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Sober

Member
Lot of people think that he should be Asian American specifically; I don't particularly care. Marvel TV (and ABC itself) does a pretty insanely good job of representation. It really bugs the crap out of me that modern representation basically is an extension of identity politics and is only assumed to go skin deep. There are black women that I relate to way the hell better than Indian males.
For the most part I agree. I don't have a horse in the Iron Fist race (no pun intended) myself, though I assume the ultimate reason - at least for me - to have better representation is just to have more positive portrayals and role models moving forward.

Also I should assume you relate more to black women over Indian men because the former is more "American" (for the lack of a better term, I supposed integrated maybe?) or more like you versus the latter (which I assume is shorthand for integrating). Correct me if I'm wrong.

I also don't like the entire concept of "well my power fantasy is more morally / progressively appropriate than yours". That smacks of hypocrisy.

Marvel TV has been pretty damn on point when it comes to being diverse and grabbing the right actor / actress for the role. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt rather than racial politicking away.

There's also a very good chance that Asians are going to overrepresent in Hollywood within the next five years due to Asia being a bigger market for Hollywood movies than Europe + US. (Hollywood movies make more money in Asia than they do in the US + Europe for the first time ever in 2015).
Yeah overall I'm mostly been happy with performances from Marvel stuff aside from a few performances. I'm more worried about what exactly Iron Fist is supposed to be about, despite Jessica Jones being a welcome breath of fresh air from dudes flexing and punching other dudes yelling MY CITY and gritting their teeth.

Also are there any articles about Hollywood in Asian markets? I actually haven't head anything on that but if you say 5 years that is like a pretty drastic sea change if you think that they can turn Asian representation around super quick, even if you consider the current roles for east/southeast Asian actors right now and which ones headline their own shows or those working behind the scenes in important areas.
 

zeemumu

Member
I actually think as for the story; being hispanic, black, or white makes a ton of sense. The general Iron Fist character story is that he's a native of the US who ends up living in an Asian world for some time, then comes back and finds himself a fish out of water in his native land. The difference between culture and race is kind of what makes the character the character - and hispanics have been sort of screwed when it comes to MCU. :D

Though one of the main traits of the character is that he has super white guilt issues, since he grew up the son of a billionaire, etc etc, his core character motivation is trying to make up for his privilege. So there is that.



Lot of people think that he should be Asian American specifically; I don't particularly care. Marvel TV (and ABC itself) does a pretty insanely good job of representation. It really bugs the crap out of me that modern representation basically is an extension of identity politics and is only assumed to go skin deep. There are black women that I relate to way the hell better than Indian males.

I also don't like the entire concept of "well my power fantasy is more morally / progressively appropriate than yours". That smacks of hypocrisy.

Marvel TV has been pretty damn on point when it comes to being diverse and grabbing the right actor / actress for the role. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt rather than racial politicking away.

There's also a very good chance that Asians are going to overrepresent in Hollywood within the next five years due to Asia being a bigger market for Hollywood movies than Europe + US. (Hollywood movies make more money in Asia than they do in the US + Europe for the first time ever in 2015).



I think a good chunk of us are. I'm from the Midwest originally, fwiw.


It's mostly a focus on under representation in the MCU, not so much for Marvel movies in general. X-Men took most of them (Lady Deathstrike, Spike(?), Silver Samurai, the entire cast of The Wolverine except for Wolverine pretty much, etc.). The ABC show has a few (one of them is Mulan and I think that's freakin' awesome). Daredevil seemed to be alluding to The Hand a few times so there will be some stuff in there.

Do you think there would be backlash if they chose Iron Fist to be asian because it would be perpetuating the stereotype that all asian people know martial arts?
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
For the most part I agree. I don't have a horse in the Iron Fist race (no pun intended) myself, though I assume the ultimate reason - at least for me - to have better representation is just to have more positive portrayals and role models moving forward.

Also I should assume you relate more to black women over Indian men because the former is more "American" (for the lack of a better term, I supposed integrated maybe?) or more like you versus the latter (which I assume is shorthand for integrating). Correct me if I'm wrong.


Yeah overall I'm mostly been happy with performances from Marvel stuff aside from a few performances. I'm more worried about what exactly Iron Fist is supposed to be about, despite Jessica Jones being a welcome breath of fresh air from dudes flexing and punching other dudes yelling MY CITY and gritting their teeth.

Also are there any articles about Hollywood in Asian markets? I actually haven't head anything on that but if you say 5 years that is like a pretty drastic sea change if you think that they can turn Asian representation around super quick, even if you consider the current roles for east/southeast Asian actors right now and which ones headline their own shows or those working behind the scenes in important areas.

1) it's more that I relate more to character traits and personality rather than gender or race. A nerdy pop culture referencing black woman scientist is someone I will relate to more than generic Indian dude. I can relate to culture; which is different to me than race.

2) I'll try to find some articles tomorrow at work - but it mostly comes down to Hollywood trying to maximize money. things change so fast now that I expect it to go from 0-100 in a flash. See movies being made after frozen, for instance. :-D

It's mostly a focus on under representation in the MCU, not so much for Marvel movies in general. X-Men took most of them (Lady Deathstrike, Spike(?), Silver Samurai, the entire cast of The Wolverine except for Wolverine pretty much, etc.). The ABC show has a few (one of them is Mulan and I think that's freakin' awesome). Daredevil seemed to be alluding to The Hand a few times so there will be some stuff in there.

Do you think there would be backlash if they chose Iron Fist to be asian because it would be perpetuating the stereotype that all asian people know martial arts?

X men does have a lot of the good minority characters alas.

There will be backlash because no single character can be all things to all people, IMO.
 

suzu

Member
I've already posted a few times in the other Iron Fist threads, so I don't feel like posting in this new one. lol

In short: Danny Rand as any minority is fine with me, although an Asian-American would be nice.
 

vern

Member
vern, those are wonderful photos!!!

Thanks YesNo... I regularly post in the photogaf threads that pop up. Usually around China but also other parts of Asia and Australia/USA... and who knows where else in the next year!

Here are some other recent photos from Beijing. Looking forward to getting back to Shanghai in a couple of days, but Beijing has been a pretty nice city for pictures when it hasn't been too cold/polluted.


Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by
Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by Eric, on Flickr
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Thanks YesNo... I regularly post in the photogaf threads that pop up. Usually around China but also other parts of Asia and Australia/USA... and who knows where else in the next year!

Here are some other recent photos from Beijing. Looking forward to getting back to Shanghai in a couple of days, but Beijing has been a pretty nice city for pictures when it hasn't been too cold/polluted.


Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by
Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Beijing by Eric, on Flickr

Fantastic shots.

I want that puppy, btw.
 
“Asians are minorities whenever it’s useful for people to frame them as such."

Very true.

I may not be a protestor at heart but I feel as though more Asians and Asian Americans should be for more racial equality instead of saying, "yeah I guess we are allies with other people of color but since we are more privileged than them I don't see how this benefits us. We should sit down and cheer them on!"

"...We are not tokens. We are ourselves self-determining people. We do a disservice to ourselves by not wanting to make waves.”

True.

We've been fighting this war with many other minorities but today, many Asians and Asian Americans tend to stay quiet, lay low, focus on your studies, and to keep to themselves (guilty of this). Don't go out there and try to start something that isn't our battle. We have it so good compared to a, b, or c. Why should we stick our necks out for them? That's something I've heard repeated alot from my friends and family.

Sometimes I look at them and tell them, "you know we are people of color too, right? We have a say in this." Again, I'm no activist/protestor but I'm glad Asians/Asian Americans are starting to shed some more light with their involvements with BLM and racial equality. For them, more power to you. It also warms my heart that more and more Asians in general are learning to speak up, take different classes and choosing non-stereotyped career choices, and making a difference for the world be it politics or media.

As much as I hate to say this but.... It's semi-true that some Asians/Asian Americans don't face the same issues other minorities face and some Asians/AAs believe that they shouldn't get involved. Hence them believing in the Model Minority myth so much. It goes back to my first point, it doesn't involve me so I don't see the point of joining these protests but good for them.

I also wonder how many are Asians from Asia and how many are Asians from America? Would that also help explain why there is such a disconnect between Asians and other minorities when it comes to protests?

Sorry that my post confirms it for you jmood88 :( I sadly, wasn't brought up to protest and say anything. I'm a pretty quiet Asian that would rather watch from the sidelines :( I should speak up more but I suffer from anxiety and mild depression and ashtma so I tend to stay quiet.
 

jmood88

Member
Very true.

I may not be a protestor at heart but I feel as though more Asians and Asian Americans should be for more racial equality instead of saying, "yeah I guess we are allies with other people of color but since we are more privileged than them I don't see how this benefits us. We should sit down and cheer them on!"



True.

We've been fighting this war with many other minorities but today, many Asians and Asian Americans tend to stay quiet, lay low, focus on your studies, and to keep to themselves (guilty of this). Don't go out there and try to start something that isn't our battle. We have it so good compared to a, b, or c. Why should we stick our necks out for them? That's something I've heard repeated alot from my friends and family.

Sometimes I look at them and tell them, "you know we are people of color too, right? We have a say in this." Again, I'm no activist/protestor but I'm glad Asians/Asian Americans are starting to shed some more light with their involvements with BLM and racial equality. For them, more power to you. It also warms my heart that more and more Asians in general are learning to speak up, take different classes and choosing non-stereotyped career choices, and making a difference for the world be it politics or media.

As much as I hate to say this but.... It's semi-true that some Asians/Asian Americans don't face the same issues other minorities face and some Asians/AAs believe that they shouldn't get involved. Hence them believing in the Model Minority myth so much. It goes back to my first point, it doesn't involve me so I don't see the point of joining these protests but good for them.

I also wonder how many are Asians from Asia and how many are Asians from America? Would that also help explain why there is such a disconnect between Asians and other minorities when it comes to protests?

Sorry that my post confirms it for you jmood88 :( I sadly, wasn't brought up to protest and say anything. I'm a pretty quiet Asian that would rather watch from the sidelines :( I should speak up more but I suffer from anxiety and mild depression and ashtma so I tend to stay quiet.

It's fine if you're not the protesting type and I don't expect everyone to be extra-militant, I'm just speaking generally. I've been a member of both black and Asian groups while in college and the Asian groups will rarely collaborate with non-Asian groups or show any kind of support for anything that happens outside of their own bubble and, as someone who walks in both worlds, it's irritating.
 
Kalbi/Galbi Fries for lunch
b7jKYdzl.jpg
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
It's fine if you're not the protesting type and I don't expect everyone to be extra-militant, I'm just speaking generally. I've been a member of both black and Asian groups while in college and the Asian groups will rarely collaborate with non-Asian groups or show any kind of support for anything that happens outside of their own bubble and, as someone who walks in both worlds, it's irritating.

FWIW; when I was in college I would normally protest with them - I grew up as a hick with basically my best friends being from the ghetto (relative term, admittedly, seeing as where I grew up), and my parents went from being super racist towards blacks to themselves now helping them actively. That was the early-mid 2000s. (We also had Iraq to galvanize us, and my school has a strong social justice bend, thankfully)

But the illiberal and authoritative / thought police level of current demands going on terrifies me, especially because they seem completely oblivious to the fact that, when it becomes OK to demand cultural sensitivity classes (which, of course, won't include asians, because, well, as Mizzou protestors pointed out, asian-americans are part of "white media"); or get people fired for saying things that are "wrong"...that shit is going to get turned on minorities so fucking fast their heads will spin. They are legitimately digging their own grave, and are completely unaware of it.

(www.thedemands.org)

To borrow the popehat.

https://popehat.com/2015/10/06/this-royal-throne-of-feels-this-sheltered-isle-this-england/

And it teaches a few lessons.

First, if you thought that the norms you created wouldn't be used against your "own side," you're fools. It is apparently your theory that the law is sexist, racist, and every other -ist, driven by privilege and wealth, and that free speech norms serve to protect rich white guys — yet somehow exceptions to free speech norm will be imposed in an egalitarian, progressive way. That is almost indescribably moronic. Go sit in the corner and think about what you have done.

TL;DR - in these scenarios, I think what they're protesting for currently is insane, and is liable to hurt all minorities way more than help us.
 
Ignorant of me to say this but.... It is sort of all about money. If you have the money, they can put aside all the stupid racist shit. The Boondocks made fun of it and it's sort of true in my view.

Edit: yeah I take it back but I'll leave the original just to show how dumb my opinion was.
 

jmood88

Member
FWIW; when I was in college I would normally protest with them - I grew up as a hick with basically my best friends being from the ghetto (relative term, admittedly, seeing as where I grew up), and my parents went from being super racist towards blacks to themselves now helping them actively. That was the early-mid 2000s. (We also had Iraq to galvanize us, and my school has a strong social justice bend, thankfully)

But the illiberal and authoritative / thought police level of current demands going on terrifies me, especially because they seem completely oblivious to the fact that, when it becomes OK to demand cultural sensitivity classes (which, of course, won't include asians, because, well, as Mizzou protestors pointed out, asian-americans are part of "white media"); or get people fired for saying things that are "wrong"...that shit is going to get turned on minorities so fucking fast their heads will spin. They are legitimately digging their own grave, and are completely unaware of it.

(www.thedemands.org)

To borrow the popehat.

https://popehat.com/2015/10/06/this-royal-throne-of-feels-this-sheltered-isle-this-england/



TL;DR - in these scenarios, I think what they're protesting for currently is insane, and is liable to hurt all minorities way more than help us.
The popehat thing you quoted doesn't have much to do with the situation in this country and if Asian cultural classes are ignored it's because, as the article I posted states, asian students tend to isolate themselves from other minority groups. If they don't participate in meetings or protests, then they can't expect to be included in calls for reform.
Ignorant of me to say this but.... It is sort of all about money. If you have the money, they can put aside all the stupid racist shit. The Boondocks made fun of it and it's sort of true in my view.
Huh? The Boondocks never suggested that money ends racism and we've seen time and time again that money has absolutely nothing with helping combat racism.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
The popehat thing you quoted doesn't have much to do with the situation in this country and if Asian cultural classes are ignored it's because, as the article I posted states, asian students tend to isolate themselves from other minority groups. If they don't participate in meetings or protests, then they can't expect to be included in calls for reform.

Huh? The Boondocks never suggested that money ends racism and we've seen time and time again that money has absolutely nothing with helping combat racism.

The popehat link is more of "so, this thing you are advocating for, it exists in other countries, and this is how it gets used. Be careful what you wish for." Basically; what they are advocating for will most certainly get turned on us and used on us, and we will throw hypocritical hissy fits, because we're the one who opened the door for its use. Schools before college can already do what Britain does in terms of free speech, and I really don't want colleges to start doing the same things.

As a college sports fan - I 100% believe that the NCAA (which would be these same college administrators) are completely incapable and unwilling to do anything in a fair and just way when it comes to their students. (See "amateurism")

W/R/T to lack of engagement; True. Bit of a chicken and egg issue though at this point - asian-americans don't want to engage because they don't think they'll get anything out of it, and they don't get anything out of it because they don't engage.

There is also a cultural thing that Blooded points out that I think is true.

Also - slightly controversial statement coming here.

Hrm...trying to figure out how to say this, but failing at all the words. Basically; growing up not in a major city, and without many fellow Indian-Americans around me; I think my expectations for this country and how it treats asian-americans might be significantly lower than if I had grown up somewhere where I did not feel like I was a super tiny minority. Honestly - I don't ever expect things to be catered towards me, I just want them not to actively try to screw me.

Also, the Boondocks = win. On the tier under Calvin & Hobbes, Far Side, and Foxtrot, but still damn awesome and damn on point.
 

jmood88

Member
The popehat link is more of "so, this thing you are advocating for, it exists in other countries, and this is how it gets used. Be careful what you wish for." Basically; what they are advocating for will most certainly get turned on us and used on us, and we will throw hypocritical hissy fits, because we're the one who opened the door for its use. Schools before college can already do what Britain does in terms of free speech, and I really don't want colleges to start doing the same things.
Asking administration to take reports of racism on campus seriously or demanding that schools do more to include minority-centric classes to make campuses more inclusive cannot be turned around and used against anyone.

As a college sports fan - I 100% believe that the NCAA (which would be these same college administrators) are completely incapable and unwilling to do anything in a fair and just way when it comes to their students. (See "amateurism")

W/R/T to lack of engagement; True. Bit of a chicken and egg issue though at this point - asian-americans don't want to engage because they don't think they'll get anything out of it, and they don't get anything out of it because they don't engage.
Too many Asian American students have bought into the model minority myth and don't see themselves as part of the same minority group that includes black and Latino students. They think that they've "made it" and don't need to get involved with pushback against racist policies, which is a shame and only leads to them being used as cover for racist nonsense. You talk about the non-Asian students being shortsighted with their demands but the people who are really being shortsighted are the Asian students who seem to believe that they're above it all and will not have to face the same discrimination as other minorities.

There is also a cultural thing that Blooded points out that I think is true.

Also - slightly controversial statement coming here.

Hrm...trying to figure out how to say this, but failing at all the words. Basically; growing up not in a major city, and without many fellow Indian-Americans around me; I think my expectations for this country and how it treats asian-americans might be significantly lower than if I had grown up somewhere where I did not feel like I was a super tiny minority. Honestly - I don't ever expect things to be catered towards me, I just want them not to actively try to screw me.
Black people have been in this country since the very beginning and have never had things catered to them, so I'm not sure what you're implying. Demanding that the administration, which their tuition pays for, step up and address systemic racial issues isn't asking for special treatment.

I agree that there's going to be a backlash (see: feminism now, future of "sjw" except not just limited to the internet).

Seems disingenuous for some people to say things like, "well, Asians don't try to include themselves so we should exclude them." It's a stupid cycle. "I've never felt like other minorities gave a shit about me, so why should I give a shit about them?" .. from both sides. My first memories of discrimination were from another minority, not from "the white oppressors."
It's not disingenuous at all. If you see a group that actively avoids other minorities and includes members that are actively hostile towards your point of view, why would you include them? Black and Latino students have no reason to include Asian students in any kind of call for reform when Asian students refuse to align themselves with other minority groups.

Honestly I hope to see a greater pan-Asian movement in the US. Asian Americans speaking up about Asian American issues. Asian solidarity.

Not that it should be limited to this, but rather I'd like to see that happen first before we start worrying about adding "the Asian vote" to the discussion. There's no strength in a house divided.
This is ridiculous. You can't ever see any kind of Asian solidarity if Asian groups refuse to participate in the process of getting things changed. Maybe it's because my Japanese relatives participated in the civil rights movement and worked with the Black Panthers in California but that kind of attitude seems extremely selfish and very shortsighted.
 

I am going to post more but I'm watching my Flash lol

Alright another Flash episode done. Now to wait for next year!

Back to the topic at hand -

I think what cybit really wanted to say was that he has a skewed view on this whole issue because he wasn't raised in an area filled with his ethnicity. When he says he doesn't ever expect things to cater to him he means having all these meaningful rallies, protests, and movements that pertains to him.

So in his view, he sees it as what can benefit him. Again, it's a harsh view and one that many other Asians follow. If it doesn't include me or my ethnicity, why should I give more care for a, b, c, or d? Many Asians feel as though all these movements will only worsen the state of affairs. Correct me if I'm wrong Cybit, I don't want to be putting words in your mouth dude.

As to what bunny is talking about..... She's talking about all sides of the issue. We aren't taken seriously by all sides. Even if we do, nobody will bat an eye and wonder why we are helping these movements and then ignore us like usual. No matter how loud our voices may be, it'll always be drowned out. When nobody wants us on their side, who is there to turn to? Other Asians? We can't because we all don't face the same issues.

To at least make more people aware that Asians do face serious issues in the U.S., we are going to need to at least recognize that we face these issues. Which nobody wants to. When we want to, everybody will be shouting from their rooftops that the issues we face are so minor that people shouldn't be helping us face and address these issues. It's infuriating tbh. It's a sad state of affairs for Asian American issues.

We want to help, we do but when we aren't needed by either side what is there to do? Which goes back to what bunny said - we should at least form some kind of governance, rallies, and movements that pertain to all Asians and not just East, South, and South East Asians. But we can't since nobody takes us seriously and mostly everybody sees us as the model minority. It's on both sides. Other minorities will say we don't face said and said issues and that we shouldn't involve ourselves with these movements since we have it so good compared to other minorities.

Why, why are you helping them? What they are suffering from doesn't apply to Asians so why join them? Well.... Asians are a minority and we do face racial injustice just like our friends. We want to help to get rid of said racial injustices so that there won't be anymore or at least to minimize these inequalities we all face regardless of our skin color, gender, and language.
 

suzu

Member
Too many Asian American students have bought into the model minority myth and don't see themselves as part of the same minority group that includes black and Latino students. They think that they've "made it" and don't need to get involved with pushback against racist policies, which is a shame and only leads to them being used as cover for racist nonsense. You talk about the non-Asian students being shortsighted with their demands but the people who are really being shortsighted are the Asian students who seem to believe that they're above it all and will not have to face the same discrimination as other minorities.

I think this is closer to the truth. The whole bootstrapping thing.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Asking administration to take reports of racism on campus seriously or demanding that schools do more to include minority-centric classes to make campuses more inclusive cannot be turned around and used against anyone.

You can't see a world where Bob Jones University mandates all non southern students to take "Confederate History"? I mean, you need to have cultural awareness, right?

Or when Notre Dame or a Catholic university forces students to go to a religion class and "understand the biblical calling to stop abortion" happens to be a topic of discussion? (Pro-Tip; this one happened to me in the early 2000s).

You can't define "minority" or "inclusive" or "cultural awareness" narrow enough to avoid those without becoming incredibly biased in the process (as well as completely unable to adapt to newer situations, for instance, LGBT students in the last 30 years). Or, to put it more succinctly - who do you think is going to end up defining those terms when push comes to shove? Disempowered students, or the same people in power who haven't done shit besides give lip service for the last 50 years?

In our lifetimes we went from the USPS suspending delivery of a major magazine because it brought up the concept of gay marriage as possible (1960s) to a federal law being bipartisan-ly passed 20 years ago banning gay marriage to gay marriage being legalized across the board. The reason that happens is that while we can enact all sorts of policies and laws - we couldn't stop people from talking about it. People couldn't pressure colleges into cancelling talks by gay marriage advocates.

What happens if, in 1980, the majority brings up the concept of gay marriage being "immoral" and "wrong", and then universities, in accordance with the progressive thought at the time, force LGBT students to go to "cultural awareness" classes? What happens when they decide that it is "wrong" to talk about gay marriage and ban it as an item of conversation? No more talks about it at colleges, because it's "wrong".

At some point, all of us are going to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to admit it; but at some point, we will all be those old racist / sexist / ignorant people. I do not want the ability to codify our beliefs in terms of canceling speech in any way. Because we will, at some point, inevitably screw people who deserve better. (Demographic shifts will have our generation holding disproportional political power as we get older, since we're an abnormally large generation that are currently having less kids than our parents. Similar to how the older baby boomers have a ton of power because of their population size, when we are 55+, we will be the same way most likely)

Too many Asian American students have bought into the model minority myth and don't see themselves as part of the same minority group that includes black and Latino students. They think that they've "made it" and don't need to get involved with pushback against racist policies, which is a shame and only leads to them being used as cover for racist nonsense. You talk about the non-Asian students being shortsighted with their demands but the people who are really being shortsighted are the Asian students who seem to believe that they're above it all and will not have to face the same discrimination as other minorities.

Oh, we will face discrimination. No doubt. Chinese and South Asians are the ones who will feel the shift in the next 10-20 years, especially if China asserts itself as a US level economic superpower. With the rise in immigration and the loss of industry - you will see something closer to how hispanics are treated in the US.

But I can't help but notice that the local people in power in this country found a great many ways to screw black people in this country over and over even after the passing of the Civil Rights Act. After the Civil War. After the VRA. This falls under the Popehat quote - if you institute laws without changing who is interpreting or enforcing the laws - it's going to backfire just like it did every other time. Honestly, protesting at colleges and having them do these minor things to fight systemic racism feels like taking tylenol when you have a cold and assuming Tylenol will kill the cold. You can't try to shift everyone's cultural norms all at once just at college. I get that it feels like a little progress - but it feels like they're yelling at the symptoms rather than the root cause.

Black people have been in this country since the very beginning and have never had things catered to them, so I'm not sure what you're implying.

That's the part of it - as a first generation immigrant, I suspect I don't have that same sense of ownership that folks who have had their families born and raised in the US have probably. It's nothing against anyone - just that it may not be as big of a deal to us because we don't have that same strong sense of ownership and belonging that might come from a third or fourth or fifth generation American. Most of us are either first or second generation immigrants. I could see the shift happening as our kids and grandkids feel more ownership in the US.

This is ridiculous. You can't ever see any kind of Asian solidarity if Asian groups refuse to participate in the process of getting things changed. Maybe it's because my Japanese relatives participated in the civil rights movement and worked with the Black Panthers in California but that kind of attitude seems extremely selfish and very shortsighted.

And I suspect the difference in how this would get implemented lies in where people grew up. When you grow up in a red area; it's very, very easy to see how this gets whipped around on folks. Having lived on the coasts for 8 years now; the lack of understanding of how the other side lives is real, and scary. I love my friends out in Seattle; but it is unfathomable to them that people would vote for Republicans, and be against gun control, and not understand how to be culturally understanding. Then the scorn, and the elitism, and the disdain and "othering" of anyone not like them is real. They don't understand why they just can't "force" them to stop being racist and sexist and bigoted. Then I go back home and it's the exact opposite.

Speaking of the Black Panthers, the head of the FBI once called them the "greatest threat to the internal security of our country". If those colleges had these same authoritarian approval and desire to placate anyone who protested with a strong enough voice...how do you think that would have worked out? You think they would have allowed black college students in the South to join the Black Panthers and protest on campus? Or would white college students (happily backed by the FBI, mind you) have protested that they felt unsafe and had the school kick them all out? (If you want to use a modern equivalent, the FBI saw the Black Panthers back then as they see ISIS now. Imagine that.)

Also - definitely enjoying the conversation for what it is worth. :)
 
I think this is closer to the truth. The whole bootstrapping thing.

Yes it is the dirty truth about most Asians. Many Asians don't identify with other minorities and they think they are immune to it like what jmood88 said but in reality it can turn on Asians as fast as lightning. They fail to realize that many people can turn on them as soon as they make a mistake because of this model minority thing. They won't know what happens to them until it happens to them.

It's why jmood88 wants more Asians to voice their displeasures with society but they don't. Him and I are frustrated why they don't and I am trying really hard to find good reasons to show him why many Asians don't participate besides bootstraps and model minority and cultural upraisings. flustered

We are all minorities and face all kinds of issues but for some reason(s) many Asians don't see it and can't find themselves to relate and participate with these movements. We want Asians to help in these movements so that future injustices doesn't happen to blacks, browns, and Asians.

I think another user said this and I agree with him/her. Paraphrasing - let's get these issues settled first before we jump into other issues related to other ethnicities and races.

jmood88, I guess baby steps. Little by little, I think more Asians will start joining these rallies and protests and movements. The only issue, like I said, will be if they can accept us into these movements despite our different issues and whatnot.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Yes it is the dirty truth about most Asians. Many Asians don't identify with other minorities and they think they are immune to it like what jmood88 said but in reality it can turn on Asians as fast as lightning. They fail to realize that many people can turn on them as soon as they make a mistake because of this model minority thing. They won't know what happens to them until it happens to them.

It's why jmood88 wants more Asians to voice their displeasures with society but they don't. Him and I are frustrated why they don't and I am trying really hard to find good reasons to show him why many Asians don't participate besides bootstraps and model minority and cultural upraisings. flustered

We are all minorities and face all kinds of issues but for some reason(s) many Asians don't see it and can't find themselves to relate and participate with these movements. We want Asians to help in these movements so that future injustices doesn't happen to blacks, browns, and Asians.

I think another user said this and I agree with him/her. Paraphrasing - let's get these issues settled first before we jump into other issues related to other ethnicities and races.

jmood88, I guess baby steps. Little by little, I think more Asians will start joining these rallies and protests and movements. The only issue, like I said, will be if they can accept us into these movements despite our different issues and whatnot.

Heh, South Asians (especially Pakistanis) learned that reaaaaaaal quick after 9/11. Everyone wants somebody to hate and look at lower on the totem pole.

I do think there are some reasons though

A) we're primarily first generation / second generation immigrants - so I do think there is less of a feeling of ownership of America.

B) Culturally, we are far more about obeying our elders and authority in general. (Think about our posts on dating and what degrees we get, and how our parents are often completely in charge of such things. That doesn't happen nearly as often in other cultures). I'd be curious to see if politically, asian-americans have more of an authoritarian bent or not. Might have to research that.

C) Because the things that are often being protested don't directly affect us (yet) - we ignore it (aka, human nature).

Out of those things
A) changes with time

B) also may change in time, especially as we become more culturally attuned with American culture rather than our parents culture or our ancestry's culture

C) We're en route to this sooner rather than later. I think there's a lot of latent anger built up in this country from the Civil War that...never really got resolved (why we have never gone down the Truth and Reconciliation route South Africa did blows my mind) - and I think the Balkanization of the US (and the world) with technology will make things worse until they get better. While the intensity may never be quite the same - we'll get hated just like everyone else soon enough. :D
 
Heh, South Asians (especially Pakistanis) learned that reaaaaaaal quick after 9/11. Everyone wants somebody to hate and look at lower on the totem pole.

I do think there are some reasons though

A) we're primarily first generation / second generation immigrants - so I do think there is less of a feeling of ownership of America. Definitely agree with that

B) Culturally, we are far more about obeying our elders and authority in general. (Think about our posts on dating and what degrees we get, and how our parents are often completely in charge of such things. That doesn't happen nearly as often in other cultures). I'd be curious to see if politically, asian-americans have more of an authoritarian bent or not. Might have to research that. Also very true hence the wide disconnect between different cultures

C) Because the things that are often being protested don't directly affect us (yet) - we ignore it (aka, human nature). Yep, yep, yep. It's like we told jmood88, many Asians still need something to affect us and get us into it. Like you said also, many groups are formed at different areas compared to other areas. Red, blue, or grey areas

Out of those things
A) changes with time

B) also may change in time, especially as we become more culturally attuned with American culture rather than our parents culture or our ancestry's culture

C) We're en route to this sooner rather than later. I think there's a lot of latent anger built up in this country from the Civil War that...never really got resolved (why we have never gone down the Truth and Reconciliation route South Africa did blows my mind) - and I think the Balkanization of the US (and the world) with technology will make things worse until they get better. While the intensity may never be quite the same - we'll get hated just like everyone else soon enough. :D

Shits been happening since the beginning and with the advancement of technology, more and more events are covered, streamed, shown to the public. It's going to positively and negatively affect all of us.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Shits been happening since the beginning and with the advancement of technology, more and more events are covered, streamed, shown to the public. It's going to positively and negatively affect all of us.

I have a lot of faith in our younger generations - the ones who are growing up with social media and tech fully integrated into their lives. I occasionally guest lecture at universities and while of course they are young - they seem to have a much, much better grasp of the limitations and usefulness of technology than many of us who are at the beginning of the Millenial generation.

I am a big believer in that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice.
 

jmood88

Member
I'm also laughing my ass off at people that are implying that other minority groups have protested for Asian rights in the past more than we have for others. Did I miss the Black Caucus voting against internment or something? What about the Chinese Exclusion Act? Were there only protests from minorities at that time, or was it pretty uniformly treated?
No black caucus existed during Japanese internment as Jim Crow laws existed and when the Chinese exclusion act passed, slavery had just ended, so I have no idea why you're bringing up either of those situations.

It's not like there aren't any Asian American activists now that protest for BLM and other movements. Shit, my facebook is 95% Asian American and during Ferguson, and even now, there were tons of supporters speaking out and talking.

There ARE Asian Americans that bring this up. There's no united Asian American voice yet, and if you wanna dismiss that or think it's stupid, then you'll never fucking see what Asian Americans do or say because you are blind to the individual efforts and yet broadly accuse "Asian Americans" of not supporting other minorities, despite the fact that we do. There's 5% of us, for fuck's sake. Sometimes there's only five of us for every hundred people, so it can be hard to see.
You can pretend like there are tons of Asians out there protesting but it's not the case. Despite what you see on your Facebook feed, Asian Americans speaking out against racial injustices is rare.

If you want to generalize all Asian Americans as apathetic to the plight of other minorities, that's your call. I don't really care, I'll keep on supporting what I do regardless of what y'all say. But, you can not do that and then, at the same time, reject the need for one panAsian American movement... because you've already put all of us together in one group.
I'm not pulling this out of thin air, it's reality.

& yeah, I'd still like to see a panAsian voice first, but it's not going to form around some other minority's problems. That just not how it works. People are selfish and form THEIR groups first. The Black Panthers didn't get together because the Native Americans were being persecuted. It's gotta happen with an Asian issue first.

IMHO first South Asians and East Asians and Southeast Asians have to work together (though I suspect that any panAsian group would fracture this into two groups) to form a more-or-less united front (or at least a group with enough "power" to have any influence), before we can even think of putting our voices together in a meaningful way.
Forming another group doesn't preclude anyone from showing solidarity with others

*edit: it's worth addressing WHY there's a lack of Asian activists. First of all, you can rule out old people and new immigrants.

Of the young kids remaining, why don't they speak out? Some are very privileged, and like other privileged folk that live in a bubble, don't see what is going on.

Others have been raised to not stick out. The nail that sticks out gets hammered back in. The chicken that sticks its head out gets it chopped off.

Still others may be racist. There might be some that don't want to be grouped in with other minorities, that want to Uncle Chan that tomfoolery up and lick the white man's boot and be "one of the good ones." There are some that straight up dislike other races.

Any, all, some, etc of these are factors that might influence the numbers (I don't even know what they are, but a poll/study would be nice on the % of activism done by ethnic group and race). There might be more factors.

The solution is not to say, suck it up y'all "should" be acting like "this way" because I said so.

Don't disregard circumstance and societal influences so easily. It may very well be turned on you, in the form of "well why can't <x minority> just get their shit together like <y minority>." Getting your shit together can be anything you want it to be. Protests. Activism. Academic achievement. Etc.
I haven't disregarded anything or said that anyone has to do anything, what I've said is that it's a shame that so many Asian Americans refuse to get involved with anything that isn't outside of their own bubbles, especially when the other minority groups are fighting for things that are applicable to Asian American students.
 
Dayum, I love it when bunny goes off lol. If you wanted a debate, you got one jmood88. I've said my piece already and I share some of bunny's and your sentiments.
 
As someone who grew up in a bubble and lives a pretty privileged life, it is very interesting to hear this discussion. Don't really have much to add, just wanted to let you all know that I'm paying attention.
 
As someone who grew up in a bubble and lives a pretty privileged life, it is very interesting to hear this discussion. Don't really have much to add, just wanted to let you all know that I'm paying attention.

Hah, join in. You can ask questions. I'm pretty sure bsb or Cybit can answer some of them. Those two to me are the more knowledgeable ones in Asian Politics on GAF.

I can't stress this enough but the temperatures in the Twin Cities at this time of year are crazy! We had a bit of snow earlier last month and now we are sitting at mid 30s to early 40s!!! Ain't that some crazy stuff?!
 

suzu

Member
Sorry I'm not articulate enough, but I'm interested and reading the discussion nonetheless.

*edit: it's worth addressing WHY there's a lack of Asian activists. First of all, you can rule out old people and new immigrants.

Of the young kids remaining, why don't they speak out? Some are very privileged, and like other privileged folk that live in a bubble, don't see what is going on.

Others have been raised to not stick out. The nail that sticks out gets hammered back in. The chicken that sticks its head out gets it chopped off.

Still others may be racist. There might be some that don't want to be grouped in with other minorities, that want to Uncle Chan that tomfoolery up and lick the white man's boot and be "one of the good ones." There are some that straight up dislike other races.

Any, all, some, etc of these are factors that might influence the numbers (I don't even know what they are, but a poll/study would be nice on the % of activism done by ethnic group and race). There might be more factors.

This is also true.
 
Hah, join in. You can ask questions. I'm pretty sure bsb or Cybit can answer some of them. Those two to me are the more knowledgeable ones in Asian Politics on GAF.

I can't stress this enough but the temperatures in the Twin Cities at this time of year are crazy! We had a bit of snow earlier last month and now we are sitting at mid 30s to early 40s!!! Ain't that some crazy stuff?!

It was 74 in Austin today.

74.

In December.
 
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