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Atheist GAF, I seek your help!

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Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
ronito said:
really? because I'd say telling your kid "The only smart people are the ones that are atheist." Isn't much different than saying "Only people that pray to this god are good."

And they're both just as true.
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I wouldn't ever say atheists were all smart just that they're probably more logical than theists. Most children grow up within religious contexts if not in their family than on TV/movies etc. so for a lot of people it's a gradual shift to atheism. If that happens then it's conscious and deliberate, they use their mind to reach that conclusion.

I can't say the same for theists who are basically taught from age 3 and on if they steal from the cookie jar lucifer will cut off their fingers. It's a permanent santa clause naughty/nice list so it's not surprising if they don't think about ignoring what their parents told them.
 
F

Featheredkitten

Banned
Kinitari said:
What about the culture, the ideology and the beliefs of the father? If they directly conflict with the mothers, why should he be the one making the compromise?
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When the father's desire is to say there's no way the mother can have a ceremony that's important to her, he's being an ass. No one is saying they can't teach religion and atheism side by side, but he's not even trying to find duality.

The baby is eight months old, the ceremony is for the family and the mother....not his daughter.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Kinitari said:
What about the culture, the ideology and the beliefs of the father? If they directly conflict with the mothers, why should he be the one making the compromise?
Click to expand...

Shouldn't atheism be the absence of all that? Otherwise you're just turning it into another religion.
 
K

Korey

Member
DrPirate said:
That's just it, I don't feel like I'm being held hostage. Does it suck? Yeah, of course, but what are my alternatives?

What I'm trying say is: Yes, I hide my beliefs to my family, but does that hurt me in any way? It doesn't. At all. Would it hurt me if I disappointed them? Of course it would.

But you are correct. I shouldn't defend their behavior. But these are my circumstances, and I just try to make the best of them, and that's basically the advice I tried to give the OP. He got stuck in this rut, and from my point of view, having a stable household is important to development. If he has to sacrifice and suffer to give his daughter a decent life, it's something I would do. I would suffer 20+ years to give my kids a proper household if I knew in the end, they would turn out great. Again, all just my opinion and how I would act in his position.
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Replace "atheist" with "gay". Same story?

Your alternatives are to be yourself and ask your family to accept you. And if they don't, then they don't deserve your time, love, or energy. But yea, it seems like you NEED them more than they need you.

The OP will probably have to compromise, give in, and pretend until he can find an exit strategy, we don't disagree about that. But the point is, he wouldn't have to if the people around him weren't horrible.
 
K

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Featheredkitten said:
When the father's desire is to say there's no way the mother can have a ceremony that's important to her, he's being an ass. No one is saying they can't teach religion and atheism side by side, but he's not even trying to find duality.

The baby is eight months old, the ceremony is for the family and the mother....not his daughter.
Click to expand...

Well the problem is that they are inherently conflicting ideologies - the OP isn't simply atheist, he wants his child to not be indoctrinated into religion. He could be religious and still have the same considerations.

I don't think the OP is particularly upset about the baptism, but the mother made it clear she wants to follow it up with all the other stuff that comes with it, the full religious work over - where as the OP wants the child to be exposed to as many religions as possible, as well as the concept of atheism, and let her decide at an 'appropriate age'.

That is compromise, that is being considerate of her history and being reasonable. But the mother just wants it her way. This is the issue I have with it. I don't agree with how the OP approached it, but I understand his predicament.

Zoe said:
Shouldn't atheism be the absence of all that? Otherwise you're just turning it into another religion.
Click to expand...

*shrug* I was trying to paint some duality, but I never specified it was his Atheism.

Atheism is just an absence of belief in a God - after that people have their ideologies and cultures and who knows what else that they want to impart on their children. One of his philosophies is letting the child decide at an age what she wants to do in regards to religion (or lack there of) and not indoctrinate her. This, for all we know, is a very important and powerful belief that the OP holds really dear. Why marginalize it? Why place it below the mothers beliefs?
 
D

DrPirate

Banned
Korey said:
Replace "atheist" with "gay". Same story?

Your alternatives are to be yourself and ask your family to accept you. And if they don't, then they don't deserve your time, love, or energy. But yea, it seems like you NEED them more than they need you.

The OP will probably have to compromise, give in, and pretend until he can find an exit strategy, we don't disagree about that. But the point is, he wouldn't have to if the people around him weren't horrible.
Click to expand...

Then we'll shake on it and agree. If I was gay, I would be absolutely miserable because there is NO way they'd accept me with that. It happened to one of my cousins and the guy isn't even allowed at our Christmas parties. I try to keep in touch and do my best to keep him in the loop, but he's perfectly happy being on his own, he doesn't need us.

I know myself, I'm very family oriented and it would be incredibly tough for me to make that decision. You're deduction about my reliance on my family is true, I don't live with them, but I like having them in my corner.
 
F

Fudgepuppy

Banned
I still can't believe people think that if you don't get baptized, you can't get into heaven.

I don't believe in heaven, but if there was one, I'd like to believe whoever is in charge of it, is tolerant enough to let in everyone who's been nice, and not just people who's bathed in "holy water" and then been sort of nice.
 
L

Log4Girlz

Member
Fudgepuppy said:
I still can't believe people think that if you don't get baptized, you can't get into heaven.

I don't believe in heaven, but if there was one, I'd like to believe whoever is in charge of it, is tolerant enough to let in everyone who's been nice, and not just people who's bathed in "holy water" and then been sort of nice.
Click to expand...

Why would you think that is any more ridiculous than anything else christianity asserts?
 
F

Featheredkitten

Banned
Kinitari said:
Well the problem is that they are inherently conflicting ideologies - the OP isn't simply atheist, he wants his child to not be indoctrinated into religion. He could be religious and still have the same considerations.

I don't think the OP is particularly upset about the baptism, but the mother made it clear she wants to follow it up with all the other stuff that comes with it, the full religious work over - where as the OP wants the child to be exposed to as many religions as possible, as well as the concept of atheism, and let her decide at an 'appropriate age'.

That is compromise, that is being considerate of her history and being reasonable. But the mother just wants it her way. This is the issue I have with it. I don't agree with how the OP approached it, but I understand his predicament.
Click to expand...

To be fair, we're only seeing his side of the story, we can only go on what he told us, but he's not painting himself as very considering of others' beliefs. It seems as though he created this thread to get a pat on the back.
 
T

televator

Member
So how did the relationship go as far as having a baby with her without her ever knowing you were an atheist?

I'm an atheist, and I make sure any girl I'm interested in having a relationship with knows it. I think it's great that you have conviction, but I think you chose to show it far too late into this. Sure it's hard to come out sooner rather than later when it is know that some families are torn apart (as yours was), but if you're gonna be possibly ex-communicated don't wait until you have a child's well being on the line.

I'm sorry about your situation. Religious beliefs are superficial reasons for family members to stick together, and yeah fuck people who cling to that, but these kinds of things really require some fore thought.
 
D

demosthenes

Member
fifasnipe2224 said:
We spoken about it very loosely in the past and it never got far. Our child was a "surprise" and even after nine months + 40 days we still do not agree. Right now I am trying to find a 2nd job I guess, find a small cheap place to live and see how I can raise my daughter properly with a monster.
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LOL

Jesus christ dude.

This is coming from an atheist, but it seems you have the maturity level of a 10 year old. I wish you all the luck in the world in raising your child.
 
S

Stridone

Banned
OP, you are 100% right in your stance. It's a shame you didn't work this out before you got her pregnant, but good luck man.
 
K

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Featheredkitten said:
To be fair, we're only seeing his side of the story, we can only go on what he told us, but he's not painting himself as very considering of others' beliefs. It seems as though he created this thread to get a pat on the back.
Click to expand...

Mmm, well from what it seems, religion wasn't really a big issue until his child was born... so, I might be taking liberties, but I imagine that it wasn't very important for anyone involved until this moment, I'm sure he was being at least somewhat considerate of his girlfriend and his parents beliefs before the child. Now that he has a child however, he seems to be unwilling to compromise on some core issues. And while compromise is good, I think there are certain things that you understandably hold on to and refuse to compromise - I think the OP's 'core issue' is that he does not want his child 'indoctrinated' ie, religious school and non-exposure to other beliefs.

Again... while I think he didn't deal with it well, I think the spirit of his position is entirely in the right and something he very much should defend... just more intelligently than he has so far.
 
F

Featheredkitten

Banned
Kinitari said:
Mmm, well from what it seems, religion wasn't really a big issue until his child was born... so, I might be taking liberties, but I imagine that it wasn't very important for anyone involved until this moment, I'm sure he was being at least somewhat considerate of his girlfriend and his parents beliefs before the child. Now that he has a child however, he seems to be unwilling to compromise on some core issues. And while compromise is good, I think there are certain things that you understandably hold on to and refuse to compromise - I think the OP's 'core issue' is that he does not want his child 'indoctrinated' ie, religious school and non-exposure to other beliefs.

Again... while I think he didn't deal with it well, I think the spirit of his position is entirely in the right and something he very much should defend... just more intelligently than he has so far.
Click to expand...

You have a point. Maybe, if they compromise they can agree to no religious school and the GF gets to take the child the church, or something along those lines. It's true that if he believes it to be right he should defend his beliefs, but not at the expense of being in his child's life, which is where he is headed if he keeps up the crap he's been pulling.
 
M

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
fifasnipe2224 said:
TL:DR

Please read some if not all of this post
GF wants to baptize our baby, I say let her pick once she is of age, her church wants my GF to bring our baby to a 40 day introduction, I say not unless we come to a conclusion, she refuses to co-operate, says very hurtful and out of line comments, my parents get involve, things get worse, dad kicks me out of the house because I am an atheist, GF sets a date for the 40 introduction without my approve and invited members of my family behind my back, I cannot see myself happy with my GF anymore, I move out, I am homeless, and I miss my baby.
Click to expand...

As others have said, plenty of atheists have been baptized. I myself was Christined(sp?) Roman Catholic, but was never close to any kind of belief.

As a baby, your daughter isn't going to remember anything, or be affected by it. While your girlfriend may expose her to much of her own faith, I say you counter by teaching your daughter critical thinking skills, research skills, exposing her to atheist and humanist positions, as well as exposing her to many other religions. Your daughter will make the right choice for her off the back of that.

The one thing you are wanting to avoid is your GF aggressively defending against any such teachings by making some claim that by your daughter being baptized she must only be led down that religious path. Exactly how you get her to agree to this I don't know (asking for it in writing seems a little dumb), but if she wants you to compromise then she has to compromise and not pull any shenanigans in the future.

Your situation sucks, but good luck to you. I can't even fathom dating a religious person, much less having a child with one.
 
kiunchbb

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
Kinitari said:
Why marginalize it? Why place it below the mothers beliefs?
Click to expand...

Because both side of the families support the wife, and the wife will win the custody.

There are no winning this, the daughter will be raise in a religious community, the only difference is whether or not the father going to be with her in this process.

This is not a supreme court case on freedom of speech vs religion, the OP daughter will lose her father because he is too proud to back down. There are so much he can do while the daughter is growing up, yet he care more about making a stand than doing the things that matter.
 
A

APZonerunner

Member
For a non-believer such as yourself Baptism is a meaningless ritual anyway, as has been said before. So - go back to your family. Be are you are, but allow the baptism to happen and the church and such to be taught - but don't lie. Stay as you are. You will, in this sense, form the counterbalance to your wife for your daughter. If you leave, if you back down, she will not have that counter balance. All she'll have is the words of the religious - that isn't what you want.

Having that balance she can see both sides and decide for herself what she wants to believe when she's old enough. Be a father, and be a spouse. While you're questioning her, you chose to have a child with this woman in the first place so clearly you did believe in her originally at least.

Also, as a side note -- having two sides of the family (ie your parents and her mom's side) with two different sects of religion will likely make it easier for her to see through the BS. So that's on your side. You can bet when they go to see grandma and grandpa they'll try to drill non-orthodox greek teachings in!
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Featheredkitten said:
You have a point. Maybe, if they compromise they can agree to no religious school and the GF gets to take the child the church, or something along those lines. It's true that if he believes it to be right he should defend his beliefs, but not at the expense of being in his child's life, which is where he is headed if he keeps up the crap he's been pulling.
Click to expand...

That was his girlfriend's compromise which he rejected.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
"Thank god" my girlfriend is even more dismissive of religion than I am. My children will not be brainwashed with any belief (we won't even promote atheism).
 
G

Gilby

Member
Just chiming in with the same thought as most people here: baptism won't magically take away her ability to reason when she's older.

Should have just done what many parents do: teach her about Santa and HIS rewards and punishments of her morality. It might help her make some mental connections later in life.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Biggzy said:
"Free thinkers," my friend.
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That's the way it should be.

I didn't really figure out my father's stance on religion till my late 20s :p Everytime I said something bad about religion he'd say "is that so?", and everytime I said something reverent of religion he'd say "is that so?"

Quite a lucky position I think... To never be biased by your parents.
 
F

Freezie KO

Banned
Just read all of this.

To the OP:

Your parents seem like bigoted assholes. And it's clear that you and your GF will never get along.

You should tell your GF that she can baptize your daughter and raise her Christian if you can leave forever and not pay child support. That's your compromise.

Then cut your losses, ditch everyone, and buy a couple bottles of Jack.
 
I

Ixquerlat

Neo Member
1) There is no problem at all if some priest put water on your daughter's head, you are giving way too much importance to a simple ritual that your daughter won't remember.
2) The problem is not if your daughter is or not baptized, is that your GF is doing everything by her side without hearing you. You have a problem and it isn't the religion your daughter will accept as hers.
3) Check your priorities, is better if you accept now and leave her to put water onto her head and assure you will have time with your daughter so you can "show her the variety of views out there", but is most probable that your GF "brainwash" your child if she spends more time with her and you are only allowed to visit her on weekends.

For me, and as far as I can see many people here, you are over reacting and focusing on the wrong issue. For your daughter will be more important to have you as an always present parent than any religious ritual.

(Anyway, you have the right to be mad at your GF because of doing something you firmly didn't approve, but still... Try to fix things, say you feel sorry (you should) and she should apologize too)


Good luck with it.
 
A

Aske

Member
This is a relationship problem, not a philosophical one. Break it off with your GF now if you think that's the way to go; otherwise get to couples' counselling as soon as possible.

Assuming you can work out your problems as a couple, I'd let your GF do whatever she wanted with regard to church, but keep your daughter in a secular school to ensure she gets a reason-based education.

Treat the religious stuff as a cultural thing: it's right and appropriate for a mother to inaugurate her child into her culture, but not to the extent that it diminishes that of her father. A secular school is your equivalent to her church, and church is where she'll already receive a supernatural education anyway. Most importantly, be every bit as open about your beliefs with your daughter as your partner is. Discuss different belief systems with your daughter, and make sure your partner won't have an issue with that. That will ensure your daughter has two strong parental role models who demonstrate the peaceful co-existence of disparate philosophies.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Fudgepuppy said:
I still can't believe people think that if you don't get baptized, you can't get into heaven.

I don't believe in heaven, but if there was one, I'd like to believe whoever is in charge of it, is tolerant enough to let in everyone who's been nice, and not just people who's bathed in "holy water" and then been sort of nice.
Click to expand...

Beliefs aren't always going to be rational. My ex claimed to be agnostic, but he told me he still wanted me to "accept Jesus Christ as my savior" before my death on the off chance that heaven was real.

OP keeps trying to paint the girlfriend's attitude towards baptism as selfish, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. When you have a true belief in limbo or a fear of the afterlife, you'll do everything you can to ensure the best for your child.
 
K

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Zoe said:
Beliefs aren't always going to be rational. My ex claimed to be agnostic, but he told me he still wanted me to "accept Jesus Christ as my savior" before my death on the off chance that heaven was real.

OP keeps trying to paint the girlfriend's attitude towards baptism as selfish, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. When you have a true belief in limbo or a fear of the afterlife, you'll do everything you can to ensure the best for your child.
Click to expand...

I think this is what gives me the most pause in immediately painting the girlfriend as selfish - because, she isn't thinking about herself. She sincerely believes that the livelihood and health of her daughters eternal soul depends on her fighting the OP on this. And the OP is adamant about raising his daughter without religious indoctrination.

I immediately agree, understand and empathise with the OP - and I would go as far as to say that the girlfriend's beliefs are kind of silly. But I wouldn't go as far as to say she is being selfish. Both parents are probably thinking more about their daughter than themselves, at least that's what I like to think.

Just hopefully they don't let their desire to do good by their daughter, destroy their daughters childhood.
 
B

Biggzy

Member
BocoDragon said:
That's the way it should be.

I didn't really figure out my father's stance on religion till my late 20s :p Everytime I said something bad about religion he'd say "is that so?", and everytime I said something reverent of religion he'd say "is that so?"

Quite a lucky position I think... To never be biased by your parents.
Click to expand...

When my dad found out that I no longer believed in a god, he said I was brainwashed and that I would go back. So yes, you are lucky. ;)
 
oneils

oneils

Member
Your post kind of makes my head hurt.

I am an atheist.

It is kind of too late to have this argument. None of your arguments are getting through. Your girlfriend wants the baby baptized. Forget about what you think you "agreed" to. It doesn't matter anymore. If you keep arguing you are just leading to an impasse.

You know what?

Just let the kid get baptised.

I was baptised, I received communion and later was confirmed as a catholic.

However, most of the time I was just going through the motions. Especially during confirmation. I didn't quite believe that a god actually existed. None of the rituals did any lasting harm to me.

So I say let your daughter get baptised and explain to her your views about faith, religion or lack-thereof as she ages.

My 2 cents.

edit: whelp. Just read the rest of your post. I think you really could have used an outsider's perspective while this was going on. Now that you have made your decision and it has escalated to this point, I'm not quite sure what advice to give. I am really sorry.
 
F

fifasnipe2224

Member
UPDATE
I just left from my GF house. Things went better then expected. her mom said hello to me in a sad but meaningful way. i went straight to my little girls room and held herfor about for about 20 minutes with my GF just watching me. Its not an easy moment for me since yesterday morning was the last time I saw her AND last night was the first night i was without her for the night. My GF started by saying how she was lonely being in front of church alone while all other children were being presented with both parents. I made it clear that my daughter should not have been up their in the first place. maybe later on.... maybe not at all, but definitely not with out my approval. She then went on to say my mom misses me, she loves me and she wanted me home. i have no real issue with my mom at this point. My problem is with my GF and my father.... and partially with my GF's family. I then simply asked her "it does not matter the location or the reason... but do you think its ok for you or me to take our daughter to a place that the other parent made it clear not to take her? Is ok for you to take Ashley to a place I said not too? OR for me to take her to a place you did not want her to be at??" She said NO, its not ok.

She was asking me to stay the night but I told her i cant see my self bing with her, at least no time soon.

She then asked what i wanted, I said I wanted SEVERAL apologies, I got most of the ones I asked for but not the major one. Sorry for taking our daughter to the 40 day introduction without your approval. She said she would never apologias. So I place Ashley in her basent, took a picture, went to go grab a few more blankets and left.

Her mom stopped me to say a few nice words especially stating how she never got involded or stated any opinions UNLESS MY GF ASKED FOR THEM.

I know received a txt from my GF saying she is sorry for taking our daughter to the church with out my approval. i told her a txt apology wont cut it. And here wer my demands (1) a 2 page paper 1st page on why its not ok t take our daughter to a place the other parent does not approve and the 2nd page on the pros to Asheley choosing her own religion at the correct age and (2) a promises that we will have a mitior real honest conversation about if, when, and how Asheley will be baptized and how and if religion will play a roll in her life.

I know I am cutting it close on this one but i know what is best formy girl and I know how to threw to my GF.

I am at a libery right now guys and it closes in 5 mins. i rushed this so sorry for poortyping and grammer. i will update when i can.
 
K

Kambing

Member
My 2 cents:

1. What do you think is best for you? So far It seems pretty spot on to say that you and your GF are incompatible as a couple.

2. What can you do for your child? No matter the outcome, it is your DUTY man to stay by your kids side. Regardless of the relationship you will have with the GF or soon to be ex, make sure you are there for your kid.

Lastly, I will also chime in to say that you seem to be taking the whole issue of baptism far too seriously. I realize you do not want your child to be "zombified" by religion but part of growing up involves being exposed to many things, good or bad. As long as you can be there for your kid and provide a different perspective when needed(about religion etc), I am sure she will turn out fine.

Good luck
 
L

Log4Girlz

Member
fifasnipe2224 said:
UPDATE
I just left from my GF house. Things went better then expected. her mom said hello to me in a sad but meaningful way. i went straight to my little girls room and held herfor about for about 20 minutes with my GF just watching me. Its not an easy moment for me since yesterday morning was the last time I saw her AND last night was the first night i was without her for the night. My GF started by saying how she was lonely being in front of church alone while all other children were being presented with both parents. I made it clear that my daughter should not have been up their in the first place. maybe later on.... maybe not at all, but definitely not with out my approval. She then went on to say my mom misses me, she loves me and she wanted me home. i have no real issue with my mom at this point. My problem is with my GF and my father.... and partially with my GF's family. I then simply asked her "it does not matter the location or the reason... but do you think its ok for you or me to take our daughter to a place that the other parent made it clear not to take her? Is ok for you to take Ashley to a place I said not too? OR for me to take her to a place you did not want her to be at??" She said NO, its not ok.

She was asking me to stay the night but I told her i cant see my self bing with her, at least no time soon.

She then asked what i wanted, I said I wanted SEVERAL apologies, I got most of the ones I asked for but not the major one. Sorry for taking our daughter to the 40 day introduction without your approval. She said she would never apologias. So I place Ashley in her basent, took a picture, went to go grab a few more blankets and left.

Her mom stopped me to say a few nice words especially stating how she never got involded or stated any opinions UNLESS MY GF ASKED FOR THEM.

I know received a txt from my GF saying she is sorry for taking our daughter to the church with out my approval. i told her a txt apology wont cut it. And here wer my demands (1) a 2 page paper 1st page on why its not ok t take our daughter to a place the other parent does not approve and the 2nd page on the pros to Asheley choosing her own religion at the correct age and (2) a promises that we will have a mitior real honest conversation about if, when, and how Asheley will be baptized and how and if religion will play a roll in her life.

I know I am cutting it close on this one but i know what is best formy girl and I know how to threw to my GF.

I am at a libery right now guys and it closes in 5 mins. i rushed this so sorry for poortyping and grammer. i will update when i can.
Click to expand...

Hope it turns out well for you.
 
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