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[nintendoman58]

The difference is that Shinji felt like a well established human being I could easily empathize with whereas in Madoka Magica this doesn't happen at all. There's no immersion for me happening in there and I sort of distantly view the characters as being literally characters in a play. There was this unnatural feeling to the characters and story overall and it's actually really hard for me to pinpoint exactly just why Madoka Magica failed to immerse me at all.

Funny that you mention that, because there's a lot of elements of Madoka Magica that can be seen as parallels to Goethe's Faust, which was also a tragic play.

I feel like Madoka can be viewed the same way with the show being a tragedy.

 

[Szadek]

Shameless, LOL

You have seen nothing.This never happend!
*tosses smok grenade and runs*

 

[Puruzi]

Shameless, LOL

doujins yo

 

[TUSR]

cooking skills at the polar star dorm

 

[javac]

The difference is that Shinji felt like a well established human being I could easily empathize with whereas in Madoka Magica this doesn't happen at all. There's no immersion for me happening in there and I sort of distantly view the characters as being literally characters in a play. There was this unnatural feeling to the characters and story overall and it's actually really hard for me to pinpoint exactly just why Madoka Magica failed to immerse me at all.

Agreed. The idea that it's supposed to juxtapose their dire situation, a beacon of hope and at the same time the very detriment of them all is sound but just never pulled me in or felt as fleshed out as it should. You just kind of get thrown in the deep end and I never really felt that I was given a reason to care about her. General empathy I guess, but the character themselves felt really weak and the whole magical girl angle never managed to hook me. The series is beloved and a lot of people hold it in high regards, surprisingly enough even newcomers to anime seem to enjoy it, which is odd since like Evangelion you'd think that prior knowledge and understanding of the tropes being broken would be needed to get the full weight of it but I guess it can captivate people regardless. I could just never get into it. The artwork and sound never really stuck out to me either so maybe I'm just apathetic to the whole production.

 

[Line_HTX]

With both Erina and Alice.

 

[Droplet]

Oh, I thought you meant there was a specific reason they had to be so young and adorable.

So you sympathize with them when things go downhill? The show wouldn't work with more conventional character designs, and I think the style kind of puts you at a distance from the characters where you can't do anything to help them.

 

[Cornbread78]

cooking skills at the polar star dorm

Senpai #7 showed us it's possible.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Cocking skills can be useful in the kitchen though.

Cock Sauce IS delicious

Spoiler

mmmm sriraracha

 

[Jackpot]

Heavy Object 1-3

Kinda silly how the show instantly proved how fallacious the premise of "clean wars" was. Getting the object's manual and trying to blow up the spare turbines. Espionage and destroying the enemy's supply chain. Basic principles of war that would still exist and be practiced even if Objects have made all your attack vehicles obsolete.

 

[Russ T]

So you sympathize with them when things go downhill? The show wouldn't work with more conventional character designs, and I think the style kind of puts you at a distance from the characters where you can't do anything to help them.

I don't find it difficult to sympathize with realistic human beings that aren't designed to be cute, and also I don't find it hard to be distanced from characters in a fictional cartoon.

I'm much happier with hosanna's explanation. "Because that's what the character designer likes." That's totally a valid reason for me!

Agreed. The idea that it's supposed to juxtapose their dire situation, a beacon of hope and at the same time the very detriment of them all is sound but just never pulled me in or felt as fleshed out as it should. You just kind of get thrown in the deep end and I never really felt that I was given a reason to care about her. General empathy I guess, but the character themselves felt really weak and the whole magical girl angle never managed to hook me. The series is beloved and a lot of people hold it in high regards, surprisingly enough even newcomers to anime seem to enjoy it, which is odd since like Evangelion you'd think that prior knowledge and understanding of the tropes being broken would be needed to get the full weight of it but I guess it can captivate people regardless. I could just never get into it. The artwork and sound never really stuck out to me either so maybe I'm just apathetic to the whole production.

I suspect the reason people who aren't huge anime nerds can enjoy Eva and Madoka is because they're much more layered and meaningful than JUST being a deconstruction and/or subversion of their respective genres. so, even if you don't get "giant robots" or "magical girls", you can understand and empathize/be-disgusted-by/whatever-else with the rest of it.

I say this as someone who doesn't really like Eva at all, though. X:

 

[Qurupeke]

Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica 2

That fight was pretty awesome. The visual aspect of the show is really unique and the music really makes it even better. The concept of the witches is really creepy, even though it's not something new, it's certainly executed well in the show. All the characters associated with the magical girls are mysterious in their own way. It just seems like there are a lot more to anything that they say. Also, I didn't expect a concept like

Spoiler

suicide

so early to this.

And something else. What's going on with the school? It looks so luxurious and high tech. I'm jealous.

Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica 3

This is getting dark... The fights' choreography continues to be so good and the whole witch world is still as scary as ever. I actually expected a few episodes of happy adventures before this would become like that, but it doesn't hide its true colours... Not at all... Kyubei's expressionless face continues to be as creepy as the trippy witches though...

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Bakuman Episode 8

I didnt ever like this manga they did this episode as it always felt one of the weakest and probably most forgetable, by the end of the episode you dont even remember its name and even its character design. Oh well.

I wish Saiko did it.

 

[wonzo]

behead those that insult aokiume

 

[Line_HTX]

Cocking skills can be useful in the kitchen though.

Cock Sauce IS delicious

Spoiler

mmmm sriraracha

EWWW, Sriraccha

 

[jgminto]

Cowboy Bebop is a great show (10/10 imo) but the people who desperately cling to it don't want to hear that Yamato 2199 or Ping Pong or the best episode of Dandy S2 are as good or better, they just want to prop it up as an example of how shit was better in da 90z

And Trigun, what? Trigun isn't even close to that level

Vash and Wolfwood are Cool Dudes.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I suspect the reason people who aren't huge anime nerds can enjoy Eva and Madoka is because they're much more layered and meaningful than JUST being a deconstruction and/or subversion of their respective genres. so, even if you don't get "giant robots" or "magical girls", you can understand and empathize/be-disgusted-by/whatever-else with the rest of it.

I say this as someone who doesn't really like Eva at all, though. X:

A well done deconstruction is almost inherently interesting to me because that would imply somewhat well written characters and plot. A deconstruction takes a premise under scrutiny and conjures up a far more realistic story around it.

That's why I don't see how Evangelion shouldn't really work for newcomers. While those may not be accustomed to mecha tropes, they'll probably still be interested what would happen if somewhat realistic people were forced to pilot gigantic angle-robot amalgamations in order to prevent a calamity.

I myself had not seen any mecha show before I watched Evangelion, actually.

e: First paragraph was rather redundant >-<

 

[Admiral Woofington]

EWWW, Sriraccha

I hope you realize this means war

 

[Russ T]

A well done deconstruction is almost inherently interesting to me because that would imply somewhat well written characters and plot. A deconstruction takes a premise under scrutiny and conjures up a far more realistic story around it. That, to me personally, is kind of inherently interesting.

That's why I don't see how Evangelion shouldn't really work for newcomers. While those may not be accustomed to mecha tropes, they'll probably still be interested what would happen if somewhat realistic people were forced to pilot gigantic angle-robot amalgamations in order to prevent a calamity.

Yeah that's a much more eloquently stated version of what I was trying to say, haha.

i agree!

 

[javac]

behead those that insult aokiume

I'm not insulting her work, it just doesn't do anything for me.

....

I feel as if that could be considered an insult in and of itself...I'm sorry

 

[ShinRPGamer]

Wolf Children

I don't really want to say too much about this film because I feel Wolf Children is best watched when people don't know too much about the story. I will say this though. At times Wolf Children can be a heavy film to watch. But it can be heartwarming at the same time. It's a really good film and I recommend watching it if you haven't.

 

[Turin Turambar]

There's a reason the characters look the way they do

keep watching it

What's the reason for the wide faces?

 

[Cornbread78]

Heavy Object 1-3

Kinda silly how the show instantly proved how fallacious the premise of "clean wars" was. Getting the object's manual and trying to blow up the spare turbines. Espionage and destroying the enemy's supply chain. Basic principles of war that would still exist and be practiced even if Objects have made all your attack vehicles obsolete.

The whole show is over the top and silly which is why it's so fun to watch.

 

[MikeHattsu]

What's the reason for the wide faces?

Because wideface is best face

 

[Line_HTX]

I hope you realize this means war

Let's go at it at the battleground section of Anime Matsuri. You're going down, Woof!

>

 

[dimb]

"Deconstruction" and "subversion" are not interchangeable and have completely different meanings. Madoka's character designs are not part of some grand puzzle waiting to be put together to readjust how you interpret mahou shoujo material. Most of it is a marketable meeting of the minds, with some pieces turning out better than others. Just view the material at face value. Urobochi, Ume Aoki, and Shaft showed up to do stuff in a similar vein to what they'd been doing before.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Vash and Wolfwood are Cool Dudes.

I like Trigun and all and both those things are true but I would hesitate to put it on the same level as Bebop. Same with Outlaw Star.

"Deconstruction" and "subversion" are not interchangeable and have completely different meanings. Madoka's character designs are not part of some grand puzzle waiting to be put together to readjust how you interpret mahou shoujo material. Most of it is a marketable meeting of the minds, with some pieces turning out better than others. Just view the material at face value. Urobochi, Ume Aoki, and Shaft showed up to do stuff in a similar vein to what they'd been doing before.

Yep

 

[Phatmac]

Trigun is a classic. Up there with Bebop and the rest.

 

[Droplet]

I don't find it difficult to sympathize with realistic human beings that aren't designed to be cute, and also I don't find it hard to be distanced from characters in a fictional cartoon.

I'm much happier with hosanna's explanation. "Because that's what the character designer likes." That's totally a valid reason for me!

I really just wanted to say it makes the shock value go up, but I think that would be a little disrespectful to a property that clearly wants it to be something more. But you can't say it's just what the character designer likes, they chose the character designer who's well known for wide faces and big eyes to design characters with wide faces and big eyes! So there's still an intent there, regardless of if it's "you can market these characters" or "wouldn't it be new and interesting for these cute girls to get screwed over", and I suspect it lies somewhere in between.

 

[Sterok]

Yuru Yuri S3 9

Kids are cute the episode. Mari and Kaede have a lot of stalkers. Chizuru makes progress in life. Chitose gets close to figuring out what she wants from Ayano. Hah at Chinatsu blaming Akari for her absence.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I allowed myself to indulge further into Owarimonogatari and god damn, this episode 5 was bloody fantastic as well. Love the differentiating tones in Sadachi's voice whenever she goes from telling how she really feels to this sarcastic speech and factitious friendliness.

 

[Aaronrules380]

A well done deconstruction is almost inherently interesting to me because that would imply somewhat well written characters and plot. A deconstruction takes a premise under scrutiny and conjures up a far more realistic story around it.

That's why I don't see how Evangelion shouldn't really work for newcomers. While those may not be accustomed to mecha tropes, they'll probably still be interested what would happen if somewhat realistic people were forced to pilot gigantic angle-robot amalgamations in order to prevent a calamity.

I myself had not seen any mecha show before I watched Evangelion, actually.

e: First paragraph was rather redundant >-<

I don't think Evangelion's characters are realistic, nor do I think they're meant to be since they exist more to serve as an analogy for depression. Hell it's even outright stated that Eva pilots need to have some sort of severe mental trauma

 

[wonzo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNOXuurUODE

 

[ZachDeKoromaru]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNOXuurUODE

"Why do they call it ovaltine? The mug is wide, the jar is wide, they should call it widetine."

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

I allowed myself to indulge further into Owarimonogatari and god damn, this episode 5 was bloody fantastic as well. Love the differentiating tones in Sadachi's voice whenever she goes from telling how she really feels to this sarcastic speech and factitious friendliness.

Yeah her VA did a really amazing job.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I don't think Evangelion's characters are realistic, nor do I think they're meant to be since they exist more to serve as an analogy for depression. Hell it's even outright stated that Eva pilots need to have some sort of severe mental trauma

That is outright stated in Eva?

Besides, I'm not sure if you're currently mixing up realistic with 'average' or something because a realistic portrayal of a character is possible independent from his character attributes. Of course, the portrayal itself is a reflection of said attributes, but a character can be realistic whether he/she is an extremely happy, depressed or whatever else kind of character.

I don't see how the characters are meant to serve as analogy for depression either. First of all, Shinji for example simply is depressed, so it would be a kind of weird analogy for him and other potentially depressed characters to...represent depression. That the work that's Evangelion overall is to some part a reflection of Anno's own depression or experience thereof, that is an other matter.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

That is outright stated in Eva?

More or less. Everyone in Shinji's class had a deceased mother which could be implanted into an Eva unit which they need to function (except Rei.) Also I'm fairly certain (it's been a while) that you need a complete and total mental breakdown from an Eva pilot (maybe 01's in specific) in order to achieve the Third Impact and Instrumentality, thus them picking people with an unstable mental health, which happens at the end of EoE with Shinji.

 

[Aaronrules380]

That is outright stated in Eva?

Besides, I'm not sure if you're currently mixing up realistic with 'average' or something because a realistic portrayal of a character is possible independent from his character attributes. Of course, the portrayal itself is a reflection of said attributes, but a character can be realistic whether he/she is an extremely happy, depressed or whatever else kind of character.

I think so, I might be misremembering since it's been a while since I watched it

And yes a character can be realistic despite not being average. But Shinji's depression is way too extreme and is pretty much his sole characteristic. There really isn't much to Shinji beyond his depression and related issues. A real human being has more than just one defining trait

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I think so, I might be misremembering since it's been a while since I watched it

And yes a character can be realistic despite not being average. But Shinji's depression is way too extreme and is pretty much his sole characteristic. There really isn't much to Shinji beyond his depression and related issues. A real human being has more than just one defining trait

Shinji was way more than that, hence why I found him easy to empathize with. There's many smaller moments where he does show happiness. Lemme just name the aftermath of fighting Ramiel for instance (when he's relieved to find Rei in good health).

And yeh, overall his interaction with all the characters, Misato especially so, reveal little nuggets of characterization.

e:

More or less. Everyone in Shinji's class had a deceased mother which could be implanted into an Eva unit which they need to function (except Rei.) Also I'm fairly certain (it's been a while) that you need a complete and total mental breakdown from an Eva pilot (maybe 01's in specific) in order to achieve the Third Impact and Instrumentality, thus them picking people with an unstable mental health, which happens at the end of EoE with Shinji.

I mean that's a bit of a far cry from outright stating that everyone piloting Eva's required some sort of several mental trauma. It was not clearly visible that all those kids were as much affected by their loss as were e.g. Shinji and Asuka. Now it does make rather certain that the loss of a mother (perhaps father works too?) is necessary but it does not outright state some required mental state. Am also not sure if your last statement is that clearly told either. Never felt like Gendo and co. where specifically looking for extreme breakdowns to trigger third impact. Not sure though.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Shinji was way more than that, hence why I found him easy to empathize with. There's many smaller moments where he does show happiness. Lemme just name the aftermath of fighting Ramiel for instance (when he's relieved to find Rei in good health).

And yeh, overall his interaction with all the characters, Misato especially so, reveal little nuggets of characterization.

I disagree personally. None of the evangelion characters really came across as real people to me. They all had incredibly clear roles and existed for the sake of the depression allegory. Real people don't fall that neatly into such categories. And even if he wasn't constantly completely unhappy, I do think Shinji's depression was too extreme to be called realistic

 

[ponpo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S4QSpO9q6A

Oh god the comments. Anime vs. Islam 2016 ;_;

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I disagree personally. None of the evangelion characters really came across as real people to me. They all had incredibly clear roles and existed for the sake of the depression allegory. Real people don't fall that neatly into such categories. And even if he wasn't constantly completely unhappy, I do think Shinji's depression was too extreme to be called realistic

Yeh I could just say we're disagreeing then and be done with it...

but I really question what's so unbelievable about Shinji's depression. It's not like the guy just sits still in a corner for 26 episodes and we're given no background history on how his problems came to be.

Shinji does perform a lot of actions and we're giving a lot of insight into his damaging upcoming.

Now, he's not the most detailed, nuanced character out there like, say Chitanda from Hyouka or Koshiro from Koi Kaze. But there's still plenty to work with and, what's extremely important to me as well, his characterization is consistent.

 

[Puruzi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S4QSpO9q6A

Oh god the comments. Anime vs. Islam 2016 ;_;

did I miss something

what the

 

[Phatmac]

did I miss something

what the

lol just found the thread on /a/. Apparently Muslims are pissed since it references their religion that are taboo topics.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yeh I could just say we're disagreeing then and be done with it...

but I really question what's so unbelievable about Shinji's depression. It's not like the guy just sits still in a corner for 26 episodes and we're given no background history on how his problems came to be.

Shinji does perform a lot of actions and we're giving a lot of insight into his damaging upcoming.

Now, he's not the most detailed, nuanced character out there like, say Chitanda from Hyouka or Koshiro from Koi Kaze. But there's still plenty to work with and, what's extremely important to me as well, his characterization is consistent.

Consistent characterization isn't necessarily realistic. And having insight into why he's so depressed doesn't really mean there's much more to him beyond his depression. Shinji is very much characterized by his depression, and even the brief moments where he isn't completely depressed are just meant to be contrast to highlight it. If your definition of a deconstruction is a show that aims to explore how people would realistically act and react when placed in typical tropey situations, I don't think I can agree that Evangelion qualifies, since that's really not the intention at all. Eva is meant to be an allegory for depression. It's not meant to be how a mecha situation would realistically go down by any means, it's all about making a very specific point and exploring a very specific, somewhat abstract, concept. The characters are exaggerated to help achieve that.

 

[Puruzi]

lol just found the thread on /a/. Apparently Muslims are pissed since it references their religion that are taboo topics.

reading thread

holy shit I am dying

much better than /v/ being dumb about indivisble

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

Consistent characterization isn't necessarily realistic. And having insight into why he's so depressed doesn't really mean there's much more to him beyond his depression. Shinji is very much characterized by his depression, and even the brief moments where he isn't completely depressed are just meant to be contrast to highlight it. If your definition of a deconstruction is a show that aims to explore how people would realistically act and react when placed in typical tropey situations, I don't think I can agree that Evangelion qualifies, since that's really not the intention at all. Eva is meant to be an allegory for depression. It's not meant to be how a mecha situation would realistically go down by any means, it's all about making a very specific point and exploring a very specific, somewhat abstract, concept. The characters are exaggerated to help achieve that.

...

Oh c'mon, even when his depression doesn't dictate his actions it's just in order to serve his depression anyways?

That also isn't my definition of deconstruction, it's pretty universal. I'll link the TvTropes article because the Wiki one is even broader and lacking laymen terminology.

Last but not least, why would a bunch of depressed people be an allegory for depression? It would be a pretty terrible allegory then and if that's what Anno wanted to convey to us, then consider me laughing. If I take your suggestion serious, then what do the other elements in Evangelion represent if the characters represent depression.

Evangelion is a coming-of-age show and one that deals with more than depression.

 

[Aaronrules380]

...

Oh c'mon, even when his depression doesn't dictate his actions it's just in order to serve his depression anyways?

That also isn't my definition of deconstruction, it's pretty universal. I'll link the TvTropes article because the Wiki one is even broader and lacking laymen terminology.

Last but not least, why would a bunch of depressed people be an allegory for depression? It would be a pretty terrible allegory then and if that's what Anno wanted to convey to us, then consider me laughing. If I take your suggestion serious, then what do the other elements in Evangelion represent if the characters represent depression.

Evangelion is a coming-of-age show and one that deals with more than depression.

I really don't see how Eva can be considered a coming of age show, when literally all of the stuff dealing with Shinji moving past his depression in any way are shoved into the last two episodes (which likely would've been handled differently if there weren't production issues). And even that's way more about overcoming depression, and not growing up as a whole.

 

[Phatmac]

reading thread

holy shit I am dying

much better than /v/ being dumb about indivisble

/v/ has been terrible for a long time. At least /a/ is fine besides some lewd stuff.

 

[nintendoman58]

Consistent characterization isn't necessarily realistic. And having insight into why he's so depressed doesn't really mean there's much more to him beyond his depression. Shinji is very much characterized by his depression, and even the brief moments where he isn't completely depressed are just meant to be contrast to highlight it. If your definition of a deconstruction is a show that aims to explore how people would realistically act and react when placed in typical tropey situations, I don't think I can agree that Evangelion qualifies, since that's really not the intention at all. Eva is meant to be an allegory for depression. It's not meant to be how a mecha situation would realistically go down by any means, it's all about making a very specific point and exploring a very specific, somewhat abstract, concept. The characters are exaggerated to help achieve that.

Not necessarily. Evangelion is a deconstruction of the mecha genre not because of how realistic its characters act in typical tropey situations, but because of how wrong things can go depending on the different ways characters can react to those situations.

Corvo said it best in his Eva post a year ago, but the important parts are here:

Specifically, Evangelion is the biggest contrast to Mazinger Z. Getter Robo and Mobile Suit Gundam, and many other mecha anime run the gamut, but Mazinger Z is important because as the genre's progenitor it plays each and every one of the genre's conventions completely straight.

Consider the protagonists. Kouji Kabuto is a hot-blooded, young, idiot hero. His victories are the culmination of his fighting spirit and the Mazinger's power. The Mazinger is a gift to him from his grandfather, who'd spent his life building it in preparation for conflict with the Mecha Beasts. Shinji Ikari, meanwhile, is a troubled young man who is both a coward and prone to over-thinking things. His victories are less a result of his indomitable will and more often the result of something within him breaking. His father had spent his life building the Evas to combat the Angels. Herein we see that Evangelion dedicates itself to setting itself up as being your standard super robot show while simultaneously preparing for its deconstruction. The Mazinger Z is supposed to grant Kouji the power to be either a God or a Devil, a power which Evangelion Unit 01 also is said to hold.

Over the course of the series, Shinji attempts to undergo more or less the same path that all hot-blooded mecha heroes do. He rises, only to fall so that he may burst from the ashes and prove his true worth. For much of the series, though, Shinji fails again and again at doing that. When Shinji attempts to be a hero and save Toji and confront his father using Unit 01, for instance, Gendo quickly gains the upper hand both times. When Kaworu presents Shinji with an unwinnable conflict, rather than doing the impossible and finding a win-win situation, Shinji gives in to one of the two choices. What's most interesting of all, however, is that where much of the series is spent showing how the standard conventions of a giant robot anime would have terrible consequences or be moments of unfathomable horror, the show's ending is almost complete turn about. Shinji's realization that he can change, that he can find love and that he can overcome pain is his doing the impossible and finding a way out of the set parameters.