Support NeoGAF

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

They do have to, that's out of the question. Locals should meet them halfway though and that just doesn't happen all that much.

And it's kind of oppressive to disregard the fact that some women do this shit outta choice. That they do it after doing research and choose to wear a burqa. Because they can.

I may not like it, but I won't say "Don't wear that, I'll save you!" Cuz that's fucking dumb

This is a strawman argument but there've been more than few cases here of women joining ISIS willingly, trying to travel to Syria and marry one of their fighters. If authorities realize it they don't just let them go to get raped and remarried whenever their husband dies.

 

[psychowave]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

I ask again, why do you think that this "choice" is exclusively made by women? Why don't men ever choose to wear a burqa?

I also like this whole "dumb Europeans can't handle people from different cultures!" attitude. Whatever makes you guys feel better in these trying times I suppose.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

I approve this.

 

[Azih]

Societies regulate a lot of things people want to do by choice.

And they should have good reasons to do so and do so in a way that makes society better. This fails both those criteria.

 

[UrbanRats]

Being able to understand and appreciate differences is a part of growing.

I don't think you have to "appreciate" the Burqa to be against the ban.
I just find it very weird to force freedom on someone, even when it goes against their personal free will.

 

[the_batman]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

why would you escape your shithole country just to bring those shithole ideas with you?

Hooooooo boooooooy! Good ol' tolerant "fuck your shithole country" Europe, ladies and gentlemen!

let me elaborate since you've taken it literally. i'm American btw, a son of muslim immigrants. what i mean is that people who have fled from their countries struggling with corruption, rampant abuse, intolerance and other negative things shouldn't bring those same values with them. there's a reason they chose, or were chosen, to refuge in a certain country and it's because they'll be treated more properly and can live their lives better.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

I don't think you have to "appreciate" the Burqa to be against the ban.
I just find it very weird to force freedom on someone, even when it goes against their personal free will.

Poorly worded, appreciate or understand that things may be different.

Exactly though. Fuck paternalism.

why would you escape your shithole country just to bring those shithole ideas with you?

Hooooooo boooooooy! Good ol' tolerant "fuck your shithole country" Europe, ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Azih]

I ask again, why do you think that this "choice" is exclusively made by women? Why don't men ever choose to wear a burqa?

For the same reason men don't tend to wear skirts or one piece bathing suits.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

While all of that is true, societal norms and expectations always end up with regulation and laws around them. Other than living in a state of anarchy, no one is ever free to just do as they damn please. Hence why we debate things like the burqa, especially due to its ties to Islamism, ISIS and a history of oppression.

Except it's wearing what they traditionally have worn. It's not intellectually equivalent to walking down the street naked as you "damn well please". You can't recklessly wear a burqa, because it doesn't harm anyone else.

 

[Metrotab]

Because I am a Muslim who thinks women should be able to wear what they choose in a society that values personal liberty.

The Burqa is completely antithetical to the value you hold. It indicates a deeply mysoginist, oppressive view of women. That some women choose to wear it does not counteract that - many religious women in the US uphold mysoginist practices such as anti-abortion laws.

Unfortunately for you, the burqa is considered a cultural practice tied up with your religion. I understand that this aggrieves you in your identity as a Muslim.

But that's not my problem. Islam will not be a shield for oppressive practices in European societies. If you disagree, feel free to vote for cultural relativists in the election booth.

 

[Audioboxer]

And they should have good reasons to do so and do so in a way that makes society better. This fails both those criteria.

Decisions made aren't always going to please everyone. You say it fails on both, others might think it succeeds. So we end up with what we have, societies which have different laws and regulations.

The European courts have already agreed bans will be upheld, so when you don't have legal recourse it does tend to come down to you having to choose where you want to live if it is that much of a deal breaker. That isn't to say decisions cannot be criticised, but you have to be honest with yourself and take note of what I said, different societies may well have different laws and regulations.

Except it's wearing what they traditionally have worn. It's not intellectually equivalent to walking down the street naked as you "damn well please". You can't recklessly wear a burqa, because it doesn't harm anyone else.

Objectively it harms how we monitor our society with things such as CCTV. You cannot be identified at all.

Socially it harms integration as like it or not very few people are going to be able to interact with you.

Traditions often come under scrutiny. Simply saying I could do this in country X, or I could do this at one time, is not a complete hand-wave to progressive changes. All throughout history traditions have been changed, adapted or even outright made illegal.

 

[Soph]

For the same reason men don't tend to wear skirts or one piece bathing suits.

Kilts are very manly and diving costumes are still one piece right?

 

[MadJackChurchill]

The Burqa is completely antithetical to the value you hold. It indicates a deeply mysoginist, oppressive view of women. That some women choose to wear it does not counteract that - many religious women in the US uphold mysoginist practices such as anti-abortion laws.

You can choose to not get an abortion.

You should be able to choose to wear a burqa. See how your argument falls on its face?

 

[Whompa02]

Why are some people saying "good?" You guys gunna ban Clown masks next?

Ridiculous.

 

[la_briola]

For the same reason men don't tend to wear skirts or one piece bathing suits.

You were saying?

 

[Greddleok]

While I dislike the burka, I think it's kind of uncomfortable to ban it outright.

"You're not oppressed anymore! Do what I say to prove it!"

In places of business, when driving or in official buildings, yeah, I think one should have one's face visible, but on the street, just walking about, who cares? Some people act like every back robber comes in wearing a burka.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

You were saying?

So Scotland represents the entire world now?

 

[Bollocks]

Is there a GAF defence Force for this sort of shit posting? Why don't you try to read the thread?

What? I've read the thread and I'm shocked about the amount of people who would outright defend the burqa in the very first few replies.
I thought if there's one thing we can all agree on is that radical symbols have no place in today's society.

Plus in Austria like in other first world countries they already strife for equal rights/pay so they are too far advanced to be discussing if it is ok to put your partner in a burqa.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So Scotland represents the entire world now?

that's many more people than would be affected by this ban.

 

[AntChum]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

It's a load of bollocks espoused by people who themselves probably don't entirely adhere to a culture/nation's standards and values. Heck, in Britain, we always like to remind ourselves how we're an open and tolerant society, while simultaneously frothing at the mouth over Eastern Europeans stealing our jobs and those damn refugees.

'Don't break the law and pay your taxes' should be the start and end of the integration argument, but too much of the time do people want the government to force their own nonsensical values on others.

 

[LionPride]

why would you escape your shithole country just to bring those shithole ideas with you?



let me elaborate since you've taken it literally. i'm American btw, a son of muslim immigrants. what i mean is that people who have fled from their countries struggling with corruption, rampant abuse, intolerance and other negative things shouldn't bring those same values with them. there's a reason they chose, or were chosen, to refuge in a certain country and it's because they'll be treated more properly and can live their lives better.

If it is part of they religion, that's a thing regardless of what country.

I ask again, why do you think that this "choice" is exclusively made by women? Why don't men ever choose to wear a burqa?

I also like this whole "dumb Europeans can't handle people from different cultures!" attitude. Whatever makes you guys feel better in these trying times I suppose.

Don't worry, it ain't just European. Yall ain't special at all...

They do have to, that's out of the question. Locals should meet them halfway though and that just doesn't happen all that much.

This is a strawman argument but there've been more than few cases here of women joining ISIS willingly, trying to travel to Syria and marry one of their fighters. If authorities realize it they don't just let them go to get raped and remarried whenever their husband dies.

I don't think it's a strawman at all when there have been cases of women willingly wearing burqas or at the very least defending the ability to wear one

 

[sohois]

Have many of the posters in this thread suddenly converted to libertarianism?

In a society, a great deal of laws already exist that limit individual choice for the benefit of the society at large.

Take firearms, for example. There are undoubtedly people that would like to own guns, for entirely personal reasons and they would have no impact on anyone else. Plenty of gun owners in the US are completely responsible, with no negative impact on anyone else due to their gun ownership. However, inevitably, there are those who are not responsible, who do have an impact on society and as such many nations choose to restrict gun ownership to prevent crime, gun deaths and mass shooting and so on. For those who would be fully responsible gun owners this isn't fair, they are losing out simply because other people can't be trusted. However the people of these nations still realize that the costs to those who cannot exercise freedom to own firearms are fully outweighed by the benefits to society of restricting ownership.

One might say that guns are completely different since they can actively harm others, but you could just as easily make the same point with various illegal drugs. Heroin, or Ketamine or such like won't directly affect others but are still restricted. There are probably people out there that could take such drugs, fully aware of the risks, in a very controlled and careful manner and not come to any harm, but because there will inevitably be those that do harm themselves, the drugs are made illegal.

A burqa ban ends up the same. A handful of woman might wear them entirely of their own choice and prefer to have the option. But, on balance, the small cost to these woman of not being able to wear it is completely outweighed by the benefits to the many woman who do not choose to wear it and have a slight increase in freedom as a result.

So unless there are a great deal of posters who suddenly like the libertarian position that everything should be legal and available, I believe a number of people are probably somewhat hypocritical.

 

[the_batman]

Why are some people saying "good?" You guys gunna ban Clown masks next?

Ridiculous.

people aren't forced to wear clown masks though

If it is part of they religion, that's a thing regardless of what country.

..like i said earlier, it's NOT a part of Islam. quran just says to dress modestly, for both men and women, it never says you have to wear something like a burqa

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I don't think it's a strawman at all when there have been cases of women willingly wearing burqas or at the very least defending the ability to wear one

I meant my example is the strawman

 

[LionPride]

people aren't forced to wear clown masks though

And people can choose to wear burqas

 

[psychowave]

For the same reason men don't tend to wear skirts or one piece bathing suits.

Patriarchy and gender roles?

Don't worry, it ain't just European. Yall ain't special at all...

So you refuse to do any sort of critical thought, ok then.

 

[Whompa02]

people aren't forced to wear clown masks though

wtf??? And you're forced to wear a burqa? Are you real?

 

[Azih]

The Burqa is completely antithetical to the value you hold. It indicates a deeply mysoginist, oppressive view of women.

The only way to know that is TO ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK OF IT. But nah let's think for them?

many religious women in the US uphold mysoginist practices such as anti-abortion laws.

Unless you're advocating legislating thoughtcrime this is irrelevant.

I understand that this aggrieves you in your identity as a Muslim.

It doesn't aggrieve me in my identity as a Muslim. It aggrieves me as heavy handed legislation like this makes me and my family objects of suspicion in wider society.

But that's not my problem.

It is mine. I've stated that this marginalizes and threatens me. You are saying that's fine by you in defense of shit laws that won't do any good.

Islam will not be a shield for oppressive practices in European societies.

Killing personal liberties is kind of the textbook definition of oppressive practices.

 

[Ethelwulf]

And people can choose to wear burqas

If it's a choice, I'm fine with it. If it's imposed by religion then we have a problem.

 

[LionPride]

Patriarchy and gender roles?



So you refuse to do any sort of critical thought, ok then.

No, you said why do European countries get shit on for what I said. Yall ain't special. It happens elsewhere.

I meant my example is the strawman

Shit my bad

 

[la_briola]

So Scotland represents the entire world now?

Also worn in Ireland.

I could also post a picture of the Izaar (or Futah):

That's even from the Islamic world!

 

[the_batman]

wtf??? And you're forced to wear a burqa? Are you real?

you really have no idea what goes on in some conservative muslim communities do you.

 

[T.O.P]

wtf??? And you're forced to wear a burqa? Are you real?

...there are woman who are forced to do so yes, shocking i know

 

[psychowave]

No, you said why do European countries get shit on for what I said. Yall ain't special. It happens elsewhere.

I didn't say that at all, and you refused to even read my first question it seems.

 

[Whompa02]

If it's a choice, I'm fine with it. If it's imposed by religion then we have a problem.

Being that you don't know and you're agreeing with a rule for it, is a problem.

 

[T.O.P]

Being that you don't know and you're agreeing with a rule for it, is a problem.

wtf??? And you're forced to wear a burqa? Are you real?

I mean, you are too speaking in absolutes, don't ya think?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Good riddance.

fyi this is a burqa
I'm fine with banning this

Yep.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

France is on the brink of voting in a white supremacist.
Austria had a Holocaust-denier on the billing.
The UK is leaving the EU because rahh rahh bureaucracy.
Belgium has an underground arms market.

But we can all unite together to attack what European Muslims wear and say something "isn't in the spirit of European values". God help us.

 

[LionPride]

I didn't say that at all, and you refused to even read my first question it seems.

Because it was already answered and I saw no need to answer it myself. But men are encouraged to be fully clothed themself and not to show skin so...

 

[SlimySnake]

fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this

Right. muslims should be the ones banning this. There is so much to fix within the muslim community. This should be something every muslim country should be doing. Let's convince the skeptical westerners that we are not controlled by the radicals who wont allow for a burqa ban.

 

[ClosingADoor]

France is on the brink of voting in a white supremacist.
Austria had a Holocaust-denier on the billing.
The UK is leaving the EU because rahh rahh bureaucracy.
Belgium has an underground arms market.

But we can all unite together to attack what European Muslims wear and say something "isn't in the spirit of European values". God help us.

What's your point with this? Countries have flaws, no shit.

 

[DerZuhälter]

The Burqa is completely antithetical to the value you hold. It indicates a deeply mysoginist, oppressive view of women. That some women choose to wear it does not counteract that - many religious women in the US uphold mysoginist practices such as anti-abortion laws.

Unfortunately for you, the burqa is considered a cultural practice tied up with your religion. I understand that this aggrieves you in your identity as a Muslim.

But that's not my problem. Islam will not be a shield for oppressive practices in European societies. If you disagree, feel free to vote for cultural relativists in the election booth.

The burqa is not an expression of religious freedom, nor should it be protected by the right of religious freedom. I say this as a muslim because the burqa in this shape or form has never been definied as something a woman of islamic faith has to wear or should wear.

Nonetheless I don't think liberties are done justice by, by taking them away.

Forcing sakularity into a religion by forming it through bans and oppression is incredibly shortsighted and will lead to unnecessary tensions and will hamper further integration.

And those who oppress their women into wearing a burqa will now just keep them locked in their apartments if they can't leave wearing them.

These bans aren't helping anyone.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Being that you don't know and you're agreeing with a rule for it, is a problem.

I don't know what? If it's imposed? No I don't. Thats what I said. If women in it are fine, then I'm also cool. If they feel oppressed then is not cool. Simple.

 

[psychowave]

Because it was already answered and I saw no need to answer it myself. But men are encouraged to be fully clothed themself and not to show skin so...

Okay? What does dressing conservatively that have to do with the burqa specifically? Women are "free" to "choose" to hide their fucking faces, but men don't even have to think about making that choice? What's up with that?

 

[gutter_trash]

The full body and full face coverings are misogynistic and are didpraportiobally ostentatious in its divide between men & women.

It's an old ancient relic that pre-dates Islam but was incorporated into it to appease locals of some regions at the time that had that custom

 

[LionPride]

Right. muslims should be the ones banning this. There is so much to fix within the muslim community. This should be something every muslim country should be doing. Let's convince the skeptical westerners that we are not controlled by the radicals who wont allow for a burqa ban.

People are trying to change the terrible sexist mentality conveyed by some, it's a real thing

 

[Budi]

I really think we shouldn't say that it's choosing to wear burqa when you do it because your religion tells you to. It's likely that many of these women have not chosen their religion at age where they have wider understanding of different religions and what those entail. It's not by choice if they do it because of will of their god. It's by rule. They maybe haven't been told that it's up to them if they want to wear it.

 

[Whompa02]

I mean, you are too speaking in absolutes, don't ya think?

I guess it depends on the faith, but at the end of the day It should be a choice, not required but also not completely banned.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

What's your point with this? Countries have flaws, no shit.

That we can ride on a moral high horse when the continent is being torn apart by racial and class tension.

 

[The Artisan]

"I don't like thing" isn't *good enough* as basis for legislation.

I don't like the damn thing either. *But that doesn't matter*

well i ain't the one making executive decisions.