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[Gutek]

People supporting this are helping increase the popularity of extremist interpretations of Islam. Point blank.

People who support Hillary are the reason Trump got elected.

 

[cgcg]

Then ban that instead of a specific article of clothing. This targets a specific part of a single religion. I don't particularly like the Burqa, but there's a lot of stuff I don't like in religions, but it doesn't mean I should stop people from practicing what they want.

You really think the women are practicing what they want? Please.

 

[RustyNails]

Wow, is this the OT side of the argument in gaming about representation? "You won't be happy until all females in video games are covered in a burqa!"

Thats not what I'm saying at all. There is no correlation between the amount of body you show vs freedom at a personal level. Just because if someone is wearing a Burqa does not mean she is an oppressed damsel that needs to be rescued.

 

[nekkid]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

Obviously that's not true, multi culture should be celebrated, but there are some logical lines that need to be drawn. For me, communication is a big factor. When you move somewhere and there is a roadblock to communication, then you discourage integration and understanding.

Language is one - I find it offensive that someone would move to another country and after years of living there not be able to speak conversationally in the native language. I mean, I find it rude that people go on holiday to another country and expect the residents they talk to to be able to respond to them in English without making any effort to speak in their tongue, so why should I not expect substantially more effort of the people who settle in a country?

Regarding the burqa, putting the issues with its symbolism regarding women aside for a second (a very important issue), I want my kid to communicate with people of all ethnicities, sexes and appearances, but I want them to see their face when they are learning. Reading reactions and face movement is a part of 1-1 communication, and I would have concerns over a teacher's ability to communicate with children when their face is completely covered.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

We agree then. As the Koran is not arguing for the burqa maybe some people can stop correlating religion with this being the requests made of women in their faith. With that out of the way it is probably then important for the debate to start focussing on how men, and even ISIS, are the ones often demanding women wear a burqa, not the religious scripture itself.

There is no conflation. Just because I'm for personal autonomy does not mean I support misogynist regimes or the message of the burqa, women should just be allowed what they want in Europe without threat of being harassed for it. Quite simple really.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I take back my "same old arguments", this is new:

People supporting this are helping increase the popularity of extremist interpretations of Islam. Point blank.

Right. Who needs personal responsibility when you can blame boogeymen for the actions of extremists, huh?

Same stupid argument as "your attitude pushes people towards Trump!". No, these people were shitheads to begin with, don't blame the people fighting them.

Edit: dammit Gutek xD

 

[RustyNails]

The school is a public place run by the state and religion has no place in it as far as I'm concerned.


Then it's not a burqa...

I don't think you know what a burqa is.

My mom wears the fucking burqa. Tell me what the burqa is?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

My mom wears the fucking burqa. Tell me what the burqa is?

A burqa by definition hides the face completely...

 

[Gutek]

My mom wears the fucking burqa. Tell me what the burqa is?

You're just asked if someone was fine with a Burka that still shows their faces. That's not a burka.

 

[la_briola]

People supporting this are helping increase the popularity of extremist interpretations of Islam. Point blank.

People supporting the burqa support the oppression of women. Point blank.

 

[ClosingADoor]

My mom wears the fucking burqa. Tell me what the burqa is?

Well, then she can continue to wear it, as long as she shows her face, because then it is not the thing the ban is talking about.

 

[LionPride]

Considering that 99% of the people who brought harassment or spite towards my homosexuality were Christian nuts

Yes it fuckin does

Sorry if i don't want symbol of a region that oppress my life in a public institute

I'm not gonna blame all of religion and any religious symbols on anything bruh. Not even homophobia. Not all religious people are like that but whatevs

The school is a public place run by the state and religion has no place in it as far as I'm concerned.


Then it's not a burqa...

Fair reason.

Religion? Yes, plenty of people actually

And it can help as well

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I'm against this ban, even if it's just because of the million dollar question "where will it stop?" We don't have guarantees. If they ban burqas now, maybe next time they'll ban niqaabs, and after they do that, they'll ban ghimaars/chadors, and when those are gone, regular hijabs/headscarves will be banned and before we know it we'll have Muslims rounded up in concentration camps, God forbid.

For illustration sake:

Putting aside the dumb part of this post, I think "we" also banned the Niqaab. At least Sebastian Kurz (our Secretary of State) mentioned he wanted to ban both the Niqaad and the Burqa. Not sure if both got banned or just the Burqa

And it can help as well

Yeah. That's why you can still visit a church or mosque whenever you want. Doesn't mean it has a place in school tho.

 

[Victarion]

Why can't they come up with a law to target the males in these families that impose burkas on their women instead of this?

 

[The Artisan]

And it can help as well

spirituality can help, religion can help but in my experience, having your mind wrapped up in religion with a close mind can hurt as well.

 

[Izuna]

People who support Hillary are the reason Trump got elected.

OH THIS SHIT AGAIN

 

[psychowave]

Why can't they come up with a law to target the males in these families that impose burkas on their women instead of this?

This would be great if it could be implemented, but I don't think it can, especially since I think many women would be inclined to lie to protect their families.

 

[RustyNails]

A burqa by definition hides the face completely...

No it doesn't.

Burqa is a cloak. The picture in this thread is that of Chador. Abaya and Chador are forms of cloaks. Chador comes built in with Niqab and Hijab. Abaya doesn't. Abaya is exclusively worn in Saudi Arabia with an additional Hijab OR Hijab+Niqab.

 

[Irminsul]

OH THIS SHIT AGAIN

Gutek just extended the logic of the poster he quoted to the US election.

 

[ebullientprism]

You can choose to not get an abortion.

You should be able to choose to wear a burqa. See how your argument falls on its face?

Problem is its not a choice for a lot of women. Especially if you come from a male dominated culture and are living with your family that still upholds those patriarchal values VERY strictly.

Just moving to a western country doesn't give them the option to chose their dress style. Fathers/husbands in their households will still call the shots on that.

I still think the ban is stupid because in those cases it will just mean that those women will be forced to stay inside when they could at least be out with a Burkha. But lets not pretend that that is a "choice" women are making.

 

[Azih]

We've had this argument before. They're brainwashed since birth to be dehumanized and even if they do hate it they wouldn't say so to journalists.

It's not a real choice and we all fucking know it.

I don't get to speak for other people. You don't get to speak for other people.

If the basis for your argument is that you know what is going through other peoples mind then you have no argument.

Sohois. I've given you proof that it's backfired. You have any proof that it'll work?

This will increase Muslim marginalization. This will give extra fodder to extremist groups recruiting. This does promote the bullshit idea of a 'War between Islam and the West'. It does not achieve its objectives and has terrible consequences.

 

[Izuna]

Gutek just extended the logic of the poster he quoted to the US election.

Fuck, lol. I see

 

[Metrotab]

No it doesn't.

Burqa is a cloak. The picture in this thread is that of Chador. Abaya and Chador are forms of cloaks. Chador comes built in with Niqab and Hijab. Abaya doesn't. Abaya is exclusively worn in Saudi Arabia with an additional Hijab OR Hijab+Niqab.

Well, in Europe we call a chador a burqa then. Never heard of a chador before in my life, to be honest.

 

[T.O.P]

I'm not gonna blame all of religion and any religious symbols on anything bruh. Not even homophobia. Not all religious people are like that but whatevs

And you can still do your thing at home or in church or whateaver, but not by owning a damn public institution by putting your religious symbols up the walls

 

[RustyNails]

Well, then she can continue to wear it, as long as she shows her face, because then it is not the thing the ban is talking about.

This is also a Burqa WITH Hijab

This is also a Burqa WITHOUT hijab

Under the law, both styles will be outlawed.

 

[Gutek]

No it doesn't.

Burqa is a cloak. The picture in this thread is that of Chador. Abaya and Chador are forms of cloaks. Chador comes built in with Niqab and Hijab. Abaya doesn't. Abaya is exclusively worn in Saudi Arabia with an additional Hijab OR Hijab+Niqab.

When I google this shit, it gives me the opposite of what you're saying. It doesn't matter though, as the proposed law speaks to the face veil. So, to answer your question: No face veil would be fine.

 

[Audioboxer]

There is no conflation. Just because I'm for personal autonomy does not mean I support misogynist regimes or the message of the burqa, women should just be allowed what they want in Europe without threat of being harassed for it. Quite simple really.

And then we go full circle back to the fact that in some societies you cannot just simply wear whatever you want. Women have a HUGE choice of what to wear. Some things just may be off limits. That's life.

Analogies are pretty tough because there is understandably nothing else really like the burqa. Best comparisons are always to things like balaclavas. Chances if any female, let alone male, tried to wear a balaclava every day in life the police would probably intervene, and you'd be asked to take it off in public.

This is without something like the balaclava even having the links to widespread oppression, and ties to groups such as ISIS forcing it on women. In other words, when the debate around the burqa happens all of those things get considered as well, not just that your face is covered.

This is also a Burqa WITH Hijab

This is also a Burqa WITHOUT hijab

Under the law, both styles will be outlawed.

No they won't. This is about looking like this

Not what you posted.

 

[Regginator]

Multiple countries have a ban for some years now, it has not escalated into banning anything beside the buraq and niqab, which both hide the face.

...yet. Not so long ago the idea of banning people from certain Muslim-majority countries would be laughed at, it sounded that ridiculous. No way it would happen. Yet, now it's a reality, and the frightening part is a significant part of people (populists/far-right) seem to be okay with that. Am I unreasonable to dread the day we're moving beyond banning niqaabs? (I understand banning burkas, but like I said my main point of criticism is the possible snowball effect after it)

As always: Hijab is fine, all others are ridiculous and oppressive, with the burqa taking the cake.

What's oppressive about the ghimaar for example? She's easily recognizable, so "but safety" doesn't really apply here. Which makes me curious, does a woman need the shape of her ass and tits to be visible before we can say she's not being oppressed?

 

[Azih]

Gutek just extended the logic of the poster he quoted to the US election.

The two have no relationship to each other. The number one argument AlQaedalikes have is that "The West hates Islam and oppresses Muslims". This is fact. This feeds that. That is fact too.

 

[Kayhan]

"I dont see their tits, they're oppressed!"

Yeah you nailed it dude......

 

[Pusherman]

We've had this argument before. They're brainwashed since birth to be dehumanized and even if they do hate it they wouldn't say so to journalists.

It's not a real choice and we all fucking know it.

This is blatantly untrue, as you would know if you listened to some face-veil wearing women.

Here's

a

few

And here is a woman who converted to islam against her mother's wishes who started wearing a face-veil. It's in Dutch but you can see her in the picture.

This is the France thread all over again. Same arguments over and over.

You're very right about this tho

 

[ClosingADoor]

No it doesn't.

Burqa is a cloak. The picture in this thread is that of Chador. Abaya and Chador are forms of cloaks. Chador comes built in with Niqab and Hijab. Abaya doesn't. Abaya is exclusively worn in Saudi Arabia with an additional Hijab OR Hijab+Niqab.

This picture?

...yet. Not so long ago the idea of banning people from certain Muslim-majority countries would be laughed at, it sounded that ridiculous. No way it would happen. Yet, now it's a reality, and the frightening part is a significant part of people (populists/far-right) seem to be okay with that. Am I unreasonable to dread the day we're moving beyond banning niqaabs? (I understand banning burkas, but like I said my main point of criticism is the possible snowball effect after it)

At this point there is no indication that any European country is going to ban religious clothing that does not cover the face. I have not seen the parties that would qualify as the far right (which are not at a majority in Europe) call for such a total ban either, but maybe I missed that of course.

 

[LionPride]

And you can still do your thing at home or in church or whateaver, but not by owning a damn public institution by putting your religious symbols up the walls

Dude that wasn't your argument though. Your argument was that since religious people have been terrible towards you, no religious symbols in schools

 

[TimeEffect]

the proposed law speaks to the face veil. .

Under the law, both styles will be outlawed.

which is it?

 

[jessop]

Like I said, only a very specific brand of left-wing thought allows for the burqa to be a civil liberty for women.

yeah, the sort that listens to what muslim women have to say

 

[RustyNails]

Well, in Europe we call a chador a burqa then. Never heard of a chador before in my life, to be honest.

Chador is A persian/Urdu/Pashtun word that means a long rug made out of cotton. This is a chadar

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Under the law, both styles will be outlawed.

Not necessarily. Haven't read the law yet, but in the video linked in the article Kurz mentions banning "Vollverschleierung" meaning full-face veil.

 

[Gutek]

which is it?

From the article in the OP:

Austria’s grand coalition government will ban the full-face veil, Die Welt reported Tuesday.

RustyNails is confused.

 

[T.O.P]

Dude that wasn't your argument though. Your argument was that since religious people have been terrible towards you, no religious symbols in schools

You exactly asked "Does it hurt you?" and i answered to that

There's no place for religion in public institutions

 

[MadJackChurchill]

And then we go full circle back to the fact that in some societies you cannot just simply wear whatever you want. Women have a HUGE choice of what to wear. Some things just may be off limits. That's life.

People wearing numerous things. It can be hard to tolerate people different from you. That's life.

Analogies are pretty tough because there is understandably nothing else really like the burqa. Best comparisons are always to things like balaclavas. Chances if any female, let alone male, tried to wear a balaclava every day in life the police would probably intervene, and you'd be asked to take it off in public.

Nuns seem to get along pretty fine.

 

[la_briola]

What's oppressive about the ghimaar for example? She's easily recognizable, so "but safety" doesn't really apply here. Which makes me curious, does a woman need the shape of her ass and tits to be visible before we can say she's not being oppressed?

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Regarding oppression: let me quote another post in this thread:

The Burqa is related to namus, just as virginity of a man's daughter must be kept intact before marriage. The women can choose to have sex, or to not wear a burqa, but it will damage the namus of the man.

Bringing dishonor is a thing that many women fear of doing because it can have bad consequences, such as death (honour killings). In Germany two years ago a father killed his daughter because she stole condoms, it brought dishonor, and he explicitly said this is why he killed her.

Namus is not exclusive to Islam to be clear, its a cultural concept of the region which has different uses in the religions. This is where the concept of honour killings, women having to meet different standards than men when it comes to things such as adultery and so on come from, it's part of namus, and the burqa is as well. Also the interpretations in Islam of how much a man or woman must cover themselves varies.

Namus is not about choice, it's about protecting the honor (namus is honour) of the man's family. Revealing yourself to other men violates her namus, and thus the husband's.

The concept of namus and its negative effect is more pronounced in Central Asia, but these concepts do not erase themselves from refugees and still exists even in conservative Muslim families who aren't migrants/refugees.

Again of course the women can make the choice to not wear it but what surrounds that disobedience is why it's so internalised. Even if the husband doesn't care for it one needs to remember that you are still heavily judged by your community and extended family because they still see the namus being violated.

A stronger argument is respecting religious and cultural freedom but the argument of it being a women's choice is weak. There are better ways to educate and move away from concepts such as namus and I don't think banning the burqa is the right way, but saying the burqa is inherently good or a women's choice is wrong as well in my opinion because from what it's related to.

This is what I'm talking about.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Chador is A persian/Urdu/Pashtun word that means a long rug made out of cotton. This is a chadar

If it does not cover her face, it will not fall under the ban as far as I can tell.

 

[Audioboxer]

People wearing numerous things. It can be hard to tolerate people different from you. That's life.




Nuns seem to get along pretty fine.

??? Nuns don't cover their face.

 

[psychowave]

This is blatantly untrue, as you would know if you listened to some face-veil wearing women.

Here's

a

few

And here is a woman who converted to islam against her mother's wishes who started wearing a face-veil. It's in Dutch but you can see her in the picture.

There's also examples of ex-muslim women who oppose the veil.

 

[RustyNails]

This picture?

No, the one with three qomen walking. That picture is not representative of the forms of Burqa that are available. It is focusing on a Burqa + Face Veil+ Hijab combo that only women from Afghanistan and rural Iran region wear.

When I google this shit, it gives me the opposite of what you're saying. It doesn't matter though, as the proposed law speaks to the face veil. So, to answer your question: No face veil would be fine.

We need to correct the etymology then. Face Veil <> Burqa. Face Veil is specifically called Niqab. Burqa can be worn without Niqab.

 

[Regginator]

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can't find the server at www.muslim-shop.com.

Hmm, weird. Here are some other examples, nothing that screams "oppressed":

 

[Alanood]

This is also a Burqa WITH Hijab

Wh- what are you talking about? I'm sure that Burqa covers the face just like Niqab.
Perhaps it's lexicalized differently in your language, or it's a country thing.

 

[Soph]

This is blatantly untrue, as you would know if you listened to some face-veil wearing women.

It's very hard to arrest loverboys since the victims usually don't testify against them as it was their choice to be with set loverboy.

Know where I'm going with this line of reasoning?

 

[sirap]

Problem is its not a choice for a lot of women. Especially if you come from a male dominated culture and are living with your family that still upholds those patriarchal values VERY strictly.

Just moving to a western country doesn't give them the option to chose their dress style. Fathers/husbands in their households will still call the shots on that.

I still think the ban is stupid because in those cases it will just mean that those women will be forced to stay inside when they could at least be out with a Burkha. But lets not pretend that that is a "choice" women are making.

My mom's bestfriend is a Chinese woman who converted a decade ago. She's estranged from her Christian family and chooses to wear a burqa. No one's forcing her to wear it, certainly not my mom who only wears a hijab (as do 70-80% of muslim women in Malaysia, the others don't cover their hair at all).

So yes, it can be a choice.

 

[Metrotab]

yeah, the sort that listens to what muslim women have to say

Some of the fiercest conservative anti-women voices in America are Christian women too.

I don't play that kind of identity politics.