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BAYONETTA An Action Game by Hideki Kamiya |OT|

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Dahbomb

Member
Monocle said:
I think you'll find that if you compare Bayonetta to any of the Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden games, its combat system really is something to write home about. Here's a truncated list of essential features:

- Real-time weapon switching between two sets of weapons. With 12 weapons available, many of which can be equipped to hands or feet, there is a vast array of unique combinations. Laser guns in your hands, rocket launchers on your feet? Go for it. Lightsaber in your hands, pistols on your feet? Why not? Rocket launcher tonfas in your hands, energy claws on your feet? Okay. Shotguns on all four limbs? By all means. And so on.

- Nearly every attack is chargeable. This is one of Bayonetta's most significant innovations. Charged attacks have several important functions, which include increasing hit range, dealing extra damage and delaying the next attack in the string until enemies enter its area of effect. Charging produces a wide variety of effects. Magical mines, laser beams that suspend opponents in the air, and a wide slash that can hit all close- to mid-range objects within your field of view are just a few examples. Many charged aerial attacks let Bayonetta float, so she can stay right in an airborne opponent's face or avoid attacks from enemies on the ground.

- Almost every animation can be canceled by a) dodging, b) jumping and c) standard gunfire. If this doesn't seem significant to you, think about how other action games handle the windup, delivery and recovery of attacks. Most of them lock you into the first two stages once you've pressed a button, so you have to wait until the recovery frames to cancel the animation with a new action. Aside from a few minor exceptions, Bayonetta lets you interrupt every attack animation during all three stages with the useful actions listed above. For this reason, its controls are more responsive than those of any other game in the action genre.

- The powerful technique known as dodge offset lets you perform a partial string, interrupt it with up to four dodges, then resume it where you left off. And you can do this once for every attack in a string except the first (so if you have a six-hit string, that's five potential dodge offsets). The panther transformation and taunting also bear this offset effect, the former being especially useful because you can remain in panther form indefinitely. As if delaying attacks weren't useful enough, you can also use dodges or the panther to skip moves in strings. So if you want to do the powerful Wicked Weave finisher of PKP without the first two hits, you input P then immediately dodge, K then immediately dodge, P. This will produce two evasive flips that smoothly transition into a Wicked Weave.

- The Witch Time mechanic, unique to Bayonetta, enhances its combat's natural ebb and flow of offense and evasion. Bayonetta's opponents aren't just fodder; they can and will attack in groups and parry your attacks. With Witch Time, you can turn a bad situation to your advantage with a single well timed dodge. It's to Kamiya's credit that he found a way to let players build combos as complex as DMC3's against enemies that are anything but passive.

- Bayonetta's aerial combat is second to none because, barring a scant handful of strings and special attacks, the title character's full move set is available after she jumps. Couple that with the teleport maneuver you can buy in the shop, include Kulshedra's ability to bring an enemy to Bayonetta or Bayonetta to an enemy, toss in animal transformations for good measure, and you have a truly immense spread of attack options—well beyond what most, if any, other action games can offer.
Excellent post but its no real use trying to explain it to people who don't "get" the combat. Some people didn't "get" DMC's combat, they didn't "get" NG's combat and they will most likely not "get" Bayonetta's either.

In fact recognizing what makes Bayonetta so superb requires knowledge of previous action games, what worked and didn't work in those and how Bayonetta adds on it. Only then you can see the evolution in Bayonetta. People see regular QTEs, some dial a combos in the loading screen, a lock-on system plus a dodge button and immediately start making comparisons or calling it a "copy cat". Bayonetta manages to improve upon pretty much every facet of the action genre, as you have described in your post.

Some additions to your comments:

1) Bayonetta handling of weapons is truly unique and is a genuine evolution of what DMC3 brought to the table (2 guns equippable, 2 devil arms equippable all on the fly from a set of 10). What Bayonetta "evolves" from this is the whole Punch/Kick thing and that weapons are interchangeable between them. Plus you don't have 2 buttons to weapon switching (like DMC3 or DMC4) you have only one, which shows the genius of Kamiya as he is essentially giving you MORE with LESS. The amount of customization you can do with the weapon set up is absurd and practically surpasses that seen in DMC3.

2) Chargeable attacks give great variety to the combat and unique properties to weapons like described already. It also adds a layer of depth along with the pause combo strings and the Dodge Offset so that players who learn how to properly use this system are more efficient in battle as compared to those who just memorized a bunch of combo strings and use them repeatedly.

3) Bayonetta's canceling is godly, it is truly the next step in free form combat because of it's flexibility in its canceling system. It is more "cancelable" than DMC3 which was before it the most "cancelable" game yet. Although in DMC3 you could essentially cancel every attack with jump, shoot, another attack, weapon swap, enemy rebound, parry, trickster evasion the speed and fluidity at which Bayonetta does it is superior.

4) Dodge Offset is THE single greatest innovation that Bayonetta brings to the table. While something like DMC isn't reliant on combo string and thus wouldn't benefit from something like this (it may benefit, I certainly would like to see it), I can't imagine playing my next NG game without this. It is sometimes so frustrating in action games when you are about to get the last (usually the most powerful hit) in a combo string only to have an enemy attack and you either take the hit or dodge out of the way.... essentially reseting your combo string back to your first hit. Not anymore with Bayonetta, it is something that I have wanted to see in an action game for a long time. Your examples highlight this fact.

5) Witch Time is OK, I personally think it is more of crutch than anything else. Timing the dodges isn't that hard at all, especially for people who have experience with other action games. And when you initiate Witch Time the enemies become literal sand bags. It is the equivalent of Quicktime in DMC3 (or Slow down time in VJ) only in DMC3 it was limited to your DT gauge. Bayonetta doesn't need Witch Time to match DMC3's combos, even in real time it can match it combo to combo or even surpass it. Only thing that makes Witch Time unique is that you need to time a dodge to activate it. I guess you could say it's like a training wheel of some sort so that people can learn when it is best to avoid an attack.

6) Bayonetta re-defines over the top action and it's aerial combat is second to none. The options available when in the air is staggering and the ease by which one can perform such aerial combos is also impressive.
 

LiK

Member
Trojan X said:
My friend said that something is being planned for the US for sure. Currently, the guide will be promo in EU and Japan. I've heard even Platinum Games will do something with it. INSANE - Talk about a SEAL OF APPROVAL! This guide is legit in every detail.

I can't wait!
Looks like I'll be importing just incase the US one is different
 
iconoclast said:
Buy me a capture card and I'll happily record vids!

Didn't touch the Kilgore on Infinite Climax (Katana/Durga and Nunchucks/Bazillion was my loadout 97% of the time, along with Gaze of Despair and the Rosary 99% of the time).

Post a shot of your all score on climax so we can see your combo score isn't obscenely huge (aka kilgored). What's your name on x360 leaderboards? Keep in mind there are like 2 people on the x360 leaderboards with an all PP climax score that don't look like they've done much kilgore abuse. TitanicKeita and funamaru.. maybe red hot d boy and dancho323.. although they have a ton of 999999s all over the place.

I always thought the nunchucks were a fairly weak weapon.
 

ElyrionX

Member
Dahbomb said:
Some additions to your comments:

1) Bayonetta handling of weapons is truly unique and is a genuine evolution of what DMC3 brought to the table (2 guns equippable, 2 devil arms equippable all on the fly from a set of 10). What Bayonetta "evolves" from this is the whole Punch/Kick thing and that weapons are interchangeable between them. Plus you don't have 2 buttons to weapon switching (like DMC3 or DMC4) you have only one, which shows the genius of Kamiya as he is essentially giving you MORE with LESS. The amount of customization you can do with the weapon set up is absurd and practically surpasses that seen in DMC3.

Actually, I do believe that the whole weapon-switching system has been taken a notch down from DMC3/4. I mean, in those games the combo system basically encouraged you to switch up the weapons for flashier combos that gave you more combo points but in Bayonetta there's no such system. Additionally, given the fact that you rely so much on Wicked Weaves for damage, it doesn't make sense to switch to a different weapon mid-combo and mix things up. It makes more sense to finish your current string with a Wicked Weave and then switch and perform another combo.

I'm no action game expert and I'm not sure if what I'm saying is necessarily accurate. But all I know is that I mixed up my combos a lot less in Bayonetta than DMC3/4.

Also, it's really disappointing that apart from the sword, every other weapon has basically the same Wicked Weave attacks, even the whip. That's probably the main reason behind people's complaint that the weapons all feel similar.
 

regs

Member
Just picked this up yesterday off my friend for $40, he beat it and was going to trade it in.

Now I played DMC and was sorta into them so I had some sort of an idea what this was going to be like. But when I started playing it my mind fucking exploded. This game is AWESOME!

For about 3 hours, two of my friends had their jaws on the floor at just the over the top ridiculous shit I was doing :lol
 
This game is totally awesome, but definitely not as finely tuned as DMC or NG. The exploits and odd vehicle stages break the game's scoring system. I'm great at Bayonetta, but I suck at Space Harrier and the motorcycle game. The QTEs screw things up to a lesser extent. I've played the game a million times now, so I know where they are.


All in all, it's still my favorite game this gen, but it obviously didn't have the budget or fine-tuning of a DMC or NG game.
 
ElyrionX said:
Actually, I do believe that the whole weapon-switching system has been taken a notch down from DMC3/4. I mean, in those games the combo system basically encouraged you to switch up the weapons for flashier combos that gave you more combo points but in Bayonetta there's no such system. Additionally, given the fact that you rely so much on Wicked Weaves for damage, it doesn't make sense to switch to a different weapon mid-combo and mix things up. It makes more sense to finish your current string with a Wicked Weave and then switch and perform another combo.

I'm no action game expert and I'm not sure if what I'm saying is necessarily accurate. But all I know is that I mixed up my combos a lot less in Bayonetta than DMC3/4.

Also, it's really disappointing that apart from the sword, every other weapon has basically the same Wicked Weave attacks, even the whip. That's probably the main reason behind people's complaint that the weapons all feel similar.
The charge attacks are a big part of where the weapons start to feel more significantly different, but it's there in subtler ways in the actual combos.

My favorite thing about the combat is that it's managed to essentially merge NG's dial-a-combo, DMC's cancel/juggle mechanics, and a much more complex version of God of War's combo/finisher 'ladder' system, resulting in something that's better than each of these options. I love that the combos are a part of a pretty complex tree and you can adjust as you go from one planned 'branch' into another depending on the situation and depending on your needs. It reminds me of God of War's ability to use the Triangle button to combo into a finisher anytime after you've started attacking with the square button, but much, much, much more sophisticated and flexible while requiring a good deal more of the player.
 

LowParry

Member
Just hitting Chp. 7. It's alright for an action game. Not this "omg! next gen action!" nonsense. But all'n all, it's more enjoyable than DMC4, not as fun as NG2, but not epic like God of War. But then again, I love all four of these games (so far) so for any action game nut, this is truly a game to get.

And the fact that this game is so emphasis on that ass............yeah... :D
 
mjemirzian said:
Post a shot of your all score on climax so we can see your combo score isn't obscenely huge (aka kilgored). What's your name on x360 leaderboards? Keep in mind there are like 2 people on the x360 leaderboards with an all PP climax score that don't look like they've done much kilgore abuse. TitanicKeita and funamaru.. maybe red hot d boy and dancho323.. although they have a ton of 999999s all over the place.

I always thought the nunchucks were a fairly weak weapon.

30agmr7.jpg


Feel free to challenge any one of those scores. I just hope you know there's plenty of ways to score well without a combo exploit. You can get a 999999 score for a chapter in a single Angel Arm Alfheim, for example. For the giant boss stages, electric durgas are all you need (you actually score way lower with the Kilgore exploit on those stages, as far as I can tell). Then there's just the basics of keeping your combo going during long verses (you can link the graveyard and car area of the prologue if you're quick enough)...

edit: Also, about the nunchucks, they are good for comboing enraged enemies, since I have Gaze of Despair equipped the entire time. I don't use them often though, Katana/Durga is all you really need. Sometimes I'd switch them out with the Bazillion hands or whip, but that's about it.
 

Beezy

Member
Trojan X said:
My friend said that something is being planned for the US for sure. Currently, the guide will be promo in EU and Japan. I've heard even Platinum Games will do something with it. INSANE - Talk about a SEAL OF APPROVAL! This guide is legit in every detail.

I can't wait!
Please calm the fuck down.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I recently finished the PS3 version and trying out hard. Fantastic game though.

Personally, the game didn't perform or look THAT horrible on the PS3 (save the numerous loading times). The internet is making me think the Bayonetta PS3 version is equivalent to a rotting watermelon.
can't think of any other example :p
 

micster

Member
ULTROS! said:
Personally, the game didn't perform or look THAT horrible on the PS3 (save the numerous loading times). The internet is making me think the Bayonetta PS3 version is equivalent to a rotting watermelon.
can't think of any other example :p

Pretty much the same here. I mean the loading was a bitch, especially having to wait for the pause menu to load, but in regards to slow down I only experienced it really in, I think its, Chapter 14. When you're
walking up the walls and the panels keep moving / disappearing
. During that part the frame rate slowed down to something ridiculous like 15fps.
 

LiK

Member
micster said:
Pretty much the same here. I mean the loading was a bitch, especially having to wait for the pause menu to load, but in regards to slow down I only experienced it really in, I think its, Chapter 14. When you're
walking up the walls and the panels keep moving / disappearing
. During that part the frame rate slowed down to something ridiculous like 15fps.
Ouch, guess ill look forward to that when I start the PS3 version.
 

Trojan X

Banned
Beezy said:
Please calm the fuck down.

NO.


It would be interesting if Platinum really decide to create the side stories involving Luka and Rodin like they mentioned at the DJ interview. An adventure with those characters would be interesting, especially Luka.
 
iconoclast said:
30agmr7.jpg


Feel free to challenge any one of those scores. I just hope you know there's plenty of ways to score well without a combo exploit. You can get a 999999 score for a chapter in a single Angel Arm Alfheim, for example. For the giant boss stages, electric durgas are all you need (you actually score way lower with the Kilgore exploit on those stages, as far as I can tell). Then there's just the basics of keeping your combo going during long verses (you can link the graveyard and car area of the prologue if you're quick enough)...

edit: Also, about the nunchucks, they are good for comboing enraged enemies, since I have Gaze of Despair equipped the entire time. I don't use them often though, Katana/Durga is all you really need. Sometimes I'd switch them out with the Bazillion hands or whip, but that's about it.

I'm convinced. Nice job
 
I gotta say, this game is fantastic. the action is intense and I keep wanting to collect halos and unlock new weapons. The variety of attacks and combos is exactly what i've wanted from this genre for years and is impressive.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
This game is so damn good. I spent hours last night just redoing the prologue and first 3 chapters, shooting for better scores, the Alfheims I skipped (all of them), and other upgrades I failed to catch my first time around (hearts, pearls, etc.) I effectively made no actual headway into the story, but earned a ton of upgrades and updated scores. And even a few achievements. Loving the game so much.

My memory's a bit hazy, but DMC never really achieved this open mission structure system, did it? It was more of a single track experience, where once you beat a stage, you had to continue progressing, right?
 

LiK

Member
Mejilan said:
This game is so damn good. I spent hours last night just redoing the prologue and first 3 chapters, shooting for better scores, the Alfheims I skipped (all of them), and other upgrades I failed to catch my first time around (hearts, pearls, etc.) I effectively made no actual headway into the story, but earned a ton of upgrades and updated scores. And even a few achievements. Loving the game so much.

My memory's a bit hazy, but DMC never really achieved this open mission structure system, did it? It was more of a single track experience, where once you beat a stage, you had to continue progressing, right?
Nope, DMC was the same except the more upgrades you purchased, the more expensive they got.
 

Minamu

Member
Goddamnit, I just managed to get my last platinum to unlock Jeanne on Normal the legit way & then I see this bullshit :( I'm out! :lol
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Was it? Damn, I need to replay that series, then.
I remember being irked because I seemed to be stuck with cruddy scores, but if I can go back and replay stages for more upgrades/better scores, I should give those games another go!
 

LiK

Member
Mejilan said:
Was it? Damn, I need to replay that series, then.
I remember being irked because I seemed to be stuck with cruddy scores, but if I can go back and replay stages for more upgrades/better scores, I should give those games another go!
Yea, from what I remember. Altho I forget if it autosaves like Bayonetta when you quit out of a mission. It's been a long time...
 
LiK said:
Nope, DMC was the same except the more upgrades you purchased, the more expensive they got.
That's only true in DMC4 (and, though in theory I like being able to sell your upgrades back to try out different combinations, it kinda sucked to work it that way because it takes FOREVER to max out).

And in DMC1 you definitely have to keep going after each chapter, rather than getting a chapter select, IIRC.
 

LiK

Member
badcrumble said:
That's only true in DMC4 (and, though in theory I like being able to sell your upgrades back to try out different combinations, it kinda sucked to work it that way because it takes FOREVER to max out).

And in DMC1 you definitely have to keep going after each chapter, rather than getting a chapter select, IIRC.
Really? Hm, gawd, been so long. I thought I was able to mission select in DMC1 or was that avaliable after you beat the game?
 

KingDizzi

Banned
Is the PS3 version pretty much to the point that it is unplayable? Not been following this game much but from what I heard the PS3 version is terrible. I exclusively rent games anyway so chances are that I will give it a shot but no real point in me suffering though something I should be enjoying.
 
KingDizzi said:
Is the PS3 version pretty much to the point that it is unplayable? Not been following this game much but from what I heard the PS3 version is terrible. I exclusively rent games anyway so chances are that I will give it a shot but no real point in me suffering though something I should be enjoying.

I have no first hand experience with the PS3 version, but it's generally advisable to take things read here and on other forums with a grain of salt. Small issues are typically made to seem significant, and anything more than a small issue will render it an unplayable bastard port from hell. Unless it slows to a crawl in the fight scenes, the game should be plenty playable. And it's not like the 360 version is a polished affair, so hey.
 

LiK

Member
KingDizzi said:
Is the PS3 version pretty much to the point that it is unplayable? Not been following this game much but from what I heard the PS3 version is terrible. I exclusively rent games anyway so chances are that I will give it a shot but no real point in me suffering though something I should be enjoying.
It has issues but it's still playable. Plenty of PS3 players here can confirm that
 

LiK

Member
gutter_trash said:
one complaint I have though is finding the extra pieces of the LP missing out on a possible weapon that gets missed from lack of searching
There are only a few hidden LPs. Not much of a headache. I only missed one piece without a guide.
 

micster

Member
No. Its perfectly playable. The reports about it being a completely awful transfer were bull. It has some issues but they're mostly un-noticeable.
 

Daigoro

Member
thanks for the help earlier guys, i beat Hard mode this morning. for some reason the last boss was being a pain in the ass, but i got through without too much trouble.

i submitted a pic to the PA contest, so hopefully i got it in there in time.

now im not sure if i want to go back to Normal or start my Climax run. both i guess. ill start tomorrow.
 

Dave1988

Member
micster said:
No. Its perfectly playable. The reports about it being a completely awful transfer were bull. It has some issues but they're mostly un-noticeable.

Yeah...no.

The Ps3 version is playable but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Certain scenes running at 20 fps and absurdly long loading times are anything but unnoticable.
 

Aske

Member
LiK said:
There are only a few hidden LPs. Not much of a headache. I only missed one piece without a guide.

Ditto - one LP piece (Kilgore, after the lightpath jump) and one Umbra resting place (
behind a breakable door near the start of the airplane level
). I'd never have found the Alfheims without help though. I'm in the camp that wishes they were less off the beaten track, especially since you have to redo them on Platinum runs. The secret missions were perfectly hidden in the DMC series. Tough to find sometimes, but never out of the way. I always replayed them on subsequent runs just for fun. Probably won't be doing that in Bayonetta!
 

Minamu

Member
:lol :lol I just tested the skates for the first time. They are hilarious! Great speed AND you can move across lava :O Why didn't anyone mention that part? o_O
 

micster

Member
Dave1988 said:
Yeah...no.

The Ps3 version is playable but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Certain scenes running at 20 fps and absurdly long loading times are anything but unnoticable.
Very true but a lot of the stuff that was being said before release was immense screen tearing and the graphics toned down in comparison with the 360 version, and I didnt notice either of them really.
 

Aske

Member
Daigoro said:
thanks for the help earlier guys, i beat Hard mode this morning. for some reason the last boss was being a pain in the ass, but i got through without too much trouble.

i submitted a pic to the PA contest, so hopefully i got it in there in time.

now im not sure if i want to go back to Normal or start my Climax run. both i guess. ill start tomorrow.

I had a tough time deciding what to do next myself. In the end I spent a session screwing around in the Prologue to rack up a few chapters to go towards the nunchuks, and to experiment with some less-used weapon combinations. Then I went back to Normal for Alfheims, chests and crows; and now I'm focusing on my speed run for the Bangle of Time. I'm breaking the flow now and again by trying to Platinum Chapters 14 and 8. When I clock under 3 hours, I'll go back to Hard for the last few crows I missed there before hitting Infinite Climax. And then I'll try to unlock Jeanne. That's my battle plan.

Good luck with the shirt, by the way. I would have entered too, but Canadians aren't eligible for the contest. Hope you win one!
 

Roto13

Member
KingDizzi said:
Is the PS3 version pretty much to the point that it is unplayable? Not been following this game much but from what I heard the PS3 version is terrible. I exclusively rent games anyway so chances are that I will give it a shot but no real point in me suffering though something I should be enjoying.
People need to chill about the PS3 version. The only significant problem it has is the load times. (Uh, why isn't there an optional install again?)
 

XenoRaven

Member
Maybe I'm spoiled because I've had Bayonetta installed to my HDD since I got it. But I tried playing it straight from the disc because I heard it reduces the screen-tearing and framerate issues. But the load times irritated me almost immediately. If it was like that on the 360, I can't imagine the issues PS3 users are facing. At least the PS3 users don't have to hear the crazy "WHIIIRRRRRRR" of the 360 spinning a disc.
 

LiK

Member
Minamu said:
:lol :lol I just tested the skates for the first time. They are hilarious! Great speed AND you can move across lava :O Why didn't anyone mention that part? o_O
Did you also get the Odette perfume? complete the look :lol
 
Roto13 said:
People need to chill about the PS3 version. The only significant problem it has is the load times. (Uh, why isn't there an optional install again?)

indeed, the longer loading times bothered me the most. if they've offered an optinal install, i wouldn't have any issues with this version.

<3 DTS sound.
 

Veelk

Banned
I'm having trouble with Verse 2 of the missile riding part. I managed to get platinium on the first part. However, I keep getting silver in verse 2. I'm almost entirely focusing on getting no hits, but it seems my combo has suffered for it. I can't understand why though. I shoot the Dears out of the sky and I kill just about everything I can. I don't use missiles as I like to save that for the final boss. Perhaps I should use them on common enemies more often?

What am I doing wrong gaf?
 
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