Check the last pages of this thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909893
Edit: but please don't continue the discussion here, there was a good reason for that thread to be closed.
Geeze.
Check the last pages of this thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909893
Edit: but please don't continue the discussion here, there was a good reason for that thread to be closed.
People just lose contROLL sometimes.
Nothing more broad minded than saying ALL OR NOTHING
I'm saying the critique from women here matters more than the critique from men. Because it obviously does.
So where the "men also deal with this" thing breaks down for me is this: even if we don't relate to a certain character, we have hundred more to choose from. Women really don't have that luxury which is why it's so important that we listen to what they have to say about characters like Bayonetta.Thank you for taking the time to write this post. I mostly agree with you, but there is one thing in particular that I would like to address.
Your post kind of puts men and women into two separate chambers when we're all actually living in the same society. So, stating that men aren't affected in the same way might be true, but we are obviously also HEAVILY affected by sexism in game, even if it is in a somewhat different way. This is exactly why I love Anitas video series as well, but I digress. Men also constantly have to put up with bimbo characters with completely unrealistic proportions and Miranda butt-shots, and I don't think it is wise to ignore that fact considering this is still a male dominated industry where unfortunately men have to do their part in opening it up toward both female workers and a female consumer base.
Like, I get what you're saying - men in games have plenty of power fantasies they can relate to, but honestly I can't relate to Nathan Drake at all. That guy isn't my guy, I don't want to be him at all. I'd fucking rather be Bayonetta to be honest, and that fact matters quite a bit in this discussion especially because I'm NOT female. This character actually makes me stand in awe of women, while male characters almost never impress me in video games.
Aside from that, I will concede that I am probably slightly more interested in what women have to say about this simply by virtue of them being fewer in number and perhaps providing a different viewpoint, but honestly - the articles I've read that were written by women about this series haven't been very different at all from articles written by men, signalling to me that this is a pretty universal issue that both genders can relate to equally, even if both are affected in different ways.
50-post-per-page peasantWow this thread has exploded to 22 pages already!!
I mention it in mine, but it's in PortgueseHave any of the reviews touched on the amount of unlockable content? There was a shit ton in Bayo 1 and I'm expecting the same or more for Bayo 2..
Mushroomer25 said:Polygon seems like they want to be a premiere outlet for criticism, by sacrificing a game's score to make a point about a larger issue. If Bayonetta 2 was released in a hypothetically perfect world, they'd likely give it a 9 or 10. But since representation is still an issue, and they feel this game is an offender - it must be the sacrificial lamb for greater progress.
It's a theory that may be appealing to some types, but doesn't do much in the way of consumer advocacy.
Yes reviewers are entitled to their opinion, but his is a big part of why I think Gies' comments are misplaced. And in not understanding this I think Gies does Polygon readers a disservice.Sbraik79 said:"People do know that female sexual confidence is an extremely good thing for feminism, dont they?"
Insomuch as a.)they are the group who's sexuality in general is far too often loaded with cultural baggage and b.)women's voices are often severely underrepresented in situations like this, yes, a woman's perspective is more valuable to the conversation than yet another men's perspevtiveIt does?
Except setting it up for PC is a complete nightmare that I've never managed to solve. Gah.
I'm not saying it's going to win GotY in places, but in pure action categories, I suspect it will.I think it will be snubbed for the big GOTY prize at most outlets (look at Super Mario Galaxy 2 which had a 97 on Metacritic), but it will at least get a lot of nominations.
Mayflash USB adapter. Done.
Also, why hasn't anyone compiled all these scores onto an image yet? Or did I miss that?
So where the "men also deal with this" thing breaks down for me is this: even if we don't relate to a certain character, we have hundred more to choose from. Women really don't have that luxury which is why it's so important that we listen to what they have to say about characters like Bayonetta.
I appreciate what you said about us all living together in society. The main goal of feminist ideology is equality for men and women. Unfortunately that goal is very far away and the whole situation with the gaming industry is a microcosm of the larger problem. Focusing so much on the MEN TOO mentality does more harm than good at the moment. It isn't anywhere near the same. As this whole GamerGate thing has unfolded it has shed a light on just how fucking bad it is for women in gaming right now. And that stretches everywhere from journalism to development. So when everyone shouts MEN TOO I think it's just taking that voice away from the people who actually need it.
Dude, do you even pelvis?
But I mean, was anyone really suggesting that? Not to pick on you specifically I swrar , but so often in these discussions I see comments about the value of underrepresented perspective or the idea of privlidge and ignorance conflated to a sweeping comment about the worthlessness of the male perspective or whateverOh, of course. That was never my intent. I was just trying to say "let's not completely discredit opinions just because they are coming from men", that's all. I think it's very unfortunate that there aren't more females posting their views on this issue on NeoGAF, and maybe there should be a harrassment-free place for them to discuss it, but of course, that's an entirely different can of worms especially since so many females would prefer to stay gender neutral online due to the ridiculous amounts of idiocy surrounding that.
boy, am I glad to be wrong about my predicted 85 score.
The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.
is that so? I'm glad to hear it.Edge 10 should have been your first clue
I don't think any game they awarded a 10 has a metacritic below 90.
I read 10/15 hours somewhere.How long is the first game? Really want to play this as fast as possible, but having not played the first one, I feel obliged to start out with that one.
But I mean, was anyone really suggesting that? Not to pick on you specifically I swrar , but so often in these discussions I see comments about the value of underrepresented perspective or the idea of privlidge and ignorance conflated to a sweeping comment about the worthlessness of the male perspective or whatever
I think it's very unfortunate that there aren't more females posting their views on this issue on NeoGAF, and maybe there should be a harrassment-free place for them to discuss it, but of course, that's an entirely different can of worms especially since so many females would prefer to stay gender neutral online due to the ridiculous amounts of idiocy surrounding that.
Just wanted to quote this excellent post. I absolutely think this is Gies' charted direction and modus operandi rather than coming from a place of puritanism, as some other posts attempt to pin on him.
And I'm not commenting about this because I'm one of those people that feel invested in a particular game receiving a high score. Sbraik79 quoted his wife which goes nicely here.
Yes reviewers are entitled to their opinion, but his is a big part of why I think Gies' comments are misplaced. And in not understanding this I think Gies does Polygon readers a disservice.
Insomuch as a.)they are the group who's sexuality in general is far too often loaded with cultural baggage and b.)women's voices are often severely underrepresented in situations like this, yes, a woman's perspective is more valuable to the conversation than yet another men's perspevtive
GAF loves to hate polygon but they are 100% right about the hyper sexualization of women in this game, it's laughable in most cases in this game actually
Yeah I also agree that there does seem to be a bit of a disconnect between the character and the way the scenes/camera portrays her in some cases. I think Bayonetta is a very good female character, she's strong, sexy and boy is she confident. That's great, I'd love to see more female characters like that. What isn't so great is when you then have scenes with bullets stripping her of all her clothes and then suggestive camera angles to go along with it happening. Not to mention the camera angles when fights are going on anyway.Not surprised at Polygons review, even if I think I'm going to disagree with them. Part of the problem is, from what I've seen, Bayonetta games do suffer from an inconsistency. Character animation, voice acting, and character design are all communicating a hyper-sexualized character who is entirely in control of their own sexuality. However the camera movements do then undo some of that by reverting back to almost voyeuristic male gaze swooping and zooming. I've tried to figure out how to reconcile that with the more positive sexuality on display in every other aspect of the character and I don't think I really can, it really does seem like one aspect that's not on the same page as the rest. However the Polygon review is frustrating because I feel like it misses that point, while I'd like to think Gies has his heart in the right place, I think he is too quick to jump on "sexy = bad" at the moment.
What's fascinating about Bayonetta is that she works as a character because she's so much more then "a sexy female who kicks ass". Out pop-culture, geek pop-culture specifically, is littered with that archetype and its still done for the favor of a largely male audience. She even (moreso in the first game then what I've seen of the second) has a dominatrix like affect going on, and that is (often) the literal definition of submissive indulgence from a position of apparent dominance. But the way she carries herself and the way that she acts and reacts communicates a character who is in complete ownership of their actions and their appearance, something that is very often missing when it comes to "sexy kick-ass heroines"