I don't think comparing your performance in your first playthrough of both games is really a good indicator of the difficulty. You're already acquainted with Bayo's gameplay and mechanics, so it's not like you're starting out as a new player like you and everybody else was in the first game.
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Bayonetta 2 |OT| The time has come, and so have Wii!
- Thread starter Nemesis_
- Start date
I don't think comparing your performance in your first playthrough of both games is really a good indicator of the difficulty. You're already acquainted with Bayo's gameplay and mechanics, so it's not like you're starting out as a new player like you and everybody else was in the first game.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Wonderful 101 was new, or at least took some old elements and combined them in a fresh, novel experience.
The biggest problem Bayonetta 2 has is that Bayonetta 1 was so well-realized, so packed full of content and ideas already, that Bayo2 could only hope to just be more of the same. So you got your 16 chapters, including the prologue and the epilogue and fighting during the credits. There's the big boss chapters, your gimmick sections
with a plane and a motorcyle kind of thing
Back in 2009/2010, this was all new, exciting, interesting, how it married DMC/GoW/NGB kind of elements with other influences like Streets of Rage 3 weapon pick-ups with meters on their usage, and its own unique style of lolipops and S&M and jazzy battle themes. But now, in 2014, when they just cart out all the same tricks wholesale, tick all the boxes exactly as you expect, and it all works great, one of the best games of the year no doubt, but well...its just a bit oldhat now, ya know? It did exactly every thing you thought it was gonna do, exactly the way you thought it was gonna do it. More of the same.
Wonderful 101 has some of the above elements, but its wrapped up in such a completely different experience, from the core combat/meter management mechanics, to the musical score, the visual style, the storytelling methods, etc that it felt new and interesting in a way Bayonetta 2 does not. Even Metal Gear Rising, a considerably more flawed experience than Bayo2 in my estimation, was a damn sight more exciting. There was no learning of a whole new world of mechanics for me in Bayonetta 2, no Senator Armstrong or RULES OF NATURE kind of discovery. No hilarious "YOU CAN'T BEAT NATURE JACK" quotes to discover, or funny little easter eggs like the backflipping cat(which is in this game, but Rising did it first so meh). It was interesting in a way I can't call Bayonetta 2 interesting.
Monocle
Member
This is a good point. I got all golds and platinums on my first playthrough (2nd Climax difficulty). Not because I'm some badass gamer but because I've been playing Bayonetta 1 for literally four years and the combat system is second nature to me. Familiarity and lots of practice make a big difference.
dragonlife
Member
Good set, Seik, unfortunately I have to stop for the time being, but I'll be back later if you still want to play 
And that difference at the end made me laugh
And that difference at the end made me laugh
chertipros
Member
Finally found a copy of this game. Now I'm fully ready to get my ass kicked
Good set, Seik, unfortunately I have to stop for the time being, but I'll be back later if you still want to play
And that difference at the end made me laugh
Sure thing, always having a blast playing with ya!
I'd say yes, play through the first one first.
bobbychalkers
Member
Just beat it, ended with a big smile on my face.
Aside from 2 Platinum chapters, I ended up with consistent Gold rankings in every level. Not too shabby considering I played Bayonetta 1 on easy mode with plenty of Stones years ago.
The ending wasn't Wonderful 101 levels of epic but it was damn good. That last boss fight was hype as fuck though. Just a ballet of Witch Time and particle effects every moment. I was cheesing too, when I dropped Aesir's ass into the satellite I was all like "yeah motherfucker Sieg Zeon!" haha.
CompC
Member
It was easier, because you got gud playing the first one
Yeah, but I seem to have instantly gotten better. I died a lot, and consistently made stone awards on every single chapter in the first game. Now, I got only one stone, lots of golds and silvers, and lots of Pure Platinums on individual verses. And I only played them like one day apart from each other.
I guess I got better, but it just felt easier. I struggled with the final boss of the first game and died a lot, but this time I had no problem. I definitely want to play both games again on hard and see how I do.
entremet
Member
If you've never played the first, you might as well play that one first. It's amazing.
The right question would be: Who doesn't?
Boy I was so excited, that day. It's good to finally taste the final product after all this wait.
Monocle
Member
Bayonetta 2 is an iterative sequel because Platinum would have been fucking insane to introduce change for the sake of change. That's not a flaw any way you look at it. If you're going to play a sequel to a nearly perfect game, you'd best hope the developers have enough self-awareness to recognize why the original worked, what tweaks could be made without throwing the whole thing off balance, and what expectations can be subverted or harnessed to improve the player's experience.
Platinum's people have that self-awareness. Bayonetta 2 is the ideal sequel to the first game.
thanks
Porcile
Member
That's a tough assessment, but I do mostly agree (though I think the game is mostly fantastic). I'm sure if Kamiya was directing he would of taken the gameplay somewhere slightly different as he's obviously not the type to rest on his laurels. Either way, I think it bodes well for Platinum that someone else within the studio can take the helm and deliver an outstanding game of equal, if not better, quality to it's predecessor. Hopefully Hashimoto can put some of his own ideas into a new game as he's certainly earned his stripes with Bayonetta 2.
Astral Dog
Member
I wonder, how big is that problem? how much could Platinum had changed the game to feel more innovative and fresh? in part it was not going to feel as fresh because its a sequel, more of the same,as much as i liked W101, Vanquish and MG Rising, i wanted Bayonetta 2 too. just releasing a game of similar quality and content is a great feat.
Now, since Bayonetta with Vanquish, MG Rising, Wonderful 101, Anarchy Reigns Korra and the upcoming Scalebound, i think PG has earned the right to release a "safe " sequel, to me Bayonetta is their flagship title and franquise.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
And even with all that, it also found room to include Bayonetta.
So she wins no matter what she's in.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
You mean other than the ways he described in extraordinary detail in his post?
Monocle
Member
You can replay everything from the same save file. All of your unlockables will stay unlocked.
There is always a way, I mean Bayo was
killing stuff at hell, so who ever it the king of hell can bring up a fight because she "broke" the rule of hell, or there are many gods/goddesses form different mythologies
Monocle
Member
You can replay everything from the same save file. All of your unlockables will stay unlocked.
I disagree with the critique. Bayonetta 2 brought back what worked and changed what didn't. The many similarities to the first game are appropriate and well executed. Platinum took tried and true action game material and made it work, again. They took the essence of Bayonetta and made it better.
You can replay chapters in other difficulties I think.
entremet
Member
I was thinking of moving my stuff to an Infinite Climax play through, but you can't right?
OverturePT
Member
dragonlife
Member
Hey, everyone, I took the liberty of creating a Tag Climax Steam group for people like me who are heavy Steam users and would like a way to communicate with fellow players during card-picking or to set up games in general. If it gets big enough, it'd be cool if it were added to the OP.
GAF - Bayonetta 2 Tag Climaxing Steam Group
I've linked to this thread and the group is public to make things quicker. Hopefully there's others in this thread that this could be useful for.
GAF - Bayonetta 2 Tag Climaxing Steam Group
I've linked to this thread and the group is public to make things quicker. Hopefully there's others in this thread that this could be useful for.
Monocle
Member
You can change the difficulty from the chapter select menu. Bayonetta 2 was designed to be replayed many times. No need to start a new file to play with different characters or settings.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I do as well! Its an excellent game! I've beaten it twice, I'm working on the hardest difficulty setting, got up to verse 5 on the angel trials, played damn near every verse at least once on the tag climax, including the random ones. Its great! I'm happy to live in a world where Bayonetta 2, the sequel to one of my top 10 games of all-time, exists, and it turned out so well. Hooray!
Its just in great in so many of the exact same ways the last one was five years ago that it just isn't very exciting anymore. Half a decade ago, Bayonetta was full of surprises, nuances to learn, fun new ideas, hip and sassy and confident in blowing the doors off the action genre. Now, eh, lets just do the exact same thing again. Look the same, sound the same, control the same, play the same. Yep.
Of course, that "exact same thing" is one of the greatest video games ever made so that's not really a HUGE problem, it just falls into the Mega Man 3 trap. When you make a sequel to a game so many people love, that was so refined and exciting and novel at the time, what do you do? Well, you just do more of the same, but with a new mechanic. Charge Shot/Umbran Climax. Not exactly something that was missing from the last game, but its different. Its something you can put on the back of the box as you hit all the other notes on the checklist.
Its not a "flaw", but its overriding familiarity and lack of new ideas does dull the experience down just a bit.
entremet
Member
Monocle
Member
In other words, Bayonetta 2 is a sequel.
Yeah, it's really convenient.
Sequels can mix it up and expand on existing systems A LOT. Think Half-life to half life 2. Think about the MGS series. Heck, the DMC1-4 and NG 1-2 along change a lot from iteration to iteration. When MGR2 comes out, it's going to outshine the first game to a ridiculous degree, provided platinum's working on it.
But Bayo 1's perfection means there is little to no progression in the way things work in Bayo 2.
And let me clarify, I don't think anyone here is saying that this is bad thing, necessarily. Bayonetta is the type of game that is suppose to bring satisfaction, long term. Bayo 2 is going to be a top contender for game of the year, no doubt. I'm perfectly happy getting an expansion pack sequel to nothing at all. But we have to face it just that it doesn't have the element of novelty.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
But not in the way say, Street Fighter 2 was a sequel. Or Half-Life 2. Or Diablo 2, Super Mario Bros 3, Fallout 2/3, Resident Evil 2, the various Halos(and we can debate those changes from CE being good or bad til we're blue in the face), Sonic 3, Castlevania(even the copy-paste Metroidvanias arent this similar in form and mechanics and structure), Mass Effect 2, Assassin's Creed 2, GTA3, the various Metal Gear Solid titles, and down the list of sequels that change in big major ways from their predecessors.
Its more like Doom 2. Looks, sounds, plays exactly the same, right down to the subtle things like the UI text elements and stage select music, but there's new levels, monsters, and one big new thing, this case the Super-Shotgun. I think we call those expansion packs nowadays, so they don't confuse them for something that might show up with a bunch of new ideas like the above.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say Monocle, but your premise here seems to be "sequels exist". And, I mean, yeah --- they do. But it seems like you're arguing that criticizing games based on the time and larger context they're released within is completely invalid. Am I misinterpreting what you're saying?
Monocle
Member
Yeah, I felt the same way. I've come to really love these characters. They've become more than collections of traits in stylish packages; they have personalities and actual motivations and believable relationships. Not bad at all for the cast of an action game series.
I think loss of novelty is inherent to sequels, and it's a fool's errand to chase the freshness of the original. I've long since accepted that the best sequels usually stick close to their roots.
I mean... see above. I think it's extremely rare for a sequel to successfully marry the best aspects of the original with true innovation.
Lady Siara
Member
Wow, I just tried out
and she will die to almost anything. There were times where it looked like the enemy wasn't even attacking and I was falling over dead. She has a pretty interesting moveset but I don't feel it's worth the risk of dying in one hit to some attacks.
Some day
will be mine.
Rosa
Some day
Rodin
Monocle
Member
The skull marks inferior times or scores compared to your old record.Quick question,
When I'm redoing old chapters, when it asks me to overwrite my older score I see the new one with my new time, but there's always a skull & crossbones, as if I died once, but I didn't.
So, what's up with that?
Eh....it depends. A lot of the best sequels expand and build on the source material, rather than merely sticking close to it. But that's the thing with Bayonetta, there was just not much to build on because it was already a monument.
Lack of novelty in Bayonetta's case means lack of new mechanics. We have the umbran climax and not much else. Everything is just new weapons, enemies, and environments, but not a new meaningful way to interact with them.
As I said, I'm very happy that we got bayo 2 and I'll gladly take an expansion pack over nothing at all. I'm just saying that's the inherent flaw in making an expansion pack kind of game.
Porcile
Member
Closest equivalent I can think of is Super Mario Galaxy 2. Fabulous game on it's own merits (if not better than it's predecessor in almost every way) but people will always be drawn to the originality of Galaxy 1. I'll probably always see these two games as a single entity, both complimenting each other, rather than distinct things like I would the Metal Gear Solid games.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Chapter 3 with a stone medal. WTF am I doing wrong?
Astral Dog
Member
You know, i agree with your points, this familiarity can be both a strenght and a weakness, but i will say that Bayonetta already feels different in combat, presentation, design to most games, even other Platinum games,i enjoy the combat system more than their other games,Platinum never intented or said that this was going to be a groundbreaking game that was going to move the genre forward, this was never going to be that game, i was dissapointed when the DmC reboot changed a lot of things for the sake of changing them, even if the combat was decent, this is a well made sequel, nothing more or less.
To me Bayonetta 2 doesnt feel "dated" as an action game, and neither the first game after replaying it, after Platinum (and other companies) experimented a lot, im very glad Bayonetta 2 feels familiar, this is the game we need right now
And like i said, there are many other games that Platinum released, and are going to release for that fresh feeling.
dragonlife
Member
All right, I'm back if you want to play some more.Quick question,
When I'm redoing old chapters, when it asks me to overwrite my older score I see the new one with my new time, but there's always a skull & crossbones, as if I died once, but I didn't.
So, what's up with that?
Monocle
Member
I agree, I just don't see lack of novelty as a flaw. It's a limitation. It's neutral. If the source material is good, like Bayonetta 1, then more of the same is good.
I have to concede this is matter of personal preference. Simply put, I'm happy when I get more of what I love. But now I'm second guessing myself, because I've realized so much of Bayonetta 2 feels fresh to me. The new enemies and locations, the new scenes with Bayonetta, the new weapons... I'm more than satisfied.
First I want to acknowledge that I rate Bayonetta 2 a 5 out of 5. All the complaints I have are mostly nitpicks to an extremely polished game.
That said, you're right, even after 4 years, Bayonetta 2 felt more like an expansion pack than a true sequel to me. Other than a beautiful graphical update, it doesn't improve that much on the original game or introduce new concepts.
In fact they mostly just removed what was average in the first game, the QTEs, the mini-game at the end of the levels, the bike and Space Harrier levels, the reuse of level architecture and bosses. They didn't touch how the game works and unfolds at all. It's the same presentation between levels, same sound effects, barrier breaking animations and so on. Other than a new useless transformation, you don't unlock totally new abilities progressively like the panther form in the first game.
They could have been a bit more ambitious and change the game structure for instance. Why not have a main hub allowing to access the other levels just so the world feels more connected and coherent? They could have designed levels like in Mario Galaxy where every time you re-enter a level you access a new area with new enemies, objectives and bosses. The different chapters can feel a bit disjointed.
Here's are the main "flaws" I found in Bayonetta 2 :
- They still didn't get rid of the static cutscenes.
- The campaign is on the short side (I finished the story in 9h30, 12-14h would have been ideal)
- After playing Bayonetta 1, even 3rd climax is relatively easy outside of boss fights.
- Chapter 11, 12, 14 and 16 are very short.
- Hell and its enemies are underused.
- No new game changing abilities (Umbran Climax is fun to use but doesn't change how you approach encounters)
- Gravity defying levels are underused.
- The story is still confusing.
- The game structure is exactly the same.
- Levels are a bit disjointed, some lack a sense of place.
I feel Platinum reached a bit of its limit game design wise. They are the best in designing a polished combat system and amazing encounters, but they need to step up the non-combat areas of their games. Bayonetta, Vanquish, MGR:R, W101, Bayonetta 2 and Korra all share the exact same template and game structure.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but a limitation is usually seen as a flaw, or atleast an obstacle. Something negative.
But honestly, the fact of the matter is, despite the fact that most of my post was spent bitching about one thing or another, Bayonetta 2 is an amazing game. We can waste time quibbling if the fact that it's retreading ground means it's slightly less amazing than Bayo 1 was, but even if you acknowledge it as a flaw, we still fall back on the same opinion: Bayo 2 kicks ass.
That's enough to make it worth any action fan's time.
Monocle
Member
Agreed!