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Bergdahl not given jail time for desertion, ticks off a certain someone (CNN)
- Thread starter Kimawolf
- Start date
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"At least six soldiers were killed in subsequent searches for him, according to soldiers involved in the operations to find him. "
"Manpower and assets -- such as scarce surveillance drones and helicopters -- were redirected to the hunt. The lack of assets is one reason the closure of a dangerous combat outpost, COP Keating, was delayed. Eight soldiers were killed at COP Keating before it was ultimately closed."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/bergdahl-deserter-or-hero/
"Bergdahl was a deserter, and soldiers from his own unit died trying to track him down."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/we-lo...ahl-a-guy-who-walked-off-in-the-dead-of-night
"One of them, Sgt. First Class Mark Allen, was shot through the head and lost the ability to walk, talk or take care of himself, and now has minimal consciousness."
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/...ence.html?referer=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/
Leona Lewis
Banned
Wow, this place has taken a predictable turn.
Who to believe, the people prosecuting him?
Nope? Then how about the command sergeant major?
Who to believe, the people prosecuting him?
The New York Times said:
Nope? Then how about the command sergeant major?
Hope that clarifies things.Command Sgt. Maj. Ken Wolf said:
It won't.
PabloBolivar
Banned
Great post. At least we know he will always be known as a traitor. That's probably worse than a death penalty.
So I take from this thread that people are willing to wish a guy who was was captured by the fucking Taliban for 5 fucking years every ill of the world and call him a piece of shit only because he deserted?
Everyday I am more and more happy, that I dont live in the near of america and its shitty militarism. Maybe the fat of your burgers already starts to affect your brains.
Everyday I am more and more happy, that I dont live in the near of america and its shitty militarism. Maybe the fat of your burgers already starts to affect your brains.
llien
Member
I think it's not right to see things though Trump/Clinton lens.
Deserting is not OK, regardless of if you get caught by Taliban afterwards. (and had that not happened, why would he spend time in prison and be punished at all?)
I think you are mixing 3 different things here, first, the law.
My understanding is he was found guilty of deserting.
Second, morale. Are you responsible for something that you COULD NOT foresee? I would say definitely not.
But third, again morale, wasn't it reasonable for him to expect that there would be rescue operations to save him? I think it was. (regardless of whether someone died when searching for him)
Deserting is not OK, regardless of if you get caught by Taliban afterwards. (and had that not happened, why would he spend time in prison and be punished at all?)
I think you are mixing 3 different things here, first, the law.
My understanding is he was found guilty of deserting.
Second, morale. Are you responsible for something that you COULD NOT foresee? I would say definitely not.
But third, again morale, wasn't it reasonable for him to expect that there would be rescue operations to save him? I think it was. (regardless of whether someone died when searching for him)
Nathan_Drake
Member
3 soldiers who received life altering injuries did speak during the sentencing phase. That isn't misinformation. One soldiers wife had to because he is no longer able to. Bergdahl apologized regarding their injuries in the search of him.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/25/politics/bowe-bergdahl-sentencing-hearing/index.html
Also this was a military court. Their judicial system is not the same as a civilian court. This crime was very serious. The UCMJ is the governing law.
If external factors shouldn't influence the punishment. I have a hard time thinking sever injuries to others is an external factor but let's go with that thinking. Then his capture and imprisonment by the Taliban should be an external factor and not considered when sentencing came around.
My opinion is he deserved jail time.
DKPOWPOW
Member
I think the debate over whether he caused the deaths of other soldiers is bullshit. The fact is, because he left many soldiers had him in the back of their minds during their missions on top of resources and manpower being diverted to finding him.
He may not have directly caused their deaths, but adding more stress and more work to an already dangerous job did not help matters. Had he stayed on his position we would not even be having this discussion. He played a part. He deserted them.
He may not have directly caused their deaths, but adding more stress and more work to an already dangerous job did not help matters. Had he stayed on his position we would not even be having this discussion. He played a part. He deserted them.
Polioliolio
Member
I understand that 'deserting' is a big deal, but let's have some sympathy for fellow humans in the fact that war is fucking horrible and scary.
Soldiers putting their lives on the line even for one day probably aren't being paid enough for that. If the dude woke up and thought 'oh my god what the fuck am I doing get me out of here!', I totally sympathize with that. They probably should have sent someone who wasn't scared for their life and adequately screened for that ahead of time.
Plus, the dude was in prison for 5 years. He's not a piece of shit anymore than he was a normal frightened animal. If you still want to punish him, I think you're a little sick. Don't give him a medal, but let it go, he's already been disgraced and punished. What do you gain from further cruelties? He's not cut out for war. Kick him out and send him back to the McDonald's job waiting for him at home and let that be it.
Soldiers putting their lives on the line even for one day probably aren't being paid enough for that. If the dude woke up and thought 'oh my god what the fuck am I doing get me out of here!', I totally sympathize with that. They probably should have sent someone who wasn't scared for their life and adequately screened for that ahead of time.
Plus, the dude was in prison for 5 years. He's not a piece of shit anymore than he was a normal frightened animal. If you still want to punish him, I think you're a little sick. Don't give him a medal, but let it go, he's already been disgraced and punished. What do you gain from further cruelties? He's not cut out for war. Kick him out and send him back to the McDonald's job waiting for him at home and let that be it.
Yeah i feel like he definitely suffered for what he did. Putting him to death like some want is crazy.
The right decision was made, considering that Trump decided to weigh in as both presidential candidate and president. The judge in the case even said as much. Even if he didn't weigh in, the guy spent 5 years in captivity for his stupidly, and has to bear the stigma of a dishonorable discharge.
Nathan_Drake
Member
No offense but just because you served doesn't give you the right to say the right decision was made. If that is your opinion than that is acceptable. Others on here may have served as well so discounting their opinion isn't really fair.
I wouldn't consider myself much of a patriot but I would give up my seat and the clothes off my back to anyone who served. Present company included. Your insight is definitely noted.
I think he took that into account with "almost never".
The claim of six soldiers dying while searching for Bergdahl is very wide-spread.
Here's the President (while still campaigning last year), not only making the claim, but also stating that if he had his way, he'd give Bergdahl the ol' Pinochet treatment. (ie: toss him out of a plane) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLaYgmO3Ed8
The NY Times makes an attempt to clarify the situation : https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/...-be-tied-to-6-lost-lives-facts-are-murky.html
It's a difficult topic to correct people on, 'cos there's a knee-jerk reaction that you must be an unpatriotic American-troop hater if you try to explain the timeline of events. Pretty much all the cable news outlets have claimed that the soldiers died "searching for Bergdahl", with the intimation that it was in the immediate hours that followed his missing the roll-call.
Here's the President (while still campaigning last year), not only making the claim, but also stating that if he had his way, he'd give Bergdahl the ol' Pinochet treatment. (ie: toss him out of a plane) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLaYgmO3Ed8
The NY Times makes an attempt to clarify the situation : https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/...-be-tied-to-6-lost-lives-facts-are-murky.html
It's a difficult topic to correct people on, 'cos there's a knee-jerk reaction that you must be an unpatriotic American-troop hater if you try to explain the timeline of events. Pretty much all the cable news outlets have claimed that the soldiers died "searching for Bergdahl", with the intimation that it was in the immediate hours that followed his missing the roll-call.
A low information mob mentality is the worst thing thats been exposed in recent years. Even in this thread you have people still believing falsehoods, and I feel like they want to believe in order to justify thier outrage.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Welcome to the all new Gaf
quickwhips
Member
If the guy deserted he should time for that. You sign up you have to complete your time. I dont care if he did get held. Send him to jail and let him out when he finishes anytime for deserting.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Bergdahl's desertion has seen more of a discussion into needless suffering and death of soldiers than the politicians who sent them all to these wars.
What? people peddling wrong information got corrected quickly. Do you mean the folks who think jail time is appropriate? that is a discussion to be had.
And they came back with more bullshit and got someone to subscribe to their second salvo of fake news.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Yeah this was what I was feeling
Though he did wander off by himself in an area that he knew was enemy territory. He knowingly put himself at risk of being taken/killed. So the fault is still his.
Why are you quoting me? Nothing you said undoes what I said.
Edit - oh ok, the OP edited out the statement that he got captured willingly.
Rodolfo Brito
Member
I remember listening the season two of the Serial Podcast and being informed that no one died on the searches for him. Btw, this is a great podcast if you want to try to understand the order of events regarding his deserting.
Those people are free to speak up. In this world whether you agree or not, certain people have more say or credibility. He is also right on that most of the outspoken rage of this decision comes from those who have not nor intend on serving.
The military itself made this call and unless you believe there was bias or corruption, people who have no stake opinion does not matter.
With that, I back this decision as being a POW can definitely be considered as being in this scenario jailed.
I really wish people stop falling for the right's propaganda... The fact it had to be corrected so many times is saddening.
I enjoyed season two a heck of a lot. To now see some of the slander and hyper emotional nonsense around this case has been baffling, to say the least, but then, with Trump as your president the bar for such behaviour has never been lower.
Good to see some sensible posts in here, after a rocky start.
snail_maze
Member
I believe that he had underlying mental issues and shouldn't have been allowed to enlist in the first place. This seems more like a consequence of the military not doing due dilligence when it comes to who they send into combat roles. You don't just start walking into hostile territory if you have any sense of self preservation
Nathan_Drake
Member
For one I served for 10 years as well but I didn't throw that out there. That then affords me the right to say that just because we served doesn't make us am authority on the matter and can't say the right decision was made. We like all others can offer opinions. I will not let the fact I served be a means to make my opinion the right one.
I didn't ignore other posts and did not agree with the propaganda. I linked a CNN story that detailed the seriously wounded troops that testified during sentencing. Nobody had a comment for those facts. So please don't say everyone on the side of thinking he deserved jail time are non serving civilians that have no facts and have not researched and followed the case. I even took the step to say it was my opinion to try and avoid the old GAF mentality of right or wrong statements. No absolutes here. I stopped posting in threads like this a while ago due to how hard it was to differ in opinion. I hope it can change.
It is not so much about right or wrong, but the weight of the opinion.
I guess I should of pointed out that, that propaganda comment I made was not aimed at you despite me quoting your post. I also did not say "everyone" on the side thinking he deserves jail time are non-serving civilians, I said most.
While I agree there are no absolutes in that there will be many who disagree and agree on this front, there is a clear argument to be had that there is no need for additional jail time.
The guy deserted and got captured and imprisoned for 5 years, apparently had mental health issues, and had a dishonorable discharge so forfeits any veteran services.
Punishment for the sake of punishment is not justice. If he wasn't already imprisoned I would agree with you.
What argument can be had for him needing to serve more time in a prison? Do you think he should have no opportunity to reclaim his life because he deserted? 5 years is no joke... that is 5 years he will never get back spent in a cage.
Nathan_Drake
Member
Part of what makes the military works is knowing that your brothers and sisters in arms have your back. That no matter what they will fight by you and like the soldiers injured will look for you if you are gone. Leave no man behind is the motto. This contributes to men and women serving as its a promise to be taken care of in dangerous situations. The military punishing him would make an example of him and let others know this is not acceptable behavior in the military. It is a different world with different expectations. It is hard to use the same logic as in the civilian environment.
If U.S army were conscripts or had the draft going on, I would understand "needing to make an example", but all of the soldiers of U.S are volunteers and the vast majority of them will not desert and will have their partner's back even if there wasn't a jail time/death penalty (they will still get a dishonorable discharge). There is no point in making an example out of him considering the circumstances.
Like I said, if he didn't spend years already imprisoned, it would make sense to jail him for desertion.
Well, good thing we have a president in office that basically ensured he would not get prison time. This guy is a special case in a lot of ways; he can't be an example in any fair way.
I think we can all agree its a messed up situation and that he needed to take responsibility for his action where the military court was concerned. But we'll never know what the "true" verdict would have been.
I honestly feel prison time would have been a part of it.
Nathan_Drake
Member
Well I can agree with that
Right. Anybody who's ever been in the service can tell you his life has likely been a living hell ever since he's been recovered. That plus the years of actual torture is punishment enough.
Night.Ninja
Banned
So much conflicting information in this thread
He abandoned his post on his own volition. That the Taliban picked him up is a result of him disobeying orders and not doing his job.
I'm ok with him not in prison but I'm not crying over his fine or demotion either.
I done think anyone can be mad at either of those.
highrider
Banned
See, I think it kind of does give me the right. I have empathy for the guy, and I share some experiences with him. Of course it is just my opinion, I dont mean to speak for others who served. Its just something Ive noticed on social media. Yet to see any of my veteran friends come hard at the guy, combat is scary and does things to your mind. I wasnt even a front line soldier and I experienced it. Soldiers are quite literally the little guy.
Nathan_Drake
Member
Well he is not surprisingly unpopular among prior service on FB. Here is a group of over 300k https://www.facebook.com/DysfunctionalVeterans/
Lot of combat vets. They are quite feisty ha. There are a lot of posts in there about the situation and him. There have been since his release from the Taliban.
Here is the top shirt in Grunt Style. https://www.facebook.com/gruntstyle/
Is a Fuck Betgdahl shirt with money going to vet charities.
So I would say it's a fair assumption to think there is a very large opposition to him and his situation on social media and among Vet circles. Right or not.
highrider
Banned
Yeah, Im in a 3rd ID Alumni page and havent seen one word about it. 3rd ID is the most combat ready division in the army, always the first to deploy. Im hesitant to put much stock in the dysfunctional veteran page, general veteran groups that dont require you to prove your veteran status are full of fake veterans pretty much. Its a popular thing to lie about, particularly by hard right types. Wearing a Fuck This Guy shirt is pretty pathetic, but hey, Im not discounting they exist.
In my experience combat veterans are not fiesty at all. They are really laid back and happy to be alive.
Edit: just took a gander at the page you linked. Its just memes and selling merchandise. Im comfortable completely discounting it now.
Nathan_Drake
Member
300000 people talking the talk but all mostly liars. I guess. Agree to disagree. Thanks for your service and deployments though for real.
highrider
Banned
I didnt even see any posts, just memes and merchandise. Maybe you have to join? When I used an Alumni page as an example its because the people on there are specific about their units and where they were stationed.
Hey all. New guy here. First post. So...no pressure. Also, up front, I'll say I'm not going to specifically argue with anyone in this thread since there's already so many different perspectives.
I served in the U.S. Navy, and was terrified to do so. I considered trying to get out of my first deployment. I didn't want to widow my wife, and as I said I was terrified. Full disclosure. I don't appreciate anyone who has not served criticizing deserters, TBH. I know that will set some people off, but think about it. You're criticizing someone for not being able to follow through with a serious, dangerous commitment you weren't even willing to make in your own life. I think it's an important point to consider.
Our justice system is incredibly cruel to those without the means for a sound legal defense, and Bergdahl surely does not have those means. There are countless examples of how the wealthy get away with crimes and the less fortunate are wrongly and excessively imprisoned.
That said, I think the best course would be to accept that all harsh punishments possible for Bergdahl were considered, and if he "got off easy" in your book, perhaps give more credence to the reasons given for such "easy" treatment.
"Time served" is a real concept, and if "time served" is with the Taliban instead of in our prisons, I don't care. It still applies IMO. We have terrible imprisonment rates and punishment terms, and I celebrate any time another option is decided upon for a non-violent criminal.
I'll leave alone the debate over the six dead rescuers, seems like no one should hang their hat on that potential misinformation. Again, consider our justice system. If that were true, it would be taken into account. In the military, these sorts of follow-on consequences to your actions are held against you, if applicable.
I guess that's all I wanted to say. Happy to be with you. Only 5 months of waiting! I really wanted to talk about Dan Simmons but that ship sailed long ago (it's what drew me here).
I served in the U.S. Navy, and was terrified to do so. I considered trying to get out of my first deployment. I didn't want to widow my wife, and as I said I was terrified. Full disclosure. I don't appreciate anyone who has not served criticizing deserters, TBH. I know that will set some people off, but think about it. You're criticizing someone for not being able to follow through with a serious, dangerous commitment you weren't even willing to make in your own life. I think it's an important point to consider.
Our justice system is incredibly cruel to those without the means for a sound legal defense, and Bergdahl surely does not have those means. There are countless examples of how the wealthy get away with crimes and the less fortunate are wrongly and excessively imprisoned.
That said, I think the best course would be to accept that all harsh punishments possible for Bergdahl were considered, and if he "got off easy" in your book, perhaps give more credence to the reasons given for such "easy" treatment.
"Time served" is a real concept, and if "time served" is with the Taliban instead of in our prisons, I don't care. It still applies IMO. We have terrible imprisonment rates and punishment terms, and I celebrate any time another option is decided upon for a non-violent criminal.
I'll leave alone the debate over the six dead rescuers, seems like no one should hang their hat on that potential misinformation. Again, consider our justice system. If that were true, it would be taken into account. In the military, these sorts of follow-on consequences to your actions are held against you, if applicable.
I guess that's all I wanted to say. Happy to be with you. Only 5 months of waiting! I really wanted to talk about Dan Simmons but that ship sailed long ago (it's what drew me here).
phatmike128
Member
Im not American, so I dont understand what do people mean about him being dishonourably discharged fucking up his life?
How so?
How so?
highrider
Banned
Its essentially a major black mark on your permanent record, making a lot of traditional employment difficult. Its not as bad as it used to be, people are more sympathetic now, but it isnt good.