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[stotch]

First of all, I don't like the freedom. I like scripted games.

Secondly, do people even read my posts, or just jerk their knees into the keyboard? I said PLATFORMING in a car isn't the same as PLATFORMING with a humanoid character. Are you trying to argue that they are the same? That they control the same, feel the same, respond the same? Not once did I have to worry about Banjo falling over is I turned too sharply. There, I just proved that they're different. I also said they both can be platforming.

So Banjo 3 might involve players doing everything they did in previous Banjo games, but this time with custom abilities instead of pre-set ones? For people who care about Banjo's gameplay and not the protaganist' shape, that's an evolution. How are you going to argue with human preference like that, and yet you've been doing it long since Crushed has been gone. Have some survivors' guilt!

 

[abacab driver]

First of all, I don't like the freedom.

Ah gotcha, n/m.

 

[Sydle]

And what type of objectives will we be trying to accomplish? Building a device to suck up coconuts, then changing that device into a helicopter to pick up/carry objects, then changing that device into a boat for some other purpose is not the same as changing into a Bee so you can get into a beehive, then changing into a croc to compete eating apples with another croc.

Also, outside of the hub (since I don't have enough info on that yet), there's going to be very little platforming not involving a vehicle. Platforming in a car is different than platforming with a humanoid character. That's a departure.

You're not making sense.

Chaging into a bee to get into a bee hive is essentially the same thing as using a flying machine to get up into the sky. It's a means to an end. BKNB gives you the option to come up with your own means.

Getting onto a high ledge with a jump or jumping up there with a vehicle is still jumping.

Banjo wasn't defined by what you did, but rather by how you did it.

What? You didn't have a choice about how you did anything in the previous games. I played through those games multiple times and it was the same experience every time.

 

[abacab driver]

I just noticed that Kazooie has two different "Mumbo wrenches" in these images. I suppose they each have different abilities. Then again, it's also possible the two images are from different builds in which the artists' have redesigned the wrench.

It probably just changes color/animates accordingly when it does what it does.
Either way, looks cool.

 

[Teknoman]

It probably just changes color/animates accordingly when it does what it does.
Either way, looks cool.

Definatly. Cant be different build, those screenshots are both from what was revealed at the event today right?

EDIT: Why do I keep imagining those penguins to have Beatles-esque voices?

 

[Nicktals]

You're not making sense.

Chaging into a bee to get into a bee hive is essentially the same thing as using a flying machine to get up into the sky. It's a means to an end. BKNB gives you the option to come up with your own means.

Getting onto a high ledge with a jump or jumping up their with a vehicle is still jumping.


What? You didn't have a choice about how you did anything in the previous games. I played through those games multiple times and it was the same experience every time.

What machine can I build that would allow me to get into a beehive laying on the ground? You could get into the beehive by jumping and gliding with Banjo and Kazooie. You just couldn't get the Jiggy until you got up there as a Bee. Those character specific scenarios, and there were a lot of them...are (presumably) gone. I'm not just talking about accessibility.


And yes, you do play through it essentially the same way, which I like (scripted as opposed to open game design). That's not what I was talking about in my comment. I was saying that using a machine to fly to a high area isn't nearly as interesting to me as using a unique form, such as a bee.

Ah gotcha, n/m.

I'm not sure if you were trying to imply something like an inferiority of scripted to open game design or not...But I'll assume you weren't.

 

[abacab driver]

Definatly. Cant be different build, those screenshots are both from what was revealed at the event today right?

EDIT: Why do I keep imagining those penguins to have Beatles-esque voices?

Because the one on the left looks like Ringo. :lol

 

[squicken]

Okay I've read the OP, and not gonna read the rest of this terrible thread. They scrapped 18 months of work on Banjo and started over?

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3167786

1UP: Along those lines, how long do you stick with something before you abandon it? Has stuff gone pretty far down the line and not made it?

GM: Yeah, it varies. Some were almost immediately killed even before any real work is done in earnest, you can see that it's not going to work. Sometimes it's a few months. Previous to Banjo-Kazooie, I was actually working on a game for 18 months before we decided this isn't working out rather than taking the probably easier option of finishing it and just getting it out. We thought, "No, we want to do something that is going to be remembered or is different or that we're going to be proud of rather than just finishing something for finishing's sake." So we said, we're not going to carry on with it, trying to make the right decision instead of the easiest ones every time.

1UP: Is [your method] pretty much starting from scratch on something, then, or using a lot of that left-over project, whatever it is, and incorporating some of those ideas into other things? Because it seems like there's some overlap between the teams.

GM: Sometimes. In terms of the project I just mentioned, it had a bear in it called Banjo, and we just thought we can do something with this character. So we took the character out of the game that we were working on and put it into the game that everyone knows as Banjo-Kazooie. The 18 months weren't a complete waste of time. We did get some bits and pieces from it.

 

[icecream]

Those character specific scenarios, and there were a lot of them...are (presumably) gone..

Because they have most likely been replaced with evolved machine-specific scenarios.

 

[abacab driver]

I was saying that using a machine to fly to a high area isn't nearly as interesting to me as using a unique form, such as a bee.

The whole point is to leave the uniqueness to you.
But like you said, you don't want that.

 

[HK-47]

Because they have most likely been replaced with evolved machine-specific scenarios.

evolved has yet to be determined.

 

[watkinzez]

Okay I've read the OP, and not gonna read the rest of this terrible thread. They scrapped 18 months of work on Banjo and started over?

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3167786

Gregg's referring to "Dream" there- the game the DKC2 team were making and what became Banjo-Kazooie. Was a SNES project.

 

[temjin]

http://kotaku.com/5008885/banjo+kazooie-hot-new-bird-on-bear-action'
hah. this looks fantastic. looks and sounds like classic banjo with added goodness.

 

[Rad Agast]

What machine can I build that would allow me to get into a beehive laying on the ground? You could get into the beehive by jumping and gliding with Banjo and Kazooie. You just couldn't get the Jiggy until you got up there as a Bee.

Maybe create a Mechanical Bee? I don't know. I think I'll go out now. You guys have fun here

 

[jordan0386]

NVM

 

[grandjedi6]

I'm excited for this game but ughhh that trailer was awful

 

[Nicktals]

Because they have most likely been replaced with evolved machine-specific scenarios.

There's a little I could see them doing there, something like certain characters who only trust bears on motorcycles, but again, that's nowhere near as interesting to me. And they'd still be talking to Banjo, as a bear. How much else could they do with that? I think making more than one character who only talks to bears on _____ would start to feel contrived very rapidly. Again, more than likely it will just boil down to accessibility. People will talk to you once you can reach them.

The whole point is to leave the uniqueness to you.
But like you said, you don't want that.

No machine I build is going to be as interesting to me. Anything truly unique I'd want to build (like that 8-bit mario car) would take too long, and probably be impractical for the goal. Sure, it could be different/funny, and I could have a days worth of fun sitting there and screwing around. But it's not anything like having a bee or crocodile or termite.

 

[Stahsky]

No machine I build is going to be as interesting to me. Anything truly unique I'd want to build (like that 8-bit mario car) would take too long, and probably be impractical for the goal. Sure, it could be different/funny, and I could have a days worth of fun sitting there and screwing around. But it's not anything like having a bee or crocodile or termite.

Then all is lost for you, son.

 

[AdventureRacing]

The thing that bothers me most about this thread is the amount of hate the original BK games usually get. When they are brought up they are lambasted for being mario clones / collectathons. Now rare goes and does something to change the series and make it unique (and less of a collectathon) and it is criticized for not sticking to the original formula.

I'm a huge fan of the original games but i am still hyped through the roof for this game and the hate train in this thread hasn't done anything to affect that. If i want some original Banjo platforming goodness i'll go play my copies of banjo 1 and 2.

 

[soco]

It's part of a larger piece of the interview about the creation of Midna. Midna wasn't created because she was a Twili from the Twilight Realm blah blah blah. Midna was created because it was something on Link's back as a wolf that could help him attack. Her design was functional first. That's the point with Yoshi. They weren't looking to create a green dinosaur pal for Mario. With Nuts and Bolts, I doubt they were looking for something functional first, since Banjo-Kazooie could pretty much do all that other stuff anyway.

yeah i got your point, and that's cool, but i was just commenting on how i think his specific comments there were bullshit or poorly translated.

speaking to this though, isn't adding the creativity and the building a new function? it works in a different direction from pretty much everything else we've ever seen except perhaps Little Big Planet, but it's a new functionality. if you were making that game and really wanted to evolve the series while keeping the same basic gameplay, what would you do?

 

[FrankT]

I'm excited for this game but ughhh that trailer was awful

The trailer seems a bit wonky, but this HD footage here is just Aces;

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/33904.html

 

[Blader]

Okay I've read the OP, and not gonna read the rest of this terrible thread. They scrapped 18 months of work on Banjo and started over?

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3167786

That's the original Banjo-Kazooie he's talking about, not Nuts & Bolts.

 

[CowboyAstronaut]

Tired of the feuding between bear, bird and witch, a new player has stepped in: the mysterious Lord of Games (LOG), said to have been involved in creating every videogame ever released. He whisks the rivals away to his creative HQ in Showdown Town, and into an elaborate series of challenges held within his hand-made worlds. The winner gets the ownership deeds to Spiral Mountain, the loser an eternity of toil in LOG's videogame factory. The game is on!

Awesome :lol

I'm going to probably die of laughter if this "LOG" ends up resembling a game designer we actually know

 

[Sydle]

What machine can I build that would allow me to get into a beehive laying on the ground? You could get into the beehive by jumping and gliding with Banjo and Kazooie. You just couldn't get the Jiggy until you got up there as a Bee. Those character specific scenarios, and there were a lot of them...are (presumably) gone. I'm not just talking about accessibility.


And yes, you do play through it essentially the same way, which I like (scripted as opposed to open game design). That's not what I was talking about in my comment. I was saying that using a machine to fly to a high area isn't nearly as interesting to me as using a unique form, such as a bee.



I'm not sure if you were trying to imply something like an inferiority of scripted to open game design or not...But I'll assume you weren't.

You're not having to access bee hives anymore (maybe mechanical ones?), but some other location. It's essentially the same thing. You gain access by accessing new abilities (parts). It's not radically different at all.

It looks to me like Banjo spends some time out of the vehicles, so the scenarios where you have to use just Banjo or a vehicle of some sort look to be intact. I think the ability to use a flying machine of my own design is far more interesting than using a bee. A subjective matter that I don't care to discuss.

I have fun with scripted platformers (Jak, Ratchet, Banjo, Daxter, etc; I have all the installments of all the games in each of those series), but this just blows them away because I love problem-solving and building stuff.

I'm not here to change your mind about what you like, but your argument about it being a depature for the series in terms of mechanics is flawed. On the surface it looks totally different, but if you examine what's driving it forward then it looks quite familiar.

 

[Odrion]

Banjo sure does run like a retard.

 

[Teknoman]

Maybe create a Mechanical Bee? I don't know. I think I'll go out now. You guys have fun here

MECHA BEE!!

Because the one on the left looks like Ringo. :lol

Heh now I really wont be able to get it out of my head :lol

 

[Alaskanbullworm]

Well it seems the comment made before about visiting past levels and stuff from the previous games has been kind of shown in the pics and videos. Looks like there's a level/section called BanjoLand, which more than likely has something to do with LOG how he's the creator of all games.


I don't care what anyone says about this, I'll be happily playing this come November.

 

[Gassey]

I want a platformer.
I don't want to play Banjo Kadrivey.

 

[Blader]

Well it seems the comment made before about visiting past levels and stuff from the previous games has been kind of shown in the pics and videos. Looks like there's a level/section called BanjoLand, which more than likely has something to do with LOG how he's the creator of all games.


I don't care what anyone says about this, I'll be happily playing this come November.

Wait, what?

 

[MisterHero]

Wait, what?

BanjoLand

 

[Rlan]

Wait, what?

 

[Teknoman]

Treasure Trove Cove better be in the game.

 

[JordoftheDead]

Its platforming. period.
The only departure is the departure from "power ups" in favor of letting the user create their own "power ups"

BUT I DUN LIKE DIS FREEDOM

Exactly.

People really don't like change do they?

 

[Nicktals]

You're not having to access bee hives anymore (maybe mechanical ones?), but some other location. It's essentially the same thing. You gain access by accessing new abilities (parts). It's not radically different at all.

It looks to me like Banjo spends some time out of the vehicles, so the scenarios where you have to use just Banjo or a vehicle of some sort look to be intact. I think the ability to use a flying machine of my own design is far more interesting than using a bee. A subjective matter that I don't care to discuss.

I have fun with scripted platformers (Jak, Ratchet, Banjo, Daxter, etc; I have all the installments of all the games in each of those series), but this just blows them away because I love problem-solving and building stuff.

I'm not here to change your mind about what you like, but your argument about it being a depature for the series in terms of mechanics is flawed. On the surface it looks totally different, but if you examine what's driving it forward then it looks quite familiar.

No, the mechanics are different. I can't turn on a dime without modding a vehicle to do it. I can't glide without modding/buying a vehicle to do it. About halfway through BK, you pretty much had every move you needed at your disposal, wherever you went, except for the jiggys that you needed to transform for. You won't have every move available to you wherever you go in this game, unless the on the fly modding is a lot more powerful than it's made out to be.

And again, you're boiling it down to accessibility. A lot of my enjoyment came from doing things in other forms, as essentially other characters. Having access to different locations via a new machine is different than having certain events happen when you access certain locations in a certain form, in gameplay and in story/atmosphere. Having the bees think your a bee after you access the hive as a bee is not the same as just being able to access a new location based on a new part you just got. You're still going to be Banjo, everyone is still going to treat you as a bear. There's not going to be variety in that sense. Sure there will be variety among the different NPCs, but again, it's very different.

 

[soldat7]

Read even more previews tonight. This is probably my #2 game behind NG2 for 2008.

...then again, I've graduated from Plastic Blocks->Wood Blocks->Lincoln Logs->Fat Legos->Tinker Toys->Constructs->Small Legos, so Nuts and Bolts seems like a natural next step for me.

 

[Stahsky]

Exactly.

People really don't like change do they?

To the people who loved the originals: They want what they played before

To the haters: They don't feel like hating new material


And to the few: They just want a good game

 

[squicken]

Gregg's referring to "Dream" there- the game the DKC2 team were making and what became Banjo-Kazooie. Was a SNES project.

That's the original Banjo-Kazooie he's talking about, not Nuts & Bolts.

Thanks for the info. I couldn't tell exactly which game he was talking about.

 

[Brashnir]

I just can't get over how many people Rare have disappointed with this game. They'll be kicking themselves to know they could have sold millions with a simple trad-platformer.

it's like 30 douchebags on the internet. They won't be missed.

 

[soldat7]

Halo 3, GTAIV, NG2, and GoW2 (and the other GoW2) are all criticized for being TOO SIMILAR to their past iterations.

BK:N&B comes along making some radical and possibly innovative changes and people cry.

 

[AniHawk]

yeah i got your point, and that's cool, but i was just commenting on how i think his specific comments there were bullshit or poorly translated.

speaking to this though, isn't adding the creativity and the building a new function? it works in a different direction from pretty much everything else we've ever seen except perhaps Little Big Planet, but it's a new functionality. if you were making that game and really wanted to evolve the series while keeping the same basic gameplay, what would you do?

Not every series needs to evolve. NiGHTS worked perfectly fine before they added all other sorts of bullshit gameplay options. Mario worked pretty well before they wanted to make his game a buddy-platformer (like Banjo-Kazooie, Jak and Daxter, and Ratchet & Clank).

I just thought of what the game reminds me of, and it's a Spore video with Will Wright from two years ago. That's what interests me about the vehicle customization, that it works (or doesn't work) just how I design it. I think what worries some people, myself included, is that the world won't be the right size for vehicular platforming, that it will either be too small for vehicles or too big for Banjo to have any fun in. Even though BK and BT weren't all about platforming, there's a concern that the game will focus on strictly non-platforming events, like how Jak II did, or that the emphasis of on-foot platforming will be greatly lessened.

EDIT: You know, if there were more platformers out there, I wonder if this would be getting the negative attention it has been here. The genre has been somewhat forgotten since the end of the N64/PSX/Saturn era and the return of one of the defining games of that generation being so very different is shocking and disappointing to some people.

I'm kinda reminded of the Toon Link backlash from the initial trailer of TWW in 2001.

 

[Blader]

BanjoLand

Okay, but where was it hinted at that you could revisit levels from old games in BanjoLand?

 

[MisterHero]

Okay, but where was it hinted at that you could revisit levels from old games in BanjoLand?

I don't know about that part, I was just showing the pic of BanjoLand.

Sorry. Would be interesting if true, though.

 

[Alaskanbullworm]

SNS back to taunt us!

Taken from RWP, happens in the trailer:

I mean, it might not be like revisting levels in a way, it's still speculation.

 

[Terrell]

This looks like a whining convention.

EVERYBODY says the game looks fun, yet you all just want an HD Banjo 1 to jump around in. This is reason why games don't evolve. First, people complain that they change the game too little, but when they do a massive shift, they do too much. All previews are glowing. Banjo has returned in a great way and all you all are thinking is about how you can't spin jump to get notes. That's sad.

Gaming sites give "glowing" reviews to merely passable games all the time.

 

[Salmonax]

BK:N&B comes along making some radical and possibly innovative changes and people cry.

You can't have both, people.

It's possible to recognize this as an innovation and not particularly care for it. It's not like the only choice they had was between the same game rehashed and this vehicle-centric version.

Personally, I'm fine with the vehicle customization if they tone down the complexity of the build shop. Somehow studying a wall of stats doesn't mesh with the level of elegant and unfettered fun I've come to expect from the franchise.

My real apprehension comes from the level of complexity this introduces for Rare. I'm just not sure I trust them to be able to deliver a polished game with such an open-ended mechanic. It seems like they've made things really difficult for themselves. But we shall see.

 

[Nicktals]

Not every series needs to evolve. NiGHTS worked perfectly fine before they added all other sorts of bullshit gameplay options. Mario worked pretty well before they wanted to make his game a buddy-platformer (like Banjo-Kazooie, Jak and Daxter, and Ratchet & Clank).

I just thought of what the game reminds me of, and it's a Spore video with Will Wright from two years ago. That's what interests me about the vehicle customization, that it works (or doesn't work) just how I design it. I think what worries some people, myself included, is that the world won't be the right size for vehicular platforming, that it will either be too small for vehicles or too big for Banjo to have any fun in. Even though BK and BT weren't all about platforming, there's a concern that the game will focus on strictly non-platforming events, like how Jak II did, or that the emphasis of on-foot platforming will be greatly lessened.

EDIT: You know, if there were more platformers out there, I wonder if this would be getting the negative attention it has been here. The genre has been somewhat forgotten since the end of the N64/PSX/Saturn era and the return of one of the defining games of that generation being so very different is shocking and disappointing to some people.

I'm kinda reminded of the Toon Link backlash from the initial trailer of TWW in 2001.

You're over looking that it's still a platformer and all the mechanics are the same as they were in BK and BT. It's just car platforming.

 

[MisterHero]

what I want to know is if I can put Banjo in roller-blades

 

[BlueSummers]

Been following this thread since the start. First..my hats off to you Crushed for defending Banjo as you have done through this entire thread. I dont understand all the hate. I bet if it was Banjo HD there would be a TON of pepople saying that its just more of the same from 8 years ago. Rare tries something new and everyone attacks them.

People can be skepticle, but at least wait until we see some more footage of how these vehicles are used people! We already have one for picking up coconuts and seeing how far you can launch yourself. Someone from Rare also said something about building a rocket ship and almost going into space. How cool is that?

Instead of bashing this game, you should be thinking about all the cool oppurtunities these vehicles can provide! It is also 6 months away and it can be delayed if Rare dosent think it is ready. Im sure the graphics will be cleaned up,more things going on in the world and plenty of creative and innovative ways to use the vehicles. PLEASE hold off on bashing this game SO hard until we see more of it. It shows great promise and who knows..it could be a step foward in right direction for the platforming genre.

 

[AniHawk]

what I want to know is if I can put Banjo in roller-blades

See, this is why this customizable stuff should've been in JFG2 instead, except there would be customizable suits instead of vehicles. Rocket boots!

 

[SarBear]

Been following this thread since the start. First..my hats off to you Crushed for defending Banjo as you have done through this entire thread. I dont understand all the hate. I bet if it was Banjo HD there would be a TON of pepople saying that its just more of the same from 8 years ago. Rare tries something new and everyone attacks them.

People can be skepticle, but at least wait until we see some more footage of how these vehicles are used people! We already have one for picking up coconuts and seeing how far you can launch yourself. Someone from Rare also said something about building a rocket ship and almost going into space. How cool is that?

Instead of bashing this game, you should be thinking about all the cool oppurtunities these vehicles can provide! It is also 6 months away and it can be delayed if Rare dosent think it is ready. Im sure the graphics will be cleaned up, the framerate made steady, more things going on in the world and plenty of creative and innovative ways to use the vehicles. PLEASE hold off on bashing this game SO hard until we see more of it. It shows great promise and who knows..it could be a step foward in right direction for the platforming genre.

hmmm