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Australia tour of South Africa |OT| Battle of the Batsmen

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A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
For serious though, hope McLaren is OK. Concussion is no joke and that bouncer that got him was one of the nastiest I've seen, even though he ducked into it.
 
J

Jables Swan

Member
Didn't get to catch any of the first test bar an hour or so first day. Great result and sounds like a great effort. Johnson, Marsh, Dools and Smith excellent work. Good to see.

Hopefully this means Watson stays out for now. If Marsh and Dools can continue to perform I would like to see them keep him out.
 
O

Omikron

Member
Antiwhippy said:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-australia-2013-14/content/story/720353.html

Isn't this basically doctoring the pitch?

Since when did the groundsmen consult with the home team to make pitches that they want?
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Teams have always produced pitches to benefit the home team.

That said, not sure a green pitch helps either side more than the other. This will surely bring Harris and in particular Siddle back into the equation. South Africa really do seem overly focused on Johnson...
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Huh, I guess I'm more used to the way australia does it where each ground had their own historical characteristics, though nowadays it also has to deal with drop-ins to accommodate the AFL season. I don't think I've ever heard the groundsmen publicly saying that they're consulting the home team to create an advantage.
 
R

reptilescorpio

Member
Antiwhippy said:
I don't I've ever heard the groundsmen publicly saying that their consulting the home team to create an advantage.
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I think I remember complaints last time we were in India, not sure if it was words from the groundskeeper though since our media tends to drum up that shit anyway.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Goddamn my grammar in that sentence is embarrassing. :p

Yeah I've heard complaints about doctoring when it comes to indian pitches, but most of the time it's people accusing them moreso than them publicly saying it themselves if I remember.
 
E

elfinke

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Huh, I guess I'm more used to the way australia does it where each ground had their own historical characteristics, though nowadays it also has to deal with drop-ins to accommodate the AFL season. I don't think I've ever heard the groundsmen publicly saying that they're consulting the home team to create an advantage.
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One of my favourite features of the International Cricket Captain management games was the ability to consult with the curator to fix a pitch how you wanted for County games. I loved it.

It's also a great feature that was eventually added into the Football Manager series (width/length of pitch and how wet to have the grass).
 
C

chicko1983

Member
It is not unusual for the coach, selectors, captain and bowlers to meet with the groundsmen before the pitch is finally prepared anywhere in the world.

However, in Australia, the groundsmen usually prepare it their own way and let the home team know how they think it will play, rather than the home team dictate to them how they want it prepared. They do not generally tell or give that advice to the opposition teams.

Source - I know Les Burdett (Adelaide Oval head groundsman for ages, recently retired).

Elsewhere, it seems like the cricket board and selectors have more input into the preparation of the pitches to suit their players more.

I honestly don't care how it is done either way. That is the advantage of playing at home.

It also makes winning away much more satsifying. Can you imagine the celebration when the Indians finally win an away series outside of the subcontinent.

It was massive when Aussies finally won in India, massive when the Poms beat us at home, massive when SA won in Australia.

The difficulty in winning away from home, and the satisfaction from doing it, makes test cricket more enjoyable in my opinion.

I wouldnt want it to be the same pitches everywhere or easy to win away from home.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Huh, alright. It's nice to know how it works elsewhere. I guess I was naive about it working like how it does over here.

Still, good point about the home advantage. Though the only thing I'm worried about if it's a greentop is whether our batsmen are up to task. I'm sure our bowlers would love a greentop, but most seam bowlers do. :p
 
T

toddhunter

Member
If I was doing it, I'd order an absolute road for the next two tests.

Basically Johnson is going to Johnson so it doesn't really matter what sort of pitch you have at the moment. At least a flat pitch might wear him down a bit.

Meanwhile it nullifies the rest of the Australian attack which puts even more pressure on Johnson.

Sure it hurts the SA bowlers as well, but I think it would help their batsmen a lot more than Australia's. Australia have been one wicket away from collapsing all summer, and having the patience to cash in isn't going to suddenly come from nowhere.
 
C

chicko1983

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Huh, alright. It's nice to know how it works elsewhere. I guess I was naive about it working like how it does over here.

Still, good point about the home advantage. Though the only thing I'm worried about if it's a greentop is whether our batsmen are up to task. I'm sure our bowlers would love a greentop, but most seam bowlers do. :p
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I did say that "elsewhere, it seems like the cricket board and selectors have more input into the preparation of the pitches to suit their players more" becuase I honestly don't know how it operates overseas.

I also know that Pat Howard did issue a memo to Australian groundstaff to make the pitches around Australia less bowler friendly. In the recent years, the first class batting averages had dropped and the Argus review (I think) claimed possible reasons for this was that groundsmen were making it hard to bat on so that home teams could get more outright results. Tasmania had been getting the most outright results, and this also saw a general climb by their team up the shield ladder.

So Pat Howard, the CA performance manager, wanted the pitches to favour batsmen more so that young batsmen got time out in the middle and learnt how to build an innings.

I don't know how much it was taken on board by the groundsman, but the averages have increased this year and wickets per deliveries has decreased.

I wouldnt call this "doctoring" as the pitches still retained their natural characteristics.

Doctoring, to me, is when the pitch is deliberately prepared to display characteristics which it wouldnt otherwise display if it was prepared fairly.

You are obviously going to get natural variation in pitches due to the grass used and the type of clay used, that is why there are differences around Australia.

But forcing a pitch to be a different pace or bounce to what it would "naturally" be by varying the amount of grass, watering amount, and length of grass is what I am against. Mainly because the toss becomes too important to win because those "doctored" pitches tend to deteriorate much quicker.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Wouldn't that be the case for the port elizabeth pitch? I haven't seen any matches from there, but from what I know it's supposed to be more of a slow turner?

Still, it would be interesting to see if philander becomes a factor with the green top.
 
G

giri

Member
toddhunter said:
If I was doing it, I'd order an absolute road for the next two tests.

Basically Johnson is going to Johnson so it doesn't really matter what sort of pitch you have at the moment. At least a flat pitch might wear him down a bit.

Meanwhile it nullifies the rest of the Australian attack which puts even more pressure on Johnson.

Sure it hurts the SA bowlers as well, but I think it would help their batsmen a lot more than Australia's. Australia have been one wicket away from collapsing all summer, and having the patience to cash in isn't going to suddenly come from nowhere.
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I wouldn't.

Isn't lyon considerably better than their spinner?

Steyn/Morkel/Philander vs Mitch/Harris/Siddle is basically a wash in the above, so it would come down to a contest of which batsmen give away wickets, and, who has the better spinner.

Considering that the Aussies are up 1-0, and two draws would give them the series. I wouldn't be ordering absolute roads at all, and praying for the opponents to stuff up.

I'd rather let the pitches be themselves, and let local knowledge and execution of those plans, come to the fore.

By ordering absolute roads, you basically nullify the home ground advantage.
 
C

chicko1983

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Wouldn't that be the case for the port elizabeth pitch? I haven't seen any matches from there, but from what I know it's supposed to be more of a slow turner?

Still, it would be interesting to see if philander becomes a factor with the green top.
Click to expand...

Its the degree in which the curator changes the characteristics by. He is allowed to cut the grass at different lengths or change the amount he waters and it won't majorly change the way the pitch behavours if they are all prepared to last 5 days.

If he was leaving so much grass on there that the pitch would give up significantly more wickets than usual and it is unlikely the match will last 5 days as it is too hard to bat on, then it is a bad pitch and unfairly prepared in my opinion.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
giri said:
Steyn/Morkel/Philander vs Mitch/Harris/Siddle is basically a wash in the above, so it would come down to a contest of which batsmen give away wickets, and, who has the better spinner.
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Correct and I would back SA to not give away their wickets. Lyon is a better spinner, but not by all that much. In fact Peterson is basically a defensive option, so would come into his own bowling negatively to Australian batsmen with no patience.

Let Amla and ABD score 400 and then see how they go. I still don't think Australia will bat out a day to save a test.
 
C

chicko1983

Member
toddhunter said:
Correct and I would back SA to not give away their wickets. Lyon is a better spinner, but not by all that much. In fact Peterson is basically a defensive option, so would come into his own bowling negatively to Australian batsmen with no patience.

Let Amla and ABD score 400 and then see how they go. I still don't think Australia will bat out a day to save a test.
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I dont think Amla and ABD will bat out a day against this attack either. ABD looked great yes, but Johnson did him twice with slower balls and ABD averaged 26 against MJ.

This tactic of wearing out the bowlers on a slower track was similar to what England had planned would happen in the Adelaide test: Cook, Bell, Pieterson would bat for a day or more and then the Aussie bowlers will be worn out from the slow pitch and batting will get even easier etc.....

The fact of the matter was that over the course of the Ashes, Mitch bowled almost as many overs as Anderson. Harris bowled more overs than Broad and Siddle was not far behind.

The Aussie bowlers are conditioned well and I think they will be able to toil on a slower deck.

Also, Mitch doesnt need quick pitches to still intimidate. His best bowling was in Adelaide.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
chicko1983 said:
Also, Mitch doesnt need quick pitches to still intimidate. His best bowling was in Adelaide.
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True, but I don't think he is going to do that every time.

I don't know, call me pessimistic but I still see this Australian side as one big partnership away from cracking.

Sooner or later on good pitches that has to happen.
 
C

chicko1983

Member
toddhunter said:
True, but I don't think he is going to do that every time.

I don't know, call me pessimistic but I still see this Australian side as one big partnership away from cracking.

Sooner or later on good pitches that has to happen.
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yeah and conversly I am optimistic.

Clarkey is world class. Warner and Smith are getting there.

Rogers, Doolan, Marsh have all shown recent good form.

Haddin is a very good keeper batsman.

Then we have the best tail in the world - Johnson, Harris, Siddle and Lyon.

As for our bad top order form during the Ashes, I think Anderson and Broad would be picked in the starting XI for pretty much every test nation baring SA and Australia (though Broad would probably get in both teams).

Their big problem was when those two were in their third and fourth spells after batsmen like Smith, Haddin and the tail had been in for a little bit and they were tired.
 
G

giri

Member
toddhunter said:
Correct and I would back SA to not give away their wickets. Lyon is a better spinner, but not by all that much. In fact Peterson is basically a defensive option, so would come into his own bowling negatively to Australian batsmen with no patience.

Let Amla and ABD score 400 and then see how they go. I still don't think Australia will bat out a day to save a test.
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There are batsmen in the AU team that can bat as patiently as any. Clarke and Rogers spring immediately to mind.

And giving warner a flat track to bat aggressively on is maybe not the best decision either.

It seems like giving up a lot, to play a really negative brand of cricket, and to win in only one way, but draw in many.

Basically, you've conceded that AU are the better team, and are admitting that your team isn't up to winning tests, but hope the other is able to lose them. That's not a great message to send.
 
I

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
I think lately the resurgence in Australian Cricket has to do with the team going for the WIN. It's got the fans excited you only have to look at the Ashes, million + people AT the games alone.

Don't know if its all down to Clarke but yeah, makes it a hell of a lot more interesting to watch.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Hmm, sounds like pretty bad conditions to bat first actually. Overcast, lights coming on, mitchell johnson...

Also philander with a niggle.
 
R

reptilescorpio

Member
Jeez Smith has had a shit series. All bluster without any success from his first 3 innings. Hopefully his captaincy isn't as complacent as it was last match.

Looks like Harris is in his element for sure!
 
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