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Atheist GAF, I seek your help!
- Thread starter fifasnipe2224
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fifasnipe2224
Member
wtf man? You start off by calling me fucking stupid. Then go on and promote lying? Are you kidding me? I dont want my daughter to be forced into religion because its a lie. I dont not want ANYONE looking at my daughter in the eyes and telling her "Be good and go to heaven and if your bad you will go to hell forever." Nope... no lying thank you.For an atheist, you're really fucking stupid.
I grew up in an Italian family and I was designated Roman Catholic without my consent. My grandparents drilled it into my life, My parents forced me to do my communion and confirmation, I was baptized at 2, and what happened to me?
I turned 8 and realized it was all stupid and made no sense. I realize that social engineering and dynamics are important and that pretending is a useful thing. I pretended to accept my faith and in turn, I had many friends, and my family loved me. I realize not everyone is like me, and i'm willing to compromise and bend a little for the world so I can get what I want/need.
Here's what you need to do: Go to your wife, say you saw the light, you believe in God, religion makes sense, you're changed. Your parents will accept you. Your girlfriend will take you back, your girlfriends family will love you, and your daughter gets to have a nice party and some water put on your head.
If your daughter has an IQ of more than 50, she too will realize just how non-sensical it is, and when you and her come to realize that you're alike, you can attend stupid church sermons and wink at each other as if it's your little inside joke, and that's the special bond you'll create with your daughter for the rest of her life and it will nurture her and not give her crazy trust issues. You and her will have a sociological bond of you two, against the world, but more important, she will have a parent that is on her side and gets her.
If she turns out to love religion, well keep it to yourself and realize your daughter isn't going to grow up to cure cancer or discover the next big breakthrough in new energy, but hey, we can't all be winners.
TLR: LIE. Lie about fucking everything, save your daughter's life, and I'm a big fucking prick, but who cares.
If she is baptized she, nor I will hear the end of it. As far as her side of the family goes thats its... they have a new member to force their beliefs to. Its not the fact that she wont remember it, its the fact that they will and they wont let others forget.
The OP is completely wrong about how to raise his daughter to be a well-rounded and critical individual.
Angry Fork
Member
I wasn't saying neo nazi's = same as all christian households just that pathological lies and magical superstition shouldn't be taught to kids period.
But I still don't know why any religious person would feel insulted by me if they know they're going to their favorite theme park upon death and I'll be tortured forever for mocking them. Surely that's enough to make them smile every day without issue? Or is that not enough and they have to make their children + other people's children believe it too?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
If she takes permanent custody of the child, or even if you do get to see her but only very intermittently, she will be free to raise the child with a full religious upbringing. The best situation for your child to be in is having two loving parents around at all times, and for you to be able to teach the child as much as your partner does. I know it stings, but it really is for the best if you try to repair the relationship as best you can, even if that means your partner "wins" this argument - because in the end, she's going to win even more if you never get to see your child again.
Over time, you can try to soften her position, possibly prevent the child from getting an exclusively Greek Orthodox upbringing. You can teach your child about other religions, and that some people don't believe in any relgions at all. Not in a snarky undermining way, but in a way that legitimately expands your daughter's intellectual horizons. You have years before those kinds of decisions need to be made, but right now you have the most important one of all - whether you're going to be there for her upbringing or not. I like to believe that you do love your daughter as much as most parents love their children, and that although you are angry (and with good reason!), you also love your partner. You have to try and play the long game now though, even knowing that it's going to hurt in the short term.
One thing that Atheists tend to gloss over is that religion is just as much about cultural influence as it is about spirituality.
Your ex-gf was raised this way and brought up to make these things important. Even if it's silly to you culture and religion mesh in a lot of ways, many of which can be uncomfortable
It's your daughter's choice. Yes, right now she has none. But right now she also doesn't freaking care.
You have two choices. Continue on your path of indignation and be an outsider in your own daughter's life (which leaves here in religion by default) or accept differences and be a good example to her of someone who is happy without it.
Honestly to me there's no difference between what you're saying and a religious mother who freaks when her son comes out as gay.
Your ex-gf was raised this way and brought up to make these things important. Even if it's silly to you culture and religion mesh in a lot of ways, many of which can be uncomfortable
Again you keep missing the boat (your freddie avatar should be confiscated).
It's your daughter's choice. Yes, right now she has none. But right now she also doesn't freaking care.
You have two choices. Continue on your path of indignation and be an outsider in your own daughter's life (which leaves here in religion by default) or accept differences and be a good example to her of someone who is happy without it.
Honestly to me there's no difference between what you're saying and a religious mother who freaks when her son comes out as gay.
have enough faith in your daughter to trust her to make her own decisions.
Literally no point in trying to reason with you. As crazy as the people you hate
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
I mean, they don't even have kneecaps right away. Going to a limbo is totally out of the question.
How low can they go? Brother, not very!
fifasnipe2224
Member
Let me make this clear also. I have no concern about losing custody....
FUCK
Just as I was typing that I was reminded how she was doing things behind my back to get our child into their church and telling me she would do it again at 8 months... damn, maybe it might come to that.
I still highly doubt it to be honest, but I wont rule that out anymore.
FUCK
Just as I was typing that I was reminded how she was doing things behind my back to get our child into their church and telling me she would do it again at 8 months... damn, maybe it might come to that.
I still highly doubt it to be honest, but I wont rule that out anymore.
Angry Fork
Member
Something being a part of culture doesn't make it right, bull fighting is still horrible. Systematically telling paranoid fear inducing lies to children is bad too.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
And supplement it with general religious education (so she realizes that greek-orthodox Christianity isn't the only ideology claiming to hold the "truth") and critical thinking training.
Make sure that she is taught to believe in Santa Claus, so that she can when she realizes that it is just a lie to make things more "magical" draw some parallels between it and the God belief.
There is not a switch that is flipped when a person goes to church. Come on dude. There's not a button you press that will turn you religious. Let them do their thing. And you do yours. Teach her there are other options. She is a human being and fully capable of deciding for herself.
Devil Theory
Member
Absolutely do not do this. Making false amends will only make it more difficult to protect your daughter in the long run. The OP hit close to home, as I grew up in a very religious household, broke away from it after I was 20 years old, became an atheist, and currently have a girlfriend (soon to be fiance) who is religious. She's not as embedded in it as yours, so the contrast is not as stark, however the ideals are still existent.
I understand your frustration, and I do think you handled the situation somewhat sloppily, however your reasons are valid. Considering her disregard for your requests to keep the issue private, her pre-inviting your parents, talking to priests, etc. it's clear she does not have the respect she should for your stance, or even waiting to come to a compromising solution. She has stepped around the issue long enough, and was going in circles around you to avoid inevitable confrontation, hoping you would just give in and let it happen while looking the other way. You did offer compromise; wait for her to decide to be baptized, have religion in her life in a lighter way during younger years, involved in Holidays, etc. and I'm sure there are other factors as well, but it seems evident she did not accept those ideas.
I don't agree with anyone else in this thread as far as lying yourself along and saying "sorry! I was wrong and I now see the error of my ways." -- this is ridiculous, and insulting to your entire person and who you are and what you stand for.
There's a difference between putting your family first and becoming someone you aren't in order to satisfy their expected picture of you. If you have to change who you as a person at the deepest level then you need to re-evaluate your entire situation. There's a good reason why most people don't "come out" to their family about the religion, or lack thereof. She seems unstable, as from you telling that she went off with your child without any regard to you and your wishes, her apparent lack of concern is more troubling than anything. What happens during the next major issue of your life/relationship? Will she completely disregard you then too and go run off and do what she wants?
Unfortunately, the differences between you and her may be too deep to salvage without some sort of fake agreements, especially this far into the game. I don't have any direct instructional advice, because I don't know your family or your SO, but if she seems as uncooperative as I think she is, it's something nobody can direct for you.
DrPirate said:For an atheist, you're really fucking stupid.
TL
Also, don't listen to this, worst advice of the century.
Oh like likening groups to Neo-Nazis? Is it like that? Because I think it's like that.
Dr.Palutena
Member
No concern and the reality of what can happen are two different things. Also, is there like an advice thread on GAF where the OP actually listens to any of the advice that is presented to him?
saltinekracka
Member
Doesn't seem to be, and that's not changing today.
Ice cold kitty ronito lands a body blow.
Seriously guys, we're talking about an 8 month old and her mother who wants to introduce her to religion. We aren't talking about the pope telling Africans to poke holes in condoms.
As the atheist father, OPs role SHOULD HAVE been to teach their daughter how to think in a critical way, which would probably lead to her eventual denouncement of religion anyway. It should not be to shelter her from all religious thought until she's 17.
Angry Fork
Member
Why am I crazy.
Monotheism's and race superiority myths are both lies that take over people's lives when taught at a young age they're similar in that way sure.
Hey, I'm not the idiot that put myself in a no-win situation. You should have seen this from the outset. Now it's your responsibility to make the best with what you have.
I don't mean to generalize, but this divorce stuff results with broken children. Not all the time, but there's a difference between people who grew up in stable households, and children that didn't.
I get what I'm saying seems radical, but like others have said, you have to trust your daughters intelligence. I still go to church. I don't buy a single second of it, but you know what? I still have 5 uncles, 4 aunts and 56 cousins that respect me for it because I know they wouldn't if I turned my back on all of that. What is more important? Placing my beliefs higher than my capacity to have a group of human beings I can turn to when I am in need? Who's the big loser in this situation?
I'm telling you to do what's best, and be the guiding hand in your daughter's life. I don't have kids, but I know when I do, absolutely everything goes out the window and that child is my everything afterwards. Be there and guide her man... Don't give up everything, you're going to come out of this losing, and your daughter will suffer for it.
I'm an Atheist even though I was brought up in the church.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
I think you should be more concerned with being a father right now and worry about the religion stuff when she gets older.
Oh what about belief of intellectual superiority? Is that true too?
Air Zombie Meat
Member
OP I understand your feelings but I think you're blowing a baptism out of proportion. Your child isn't even going to remember it. When she gets old enough to think for herself you can talk to her about your issues rather than taking a hardline stance now. Then again if things are as bad between you and your gf as you make it sound, perhaps you shouldn't be with her.
lol, I basically told him to do this... He has to kiss her ass
fifasnipe2224
Member
I am leaving work now GAF. Since I will most likely be sleeping in a car again I might not be able to post any time soon. I will try my best to keep you all updated.
Thank you guys for doing the three things I love most about GAF
1) Many points of views
2) The hard trust
3) Funny images
Thank you guys for doing the three things I love most about GAF
1) Many points of views
2) The hard trust
3) Funny images
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
Whoa, that's a brilliant point. That was an important step for my oldest!
Her mother and I decided it was time, and her younger sister was asleep. I said to her something like "Honey, you know how there's not really any magic in the world and how things kidnap follow scientific laws we've discovered? Don't you think it's kinda funny how the only real magic around is Santa?"
Then she thought for a moment, laughed, and said we tricked her. Then we all had a chuckle, she asked why, and we explained it.
It can be a great experience for a young mind.
Dude Abides
Banned
You're crazy for thinking you could make an analogy involving Naziism without provoking spittle-flecked outrage.
Yeah. This.
Exentryk
Member
And I absolutely agree with this as well as well as introducing other beliefs. One thing I distinctly remember from my youth was learning about Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and such. Mind you, it wasn't from my parents, It was from a book in the library, but it was really enlightening.
The thing about telling your daughter about Santa Clause is awesome, I might borrow that.
Steve Youngblood
Member
It's a stupid, disingenuous comparison that employs hyperbole to make a point.
I'm sure former racists exist as well. Sometimes we get lucky and are able to break away from our former programming.
kicking your child out the house b/c they are atheist? Religious people need to get a grip on the things that matter in life...
There are many people who 'break free' from the nefarious grips of the church. It's made even easier if there is a caring father or mother who is able to teach them important skills like critical thinking and doesn't get bogged down in ideological fuckeries like Baptism.
They do, and they don't. Again, from my personal experiences, having been raised in a very religious family and being atheist myself, I think it's a slap in the face.
It's sort of like "We raised you and loved you and cared for you in this house, and then you respond by denouncing the God that has loved you and blessed you with all this fortune, etc" I know for a fact if I told my family I was an atheist, it's instant excommunication.
But here's the thing, I don't blame them. I CAN'T blame them. They don't know better, it's not their fault, it's how they were raised. So yes, it's disingenuous and I'll continue to play the part because I love them, their beliefs don't hurt me, and in turn, I don't hurt them.
Some of my atheist friends think I'm enabling it and impeding humankind by not being more vocal about it, but I choose to have a family I can go to when I need them, and I choose to keep the respect of a community that would be there for me in times of trouble.
Oppo
Member
I hardly think he is directly increasing the chances of the child being religious. I agree the ceremony is meaningless which is exactly why his intransigence is every single bit as valid has the GF/family's.
So what he should do, that they cannot, is the christian thing, which is to turn the other cheek and try to find a way through communication and empathy.
I just know I wouldn't particularly like to stand in front of everyone an make a false vow. Which these ceremonies are rife with. But I'd do it for long term stability in the end. I just can't fault the guy too much for basically being completely forthwith. It's more than the GF has done.
Angry Fork
Member
I didn't mean to say it was always the case it's just common especially when there aren't proper alternative theories in their environment. I imagine small towns in the south have this problem more than say larger cities.
I'm still not entirely sure how some people break the chain and others don't though. I used to be religious too when I was younger, I became agnostic largely because I realized praying/worship wasn't doing anything, then became atheist once I was old enough to think about it for a bit and realize why the monotheism's couldn't logically be true.
But some don't do this for some reason they attach themselves even stronger to faith, I feel like it has to be because of fear/paranoia of doing the wrong thing. The more you tell your kid if you do x you'll be turned into melted flesh by a large red horned beast the more they'll be afraid of resisting the lies it seems.
This reminds me of Rick Santorum on stage saying 'we will never have smart people on our side'. I still don't understand why he thinks it's something to be proud of, as if logic/reason is a bad thing. When it comes to religion people act like if you're not grovelling and apologizing for offending then you're a snobbish elitist, it's so odd. I don't think telling lies that instill fear and paranoia/superstition into children is a good thing it's not about me claiming superiority over anything.
Nobody is asking him to make a false vow? Just to accept this bit of craziness for the sake of the GF.
Relationships are all about accepting little bits of crazy.
really? because I'd say telling your kid "The only smart people are the ones that are atheist." Isn't much different than saying "Only people that pray to this god are good."
And they're both just as true.
That's also how you were raised, and yet you're not like that. So yes, it is their fault.
I mean, feel free to love people who would instantly kick you out of their home for not partaking in the worship of their invisible friend, but that doesn't make them not horrible people.
Instead, you hide your own identity and beliefs so that you can "have a family to go home to"? I'm sure that must feel great, being held hostage like that. Great family.
Help her develop critical thinking skills and expose her to other cultures/religions at an early age and you should have nothing to worry about. Most atheists had to go to church when they were young. Indoctrination happens when the kid isn't exposed to alternate views. You need to be there to make sure she has that exposure, but that won't happen if you become a "villain" to the family and won't budge on this issue.
that1dude24
Member
you jump on him for false equivalences, then post this? come on.
That's just it, I don't feel like I'm being held hostage. Does it suck? Yeah, of course, but what are my alternatives?
What I'm trying say is: Yes, I hide my beliefs to my family, but does that hurt me in any way? It doesn't. At all. Would it hurt me if I disappointed them? Of course it would.
But you are correct. I shouldn't defend their behavior. But these are my circumstances, and I just try to make the best of them, and that's basically the advice I tried to give the OP. He got stuck in this rut, and from my point of view, having a stable household is important to development. If he has to sacrifice and suffer to give his daughter a decent life, it's something I would do. I would suffer 20+ years to give my kids a proper household if I knew in the end, they would turn out great. Again, all just my opinion and how I would act in his position.
Featheredkitten
Banned
Reading through this thread, i'm not sure the GF should take OP back, he seems a little militant and kinda crazy.
Scoring arguments as if the point of arguing is to be right and win, instead of solving the issue....i don't even know what.
All the GF is trying to do is share a part of her culture, history, and beliefs with her daughter, something OP just shits all over without even trying to understand. If he can't compromise on this issue he's not going to be a very good husband or father.
OP reminds me of my exe (and son's bio dad), he needs to grow the hell up and realize it's not all about him before he loses any chance of a relationship with his daughter.
Scoring arguments as if the point of arguing is to be right and win, instead of solving the issue....i don't even know what.
All the GF is trying to do is share a part of her culture, history, and beliefs with her daughter, something OP just shits all over without even trying to understand. If he can't compromise on this issue he's not going to be a very good husband or father.
OP reminds me of my exe (and son's bio dad), he needs to grow the hell up and realize it's not all about him before he loses any chance of a relationship with his daughter.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I sometimes find it hard to stomach the aggressive nature of some atheists. Then again I don't live in the US so I've come to accept that it must be a result of the hold religion has over so many over there. It's fairly easy to take a live and let live attitude in the UK. They don't bother me and I don't bother them.
What about the culture, the ideology and the beliefs of the father? If they directly conflict with the mothers, why should he be the one making the compromise?
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