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[smik]

Basically "too Japanese" usually refers to things that are overly sexual, which makes sense because America's stance on sexuality is laughable. Also things that are out there and surreal, in the same way Monty Python stuff is surreal.
Also, lack of big brawny men, makes things too Japanese.
Also games like this with J-pop (which consequently enough, doesn't have any j-pop, but apparently according to some people it does) makes this game too japanese.

This has become the growing trend in gaming today, where people can't enjoy games because they "represent" a particular country too much.

i see it entirely different

it just seems that Japanese developers are a little behind when it comes to western developed games, the games feel little outdated and old in terms of game mechanics, cutscenes and storytelling. i find i have played the same game over and over again from games from japan Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Dynasty Warriors and every RPG in the last couple of years just have not evolved as much as i would have liked

also the sexuality you bring up is embedded in the Japaneses culture, its known to have a very young pedophile type of sexual fantasy just google image Tokoyo Girls and you will find your answer

Games like Uncharted, Mass Effect an Bioshock have really pushed the boundaries in Story Telling, Mechanics and overall good gameplay

 

[Scythesurge]

Did I mention how the people who get so offended need to lighten up?
You can also skip all of the cut scenes.

But that would require someone who doesn't like the story to only experience the great gameplay...oh wait...

There really is no excuse, besides of course not liking the actual gameplay. But it's very hard to imagine someone that likes action not liking this game

 

[YuriLowell]

I keep seeing this Japanese games don't evolve thing coming up time after time. Such a silly blanket statement.

Western games would not be anywhere without Japanese games and vice versa.

 

[oracrest]

This feels like God Hand (voice acting/character development/funny stuff in between).

I fucking love it.

Yeah, I am feeling the same.

I love how they are making fun of themselves the whole time.

 

[smik]

I keep seeing this Japanese games don't evolve thing coming up time after time. Such a silly blanket statement.

Western games would not be anywhere without Japanese games and vice versa.

now blankets are getting thrown everywhere :lol


true though

 

[thetrin]

i see it entirely different

it just seems that Japanese developers are a little behind when it comes to western developed games, the games feel little outdated and old in terms of game mechanics, cutscenes and storytelling. i find i have played the same game over and over again from games from japan Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Dynasty Warriors and every RPG in the last couple of years just have not evolved as much as i would have liked

also the sexuality you bring up is embedded in the Japaneses culture, its known to have a very young pedophile type of sexual fantasy just google image Tokoyo Girls and you will find your answer

Games like Uncharted, Mass Effect an Bioshock have really pushed the boundaries in Story Telling, Mechanics and overall good gameplay

Sure, Mass Effect, Bioshock and Uncharted have pushed it, but that's three games out of hundreds released every year. For whatever reason, when it comes to Japanese games, we consider every single release, but when we take the Western perspective into consideration, we take a few amazing examples, and then forget the rest of the fodder exists.

There are HUNDREDS of middling Western games that don't push the genre at all. The problem is that the average western gamer plays 5 games released in Japan, and takes that as an accurate cross section of what the country is releasing.

To be completely honest, though, I don't see how Bayonetta is Japanese, let alone TOO Japanese (outside of the Shuraba). I guess you could say that complex combo systems could be considered Japanese, but there are a lot of Western game design elements in the game:

- Auto-save Checkpoints
- Copious Gore
- Muscley bald men (in the form of Rodin)

I'm sorry, but if you find Bayonetta "Too japanese", I shudder to think what happens when you leave your home country and travel abroad. (The vague "you". This is not directed at YOU)

 

[twenty1]

Wouldn't surprise me, lemme check.

EDIT: No, but it shows a lot of the game.

thank-you

 

[twenty1]

You're right about the internet. If you started a ridiculous rant like this in person, I'd start backing away slowly before you finished your second line. Seeing as we're on the internet, I stuck around for all of your madness. Good show!

LOL....thanks!

 

[Red Blaster]

Games like Uncharted, Mass Effect an Bioshock have really pushed the boundaries in Story Telling, Mechanics and overall good gameplay

No they didn't. Mass Effect pales in comparison to Bioware's earlier PC efforts and Bioshock is a watered down System Shock 2.

 

[thetrin]

No they didn't. Mass Effect pales in comparison to Bioware's earlier PC efforts and Bioshock is a watered down System Shock 2.

And Uncharted is a re-skinned Gears of War mixed with Tomb Raider. They didn't push their respective genres, but Bioshock introduced more people to that style of gameplay, and Uncharted refined upon the concepts of both the games it mimicked.

There ARE examples of western games that have pushed the envelope, but there are also examples of Japanese games pushing the envelope.

 

[Dabookerman]

also the sexuality you bring up is embedded in the Japaneses culture, its known to have a very young pedophile type of sexual fantasy just google image Tokoyo Girls and you will find your answer

Games like Uncharted, Mass Effect an Bioshock have really pushed the boundaries in Story Telling, Mechanics and overall good gameplay

The loli culture is just a small sub culture in Japan. It does not represent Japan as a whole. And from what I've seen, none of it is present in Bayonetta. Loli games and all that are aimed specifically at the lonely otakus in Japan, and not at the entire population.

And there are games with good stories from both sides. I could name the Phoenix Wright series. I haven't played Mass Effect or much of Bioshock, but regarding Uncharted.. Uncharted, story wise, is just a rip off of many hollywood movies. It does nothing new or amazing. It is still entertaining.

I can enjoy games from wherever. I just think people who are put off games because they are "too Japanese" are just a largely narrow minded bunch.

 

[MyEpitomeCliché]

I dunno, after primarily playing western developed games for some time now, I find this to be rather refreshing. Sure, it's campy (and it's not shy about it, it's actually well aware), but I think that just adds to the appeal. The tongue is definitely firmly planted in the cheek. Also, it's a fucking incredible action game and quite fun. It's a shame that the general machismo gaming public won't ever play this because of their irrational fear of all things Japanese.

 

[smik]

Sure, Mass Effect, Bioshock and Uncharted have pushed it, but that's three games out of hundreds released every year. For whatever reason, when it comes to Japanese games, we consider every single release, but when we take the Western perspective into consideration, we take a few amazing examples, and then forget the rest of the fodder exists.

There are HUNDREDS of middling Western games that don't push the genre at all. The problem is that the average western gamer plays 5 games released in Japan, and takes that as an accurate cross section of what the country is releasing.

To be completely honest, though, I don't see how Bayonetta is Japanese, let alone TOO Japanese (outside of the Shuraba). I guess you could say that complex combo systems could be considered Japanese, but there are a lot of Western game design elements in the game:

- Auto-save Checkpoints
- Copious Gore
- Muscley bald men (in the form of Rodin)

I'm sorry, but if you find Bayonetta "Too japanese", I shudder to think what happens when you leave your home country and travel abroad. (The vague "you". This is not directed at YOU)

i wasnt saying anything about "too Japanese" but just stating what recent trends have been happening in the last 4-5 years.

example: Lost planet i enjoyed it alot the gameplay was ok and the setting was amazing but the story fell of track real quick due to these trends, you can see in LP2 that they are going out of their way to make it more up to the standards of western devs

(edit even RE5 was affected by these same mistakes) even though i did enjoy it

its no secret games have been in the decline coming out of japan, even big name producer have came out and said its a dry land because they dont evolve and sell



oh yeah this is a Bayonetta thread :lol im making it worse needs to be discussed in another thread

 

[thetrin]

The loli culture is just a small sub culture in Japan. It does not represent Japan as a whole. And from what I've seen, none of it is present in Bayonetta. Loli games and all that are aimed specifically at the lonely otakus in Japan, and not at the entire population.

Well, even in the case of lolita characters in mainstream releases, they rarely represent a sexual character. They're usually there because they're cute (and Japanese people LOOOOOVE cute. I lived there for so long, I've started loving cute things too T_T)

Americans seem to revile things that are cute, unless they're animals. Suddenly if you say "boy, that little girl is adorable" everyone thinks you're a pedo. Next thing you know, you're on a sexual predator watch list, and Rapelay is the only thing keeping you going. T_T

Btw, the Shuraba is INSANELY awesome. I've only played the first two chapters, but it is one kick ass sword. It's such a huge leap in damage from the guns and hand to hand.

 

[eagledare]

No they didn't. Mass Effect pales in comparison to Bioware's earlier PC efforts and Bioshock is a watered down System Shock 2.

Cool story bro.

I'm loving this game but god damn if quicktime events don't make me want to chainsaw newborns.

 

[PhatSaqs]

People complaining about this game take gaming WAY too seriously IMO.
Loving this game. If you're a fan of NG/DMC its a must buy IMO.

 

[mjc]

Cool story bro.

I'm loving this game but god damn if quicktime events don't make me want to chainsaw newborns.

Yeah they're pretty annoying, especially if you accidentally hit the button twice instead of once and they fail it automatically.

 

[HiResDes]

Been playing since 9;30 this morning. But, it only seems like I've played for 3 hours. Jeez, what a game. Well worth waiting for. Love the references to other videogames. Big plus.

Oh, and fuck Tomonobu Itagaki. He could only wish to make a game this good. Bayonetta makes NG look like poo. Yeah, I said it. POOOO!

People jump on every opportunity to try and shit all over Itagaki, but the truth is that the man always keeps his hater repellant handy, just in case hatorade drinkin' suckas like you try to put him down. Nobody fucks Itagaki, but rather Itagaki fucks you.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

the games feel little outdated and old in terms of 1)game mechanics, 2)cutscenes and 3)storytelling.

1)Which would be valid if Bayonetta didn't have one of the greatest combat systems of all time. Edit: OF ALL TIME!

2)Which would be valid if we pretended companies like Capcom and Square Enix didn't exist.

3) Which would be valid if any game this gen had a worthwhile story.

People jump on every opportunity to try and shit all over Itagaki, but the truth is that the man always keeps his hater repellant handy, just in case hatorade drinkin' suckas like you try to put him down. Nobody fucks Itagaki, but rather Itagaki fucks you.

The problem is that Itagaki bashed this game during an interview: "Bayo-whatta?", "I'd be embarrased if I ever made this type of game.", etc.

He's cool but he's also kind of a douche.

 

[Shito]

I'm loving this game but god damn if quicktime events don't make me want to chainsaw newborns.

I'd rather chainsaw every goddamn game-designer that still thinks QTE are a good thing.
This is my only complaint with Kamiya's vision of the genre in Bayonetta.

 

[quinntendopower]

its so easy to see almost immediately how quickly it separates itself from any possible competition in the near future.

everything you can possibly want is in there.

this is almost a perfect thread for how fucking cliche a thread can possibly be. you turn the perfect game into rants about culture.

if this game comes off as "ok", or "bad", then you simply have no taste in games. it's not a matter of opinion this time. it just isn't. you missed the boat at some point and there is no hope. go play assassins creed 2 instead and giggle with glee while you hold a button in and watch the game unfold.

 

[Dabookerman]

The problem is that Itagaki bashed this game during an interview: "Bayo-whatta?", "I'd be embarrased if I ever made this type of game.", etc.

He's cool but he's also kind of a douche.

I like him. It's like watching wrestlers insult each other. It's all for the comedy.

 

[george_us]

i see it entirely different

it just seems that Japanese developers are a little behind when it comes to western developed games, the games feel little outdated and old in terms of game mechanics, cutscenes and storytelling. i find i have played the same game over and over again from games from japan Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Dynasty Warriors and every RPG in the last couple of years just have not evolved as much as i would have liked

also the sexuality you bring up is embedded in the Japaneses culture, its known to have a very young pedophile type of sexual fantasy just google image Tokoyo Girls and you will find your answer

Games like Uncharted, Mass Effect an Bioshock have really pushed the boundaries in Story Telling, Mechanics and overall good gameplay

Hell no. If anything, playing games like Bayonetta shows just how far behind Western devs. still are behind Japanese days.

 

[sonicmj1]

People jump on every opportunity to try and shit all over Itagaki, but the truth is that the man always keeps his hater repellant handy, just in case hatorade drinkin' suckas like you try to put him down. Nobody fucks Itagaki, but rather Itagaki fucks you.

If I made a similar game as a game I made in the company I quit, people would say, "What an idiot, can't he make anything else?" Well, that is more or less the opinion I have for, uh, that Bayo-something game.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Semblance]

lolz @ another West vs. East debate.

I was up until four in the goddamn morning playing this. I need to leave for work in a few min. Worth it? Fuck yes.

 

[Draft]

I'd rather chainsaw every goddamn game-designer that still thinks QTE are a good thing.
This is my only complaint with Kamiya's vision of the genre in Bayonetta.

Yeah. I don't like that QTE deaths hose the chapter score. I guess they kind of have to, but really, they don't need to have QTEs in the first place.

 

[shintoki]

Yeah. I don't like that QTE deaths hose the chapter score. I guess they kind of have to, but really, they don't need to have QTEs in the first place.

DMC4 had it right with Nero's buster arm. I beat up the enemy, he gets stunned, I hit a single button. And it's normally a quick pounding. There you go. Not this, OMG I have to lose him up. Right joystick, left joystick. pound X for 15seconds! Repeat 2 more times. If you can't turn it into gameplay. I'll accept that. Not happy with, but accept

Except for more Boulder boss battle QTEs. Greatest QTE yet

Games like Uncharted, Mass Effect an Bioshock have really pushed the boundaries in Story Telling, Mechanics and overall good gameplay

Story Telling....:lol
Mechanics....:lol
overall good gameplay....:lol

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Am I the only one who never had a problem with the QTEs?

I can usually tell which one is going to happen before it does: Blue glowing circles tip you off for pressing the X button(pink circles, square button for PS3), witch time activating on it's own (with a timer on top of the screen sometimes) usually means A(360)/X(PS3) button or A+UP/X+UP, etc.

I've never actually failed a QTE in fact.

They're still mostly dumb though.

 

[qcf x2]

I bought this game yesterday after playing the demo a week or so ago. The genre is not my cup of tea, but I bought it because 1. the demo was good and 2. I'd like to support Sega making games that aren't an embarassment to what the company once was. I have yet to put the disc in, but the demo told me I won't regret the purchase.

 

[jabipun]

Yeah. I don't like that QTE deaths hose the chapter score. I guess they kind of have to, but really, they don't need to have QTEs in the first place.

Agreed. QTE's are dumb.

Having said that - Bayonetta is the best action game I've ever played - and I've played them all (well, all that are worth playing).

 

[Scythesurge]

its so easy to see almost immediately how quickly it separates itself from any possible competition in the near future.

everything you can possibly want is in there.

this is almost a perfect thread for how fucking cliche a thread can possibly be. you turn the perfect game into rants about culture.

if this game comes off as "ok", or "bad", then you simply have no taste in games. it's not a matter of opinion this time. it just isn't. you missed the boat at some point and there is no hope. go play assassins creed 2 instead and giggle with glee while you hold a button in and watch the game unfold.

lol yup

 

[eshwaaz]

its so easy to see almost immediately how quickly it separates itself from any possible competition in the near future.

everything you can possibly want is in there.

this is almost a perfect thread for how fucking cliche a thread can possibly be. you turn the perfect game into rants about culture.

if this game comes off as "ok", or "bad", then you simply have no taste in games. it's not a matter of opinion this time. it just isn't. you missed the boat at some point and there is no hope. go play assassins creed 2 instead and giggle with glee while you hold a button in and watch the game unfold.

I'm having a great time with Bayonetta, but these kinds of elitist declarations of "fact" irritate the shit out of me. "Everything you can possibly want is in there" - how the hell do you know what people want?

 

[Peff]

I've yet to die from a QTE too and I've finished the game a couple of times. If you really want to know whether there'll be one soon or not, you can pause the game and if you can't skip the sequence, well, pay attention.

 

[YuriLowell]

FACT: THIS IS THE GOTY.

Anyone who disagrees is just wrong.

 

[JoeFenix]

its so easy to see almost immediately how quickly it separates itself from any possible competition in the near future.

everything you can possibly want is in there.

this is almost a perfect thread for how fucking cliche a thread can possibly be. you turn the perfect game into rants about culture.

if this game comes off as "ok", or "bad", then you simply have no taste in games. it's not a matter of opinion this time. it just isn't. you missed the boat at some point and there is no hope. go play assassins creed 2 instead and giggle with glee while you hold a button in and watch the game unfold.

The truth right here, some people just don't fucking get it.

 

[Draft]

DMC4 had it right with Nero's buster arm. I beat up the enemy, he gets stunned, I hit a single button. And it's normally a quick pounding. There you go. Not this, OMG I have to lose him up. Right joystick, left joystick. pound X for 15seconds! Repeat 2 more times. If you can't turn it into gameplay. I'll accept that. Not happy with, but accept

Except for more Boulder boss battle QTEs. Greatest QTE yet


Story Telling....:lol
Mechanics....:lol
overall good gameplay....:lol

I don't mind the combat QTEs so much. They're pretty laid back, not at all God of War style fail and repeat the last 30 seconds of the fight BS. It's the dodge this falling rock, jump off this collapsing bridge shit that instakills if you miss the cue.

 

[Baker]

I'd rather chainsaw every goddamn game-designer that still thinks QTE are a good thing.
This is my only complaint with Kamiya's vision of the genre in Bayonetta.

I am the world's #1 supporter of QTE segments. I have the plaque on my wall.

That said, even I think they're ridiculous in this game so far. Maybe it will be different now that know they're coming up. The one after the "boss" fight in Chapter 2 was really WTF worthy. I'm watching a crazy cutscene then all of a sudden I'm at the game over screen!

 

[borghe]

regarding east vs. west, I just think that CURRENTLY most of the prominent game changing games (does that even make sense?) are western developed as opposed to the 32-bit gen and before when the vast majority of game changers were eastern developed. I personally don't see it as anything other than a trend, coincidence, or luck of the draw. There are obviously general cultural tastes involved to a degree. FPS titles vs. linear party-based RPGs. Sandbox titles vs. dozens and dozens and dozens of simultaneous enemies in frantic action, etc. However the two are mutually exclusive. There are people who are simply more tuned to the types of games from one culture or the other, and then there are gamers who are more interested in newer game styles and concepts and don't really care where they come from.

Demon's Souls is a great example of both of these. Some like it because it is a more Japanese style game. Others like it because, regardless of where it came from, the game design and execution is totally fresh and new. The people who find it too "japanese" are people not looking for innovation or new concepts and just want the same western themes and styles ad nauseum.

The "problem" with Bayonetta is it doesn't bring much new to the table. It's an excellence in execution, but in a genre that has been pretty flat for a bit. So of course the "western fans" won't be won over, and it probably won't pull over many people looking for something new (unless of course they haven't really tried games in the high action genre before). It's not ACTUALLY a problem with bayonetta, but it could certainly affect sales.

and before anyone jumps on the "sales don't mean quality. look at mw2, etc", of course I know that. But typically games like MW2 will sell well because, let's face it, there are just a shitton of consoles in the US and probably a shitton of gamers that are fine playing minorly incremental games in familiar genres/franchises. It's strictly a numbers game.

back to the game....

I am the world's #1 supporter of QTE segments. I have the plaque on my wall.

That said, even I think they're ridiculous in this game so far. Maybe it will be different now that know they're coming up. The one after the "boss" fight in Chapter 2 was really WTF worthy. I'm watching a crazy cutscene then all of a sudden I'm at the game over screen!

yeah, agree completely. I thought it was getting stupid with GoW and especially GoWII where you're having to rapidly tap a button and then switch to QTE immediately... To throw QTEs at you really out of nowhere is pretty lame.. Sure you only die once or twice, but it still comes off as really just a cheap death. Their should be some indication that things are going interactive again first.

 

[HiResDes]

Haters gonna hate.

yeah I was being facetious.

 

[thetrin]

Am I the only one who never had a problem with the QTEs?

I can usually tell which one is going to happen before it does: Blue glowing circles tip you off for pressing the X button(pink circles, square button for PS3), witch time activating on it's own (with a timer on top of the screen sometimes) usually means A(360)/X(PS3) button or A+UP/X+UP, etc.

I've never actually failed a QTE in fact.

They're still mostly dumb though.

It's not a huge issue for me, but considering that they didn't have a QTE for the streetcar in Chapter 2, why not find some way to make the sequences more hands-on? I realize that would sacrifice the cinematic nature of it, but the whole rest of the game seems to do just fine giving the player almost complete control.

 

[black_vegeta]

I don't mind QTE's, sometimes it's nice to take a break from the action and watch the mayhem occur with a few button presses.

 

[Scythesurge]

I don't mind QTE's, sometimes it's nice to take a break from the action and watch the mayhem occur with a few button presses.

I think the ones people are complaining about (at least the ones I'm complaining about) are during the cut scenes, not the actual battles themselves. You know, when the game gets all rendery and stuff and you don't have any control but the game flashes a button or two for you to press within a second. Those are the ones that are annoying.

 

[andymcc]

I think the ones people are complaining about (at least the ones I'm complaining about) are during the cut scenes, not the actual battles themselves. You know, when the game gets all rendery and stuff and you don't have any control but the game flashes a button or two for you to press within a second. Those are the ones that are annoying.

what makes them especially annoying is that bayonetta is already doing stuff during these scenes, liking jumping around or dodging stuff, and in the midst of all this, NOW I GET TO PRESS A BUTTON. :lol

my only qualm with the game, though.

 

[Red Blaster]

Random QTEs and half-cutscenes are my only gripes with the game.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Ugh, why does school have to exist?

I just unlocked the beast within for christ sakes.

 

[Dave1988]

This just proves that QTEs need to die in a fire. If Kamiya can't make 'em good, no one can.

 

[andymcc]

This just proves that QTEs need to die in a fire. If Kamiya can't make 'em good, no one can.

the only ones in this game i have problems with are the ones during the cutscenes. the standard ones during combat aren't of the "fucking retarded" variety seen in God of War, which is kind of like playing a music/rhythm game with a standard controller.

i've been playing the original shenmue recently, and that game does a good job of setting you up, especially with time allotted, with its QTEs.

 

[Fugu]

If Bayonetta isn't pushing the "gameplay mechanics" envelope, I really, really would like to play the game that did.

Seriously, this is the most solidly constructed game I've ever played (in terms of the fighting, anyway). It's going to be tough to top this.

Alfheim #20 on hard is a pain in the ass.

Spoiler

I keep running out of time for the Glories so I get desprate to kill them real quick and I get my shit whipped.

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Anso]

This just proves that QTEs need to die in a fire. If Kamiya can't make 'em good, no one can.

*goes to play Ninja Blade*

Haters gonna hate.

 

[thetrin]

the only ones in this game i have problems with are the ones during the cutscenes. the standard ones during combat aren't of the "fucking retarded" variety seen in God of War, which is kind of like playing a music/rhythm game with a standard controller.

i've been playing the original shenmue recently, and that game does a good job of setting you up, especially with time allotted, with its QTEs.

One thing I loved about the Shenmue was that failing QTEs didn't mean failing the sequence. You could still finish by stumbling over a box you failed to jump over, but it wasn't as graceful. I'm still not sure why that hasn't been replicated. Shenmue's was the first to popularize QTEs, yet no one has done them as well.

*goes to play Ninja Blade*

Haters gonna hate.

Blegh. Ninja Blade had terrible QTE implementation. If you just revert back to the last failed QTE every time you fail it, what's the point of having them at all? It wasn't dynamic, it didn't have any weight in failure, and it served pretty much no purpose, as you didn't even see the repercussions of your failed actions. It was just a canned cutscene with button presses that paused and rewound when you failed to press one.