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[Audioboxer]

I really think we shouldn't say that it's choosing to wear burqa when you do it because your religion tells you to. It's likely that many of these women have not chosen their religion at age where they have wider understanding of different religions and what those entail. It's not by choice if they do it because of will of their god. It's by rule.

Their religion demands them to cover up (which in itself misogynistic), however it doesn't state coverings as extreme as the burqa. The burqa is a man-made interpretation used to oppress women and force them to be viewed as possessions and barely human. There is a reason it was used by ISIS...

It's also largely why so few women in Islam wear it when they are in non-enforced countries.

 

[Azih]

well i ain't the one making executive decisions.

So? You're supporting bad laws.

It didn't work in Turkey. It didn't work in France. Every damn argument for the law here doing any good is based on nothing.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/03/france-muslim-veil-opinions-contributors-emre-deliveli.html

 

[Morrigan Stark]

"I don't like thing" isn't *good enough* as basis for legislation

That's the basis for it and you know it. The legislation is because it's a garment invented and used exclusively to oppress women.

For the same reason men don't tend to wear skirts or one piece bathing suits.

Are you fucking kidding me? You think women who wear the burqa are dong this out of a fashion choice?

No, seriously, you can't possibly be making this insane argument. Please tell me you somehow didn't mean any of that because... ugh.

It doesn't aggrieve me in my identity as a Muslim. It aggrieves me as heavy handed legislation like this makes me and my family objects of suspicion in wider society.

Unless you force the women in your family to wear the burqa, no it doesn't affect you in any way nor does it threaten or marginalize you.

Killing personal liberties is kind of the textbook definition of oppressive practices.

In a world where burqas are not oppressive but legislation against them are.... yeah, some people clearly like to live outside of reality, huh.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

France is on the brink of voting in a white supremacist.
Austria had a Holocaust-denier on the billing.
The UK is leaving the EU because rahh rahh bureaucracy.
Belgium has an underground arms market.

But we can all unite together to attack what European Muslims wear and say something "isn't in the spirit of European values". God help us.

This ban is clearly about extending an olive branch to just those voters at the sacrifice of the religious freedom of a pretty negligible amount of people. We could of course want a purity test from those particular politicians but there's little gained if it ends up with the far right populists in power.
You could argue it's a slippery slope but then again it's a subject even many on the left can agree with.

 

[LionPride]

Their religion demands them to cover up (which in itself misogynistic), however it doesn't state coverings as extreme as the burqa. The burqa is a man-made interpretation used to oppress women and force them to be viewed as possessions and barely human.

This is true, but if there is someone who wanted to wear one...I'm not gonna tell them no.

 

[poppabk]

Do you oppose polygamous relationships in general? I mean, I'm no expert so I don't know if there are tax-related reasons or other legal problems that would make legalizing polygamous marriage difficult. But I certainly support people's right to be in a relationship with more than one person. If a mormon or muslim women wants to be the second, third or even fourth wife/girlfriend of a man I've got no problem with that. Even if she believes she herself should not have multiple spouses because of her religion. I also of course think that women that do want it should be able to have multiple partners. If there's a way to make that a legally recognized marriage I'm all for it. So that's not really an argument in favor of a face-veil ban, at least not for me.

It's banned for exactly the same reason - it's a religious tool for female oppression that is a 'choice' that is hammered into girls from an early age.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Their religion demands them to cover up (which in itself misogynistic)

Again, hijab is observed by men and women.

 

[mnz]

An "ISIS stronghold" is the operative word of that sentence. Shouldn't ban religious clothing in a free society and instead allow it to phase out with time, it's hardly a fashionable piece of clothing for young people.

It absolutely is in certain corners of Europe. It's certainly not "phasing out".

 

[Kill Your Masters]

The burqa is not an expression of religious freedom, nor should it be protected by the right of religious freedom. I say this as a muslim because the burqa in this shape or form has never been definied as something a woman of islamic faith has to wear or should wear.

Nonetheless I don't think liberties are done justice by, by taking them away.

Forcing sakularity into a religion by forming it through bans and oppression is incredibly shortsighted and will lead to unnecessary tensions and will hamper further integration.

And those who oppress their women into wearing a burqa will now just keep them locked in their apartments if they can't leave wearing them.

These bans aren't helping anyone.

Well not quite, whoever feels uncomfortable seeing them, won't be seeing them anymore. They also just won't see a lot of those women on the streets that much though.

But spot on with the rest of the post.

 

[Whales]

Nothing stupid about banning something as degrading to women as the fucking burqa. Why don't you go out and wear one if you're so attached to it ?

what kind of shitty argument is this?

Some women do wear it by their own will. You think the government should control that? And those who are being forced to wear it... You think their husband will just be like " oh well ok, u can remove it now enjoy"? Like another poster said, they'll just be forced to stay at home...

Also, the real bad thing in the article is wanting to make it so that teachers cant wear hijabs... Absolutely disgusting

 

[hobblygobbly]

You can choose to not get an abortion.

You should be able to choose to wear a burqa. See how you're argument falls on its face?

The Burqa is related to namus, just as virginity of a man's daughter must be kept intact before marriage. The women can choose to have sex, or to not wear a burqa, but it will damage the namus of the man.

Bringing dishonor is a thing that many women fear of doing because it can have bad consequences, such as death (honour killings). In Germany two years ago a father killed his daughter because she stole condoms, it brought dishonor, and he explicitly said this is why he killed her.

Namus is not exclusive to Islam to be clear, its a cultural concept of the region which has different uses in the religions. This is where the concept of honour killings, women having to meet different standards than men when it comes to things such as adultery and so on come from, it's part of namus, and the burqa is as well. Also the interpretations in Islam of how much a man or woman must cover themselves varies.

Namus is not about choice, it's about protecting the honor (namus is honour) of the man's family. Revealing yourself to other men violates her namus, and thus the husband's.

The concept of namus and its negative effect is more pronounced in Central Asia, but these concepts do not erase themselves from refugees and still exists even in conservative Muslim families who aren't migrants/refugees.

Again of course the women can make the choice to not wear it but what surrounds that disobedience is why it's so internalised. Even if the husband doesn't care for it one needs to remember that you are still heavily judged by your community and extended family because they still see the namus being violated.

A stronger argument is respecting religious and cultural freedom but the argument of it being a women's choice is weak. There are better ways to educate and move away from concepts such as namus and I don't think banning the burqa is the right way, but saying the burqa is inherently good or a women's choice is wrong as well in my opinion because from what it's related to.

 

[jessop]

some of you seem to think women wearing these operate on a totally different social plane to the rest of us

they are still knocking about all the same places buying their groceries etc you just cant see their faces. sounds like you people dont have much first hand experience with people actually wearing them

 

[sohois]

So? You're supporting bad laws.

It didn't work in Turkey. It didn't work in France. Every damn argument for the law here doing any good is based on nothing.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/03/france-muslim-veil-opinions-contributors-emre-deliveli.html

Your link supports neither of the arguments you present.

No data is offered on the efficacy or not of the ban in France.

The Turkish example cited is not about Burqas. It concerns the banning of Turbans, and cites data showing that when the ban was lifted the number of Turban wearers increased dramatically. I'm not sure what point the author is trying to make with this. Unbanning something leads to more people doing said thing is hardly a controversial statement.

 

[Audioboxer]

This is true, but if there is someone who wanted to wear one...I'm not gonna tell them no.

Well to be fair no one is asking yourself to take up the mantle of decision making. I know what you mean, but many complex decisions in life end up coming down to a yes/no scenario once they have been observed and debated.

Again, hijab is observed by men and women.

Just my personal opinion there. I don't see value in shaming women to cover up, but that's a completely other topic around sexual repression and body shaming. I'm more concerned with highlighting the Koran while it does indeed ask for covering, does not ask as strictly for the burqa as some seem to say. Hence how I call it a "man-made" demand and correctly pointed out the VAST majority of women in Islam do not wear the burqa.

 

[RustyNails]

Some unfortunately live exactly like that, that's the whole fuckin point



http://pol-check.blogspot.it/2011/04/do-muslim-women-want-to-wear-burka.html

This is crock of shit. Get this vile hateful shit out of here.

 

[Azih]

That's the basis for it and you know it. The legislation is because it's a garment invented and used exclusively to oppress women.

What do the women who choose to wear it think?

Are you fucking kidding me? You think women who wear the burqa are dong this out of a fashion choice?

Have no idea about a 'fashion' choice. But it's a choice. It is for Zunera Ishaq

Unless you force the women in your family to wear the burqa, no it doesn't affect you in any way nor does it threaten or marginalize you.

Othering Muslims and bashing Islam for political vote getting affects, threatens, and marginalizes me and my family a whole hell of a lot Morrigan. Attacks on hijabis and mosque burnings and shootings always increase after legislation specifically targeting Muslims is championed.

It also encourages extremists. So yeah you're giving the 'West hates Islam' crowd fodder too. So yeah this hurts me and mine in many many ways.

yeah, some people clearly like to live outside of reality, huh.

Taking away personal liberty is taking away personal liberty.

 

[RustyNails]

some of you seem to think women wearing these operate on a totally different social plane to the rest of us

they are still knocking about all the same places buying their groceries etc you just cant see their faces. sounds like you people dont have much first hand experience with people actually wearing them

"I dont see their tits, they're oppressed!"

 

[Izuna]

Hijab is beautiful

Burqa is ridiculous

If brainwashing weren't such an obvious thing, I wouldn't care for it, but this its use is just another arbitrary rule to oppress women in the name of religion.

 

[LionPride]

what kind of shitty argument is this?

Some women do wear it by their own will. You think the government should control that? And those who are being forced to wear it... You think their husband will just be like " oh well ok, u can remove it now enjoy"? Like another poster said, they'll just be forced to stay at home...

Also, the real bad thing in the article is wanting to make it so that teachers cant wear hijabs... Absolutely disgusting

Jesus Christ on the teacher thing, that's just wild.

 

[Gutek]

some of you seem to think women wearing these operate on a totally different social plane to the rest of us

they are still knocking about all the same places buying their groceries etc you just cant see their faces. sounds like you people dont have much first hand experience with people actually wearing them

I've yet to be greeted by a teller in a burka. Or a waitress. Or a physician.

 

[T.O.P]

Also, the real bad thing in the article is wanting to make it so that teachers cant wear hijabs... Absolutely disgusting

Wich is already a law in France and i hope Italy soon too

The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (i.e. government-operated) primary and secondary schools. The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law, especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité: the separation of state and religious activities.

And i mean for ANY religious symbols, i'm tired of seeing crosses and pictures of saints in my town's schools ffs

 

[psychowave]

"I dont see their tits, they're oppressed!"

Yes, that's exactly what we're arguing, you got it.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Just my personal opinion there. I don't see value in shaming women to cover up, but that's a completely other topic around sexual repression and body shaming. I'm more concerned with highlighting the Koran while it does indeed ask for covering, does not ask as strictly for the burqa as some seem to say. Hence how I call it a "man-made" demand and correctly pointed out the VAST majority of women in Islam do not wear the burqa.

You can argue how you want with burqa. It's not enforced by the Qu'ran. But hijab is, and it applies to both men and women. Hijab isn't a head scarf.

The Burqa is related to namus, just as virginity of a man's daughter must be kept intact before marriage. The women can choose to have sex, or to not wear a burqa, but it will damage the namus of the man.

Bringing dishonor is a thing that many women fear of doing because it can have bad consequences, such as death (honour killings). In Germany last year a father killed his daughter because she stole condoms, it brought dishonor, and he explicitly said this is why he killed her.

Namus is not exclusive to Islam to be clear, its a cultural concept of the region which has different uses in the religions. This is where the concept of honour killings, women having to meet different standards than men when it comes to things such as adultery and so on come from, it's part of namus, and the burqa is as well. Also the interpretations in Islam of how much a man or woman must cover themselves varies.

Namus is not about choice, it's about protecting the honor (namus is honour) of the man's family. Revealing yourself to other men violates her namus, and thus the husband's.

The concept of namus and its negative effect is more pronounced in Central Asia, but these concepts do not erase themselves from refugees and still exists even in conservative Muslim families who aren't migrants/refugees.

Again of course the women can make the choice to not wear it but what surrounds that disobedience is why it's so internalised. Even if the husband doesn't care for it one needs to remember that you are still heavily judged by your community and extended family because they still see the namus being violated.

A stronger argument is respecting religious and cultural freedom but the argument of it being a women's choice is weak. There are better ways to educate and move away from concepts such as namus and I don't think banning the burqa is the right way, but saying the burqa is inherently good or a women's choice is wrong as well in my opinion because from what it's related to.

You raise a very good point. But of course, our own perspectives are dictated by the exact same internalised, cultural non-choices. My ex-girlfriend used to be verbally ripped to pieces by her mother for being 'fat'. I was horrified, but she shrugged it off as "filial piety". You or I may think it's ridiculous but that's because we haven't been raised in that particular 'game' of life. Values and rationale are not wholly objective. Of course I know you know this, just rambling at this point.

If people actually want to help prevent misogyny, and assist those that want to remove the burqa, donate to your local women's refuge. Don't talk down to them, but perhaps think about contributing financially so they can do as they please in a (still) liberal democracy without any fear of abuse.

 

[Azih]

No data is offered on the efficacy or not of the ban in France.

That's cause I already posted that. Nobody cared to respond to that either.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151012/france-burqa-ban-five-years-on-we-create-a-monster

 

[Jacksinthe]

Then ban that instead of a specific article of clothing. This targets a specific part of a single religion. I don't particularly like the Burqa, but there's a lot of stuff I don't like in religions, but it doesn't mean I should stop people from practicing what they want.

You forgot to say "in private" at the end of your last sentence, right? Because this is in public we are talking about.

Still shocked people are OK with anything that is a symbol of oppression. That's straight up vile and no, this topic isn't nuanced. You don't get to pick and choose advocating for women's/human rights when it serves the purpose of being ultra-pc so you don't offend personal beliefs. No. Fuck that. A belief is an IDEA that can be questioned at every turn, especially when that belief participates in subjugation.

 

[Audioboxer]

You can argue how you want with burqa. It's not enforced by the Qu'ran. But hijab is, and it applies to both men and women. Hijab isn't a head scarf.

We agree then. As the Koran is not arguing for the burqa maybe some people can stop correlating religion with this being the requests made of women in their faith. With that out of the way it is probably then important for the debate to start focussing on how men, and even ISIS, are the ones often demanding women wear a burqa, not the religious scripture itself.

 

[Metrotab]

some of you seem to think women wearing these operate on a totally different social plane to the rest of us

they are still knocking about all the same places buying their groceries etc you just cant see their faces. sounds like you people dont have much first hand experience with people actually wearing them

The burqa is already banned in my country, passed near unanimously in parliament.

What's funny is that the "social justice watchdog" of my country (Centre of Equal Chances) supported it too (EDIT: they supported the ban). Like I said, only a very specific brand of left-wing thought allows for the burqa to be a civil liberty for women.

 

[T.O.P]

This is crock of shit. Get this vile hateful shit out of here.

"I dont see their tits, they're oppressed!"

Well, talking about "shit"

 

[la_briola]

"I dont see their tits, they're oppressed!"

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Wait, we did what?

 

[Regginator]

I'm against this ban, even if it's just because of the million dollar question "where will it stop?" We don't have guarantees. If they ban burqas now, maybe next time they'll ban niqaabs, and after they do that, they'll ban ghimaars/chadors, and when those are gone, regular hijabs/headscarves will be banned and before we know it we'll have Muslims rounded up in concentration camps, God forbid.

For illustration sake:

 

[Blueingreen]

fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this

Yeah I'm sorry but the Burqa is erm..nonsense.

I'm against this ban, even if it's just because of the million dollar question "where will it stop?" We don't have guarantees. If they ban burqas now, maybe next time they'll ban niqaabs, and after they do that, they'll ban ghimaars/chadors, and when those are gone, regular hijabs/headscarves will be banned and before we know it we'll have Muslims rounded up in concentration camps, God forbid.

For illustration sake:

I can't tell wether you're serious that illustration kind of proves the point.

 

[Irminsul]

This is true, but if there is someone who wanted to wear one...I'm not gonna tell them no.

And again, if someone wants to live in a polygamous marriage (the important part here, a simple polygamous relationship I don't really care about), they could do so out of free will and really, really want it and I'd still be in favour of banning it because the potential harm is bigger than the positive effects.

Plenty of rules work this way. Sucks for some people, but that's how societies generally work.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Jesus Christ on the teacher thing, that's just wild.

France doesn't allow any religious symbols in schools, be it Christian or Islamic. I see little wrong with such an approach.

I'm against this ban, even if it's just because of the million dollar question "where will it stop?" We don't have guarantees. If they ban burqas now, maybe next time they'll ban niqaabs, and after they do that, they'll ban ghimaars/chadors, and when those are gone, regular hijabs/headscarves will be banned and before we know it we'll have Muslims rounded up in concentration camps, God forbid.

Multiple countries have a ban for some years now, it has not escalated into banning anything beside the buraq and niqab, which both hide the face.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm against this ban, even if it's just because of the million dollar question "where will it stop?" We don't have guarantees. If they ban burqas now, maybe next time they'll ban niqaabs, and after they do that, they'll ban ghimaars/chadors, and when those are gone, regular hijabs/headscarves will be banned and before we know it we'll have Muslims rounded up in concentration camps, God forbid.:

I really hope this is some sort of satire or GAF meme?

 

[LionPride]

We agree then. As the Koran is not arguing for the burqa maybe some people can stop correlating religion with this being the requests made of women in their faith. With that out of the way it is probably then important for the debate to start focussing on how men, and even ISIS, are the ones often demanding women wear a burqa, not the religious scripture itself.

yeah, I made the mistake of correlating it with religion earlier. If people wanna debate the sexism around the burqa, fine, but I won't tell someone who chooses to wear one not to

Wich is already a law in France and i hope Italy soon too



And i mean for ANY religious symbols, i'm tired of seeing crosses and pictures of saints in my town's schools ffs

Does it hurt you?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

It's good to see the SPÖ and ÖVP (our governing parties) can finally agree on something, maybe next time it won't be stupid.

 

[The Artisan]

So? You're supporting bad laws.

It didn't work in Turkey. It didn't work in France. Every damn argument for the law here doing any good is based on nothing.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/03/france-muslim-veil-opinions-contributors-emre-deliveli.html

that's subjective. there's plenty of women, even Muslim women who probably aren't fond of the burqa.

 

[Gutek]

France doesn't allow any religious symbols in schools, be it Christian or Islamic. I see little wrong with such an approach.

This is the correct approach. No crosses, no hijab, no nothing. Religion needs to stay out of schools.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Does it hurt you?

Religion? Yes, plenty of people actually

 

[la_briola]

I'm against this ban, even if it's just because of the million dollar question "where will it stop?" We don't have guarantees. If they ban burqas now, maybe next time they'll ban niqaabs, and after they do that, they'll ban ghimaars/chadors, and when those are gone, regular hijabs/headscarves will be banned and before we know it we'll have Muslims rounded up in concentration camps, God forbid.

For illustration sake:

As always: Hijab is fine, all others are ridiculous and oppressive, with the burqa taking the cake.

 

[The Artisan]

Hijab is beautiful

Burqa is ridiculous

If brainwashing weren't such an obvious thing, I wouldn't care for it, but this its use is just another arbitrary rule to oppress women in the name of religion.

i agree with this, i find myself attracted to girls wearing the hijab but I think the burqa is ridiculous

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What do the women who choose to wear it think?

We've had this argument before. They're brainwashed since birth to be dehumanized and even if they do hate it they wouldn't say so to journalists.

It's not a real choice and we all fucking know it.

This is the France thread all over again. Same arguments over and over.

"I dont see their tits, they're oppressed!"

Wow, is this the OT side of the argument in gaming about representation? "You won't be happy until all females in video games are covered in a burqa!"

 

[T.O.P]

Does it hurt you?

Considering that 99% of the people who brought harassment or spite towards my homosexuality were Christian nuts

Yes it fuckin does

Sorry if i don't want symbol of a region that oppress my life in a public institute

 

[RustyNails]

Yes, that's exactly what we're arguing, you got it.

What are you arguing? Would you be fine if they wore burqa and showed their faces?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Does it hurt you?

The school is a public place run by the state and religion has no place in it as far as I'm concerned.

What are you arguing? Would you be fine if they wore burqa and showed their faces?

Then it's not a burqa...

 

[psychowave]

What are you arguing? Would you be fine if they wore burqa and showed their faces?

I don't think you know what a burqa is.

 

[Azih]

People supporting this are helping increase the popularity of extremist interpretations of Islam. Point blank.

 

[sohois]

That's cause I already posted that. Nobody cared to respond to that either.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151012/france-burqa-ban-five-years-on-we-create-a-monster

Whilst this does point out some evidence that the ban has not had the desired impact, I think it is fairly weak evidence. The professor in the article offers nothing except their opinion.

Only the evidence cited at the bottom gives the view of a failure of the ban. However, the fact that some are determined to flout the ban as much as possible should not be a surprise. For every banned or restricted item there are those who believe it should not be and do whatever they can to flout the law, but this tells us nothing about the efficacy for the general populace, only that these particular flouters are very upset with the ruling.

 

[Magni]

I hate the concept of the burqa, but banning it is not the way to go. Sigh, this will only fuel the fire for both extremes.