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[lexi]

There is still a world of difference between the Tea Party and Abbott.

A small world. A moon, maybe.

 

[hidys]

A small world. A moon, maybe.

It's worth remembering that his political hero is Bob Santamaria (founder of the Democratic Labor Party). He is not a supporter of laissez-faire capitalism but obviously holds socially conservative views. He likely would never do anything so stupid as to prevent a governing party from raising the debt ceiling.

 

[bomma_man]

It's worth remembering that his political hero is Bob Santamaria (founder of the Democratic Labor Party). He is not a supporter of laissez-faire capitalism but obviously holds socially conservative views. He likely would never do anything so stupid as to prevent a governing party from raising the debt ceiling.

Yeah. You have to remember that Abbott is constrained by his party just as much (well, maybe not quite as much) as a Labor leader is. He might not care that much about corporate dick sucking, but the rest of his party sure does.

 

[Dead Man]

There goes whatever respect I had for Bob Carr:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/27/christine-milne-shipping-container-asylum

Greens leader Christine Milne is horrified by the prospect of piles of dead asylum seekers being found in shipping containers coming to Australia.

People smugglers in Indonesia are offering to transport asylum seekers in sealed shipping containers to get them to Australia or New Zealand, according to a Fairfax Media report.

Milne said the report demonstrated that cruel deterrence strategies were not working because increasingly desperate people might resort to even more desperate measures.

"What sends absolute shivers down my spine is ... we're going to find shipping containers on wharves in Australia and New Zealand and when they're opened we're going to find tragic scenes of a whole lot of people who have died," she told ABC TV on Sunday.

"This is what cruelty does."

She was worried some asylum seekers might take the risk.

"I wouldn't say people won't do it, they'll know it's dangerous," she said. "They'll want to believe that they'll only be in them until they're loaded on the ship and then allowed out."

Shipping containers have been used in people-trafficking operations in the UK and Europe.

Former foreign minister Bob Carr said the asylum seeker problem became the "biggest" issue against the Labor government.

"It was bigger than carbon pricing," he told Sky News on Sunday. "My advice to my former colleagues is absolutely crystal clear - you stick to the (PNG) Solution."

Carr warned new Labor leader Bill Shorten not to allow backbenchers to freelance and attack Tony Abbott's asylum seeker policy as inhumane.

"The electorate will read that ... as Labor going weak on the subject," he said.

 

[hidys]

Yeah. You have to remember that Abbott is constrained by his party just as much (well, maybe not quite as much) as a Labor leader is. He might not care that much about corporate dick sucking, but the rest of his party sure does.

Very true. At the end of the day he is a political animal more then anything else.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

There goes whatever respect I had for Bob Carr:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/27/christine-milne-shipping-container-asylum

Well it's true, with the Howard rhetoric and Abbott's election win, the dog whistling spreads like wildfire. Unique to Australian elections, arguably is how quickly the centre of attention this 'issue' becomes every election since 1996.

Labor probably won't soften their stance because this 'issue' is like, a Trap Card. A deadly one looking back at how much the media reported on it, regardless of truth or humanitarian obligations.

 

[Dead Man]

Well it's true, with the Howard rhetoric and Abbott's election win, the dog whistling spreads like wildfire. Unique to Australian elections, arguably is how quickly the centre of attention this 'issue' becomes every election since 1996.

Labor probably won't soften their stance because this 'issue' is like, a Trap Card. A deadly one looking back at how much the media reported on it, regardless of truth or humanitarian obligations.

If someone thinks the best answer is to continue to compete with how hardline you can be rather than seperating their position from that they are not only a wanker, but stupid to boot, since Abbott will win any cruelty contest.

It's not just unethical to continue to agree with the dog whistling, it will not get them elected either.

 

[roosters93]

Well it's true, with the Howard rhetoric and Abbott's election win, the dog whistling spreads like wildfire. Unique to Australian elections, arguably is how quickly the centre of attention this 'issue' becomes every election since 1996.

Labor probably won't soften their stance because this 'issue' is like, a Trap Card. A deadly one looking back at how much the media reported on it, regardless of truth or humanitarian obligations.

?

 

[CrazedProfessional]

It's not just unethical to continue to agree with the dog whistling, it will not get them elected either.

The electorate will fuck them, Abbott is a political robot; the first sign of a softening stance will activate initiative 666: THE BOATS WILL RETURN IF YOU VOTE LABOR

 

[Dead Man]

The electorate will fuck them, Abbott is a political robot; the first sign of a softening stance will activate initiative 666: THE BOATS WILL RETURN IF YOU VOTE LABOR

Maybe, but fuck Labor for playing that game. Abbott is an utter wanker who will quite happily go further and further in order to win. Playing that same game against him is not really much better.

 

[hidys]

?

Can we get this in Abbott/Shorten form?

 

[CrazedProfessional]

I don't think Shorten has many traps...

 

[hidys]

I'm not sure how many people here read crikey but there was a brilliant article on climate change from Bernard Keane (from a man who is usually pretty reserved in his arguments).

 

[i_am_ben]

I don't think Shorten has many traps...

He has got some spell cards though:

 

[roosters93]

Can we get this in Abbott/Shorten form?

My phenomenal paint skills:

I'm not sure how many people here read crikey but there was a brilliant article on climate change from Bernard Keane (from a man who is usually pretty reserved in his arguments).

"Climate inaction is thus a direct wealth transfer from our children and their children and subsequent generations to ourselves, in the higher costs of adaptation and reducing the emissions intensity of the Australian economy. "

That's a great line. You hear people saying we have to do it for our children and their children every now and again but not in those terms.

He has got some spell cards though:

hah

 

[CrazedProfessional]

He has got some spell cards though:

I would watch that duel, who wants to kickstarter for an animation team?

 

[Dryk]

The interesting part about driving them to shipping containers is that it will rack up a higher body count, it may prove harder to detect AND it makes them more likely to set foot on the mainland and trigger their extra rights.

Not only that but it starts edging them closer to the asylum seekers that catch a plane here with no visa and claim asylum. This is going to get politically messy and potentially draw attention to the other asylum seekers that get brushed under the rug.

EDIT: Also if we start receiving regular shipments of dead refugees the rest of the world will probably sit up and take notice.

 

[Shaneus]

I would watch that duel, who wants to kickstarter for an animation team?

If the Abbott one had any more frames, it would be more animated than the real thing.

 

[Jintor]

EDIT: Also if we start receiving regular shipments of dead refugees the rest of the world will probably sit up and take notice.

If Tony bothers to tell anybody about them, of course.

 

[Arksy]

If Tony bothers to tell anybody about them, of course.

It's going to be pretty difficult to conceal that sort of thing.

 

[Jintor]

I could've said the same thing about boats arriving on Christmas Island or Nauru but he went for that anyway

 

[Arksy]

I could've said the same thing about boats arriving on Christmas Island or Nauru but he went for that anyway

True. We do know when boats are coming though because the people living on Christmas Island have set up twitter accounts to report that sort of thing as they see it.

Dead smuggled refugees are a whole different ballgame to a bunch of people arriving in a country without visas.

 

[Dead Man]

Woo hoo, lets prevent Australian citizens from returning to Australia! And there's my mate Bob Carr there again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-28/morrison-watching-australians-fighting-in-syria/5050118

Immigration Minister Scott Morrison says he expects there would be bipartisan support for any move to block Australians who have been fighting in Syria from returning to this country.

Spy agency ASIO says about 200 Australians have taken up arms in the Syrian civil war.

Former foreign affairs minister Bob Carr says that while in government, he sought advice on how to block Australian citizens from returning home after fighting in Syria, but was told it could not legally be done.

He has urged the current government to revisit the idea.

Speaking to Sky News, Mr Morrison said the Federal Government was concerned about Australians involved in the Syria conflict returning to "disrupt the significant social cohesion we have in this country".

"We don't want that in Australia, we just don't want it in Australia, and I agree with Senator Carr on that," he said.

"I'm sure there'd be broad-based support across Parliament to ensure that these sorts of things were not imported back into Australia."

Mr Morrison says he would expect bipartisan support in Parliament for any action taken by the Government.

"We are keeping a very close watch on this, a very close watch and I've had consultations before the election where Islamic communities in Australia have raised this with me, in particular about people returning, that they wouldn't want to see a return," he said.

The Labor MP Michael Danby first raised the issue last week.

Blocking return could force fighters underground

Dr Malet says Senator Carr's concerns about radicalisation are justified.

"Some security officials from the European Union have looked at the smaller numbers of Europeans who've gone and said not everyone's radical when they go to Syria but most of them probably are when they come back," he said.

"And we've seen some examples of the potential for blowback against Australia before.

"You had four Australians who went to fight in Somalia and wanted to use their skills that they gained there to blow up the Holsworthy Army Barracks.

"So there's certainly the potential and you can understand why any politician would say 'I'm not leaving anything to chance, let's minimise the risk of anybody coming back and committing a terrorist act.'"

But Dr Malet says there would be legal problems with stopping Australian citizens from returning to Australia.

"It's probably not legal. If somebody's a citizen I don't know that you can keep them from returning [to] Australia," he said.

"You could look at stripping them of their citizenship which is what some Arab states have done to foreign fighters.

"But then they're just sort of left floating out there on the global stage and they become a perpetual problem."

Dr Malet says rather than blocking people from returning to Australia, the Government should monitor them after their return.

"Most counter-terrorism operations actually involve just monitoring people until they become an imminent threat," he said.

"So rather than driving people underground, it's probably best just to keep a low profile and watch what they do."

 

[hidys]

Woo hoo, lets prevent Australian citizens from returning to Australia! And there's my mate Bob Carr there again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-28/morrison-watching-australians-fighting-in-syria/5050118

I will be glad to see the back of Carr. Oh and Danby is scum too, why he is still here I will never know.

 

[Arksy]

Woo hoo, lets prevent Australian citizens from returning to Australia! And there's my mate Bob Carr there again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-28/morrison-watching-australians-fighting-in-syria/5050118

God. It's like on both sides of politics we have morons who have zero perspective of history and the constitution and how government is supposed to work.

No, sorry Carr & Morrison. A citizen has ABSOLUTE right of entry into the country. Fuck you and your illiberal attempts at bullshit.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

Labor is expected to support axing the carbon tax, with senior figures - including leader Bill Shorten - now convinced that its case for action on climate change is more easily sold if the politically "toxic" tax is abolished.

The Opposition has been wrestling with the repeal of the tax, with some saying it must hold the line to show voters and demoralised supporters it still stands for something. But party leaders have progressed their thinking to consider what the party will put to voters in the lead-up to the next election.

They argue that Labor proposed to "terminate" the tax at the election and to simply block its repeal would allow the government to continue to punish it politically.

Mr Shorten is also worried an endless focus on the carbon tax would distract from serious flaws in the government's $3.2 billion Direct Action policy, which Labor will oppose.

Direct Action uses taxpayer funds to pay polluters to start reducing emissions and pay for other initiatives in forestry, carbon capture, and recycling.

A survey of economists by Fairfax Media found only two out of 35 supported Direct Action over an emissions trading scheme.

Labor will continue to back some form of carbon pricing but reserves the right to deliver its policy closer to the election. In the meantime, it will scrutinise Direct Action, independent analysis of which suggests it won't be able to reduce emissions by 5 per cent in 2020, a bipartisan goal, without more funding, something expressly ruled out by Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

A senior Labor source said the party would not countenance weakening the target, amid concern that the draft legislation to repeal the carbon tax changes the status of the 5 per cent reduction from a legally enforceable cap to merely an aspiration.

"We are happy to get rid of the tax but we do think there should be a cap on pollution," said a Labor insider.

The Climate Change Authority will release its recommendations for Australia’s emissions cuts target on Wednesday morning. The independent advisory body may recommend that the 5 per cent cut be revised upward to 10 or 15 per cent. It will also assess the nation’s progress towards its short and medium term emissions cuts.

Mr Abbott has made the repeal of the carbon tax his legislative priority when Parliament resumes in three weeks. He urged Labor to "repent" and support the government. Multiple Labor sources acknowledged there had been a shift since the election.

Even so, shadow cabinet is yet to finalise Labor’s position and the party also wants to see the final shape of the government’s legislation before finally committing to its position.

Labor’s climate change spokesman Mark Butler hinted strongly on the weekend that the option of allowing the repeal bills through was being actively considered, revealing the final policy "will be informed by the fact that we took to the last election a commitment ourselves to terminate the carbon tax".

John Scales from JWS Research said polling showed that the carbon tax had dominated the climate change debate in recent years and undermined support for action.

He said the tax was widely seen through the prism of former prime minister Julia Gillard’s broken promise when she introduced the impost, as well as its impact on electricity and other prices.

Mr Abbott has already begun calling Mr Shorten "Electricity Bill" as he goads him to support the repeal of the tax.

With it gone, Mr Scales reckoned that Labor would have the clear air to make direct action the target and develop its alternative.

I warned ya'll about Shorten. I told you this would happen

 

[bomma_man]

You can't spell beat without be

 

[hidys]

I warned ya'll about Shorten. I told you this would happen

The logic that certain senior figures seem to be employing is that firstly if they repeal the tax they can move towards an ETS and secondly if they vote for repeal they can focus on the direct action scheme.

To the first I say that if this tax is repealed there will be no ETS ever. They will have effectively killed any chance of doing anything serious about climate change and Australia will never meet its 5% target. Not only this but the tax only lasts until 2015 anyway when the ETS comes in.

To the second if Abbott gets a whiff that introducing direct action will cause him damage politically, he will scrap it. If he does this he will face only minimal political backlash as no individual really supports it. And those who claim to support it only do so in bad faith really because they either don't believe it is happening or they don't care.

In the process of all this they will bleed a shit load of votes to the Greens.

 

[bobnowhere]

The logic that certain senior figures seem to be employing is that firstly if they repeal the tax they can move towards an ETS and secondly if they vote for repeal they can focus on the direct action scheme.

To the first I say that if this tax is repealed there will be no ETS ever. They will have effectively killed any chance of doing anything serious about climate change and Australia will never meet its 5% target.

To the second if Abbott gets a whiff that introducing direct action will cause him damage politically, he will scrap it. If he does this he will face only minimal political backlash as no individual really supports it. And those who claim to support it only do so in bad faith really because they either don't believe it is happening or they don't care.

In the process of all this they will bleed a shit load of votes to the Greens.

I suspect the left leaning general membership are already pissed off enough at the Victorian Right "buying" up Victorian left members in the caucus vote, just enough to overcome the lack of membership support for the right. This could push the membership over the edge.

Everyone knows what the greens stand for, what the Labor Left stands for, what small "l" Libs stand for and what the far right Minchin Libs stand for and even what the crazies like Bernardi stand for. On the other hand no one really knows what the Labor right stands for apart from getting and staying elected a affliction they seem to share with Abbott, maybe that old DLP link coming out?

 

[hidys]

I suspect the left leaning general membership are already pissed off enough at the Victorian Right "buying" up Victorian left members in the caucus vote, just enough to overcome the lack of membership support for the right. This could push the membership over the edge.

Everyone knows what the greens stand for, what the Labor Left stands for, what small "l" Libs stand for and what the far right Minchin Libs stand for and even what the crazies like Bernardi stand for. On the other hand no one really knows what the Labor right stands for apart from getting and staying elected a affliction they seem to share with Abbott, maybe that old DLP link coming out?

I don't know anything about this.

 

[Arksy]

Eh, we'll have an ETS next time the ALP is in power.....

 

[lexi]

Eh, we'll have an ETS next time the ALP is in power.....

Assuming the planet / ecosystem hasn't completely collapsed cause of catastrophic climate change.

 

[hirokazu]

What the fuck. What a bunch of wimps. Fuck off Bill Shorten. You can easily oppose the carbon tax repeal with the Greens. This just let's Abbott say he was right all along.

 

[D.Lo]

I don't know anything about this.

The caucus members from the left who voted for Shorten.

 

[hidys]

The caucus members from the left who voted for Shorten.

He claimed that the Victorian left was somehow "bought." I wasn't aware who from the left actually ended up voting for Shorten other than Laurie Ferguson (whose reasons for hating Albo go way back) and those associated with him but he is from NSW.

Eh, we'll have an ETS next time the ALP is in power.....

Assuming Labor comes back into power anytime in the near future. There isn't exactly a guarantee (in fact it is unlikely) they will be in power before 2020 and it is extremely unlikely that if they get back in before then, we could not possibly meet the 5% target for emissions reduction.

EDIT: Unless you were being sarcastic.

 

[bobnowhere]

I don't know anything about this.

I probably shouldn't have used "buying", more like were given various promises and were seen to see the benefits of having a federal leader from Victoria. I can't imagine the Victorian hard liners like Kim Carr "crossed over", but plenty of the soft-left did and this leaked to South Australia as well I imagine. It was more a comment on the right, while being in the minority in the membership kept a hard caucus and have always played the game harder and won as a result.

The right have always been more disciplined, hell even Anna Burke (right) voted for Shorten and then threw a massive wobbly when she didn't get the job she wanted, while the left can be a little like herding cats at times and are split internally into 2 more factions that don't particularly like each other adding to the havoc. I imagine Rudd was the only nominally right member to vote against Shorten, but it's not like he gives a fuck anymore anyway.

 

[markot]

Police Minister Jack Dempsey says locals who do not pass criminal history checks will be denied access to the restricted zones and alternative accommodation will be provided at the cost of a few hundred dollars.

"If there are people who the authorities think will put the operation at risk, those people will be advised they will not be able to go into those restricted areas," he said.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/qld-parliament-passes-g20-security-laws/5056952

qlddddddd

 

[Dead Man]

Police Minister Jack Dempsey says locals who do not pass criminal history checks will be denied access to the restricted zones and alternative accommodation will be provided at the cost of a few hundred dollars.

"If there are people who the authorities think will put the operation at risk, those people will be advised they will not be able to go into those restricted areas," he said.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/qld-parliament-passes-g20-security-laws/5056952

qlddddddd

Are you fucking kidding me? What the fuck is going on in QLD?

Opposition police spokesman Bill Byrne told Parliament last night the legislation should have gone further.

"I am somewhat surprised that some of the offence provisions have quite light sentences attached, and I consider the boundaries of the restricted and declared areas to be minimalist," Mr Byrne said.

WHAT THE FUCK?

 

[markot]

Newman unrepentant after judge adjourns alleged bikie's bail hearing over judiciary comments
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...es-bail-application-over-newman-comme/5058222

QLD is so awful. How awful is it? Its QLD.

 

[hidys]

Newman unrepentant after judge adjourns alleged bikie's bail hearing over judiciary comments
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...es-bail-application-over-newman-comme/5058222

QLD is so awful. How awful is it? Its QLD.

Campbell Newman is the worst Premier of any state in many years.

 

[Elaugaufein]

This is why unicameral legislatures are a bad thing. It gives complete free reign for the worst impulses until the next election.

 

[Arksy]

This is why unicameral legislatures are a bad thing. It gives complete free reign for the worst impulses until the next election.

It's not unicameralism. It's crackpot morons like Newman and Bleijie.

 

[hidys]

It's not unicameralism. It's crackpot morons like Newman and Bleijie.

It's both.

 

[Arksy]

It's both.

All provinces of Canada, not to mention the NT and ACT are also unicameral legislatures.

If you want to blame this on unicameralism, fine but you have to explain how the other legislatures named above also suffer from the same problem.

 

[bobnowhere]

This is why unicameral legislatures are a bad thing. It gives complete free reign for the worst impulses until the next election.

The Kiwi's do a pretty good job with theirs. Though they've sort of combined two houses into one with both electorates and proportional representation playing a part. Along with a far more socially progressive political culture, they're doing alright across the ditch.

 

[hidys]

All provinces of Canada, not to mention the NT and ACT are also unicameral legislatures.

If you want to blame this on unicameralism, fine but you have to explain how the other legislatures named above also suffer from the same problem.

The issue with unicameralism is that it gives a governing party the power to do what ever they want without effective checks and balances. I would only support if it came with proportional representation which in fact the ACT does have.

 

[Arksy]

The issue with unicameralism is that it gives a governing party the power to do what ever they want without effective checks and balances. I would only support if it came with proportional representation which in fact the ACT does have.

I agree that a bicameral parliament is a good check and balance against an arbitrary exercise of power, it's just not the only one around. Recall elections, citizens initiative and citizens repeal would be a good balance with a unicameral system.

Edit: Oh yeah proportional representation would also be good in a unicameral system.

 

[markot]

Yeah, you cant blame QLDs problems on unicamalism.

QLD is whiggidy.

Also a big part of the problem Australia wide is that we dont elect people, we just get sick of the last lot. So we have constant huge swings that enable the more fringey elements, especially in a place like QLD. Its taken as a huge mandate to govern, when in reality, it was just a rejection of the last lot.

 

[Dead Man]

All provinces of Canada, not to mention the NT and ACT are also unicameral legislatures.

If you want to blame this on unicameralism, fine but you have to explain how the other legislatures named above also suffer from the same problem.

They don't have wankers like Newman. It takes both to fuck something up. If they do end up electing crackpots, they might be in strife. Canada also has a rather good bill of rights (Charter of Rights and Freedoms, not the actual bill they introduced in the 60's called the Bill of Rights) which we don't, which helps a lot. If we had one, you may have a point. We don't. I would rather a system that reduces the likelihood of a crackpot being able to enforce an insane policy on people. A unicameral system will not cause chaos overnight, but if a wanker gets elected, they will cause chaos in a unicameral system. It's like having a speed limit. Most people most of the time could drive faster than the highway limit safely. The limit is there for the times and conditions when it would be a problem if somebody was dirving too fast. In this case, having a house of review is like putting the brakes on crackpots. Not a perfect analogy, but I'm tired and at work, so it'll have to do

I agree that a bicameral parliament is a good check and balance against an arbitrary exercise of power, it's just not the only one around. Recall elections, citizens initiative and citizens repeal would be a good balance with a unicameral system.

None of which Australia or QLD has. If you want a unicameral system, you need a set of checks in place first, not after.

The Kiwi's do a pretty good job with theirs. Though they've sort of combined two houses into one with both electorates and proportional representation playing a part. Along with a far more socially progressive political culture, they're doing alright across the ditch.

I thought they got around the problems by having two seperate electoral processes, to make sure they had good minority group representation. Could be wrong, don't know much about their system.

 

[Arksy]

None of which Australia or QLD has. If you want a unicameral system, you need a set of checks in place first, not after.

My political goals, if I had political aspirations would be to put these things into place, and open primaries.

Chances of that happening ever? Close to zero.