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Batman vs Superman: World's Finest Three-Year Wait

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All New Batman Adventures designs barring Scarecrow were ass.

That's not true.

Bruce and Batman both looked better after the change. In fact, the Joker is the only change for the worse, but they fixed that by ROTJ. Most of the animation was much more nuanced as well. Less flat moments in the episodes overall. And the dialogue was a lot tighter.
 

Nesotenso

Member
What did people think of:

iUuTTxi.jpg


?

What did I think? I really, really liked it. Thought it was interesting how the league assembled in a night and kind of the interactions between the characters as they start to team up. Kind of felt like they were going for that 'epic' live action feeling.

it was terrible. Haven't seen the new Batman feature but DC's direct to DVD offerings have gotten significantly worse. I also don't like the characterizations in the new 52. Bruce Timm did the best work bringing the DC characters to life in an outside medium.
 

ReiGun

Member
I still think there's little hope for getting the original 7 Leaguers for the movie. In so much as I think Manhunter is definitely out. I'm betting the team is Supes, Bats, WW, Flash, GL, Cyborg, and Aquaman. Maybe Shazam if the rumors shake out.

So, The New Batman Adventures, they really fucked up The Joker redesign.

GM1Gzqu.jpg


I really really hate it.

I think Nostalgia Credit put it best: Why would you drain all of the color from the Joker of all characters? It's not a bad design in and of itself, but it doesn't really work for the character.
 
What did people think of:

iUuTTxi.jpg


?

What did I think? I really, really liked it. Thought it was interesting how the league assembled in a night and kind of the interactions between the characters as they start to team up. Kind of felt like they were going for that 'epic' live action feeling.
I dunno, I guess I liked it. I enjoyed GL being an ass but it was really weird seeing him like that (but I remember someone said Hal was like that in his first days as a GL?). Flash almost had 0 screen time. Superman and WW relationship was pathetic and funny to me lol I don't care about Shazam or Cyborg, I want mah MM and Aquaman back.

Also I really really really really really really hope they use the first League (Trinity, Flash, GL, Aquaman and MM) but so far, it looks like they won't. :/
 

Lashley

Why does he wear the mask!?
I dunno, I guess I liked it. I enjoyed GL being an ass but it was really weird seeing him like that (but I remember someone said Hal was like that in his first days as a GL?). Flash almost had 0 screen time. Superman and WW relationship was pathetic and funny to me lol I don't care about Shazam or Cyborg, I want mah MM and Aquaman back.

Also I really really really really really really hope they use the first League (Trinity, Flash, GL, Aquaman and MM) but so far, it looks like they won't. :/

Aquaman is gonna be in the sequel
 

Sephzilla

Member
do you think we will get a shot equal to this in Justice League :p

GorgeousHighLcont.gif

if justice league can deliver something that's even half as great as this moment, i could walk away from the movie happy. seriously, that circle moment in avengers turned me into an 8 year old
 
I'm sure they're in this thread somewhere, but the shots of the broken Metropolis police cars and smashed Wayne sign are just a damn tease. I also knew as soon as I heard the casting, that Affleck would look great as Bruce Wayne and damn was I right.

Also, as far as JL villains go, I'm pretty sure Ultron wasn't the original plan for Avengers 2 and they changed it at some point to get ahead of anything DC had coming. Some people will look and go "rip off!" but they won't matter. If it is done right, it will be amazing.
 

Blader

Member
I'm sure they're in this thread somewhere, but the shots of the broken Metropolis police cars and smashed Wayne sign are just a damn tease. I also knew as soon as I heard the casting, that Affleck would look great as Bruce Wayne and damn was I right.

Also, as far as JL villains go, I'm pretty sure Ultron wasn't the original plan for Avengers 2 and they changed it at some point to get ahead of anything DC had coming. Some people will look and go "rip off!" but they won't matter. If it is done right, it will be amazing.

What? Not only was Ultron always the plan, but how could Marvel change course to get ahead of a movie that hadn't even been announced until a year ago?
 
Joss Whedon clowned captain america

Cap 2 redeemed him and black widow for sure, it sucks they're going back to be ruined yet again by him

I hope batman fights similar to him in this, dudes hand to hand scenes rocked
 
That shoot is awesome till you get to Captain America's pajamas. Then it falls apart for me. what a terrible looking costume.

Penis-Head Cap!

From what I remember, there was a reason that Superman didn't care about the destruction he caused during the fight -- no one was living there at that moment. I think it was a city being unveiled by Luthor (that's why there are buildings named after him and a statue of him).

That was because of S&P. We know the truth. ;p
 
In the episode, Superman has a hunch theres a bomb under the city. So he LEVELS the fucking uninhabited city in a fight with Shazam to get to the bomb so it doesn't go off. And destroy the city.

Not one of his better days.
 

ReiGun

Member
Not at all related to the movie, but I found it interesting and wanted to share (it does cite MoS as an example).

The True Last Son of the House of El – How Val-Zod is Ending the Age of the Deconstruction of Superman

Something is wrong with Superman. In fact, something has been wrong with Superman for twenty years. The Man of Steel is one of the DC Universe’s first and greatest heroes, using his array of extremely powerful abilities to defend his adopted homeworld from all manner of threats. But beyond his immense power, Superman’s strength resides in his role as a symbol of hope. Where Batman inspires fear in criminals, and the Green Lantern – as a member of an intergalactic police force – apprehends and punishes criminals, Superman does what he does out of a genuine belief in the inherent goodness of people. He is one of the few superheroes with a truly positive opinion of humanity. His mythology lives up to the emblem on his chest; the Kryptonian symbol for hope which serves as the shield of the House of El.

For the past twenty years, however, hope has taken a serious backseat in the character’s mythos. Though Superman stories remained fairly steadfast through the anti-heroism of the Bronze Age of Comics, they reached a breaking point in 1992 when Superman died defeating the savage Kryptonian monster Doomsday. The event posed the question of what fills the void left by an absent Superman; a question that – for the past two decades – has eclipsed the quotidian optimism of the Man of Steel, presenting in its place a barrage of cynical anti-heroes, despotic psychopaths, and other well-intentioned menaces to society meant to deconstruct Kal-El of Krypton.

...

Kal-El’s death in 1992 was as much a symbolic death as it was a literal one. It presented a world in which Superman’s presence could no longer be felt and from that moment on the perspective never switched back. The subsequent deconstruction of the Man of Steel can be broken down into a couple of broad categories: that of philosophy, in which Kal-El’s traditional optimism and faith in humanity falters; that of morality, in which his acts, though technically heroic and done in the name of good, come at a high cost to his traditional moral standard; and that of being, in which his inherent goodness is called into question or thrown out the window entirely.

The most palatable of the three, the philosophical deconstruction of Kal-El is also the most prevalent. The portrayal of the character in Man of Steel is a terrific example; Kal is deeply distrustful of humanity, in large part due to the cynical world view of Jonathan Kent. This doesn’t come at the expense of his morality, but it shows in his initial hesitation to either cooperate with or confront Zod.

...

Which, of course, brings us back to Val-Zod.

His significance lies in his direct contradiction of the trajectory of Superman mythology over the past twenty years. He breaks the trend by actively reclaiming those aspects of the Superman mythos that have been lost, forgotten, or otherwise inverted. He is, first and foremost, someone with a profound faith in the goodness of others. This is especially notable when one remembers that his life is defined by moments that should have shattered this faith: his parents’ political imprisonment, his capture and detainment on Earth. In fact, almost all he has known in his life has been proof that people are selfish, cruel, and corrupt, but the world view he carries is the one he gained from his adopted parents – one of hope – and despite the overwhelmingly negative average of his life experience, his hope has not been dashed. He still believes in peaceful resolution over violence, and good over bad.

I hadn't thought of the character Val-Zod in this way, but I think I agree. I do think DC is starting to get over their obsession with "bad Superman" and deconstructing the mythos, or at least, I really hope so. It's a concept that's been done to death and has missed far more than it's hit near as I can tell.
 
Not at all related to the movie, but I found it interesting and wanted to share (it does cite MoS as an example).

The True Last Son of the House of El – How Val-Zod is Ending the Age of the Deconstruction of Superman



I hadn't thought of the character Val-Zod in this way, but I think I agree. I do think DC is starting to get over their obsession with "bad Superman" and deconstructing the mythos, or at least, I really hope so. It's a concept that's been done to death and has missed far more than it's hit near as I can tell.
Doubt it's what the filmmakers intended, but alot of good points
 

IconGrist

Member
I loved Man of Steel but my absolute biggest gripe with Snyder's portrayal of Superman stems from something he said prior to the movie being released.

(para-phrase)
"I will not apologize for Superman."

In the context of the quote it really sounded like he meant he was going give us a Superman we, as an audience, could look at by the end of the movie and say, "THAT was SUPERMAN!" A Superman that embodied hope, integrity, honor and above all else, an uncompromising sense of right.

The trailers even made it look like that's what we were being given.

Instead, we got Batman Begins starring Superman.
 

DaveH

Member
Not at all related to the movie, but I found it interesting and wanted to share (it does cite MoS as an example).
Interesting essay, thank you for sharing. I think he does an OK job at citing symptoms but I disagree with the premise / conclusion. I don't believe deconstruction is inherently bad or that it must tear down. Another way to reword deconstruction is rendering. As comics moved from being disposable entertainment where its target audience was meant to grow out of the medium and into modern myth, the audience naturally craved more sophistication, depth, and reality to their 4-color heroes... that increase in rendering (of detail, of back story, of psychology, of rationality, etc) could challenge or deconstruct some elemental tenants of a character, but it could also be the basis of fantastic characterization not accessible to the original 4-color two-dimensional characters they used to be.

I think the real problem with comic book writers attempting to render Superman is that they haven't taken the time to study good people or aren't good people approaching the degree that Superman is.

It is easy to write the more sophisticated, flawed, and broken Batman, since we've all felt petty vengeance. It is easy to give nuance to rage fantasies we've all felt in Wolverine or Hulk. These are utterly common, base, and human experiences felt by the writers and readers alike.

It is much more difficult to translate extraordinary goodness to people consuming comic book entertainment typically filled with violence, sex, etc... written by people who've consumed the same and live the same. As such, Superman's goodness is often a parody of the real thing or it is assaulted and deconstructed by writers and readers who can't quite understand it. They end up clinging to the same rage and power fantasies they're familiar with and Superman becomes about losing control, showing people up, lording power over others, etc.

This is a trite analogy, but it is a little like asking a vehement atheist to write about charity, kindness, security, comfort, and strength religion brings to a believer with the goal of persuading a hostile atheist audience. It's hard for them to not inject snark, critique, etc. into it and hard for the audience to receive it without extracting the same.

Superman's faith in humanity, paternalism, compassion, etc. don't have the same visceral connection or pay off that punching someone in vengeance has. That said, across all Superman media, it's been captured, here and there. People are moved by his relationship with his father(s), his compassion for those who've given up hope, being an ever-present rescuer, standing by his convictions, his love life, etc. But these moments are the exception rather than the rule.

I think the essay is a step in the right direction by calling out negative deconstruction, but I don't think that means deconstruction needs to stop... rather, it needs to be deeper and more realistic rendering of what it means to be a good and responsible person. Acting selflessly, heroically, and good while having so much power really is an alien thing to us... but no so alien that the writers can't do some research and start to translate it in a compelling fashion to us.

Anyways, I think the essay sort of shoehorns MoS in by citing doubt and hesitation. To me, that shade of rendering on Clark's faith and hope is what makes it compelling... that his faith to do good and his hope that humanity would deserve it was hard fought over skepticism and cynicism, as it would be in the real world, rather than something just intrinsically inside of him effortlessly imparted to him in a cave... he had to wrestle and was victorious... I like that rendering and message better than easy reflexive morality.
 

Odoul

Member
I've been thinking about what kind of credible threat this movie could have that

-needs Supes strength

-requires Batman/Bruce Wayne's resources

-would get Luthor out of bed to be bothered.

Brainiac has to be involved in this movie somehow doesn't he?
 

Magwik

Banned
I've been thinking about what kind of credible threat this movie could have that

-needs Supes strength

-requires Batman/Bruce Wayne's resources

-would get Luthor out of bed to be bothered.

Brainiac has to be involved in this movie somehow doesn't he?

Why does Brainiac have to be involved?
 
do you think we will get a shot equal to this in Justice League :p

GorgeousHighLcont.gif

I found it to be corny to be honest and not "cool and inspirational" as they may have intended it to be. Before i get ridiculed some more after my comments over the weekend, i will actually say that i re-watched the film again on sunday night..... it's still ok... but that's all it was to me was just ok (comparing super hero films of that year Dark Knight Rises was a much better film to me, didn't enjoy The Avengers as much).

My main gripes with the cgi in The Avengers came in the last act of the film (as my last few posts in this thread indicated i'm not a fan of heavy cgi use in films). Particularly the sequences that showed them finally working together as a team. It's a small and idiotic nitpick on my part but argh it just irritated me.

I'm not a complete cgi hater as i said if it aides in the story and it's barely noticeable such as in Nolan's Batman films as one example then it's all good. I can take myself out of other movies (i noticed how people say that the cgi used in the early X-Men films looks dated.... to me it still looks fine :-/).
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Val-Zod essay

DC is relying on grimdark Superman far too much to lecture us about resetting the character through Val-Zod.

Earth-2 Superman crispa Pa Kent. The drama is manufactured because the story shows him under Darkseid's thrall but the characters address him as if he made the turn consciously. Maybe they'll clarify who Brutaal is sometime soon, but they can't pretend that they're fixing anything with Val-Zod.

Earth-1 Superman is running around as a Were-Doomsday. The story is interesting in itself, but not against several other "Dark Supermans".

I'll give Val-Zod a chance but it seems to me that DC has run out of good Superman ideas.
 
DC is relying on grimdark Superman far too much to lecture us about resetting the character through Val-Zod.

Earth-2 Superman crispa Pa Kent. The drama is manufactured because the story shows him under Darkseid's thrall but the characters address him as if he made the turn consciously. Maybe they'll clarify who Brutaal is sometime soon, but they can't pretend that they're fixing anything with Val-Zod.

Earth-1 Superman is running around as a Were-Doomsday. The story is interesting in itself, but not against several other "Dark Supermans".

I'll give Val-Zod a chance but it seems to me that DC has run out of good Superman ideas.

...Geoff Johns new issues have been pretty upbeat
 

y2dvd

Member
That looks like such a TV show, I bet it's not even in 60 FPS.

This "TV show" moment was one of the coolest scenes in the movie even after being seen in trailers. I haven't kept up with anyone's post to tell if you're trolling or not.
 

ReiGun

Member
Interesting essay, thank you for sharing. I think he does an OK job at citing symptoms but I disagree with the premise / conclusion. I don't believe deconstruction is inherently bad or that it must tear down. Another way to reword deconstruction is rendering. As comics moved from being disposable entertainment where its target audience was meant to grow out of the medium and into modern myth, the audience naturally craved more sophistication, depth, and reality to their 4-color heroes... that increase in rendering (of detail, of back story, of psychology, of rationality, etc) could challenge or deconstruct some elemental tenants of a character, but it could also be the basis of fantastic characterization not accessible to the original 4-color two-dimensional characters they used to be.

I think the real problem with comic book writers attempting to render Superman is that they haven't taken the time to study good people or aren't good people approaching the degree that Superman is.

It is easy to write the more sophisticated, flawed, and broken Batman, since we've all felt petty vengeance. It is easy to give nuance to rage fantasies we've all felt in Wolverine or Hulk. These are utterly common, base, and human experiences felt by the writers and readers alike.

It is much more difficult to translate extraordinary goodness to people consuming comic book entertainment typically filled with violence, sex, etc... written by people who've consumed the same and live the same. As such, Superman's goodness is often a parody of the real thing or it is assaulted and deconstructed by writers and readers who can't quite understand it. They end up clinging to the same rage and power fantasies they're familiar with and Superman becomes about losing control, showing people up, lording power over others, etc.

This is a trite analogy, but it is a little like asking a vehement atheist to write about charity, kindness, security, comfort, and strength religion brings to a believer with the goal of persuading a hostile atheist audience. It's hard for them to not inject snark, critique, etc. into it and hard for the audience to receive it without extracting the same.


Superman's faith in humanity, paternalism, compassion, etc. don't have the same visceral connection or pay off that punching someone in vengeance has. That said, across all Superman media, it's been captured, here and there. People are moved by his relationship with his father(s), his compassion for those who've given up hope, being an ever-present rescuer, standing by his convictions, his love life, etc. But these moments are the exception rather than the rule.

I think the essay is a step in the right direction by calling out negative deconstruction, but I don't think that means deconstruction needs to stop... rather, it needs to be deeper and more realistic rendering of what it means to be a good and responsible person. Acting selflessly, heroically, and good while having so much power really is an alien thing to us... but no so alien that the writers can't do some research and start to translate it in a compelling fashion to us.

Anyways, I think the essay sort of shoehorns MoS in by citing doubt and hesitation. To me, that shade of rendering on Clark's faith and hope is what makes it compelling... that his faith to do good and his hope that humanity would deserve it was hard fought over skepticism and cynicism, as it would be in the real world, rather than something just intrinsically inside of him effortlessly imparted to him in a cave... he had to wrestle and was victorious... I like that rendering and message better than easy reflexive morality.

The bolded made me think about the Superman writers I enjoy, namely Mark Waid, Geoff Johns, and Grant Morrison, and how if you listen to them speak about their lives or comics or whatever, they come across as people who absolutely buy into what Superman is selling and that shows up in their work. Even when they render the character, as you say, it never comes across as cynical and usually has a larger point to make about the character and his archetype or even comics in general.

Even Tom Taylor, current writer and Earth 2 and creator of Val-Zod, professes to love Superman and Val could be read as his attempt to inject a more classic Superman in a book that forces him to write Clark Kent as an insane evil jerk.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with deconstruction in a general sense. But I think the issue is with DC's motivations. So many of the deconstructions of Superman come across as an attempt to make him "cool" to the kind of people you describe. Those who can't really understand the kind of goodness and optimism Superman is supposed to be about. It's this sort of cold grab at an audience that likely will never be on board in the first place that makes so many attempts fall flat for me.
 

- J - D -

Member
Not at all related to the movie, but I found it interesting and wanted to share (it does cite MoS as an example).

The True Last Son of the House of El – How Val-Zod is Ending the Age of the Deconstruction of Superman

That is not to say that Val-Zod does not see the bad around him. Nor does it mean that the past twenty years of Superman mythos have denied that the character is a symbol of hope. All-Star Superman is a particularly classic interpretation of the character, but again, its focus is on Superman’s ultimate sacrifice. If the only means through which the mythology can show Superman as that symbol is by removing all or part of him, then we only experience the absence of hope, rather than its presence. This is an inherently negative act and therefore completely antithetical to Superman. Val-Zod, by contrast, is defined by his hope and empowered by it. The yellow sun may be the physical mechanism through which he is able to perform heroic deeds, but his morality, his philosophy, and his inherent goodness are what make him a hero.

I don't agree with the premise that sacrifice, particularly in the case of All Star Superman, is inherently a negative act nor is it antithetical to the idea of Superman, especially if the symbol of Superman is that of hope. Isn't the essential and intrinsic aspect of a symbol that (to borrow an idea from Batman) it is everlasting? That it can instill its imbued philosophies within us long after the physical manifestation is gone? It could be negative if what follows in the absence of Superman is a perversion of that symbol, a la what happened in the wake of Superman's death after he fought against Doomsday, but All Star Superman opts for an entirely different path and outlook by showing a Superman who is unfailing in his hopefulness even in the twilight of his life. And furthermore, the strength of his spirit is so strong that it converts even his greatest enemy (Luthor)?

I take issue with that premise, but the rest of the article is interesting and makes me want to start reading the Val-Zod stuff, though I find it odd that the article presents Val-Zod as the end of the era of Superman's deconstruction, but in this particular series, there's also a...deconstruction of Superman via the bad, fascist version of the character that Val-Zod goes up against? I haven't read it yet but just going off the article, the story presenting a counterpoint to the all-good paragon Superman (Val-Zod, as it sounds) sounds like have-your-cake-eat-it-too situation.

Thanks for the link, Reigun! Thoughtful reading.
 

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
What'd they do to you?
Maybe he mispelled "sight" and just really hates when fruit spoils.

Rotten Tomatoes is better than Metacritic, I think. However it requires people to understand that a 65 on its scale doesn't mean it's a bad film - just one incredible divisive among critics.
 
New rumor:

According to Badass Digest, the Batman in Batman v Superman has been at work for almost thirty years, so Wayne is in his 50s in the movie. He’s more of an “urban legend”, and no one has ever taken a picture of him. This Batman has a lot of experience, and also some tragedy as the Batcave even has a memorial featuring a tattered Robin costume. It also looks like Wonder Woman has been operating the same way: low-profile and for quite some time.
 
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