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Automotive Discussion Thread | OT3 | Playing with our sticks while petting Jaguars!
- Thread starter AlphaSnake
- Start date
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Haha no I'm not riled up, it's a legitimate question on my part. What's the point of that car? It's so, so far beyond what you can use on the road, and the car is so, so far beyond the ability of most of its (future) owners on track, so what's the point? If it's too track oriented for the road and too capable for drivers on the track, then why?
As sports cars get faster and faster and faster when do we say enough is enough? Personally I've never really bought the "more horsepower is always the answer" line of thinking.
Edit: I did not intend to offend, please accept my humble apologies and this hot, fat exhaust.
As sports cars get faster and faster and faster when do we say enough is enough? Personally I've never really bought the "more horsepower is always the answer" line of thinking.
Edit: I did not intend to offend, please accept my humble apologies and this hot, fat exhaust.
It's an advertisement for the Camaros that people actually buy.
Edit: I did not intend to offend, please accept my humble apologies and this hot, fat exhaust.
I accept this.
Yeah pretty much. That and bragging rights I think.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
I honestly just thought it was a loaded up SS. Hahaha. It looked okay. Nothing special.
SliChillax
Member
You damn Americans are so spoiled. I saw 4 cyl Camaro the other dya and it got as much attention as the Ferrari 599 parked next to it. We're not used to seeing those proportions here in Europe.
So because you can't drive as well the rest who can take advantage of such car, they should be left with cars that don't advance in technology, speed and whatnot? If the ZL1 1LE is too much for you, get a ZL1. If that is also too much get an SS, or a V6. The Camaro who posted the lap time was completely normal, heated and cool seats and more options than my daily M235i. You also don't have to be as fast as Randy Pobst to enjoy it, it's not about setting lap records it's about how much enjoyment you get out of it even if you push the car only to 50% of its capabilities. You have the normal Camaro SS which is way faster than my M235i around the track but it's also more comfortable to daily drive. Being faster does not mean losing normal capabilities, not always. Cars like the Viper ACR I would agree, but the Camaro is a much easier car to push to its limits.
Edit: I did not intend to offend, please accept my humble apologies and this hot, fat exhaust.
But I do accept this.
jongkookie
Member
I agree with this but at the same time I love what Dodge is doing with the Hellcat and Demon so... ¯\_(ツ
_/¯I guess I just want a fun car to
The mental image of this is hilarious lol.
More housepower is always the answer.
shinshoryuken
Member
I drive like a grandma on the street but I like high horse power cars.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
lol, I came to post about the ZL1 lap time, and here's David, already shitting all over it ;p
Fuck that noise, I think it's cool as hell.
Sooommmewhat related, but I've been driving the Hellcat in track mode more and more just around town now that I'm more comfortable with it. I absolutely just DON'T whip it around tight corners - controlling it is more luck than skill if you try to do a burnout in anything other than a perfectly straight line. But for just driving around... sure, it's rough... my teeth rattle. But the whole car is so.much.more.fun. to drive. Period. Steering is tighter. Throttle is more responsive. I can feel the road pull me. The exhaust note when causing at ~2,200 RPM is just pure fucking sex. And maybe it's placebo - no idea if anything actually changed - but rowing the gears feels much quicker and more precise. My shifts are so much smoother. It seriously feels like a completely different vehicle.
Fuck that noise, I think it's cool as hell.
Sooommmewhat related, but I've been driving the Hellcat in track mode more and more just around town now that I'm more comfortable with it. I absolutely just DON'T whip it around tight corners - controlling it is more luck than skill if you try to do a burnout in anything other than a perfectly straight line. But for just driving around... sure, it's rough... my teeth rattle. But the whole car is so.much.more.fun. to drive. Period. Steering is tighter. Throttle is more responsive. I can feel the road pull me. The exhaust note when causing at ~2,200 RPM is just pure fucking sex. And maybe it's placebo - no idea if anything actually changed - but rowing the gears feels much quicker and more precise. My shifts are so much smoother. It seriously feels like a completely different vehicle.
Rapscallion
Member
Hi Automotive Gaf.
Sorry to be one of those seeking advice posts: but, I'm a complete noob when it comes to car related things. Just wondering if there were any tire brands you guys recommend or brands to stay away from. I'm looking for complete utility tires that don't need to do anything besides work well. I have a civic, if that helps. Also not looking to break the bank.
Sorry to be one of those seeking advice posts: but, I'm a complete noob when it comes to car related things. Just wondering if there were any tire brands you guys recommend or brands to stay away from. I'm looking for complete utility tires that don't need to do anything besides work well. I have a civic, if that helps. Also not looking to break the bank.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Read the user reviews on Tire Rack - they are extremely honest. Anything above an 8 is a solid tire. Anything below that I'd probably avoid despite Tire Rack's very friendly scale (hey, they have to make a sale right?).
jongkookie
Member
Btw, any of y'all still run radar detectors in 2017?
My Passport 8500 bit the dust this week so I'm wondering if I should still even get one since I'm always using Waze when I'm driving.
While I think cars like the Hellcat are fucking cool, I could never bring myself to ever buy a car like that as a primary vehicle. I prefer well balanced cars that can do everything. I'll take a small, well handling car that's fun to drive, nice interior, and comfy ride every time over more horsepower and amazing noice. If I had enough to own a Hellcat as a second car, I definitely would. Although I prefer the charger srt Hellcat over the challenger.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
It's about me personally and also in general. When I hear professional HPDE instructors talk about how dangerous and intimidating the high end cars are now I have to see the merits of their arguments. I spoke with a Ferrari club instructor recently who said flatly that he's not interested in driving or instructing anyone using, specifically, a Viper ACR.
Personally when I've seen these types of cars on track, the majority of them are slow in the corners and fast on the straights. Very few of their drivers are comfortable entering corners at speed after a straight with trail braking, and only gingerly apply power at corner exit. They're not learning anything about their own abilities or the abilities of their car while doing that--it's a waste. And furthermore they just become a pain in the ass because they won't let slower cars with faster drivers by.
The fast folks are the ones in run of the mill sports cars that have practiced with and modified. Last track day at Roebling a dude in a Porsche 997 S was at least ten seconds faster a lap than the guy in a new GT-R. Shit, even I passed the guy in the GT-R.
I agree with this but at the same time I love what Dodge is doing with the Hellcat and Demon so... ¯\_(ツ
I guess I just want a fun car tohoondrive around in?
Light, a little bit of power, tossable, and makes good noise. You don't need a ton of power to have that sort of fun, and at a certain point it just means you can't exploit the car at all on the streets.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yup, the more money than sense thing is so often a factor.
Though if all the reviews are to be believed, it should be really easy to drive those cars fast with all the driver aids?
I think you're confusing people and cars. The dickhead or cool person in the drivers seat shouldn't influence your opinion on the car alone. However, that's definitely difficult sometimes as certain people are drawn towards a certain type of car, creating a stereotype.
jongkookie
Member
And you just explained why I'm still unable to let my Miata go after at least a year of searching lol.
I really hate that there's no in-between the Miata and a Porsche, but I feel like I've been ranting about this at least once a week so I'll stop haha.
Hey now, not all Miata drivers are gay or hairdressers.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
It's not about a stereotype, it's about the skills of drivers.
If your car is too fast to be used fully on the road, and most buyers can't even come close to pushing the car to its limits on track, what's the point? Regardless of how impressive its capabilities are, and its existence being a general good, I don't see any value beyond it being a halo car to get buyers of other models in the dealerships.
Firstly, performance/speed isn't a fixed metric, a car being fast in corners or a straight line, or *too fast* to a point where the driver actively backs off in a corner or brakes early, does not mean the additional performance should not be there, or that it's pointless.
I really hate this sort of attack because it shows little regard for the car as a whole.
The cars performance being much higher than the drivers is a GOOD thing, because it means the driver can push it as far as they're able to and the car has much more to give, this allows the driver to grow and increase their driving skill, and means that the car is operating well within it's performance envelope, meaning it's much less likely to suffer a failure mechanically as a result of the driving since it's operating below it's peak performance.
Even if the driver never achieves a skill level to push it to it's limit, or if the cars limit is beyond that of *any* driver, it does not mean that the capability is pointless or lost.
Just look back at history, formula 1, indy 500, nascar, le mans, there was a time when the cars of yesterday were considered cutting edge and drivers would feel like they were incapable of squeezing the most out of them, then compare those cars to today and we see that as an evolution in that performance the maximum ability of the driver has increased, too.
Simply put, if it were possible for a professional driver, or even an average driver, to reach the maximum potential of a high end sports car, nobody would ever get faster, cars would never improve, technological breakthroughs in handling, suspension, drivetrain and tire design would cease because theres little reason to keep developing better systems.
Not every car is a powerhouse beast ready to challenge even the most skilled of drivers, infact only a fraction of cars on the road today come close, it's not like the industry as a whole is striving to make undrivable 1500hp monsters, most people drive regular vehicles, and many of those regular vehicles have directly benefitted from passed down development and engineering that was originally done on the higher end race focused vehicles.
With that in mind, how can you NOT see the value in a small portion of drivers and vehicles sold being high end thoroughbread machines dedicated to pushing the limits and developing new solutions to old problems.
Chassis design, saftey features, Suspension, Drivetrains, Engine management, Brake design, Tire design, Anti-roll systems, Traction control systems, Igition and timing systems, Aerodynamics, Injector optimization and general engine design as a whole, have all benefitted from developments and breakthroughs as a direct result of high end envelope-pushing vehicles, benefits that are now standard on your everyday vehicle.
Everyone benefits.
You can think this way about many things, not just cars. Are you forgetting that old sports cars were at one point in time the best available, and that you might currently own one of them?
What's quite amusing to me and seemingly everyone else in this thread is when something doesn't cater to your very specific taste and you really put an effort into shitting on it, as if all other perspectives are invalid and inferior to yours.
edit: props to Futuba for the more comprehensive reply lol
So it seems Mercedes is making an A class sedan, slotted below the CLA. Which is interesting cause I assumed the CLA was the A class sedan. I wonder what the price will be.
There are rumors of two AMG variants of the CLA/GLA cars as well.
There are rumors of two AMG variants of the CLA/GLA cars as well.
lol I was confused too. I thought it had origins as some racist word or something at first
nabe_shogun
Member
While I understand the frustration of someone in a fast car not letting others pass. I don't really agree about not having a fast car on the track. I mean, at least these people are taking their car to the track. You have to start somewhere, and not everyone can push a car close to its limits when they're new to track driving. I couldn't push my car to the limit the first couple times I went racing, and my car is slow as hell.
I'm pretty guilty of this. When I go to a car show with friends who know less than me about cars, I veer towards explaining things subjectively and sometimes without regard for the subculture the owner might be immersed in. It's just too easy find and critique things that aren't your style, ending up with a sense of superiority over something you truly don't even understand.
Recently I've tried to gravitate towards the type of cars I think are awesome and chat up the owners. This usually leads to conversations with owners about the cool stuff they've done, neat quirks they've found, how they've sourced rare parts, and stuff I didn't know about their cars.
I'm making a point of going to a drift event this summer to broaden my perspective a bit as well.
Btw, any of y'all still run radar detectors in 2017?
My Passport 8500 bit the dust this week so I'm wondering if I should still even get one since I'm always using Waze when I'm driving.
Are radar detectors not a thing anymore? I still use mine when I'm making city to city drives.
YuriLowell
Member
shinshoryuken
Member
Btw, any of y'all still run radar detectors in 2017?
My Passport 8500 bit the dust this week so I'm wondering if I should still even get one since I'm always using Waze when I'm driving.
I got rid on my valentine1 even with all the updates, I see the cops before it even beeps.
jongkookie
Member
^Sounds like my experience especially with Waze. I'm also stuck in traffic most of the time anyway so there's never a chance for me to speed. And even then, the spots where I speed are spots where cops would be obvious or too dangerous to hang out on the shoulder so idk lol.
Technically mine still works. The thing just goes to Self Cal once it gets ridiculously hot and it won't pick up anything.
I actually stick in my work bag now instead of leaving it in the glovebox lol.
I sorta want to get another one though but it seems like a moot point with Waze as it'll alert you half a mile away if there's a cop(provided somebody reportered it of course).
Also it's expensive af. You could buy an XboneX or 1080Ti for the money they're asking for... well the good ones at least.
Why does VA think they're for lovers? Place sounds like a damn hellhole if you ask me.
Technically mine still works. The thing just goes to Self Cal once it gets ridiculously hot and it won't pick up anything.
I actually stick in my work bag now instead of leaving it in the glovebox lol.
I sorta want to get another one though but it seems like a moot point with Waze as it'll alert you half a mile away if there's a cop(provided somebody reportered it of course).
Also it's expensive af. You could buy an XboneX or 1080Ti for the money they're asking for... well the good ones at least.
Why does VA think they're for lovers? Place sounds like a damn hellhole if you ask me.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
I have a V1. Use it when I drive down to Miami or Palm Beach
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
^^^ I still have a good one--a high end passport maybe--that has given me warning about laser pings before around corners. Easily saved me hundreds of dollars (and possibly jail time ).
I think you're exaggerating the benefit of having a fast car for letting drivers grow. I actually believe the opposite is true--drivers have always pushed the limits of cars, and specific to the bolded above, too fast a car limits the ability of a driver to learn. To effectively learn how to drive at the limit of a vehicle, the limits of that car must be accessible in a safe way for the driver. Only when a driver is used to dancing at the limit on a less capable car should they really consider moving up. Starting with a car with very high limits will only hamper the driver's growth; add in a number of modern driver's aids and the effect is even more pronounced.
As for the technological advancement aspect, I think the majority of that real advancement is in the racing side (hence top racing's enhanced focus on hybrid technologies) and then that filters back into the sports car segment to help fund the racing and from there down on to the standard cars. Why else would Toyota and Honda take part in F1 and LeMans, if not to improve the technology in their everyday vehicles where they make their money?
This is somewhat besides the point, though. I think it's crazy how quickly sports car lap times are decreasing, but at the same time I don't see what that does for anybody outside bragging rights for companies.
And really once you start putting mega front splitters on cars can you even call them road cars? I've gone full James May at this point, I think.
I'm not shitting on it. I'm asking why, and stating why I find it bewildering that something like the ZL1's Nurburgring time matters. It's not just this car, either.
I'm not saying you shouldn't bring fast cars on track, if you know how to handle a fast car on track then more power to you (excuse the pun). It's the people that pick up, say, a Z06 and show up at the track for the first time. They're not going to be fast and they're not going to learn how to drive their car at the limit because the limit is just so far out of grasp that reaching for it will be unsafe. They're better served driving a front wheel drive economy car on track for a while than taking their 500hp RWD sports car out. At least with that they can learn about limit braking, putting power down out of a corner, holding a car at the limit mid-corner, etc., without putting themselves or their instructor at risk.
But that's something else again.
Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I'm saying it doesn't matter to me how fast these cars can do laps. Maybe I think that once the only way to tell the difference between one road car and another is to take them to the track then the answer doesn't matter anymore.
).I think you're exaggerating the benefit of having a fast car for letting drivers grow. I actually believe the opposite is true--drivers have always pushed the limits of cars, and specific to the bolded above, too fast a car limits the ability of a driver to learn. To effectively learn how to drive at the limit of a vehicle, the limits of that car must be accessible in a safe way for the driver. Only when a driver is used to dancing at the limit on a less capable car should they really consider moving up. Starting with a car with very high limits will only hamper the driver's growth; add in a number of modern driver's aids and the effect is even more pronounced.
As for the technological advancement aspect, I think the majority of that real advancement is in the racing side (hence top racing's enhanced focus on hybrid technologies) and then that filters back into the sports car segment to help fund the racing and from there down on to the standard cars. Why else would Toyota and Honda take part in F1 and LeMans, if not to improve the technology in their everyday vehicles where they make their money?
This is somewhat besides the point, though. I think it's crazy how quickly sports car lap times are decreasing, but at the same time I don't see what that does for anybody outside bragging rights for companies.
And really once you start putting mega front splitters on cars can you even call them road cars? I've gone full James May at this point, I think.
I'm not shitting on it. I'm asking why, and stating why I find it bewildering that something like the ZL1's Nurburgring time matters. It's not just this car, either.
I'm not saying you shouldn't bring fast cars on track, if you know how to handle a fast car on track then more power to you (excuse the pun). It's the people that pick up, say, a Z06 and show up at the track for the first time. They're not going to be fast and they're not going to learn how to drive their car at the limit because the limit is just so far out of grasp that reaching for it will be unsafe. They're better served driving a front wheel drive economy car on track for a while than taking their 500hp RWD sports car out. At least with that they can learn about limit braking, putting power down out of a corner, holding a car at the limit mid-corner, etc., without putting themselves or their instructor at risk.
But that's something else again.
Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I'm saying it doesn't matter to me how fast these cars can do laps. Maybe I think that once the only way to tell the difference between one road car and another is to take them to the track then the answer doesn't matter anymore.
What can I say, I am surrounded by people who went out and bought 600+hp highly tuned vehicles as their first car, and I myself was driving my pop's 550HP MR2 AW11 on track before I was even old enough to obtain a license.
A fast car only goes as fast as you make it go.
And again, Everyone benefits from the existance of fast production cars, you just seem to latch on and hate certain aspects of that reality for some reason, and yet trip over yourself to show us your time on track in your 911, now what would you think if someone with a slower car than yours, questioned the need or existance of cars like yours, and pondered if there was even a point to it?, likely the same as everyone else here is thinking when you do exactly that.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Can we at least please agree this thing looks mean as hell from the front?
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Why is the Camaro getting more love than the Vette these days
I don't think it is. It's just that it's the new hotness.
Although, the fact that it's considerably cheaper than a Z06 is probably a major plus
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
I think you're making a lot more of my argument than I am.
I also understand that there's a very fuzzy line, even in my own head, for what makes sense in a road car. But I'm pretty confident that big front splitters, heavy aero and 600+hp are on the nonsensical side of that line. I think that line is entirely up for reasoned debate, and it's not like I'm the first to ever mention it--I've seen plenty of reviews saying, for instance, that the V6 F-Type is actually the better road car than the V8, specifically because the V8 is too much.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
There's a 2017 Grand Sport with 3K miles, manual, for $55K here local. Could probably talk down to, what, ~$52K? That's a monster of a deal for the kind of performance the new GS puts down.
SliChillax
Member
Well Motor Trend says that the ZL1 is better than the Z06, I don't know what to say about that cause I haven't driven both but I'd rather get a Camaro cause it's so much cheaper and so much behind in performance.
That is bullshit. Having driven both, the V8 is nowhere near too much. Sure if I give it to my grandma she'll think it's crazy but to me there was no moment I thought the car was too much. Having the tail go out when you turn off everything is normal, not unexpected and the car is very easy to control once the tail goes out. The V6 doesn't make enough power because the F-Type isn't that light, and it doesn't sound nowhere near as good.
The issue is you think the fuzzy line stops where your car ends.
shinshoryuken
Member
Oh snap.
SuperSonic1305
Member
Why is the Camaro getting more love than the Vette these days
Because the Camaro is the best car.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
The only time a V6 F-Type is better than a V8R is if it's an F-Type V6 6MT + ECU. And even, once you feel the explosion of a blown Jag V8...you might even reconsider.
Everyone should experience a supercharged 5-liter Jag at full beans.
Everyone should experience a supercharged 5-liter Jag at full beans.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
I'd have to look for it but I know I've seen the opinion expressed on a professional level.
I mean that's just not true at all and I've never said anything like that. There's a gulf a mile wide between a modern 650hp car with aero and a thirty year old car with under 200hp. If you're going to argue at least do so in good faith with me instead of a strawman.
Yes.
shinshoryuken
Member
Hmmmm.....lets go up in cylinders.
I test drove both an v8 r8 and a v10 r8 before..and i actually prefered the v8 due to the it being nimble and better sounding.
But in no way the v10 r8 was too much to drive. It was actually easier to drive...and more fun.
Kinda same with the old R35 GTR vs the newer R35. I know there were other compotent involved but added hourse power did not make it harder too drive.
I test drove both an v8 r8 and a v10 r8 before..and i actually prefered the v8 due to the it being nimble and better sounding.
But in no way the v10 r8 was too much to drive. It was actually easier to drive...and more fun.
Kinda same with the old R35 GTR vs the newer R35. I know there were other compotent involved but added hourse power did not make it harder too drive.
Yeah but those are AWD cars with computers controlling the wheelspin and four wheels putting down the power... Power doesn't really change that much with that sort of drivetrain. RWD and FWD change dramatically with added horsepower, for better or worse depending on the setup.
shinshoryuken
Member
Um..ferraris...the 458 is like way way easier to drive than a 360.