reluctant killer, which seems like by far the most reasonable position for a superhero dealing with high levels of threats.
Oliver's stance on killing hasn't changed for over 1,5 season now, so it's pretty safe bet to say it has been cemented and isn't likely to change in the future. He has already arrived at where Green Arrow usually is as character. And I'm glad he did, because the no kill rule is such a pure shit and should have no place in any live action. It's one of the reasons why I simply can't take Matt Murdock seriously in live action form. No wonder he got completely eclipsed by a side character in his own damn show.
 
I think it was handled pretty well. He started Punisher-like, but then tried to be a hero. When it obviously didn't work he turned into reluctant killer, which seems like by far the most reasonable position for a superhero dealing with high levels of threats.
Oliver's stance on killing hasn't changed for over 1,5 season now, so it's pretty safe bet to say it has been cemented and isn't likely to change in the future. He has already arrived at where Green Arrow usually is as character. And I'm glad he did, because the no kill rule is such a pure shit and should have no place in any live action. It's one of the reasons why I simply can't take Matt Murdock seriously in live action form. No wonder he got completely eclipsed by a side character in his own damn show.
I don't like this bizarre twisted sense of morality they give him where he gets a small exception to one murder per season after the first one. I don't mind him killing, I have issues with the way they keep handling it.

Also I gotta disagree with him being where Green Arrow usually is as a character. Oliver cracks like one extra joke an episode and that's it, he still mopes a lot over. No where near the lighthearted comic-accurate character. Which would be fine if we weren't beaten over the head before season 4 over how 'OLIVER IS GONNA BE JUST LIKE HIS COMIC SELF'.
 

KonradLaw

Member
I don't like this bizarre twisted sense of morality they give him where he gets a small exception to one murder per season after the first one. I don't mind him killing, I have issues with the way they keep handling it.

Why? He only kills when he absolutely has to. How is that twisted sense of morality? We probably could use couple more kills during the season, but this year has been so much focused on Darkh there wasn't a lot of space for other people to get killed. Also, in S3 he killed more than just Ra's. He also put that poor fake Diggle down.

Also I gotta disagree with him being where Green Arrow usually is as a character.

I meant in terms of no-kill rules, not the character himself :D Green Arrow in comic has traditionally been somebody who tends to avoid killing, but when pushed he has no problems straight up murdering if he has too.
 
Why? He only kills when he absolutely has to. How is that twisted sense of morality? We probably could use couple more kills during the season, but this year has been so much focused on Darkh there wasn't a lot of space for other people to get killed. Also, in S3 he killed more than just Ra's. He also put that poor fake Diggle down.



I meant in terms of no-kill rules, not the character himself :D Green Arrow in comic has traditionally been somebody who tends to avoid killing, but when pushed he has no problems straight up murdering if he has too.
Because Ollie just kills a big bad, and not other villains around who are causing damage by being alive. It was shown once when he killed that one-shot villain because he was about to kill Felicity in season 2 then never shown again.

Take Merlyn for example. Ollie should have put an arrow in his head the moment he showed up, instead of the constant "IT WOULD RUIN THEA SO MUCH BECAUSE HE'S HER FATHER" mindset despite it being made clear a million times before Thea would not give a shit if Malcolm died, especially when Malcolm literally made it clear he values his life above Thea's.

I misread you then, I apologize for that. Though I still don't get their constant promises only for Ollie to turn out more or less his past self.
 

Joni

Member
Reading the description for the 'big bad' for next year, maybe they should not have him be the big bad. Have it be like a Punisher/Huntress like character who is a vendetta run course until the guy that caused that course appears.

That is the difference.
 
Reading the description for the 'big bad' for next year, maybe they should not have him be the big bad. Have it be like a Punisher/Huntress like character who is a vendetta run course until the guy that caused that course appears.
I wonder if the writers could fix Helena if they brought her back for a recurring role. Making her an anti-villain who then became a full out villain was a terrible direction to take her. They butchered the character more or less, and it does seem like they simply pushed her well past the point of redemption.

Hell just bring in Jessica De Gouw as this new character Belena Hertinelli/the Hunter and I'll buy it.
 

Joni

Member
I wonder if the writers could fix Helena if they brought her back for a recurring role. Making her an anti-villain who then became a full out villain was a terrible direction to take her. They butchered the character more or less, and it does seem like they simply pushed her well past the point of redemption.

Hell just bring in Jessica De Gouw as this new character Belena Hertinelli/the Hunter and I'll buy it.

I feel the crying scene in prison was their way of bringing her back in line.
 
If someone is that into hating a character without her even doing anything, that is simply not healthy anymore.
Arrow fanbase is pretty big on such a mentality. I'd say Laurel and Sara were the biggest contenders for such unfair hate (often just because they were a threat to the Olicity ship).
 
Ugh. It´s not sexist to criticize shit characters or developments. The matter of the fact is that Ollicity relationship is garbage. It´s so shit, it´s bringing down the whole show down, because they run in circles, make shitty ass fake drama, and Felicity has became such a bad characer. She lost all her her endearing qualities that she had when the show started. Laurel was crap the first two seasons, so was Thea. It´s not sexist for watchers to call shit characters because the writers have been shit in depicting female characters. The only ones who was consistent was Sarah, and Ras Al Ghoul daughter, also huntress. I am glad they have stopped being regular, or their characters would have been ruined. Laurel finally became a great character, and these assholes sacrifice her for Ollicity garbage. So buzz off with calling everyone who does not like certain female characters as sexist, and stop these fictional allegations.

It is entirely possible to dislike a female character, I'll give you that. I disliked Laurel a great deal. The issue comes when that hatred becomes something dark and ugly. There's definitely nothing "fictional" about the sexism that's a part of the anti-Felicity movement. Unless, of course, you consider rape fantasies perfectly acceptable. Then I don't know what to tell you.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Take Merlyn for example. Ollie should have put an arrow in his head the moment he showed up, instead of the constant "IT WOULD RUIN THEA SO MUCH BECAUSE HE'S HER FATHER" mindset despite it being made clear a million times before Thea would not give a shit if Malcolm died, especially when Malcolm literally made it clear he values his life above Thea's.
Oh, come on. The only reccuring villain he refuses to kill is Malcolm. And he still is Thea's father, Tommy's father, one of Oliver's father figures and actually was an dependable ally couple times.
I do think she should have put Malcolm down long time ago, but let's not make it seem Malcom is the rule instead of exception.
 
Laurel should've been more capable of holding her own from day one in terms of fighting instead of what they did with her where at first she seemed to have at least a good base but then became utterly useless, it would've been interesting had Ted Grant been in the picture much earlier on than what we got with the bullshit waste of time in season three with some dumb potential love interest plot they wanted but went absolutely no where because miscast actor they hired (smartly) jumped ship to be a regular on another show after only appearing in four episodes and never heard from or mentioned again. It would've been interesting had their lives mirrored each other somewhat over those five years.

Malcolm should be dead, straight up deceased, shit is worse than the Joker at this point because at least the Joker gets locked up from time to time even if he always eventually escapes.

The "teen (or relationship) drama" stuff is always going to be there I'm afraid, there's really no escaping it, it's been the WB's bread and butter since Dawson's Creek, which Greg Berlanti was a producer on for a short while and in turned the CW's when WB and UPN merged. It would just be nice if it were written better... A lot better. It's not as if there aren't already shows on the CW that do a immensely better, more mature job with it. These Berlanti DC shows just aren't that good with handling it, especially Arrow when it comes to the "lead" relationship and the reliance on conflict. At least Arrow has pretty much run out of female characters to fridge so there's that. I mean, they're not going to nearly kill Thea again, right? ... Right? Then again, I guess Diggle needs something new now that the HIVE story is over... Oh dear. RIP Lyla.


I maybe it's because I haven't looked beyond the Gotham OT but I haven't seen any hate for Barbara since they made her a more interesting (or okay, insane) or at least more entertaining character in the second half of the first season.
 

Sober

Member
That post doesn't explain anything. None of these shows plan things out as far in advance as people are asserting. It reads like someone looking for patterns and reason where there isn't any.

Think of it like the structure of a book. You have a beginning, middle, and end. Now apply that to the seasons. You have Season 1, Season 2, and Season 3. Season 2 for tv shows is almost always a fan favorite because they have nearly a blank slate but with characters who are already established. Everything is in place to shake things up. Season 3 is the end. Look at the S3 finale, it was Oliver driving off into the sunset with the hopes of a better life. You could have a series finale like that.

The problem that Season 3s usually run into on these genre shows is that you're going to start having relationships bump into each other, maybe for the second time. Usually S3 is the one that closes the door on a lot of character arcs that have been running through the show...except we need to come back for next season! They have to tightrope walk between having a huge build up with finality, and making people want to come back next year. It's almost doomed to be unsatisfying in some way. The end isn't an end.

And I highly highly highly doubt they're going to use Flash to erase things that have occurred over the past few season of Arrow. Namely because not everyone watches all the shows. Yeah, we'll get a big crossover. Might even introduce some huge elements like Supergirl, but they're not going to make it erase "Olicity" The shows don't work with enough synergy between them on a continuous basis to make something like that work. They're not comic books.
I agree with the assessment that a TV show is always going to be an imperfect medium. Things during production can change suddenly, or audience reacts differently to how you think and sometimes a guest star just is good enough you have to bring them on and sometimes you have blindspots to certain aspects of the show you still keep on. So you have to just make do sometimes, especially if you are doing the 22 or so episode season runs.

But honestly I think planning is still a problem for these shows. Like I feel like they don't even agree on vague details until it comes down to it sometimes. Like who was in the grave this season. If they knew from day 1, yeah, keep it a secret but then you can use that fact to spend more time developing Laurel for those episodes before she's taken away.

It's like the finale tries to cram it into us - everyone misses Laurel and they saw her as the best of them. I don't necessarily agree with that but okay, they tried. I wish they tried harder by making her the glue that held Team Arrow together through most of S4, in spite of things like Oliver and Diggle's fractured friendship, or Thea going crazy post-Lazarus pit. I mean, those things were there and Laurel was there to lend helping hands to those arcs, but it's just that maybe I don't think the show really tried too hard with them. They didn't have a clue they were gonna kill her until it was maybe a bit too late to do anything but work around the extra episode after her death.

Which is a shame because something like that could've easily worked in their favour.

I think overall on a per-episode basis Arrow definitely beat The Flash this year, if we're just going by what was more enjoyable to watch. But I think both shows kinda fell flat in the overall longer-term stuff. They need to work on that coming up. Arrow especially in the flashbacks. This year was inconsequential. The sad thing is that Arrow probably has a better thematic arc because they have those flashbacks, but they've been wholly ignored and feel like just random plot that happens and we watch piecemeal instead of it contributing towards, well, Oliver's development over the course of the show. We're supposed to be - at least in the first five years - his change from frat boy to survivalist to vigilante to hero. I feel like yeah you don't need to map it all out but I got the impression that they didn't even really squeeze in much effort this year. Like it was worse than S3's, by a country mile.
 

Joni

Member
Malcolm should be dead, straight up deceased, shit is worse than the Joker at this point because at least the Joker gets locked up from time to time even if he always eventually escapes.
That is the biggest disappointment. Oliver beats Dahrk, Diggle beats Andy, and Thea just lets Malcolm live...
 
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