Bernie Sanders to House Democrats - 'Our goal is not to win elections' - Gets booed.

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I blame both sides. Vote out every politician more concerned about their job security than the American people they were elected to represent.

Any politician focusing their time and money on elections moreso than compromising on meaningful changes is disgusting.

Enacting meaningful changes takes a long time. There's no guarantee change will happen in a single congressperson, senator or president's term. Politicians *need* to focus time and money into elections in order to ensure that they're in office, and actually have influence, to make sure that change happens. Otherwise they lose their job and their successor potentially derails any progress that they may have made.

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lol, "hitches"

I'm going to guess Bernie's getting a sweet prime time speaking slot at the DNC out of a pre-convention endorsement.
 
I guess Democrats just shouldn't be better than Republicans and think of only re-election

There's something to be said for not compromising morals for political gain.

However considering that not winning this election means at least 4 years of president trump and what looks like 2 seats on the supreme court, this seems like a very shitty moment to not win an election.

Additionally, since demographic change favor the current party direction long term, it seems like a particularly bad election to loose. Why gamble on an election loss when it seems like the policies someone like bernie clamors for are perfectly reachable by winning it?


I sympathize that for some, this kind of change is too slow, but i seriously doubt loosing this election, and then hoping that they can instigate some kind of revolution among the majority of the electorate, is the faster way - and that there won't be all kinds of compromises in such a case anyway. "purity" in policy in a democracy almost never happens.
 
Young people don't care enough about elections. Can't really blame them honestly. Everyone just appears so corrupt and wrong.

there are thousands of legislators out there and its our fault and their fault that we allowed that cloud of apathy and ignorance to settle over our voting process. Yes, many of those people are assholes and corrupt pieces of shit, but a lot of them are not, and you need to fucking vote in order to make that bad situation better.

Low information voters need to be grabbed by the scruff and given pamphlets and sources and be invited to get educated and participate.
 
Enacting meaningful changes takes a long time. There's no guarantee change will happen in a single congressperson, senator or president's term. Politicians *need* to focus time and money into elections in order to ensure that they're in office, and actually have influence, to make sure that change happens. Otherwise they lose their job and their successor potentially derails any progress that they may have made.



lol, "hitches"

I'm going to guess Bernie's getting a sweet prime time speaking slot at the DNC out of a pre-convention endorsement.
That will be interesting, since he said he si going all the way, and he can't speak at the convention while running.
It troubles me that some of you seem think dems in congress sit with their thumbs up their buts and do nothing til their next election and aren't trying to pass progressive legislation.



Slay I already beat you to that image macro

Never!!
 
I'm trying to get this story right...House Democrats jeered and booed Sanders?

Feels like we have children running our country. Neither side can claim sanity anymore.

As a former moderate Republican (guess former moderate Democrat too because you have to be hard left to be a Democraft now) I'm not really believing either side can get the job done anymore. Each side is moving too far to left and right, so much bickering, crying, whining, and no work being done.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of most of the house and senate on both sides of the aisle, replace these bickering lawyers will real business people (who aren't crazy like Trump).
 
Seems like people are completely misinterpreting his sentiments. So many of our lawmakers so caught up in the business of winning elections that they don't do their damn jobs.
Like the ones pushing presidential campaigns long after the fact they've lost?
 
I guess Democrats just shouldn't be better than Republicans and think of only re-election


If you don't think of re-election then you ignore your electorate. If you ignore your electorate then you are pretty directly disrespecting representative democracy. Saying that you want to radically change the country while glibly minimising the importance of elections is not a good look.
 
Well sure, but when you're talking to an assembled group of people that (in principle) change things for a living once they're in office after winning the election, it's hard to blame them for not seeing winning as at least a little important to their process.

The problem is when you lose elections then the other side packs the court and you can't do jack shit when you start winning.

Winning elections is a part of getting to the the goal, not the goal itself, which is what he is saying. He believes the party lines BS needs to go and it do, as it means people are just arguing from whatever side they are on regardless of whether or not it is in their interest.

Changes in demographics make it ever harder for conservatives to grab the president seat, so long as the Democrats do not lose focus on the groups that tend to vote them, those SC seats are not something we need to worry about. The Republicans do not have a strong candidate to take on the Democrats at this time.
 
Isn't that taking things too literally though? Isn't it clear that his point is that we shouldn't win for the sake of winning, but we should win for the sake of doing good? People here can be quick to find the worst possible interpretation of anything he says.

It's entirely possible that others are less willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and as such, are taking him literally. If one should win for the sake of doing good, winning is still something that you are planning and strategizing for.

Seems like people are completely misinterpreting his sentiments. So many of our lawmakers so caught up in the business of winning elections that they don't do their damn jobs. End up kowtowing to special interests so that they can get funding for their next reelection. It's completely screwed up.

Obviously you have to win elections but you should aim to win them by doing a damn good job and working for your constituents, not corporate interests. Doesn't seem hard to understand at all. The rabid Bernie hate around here is baffling.

But again, if you kowtow to special interests in a region that runs counter to the perceived aims and desires of your constituents, you will be voted out. The system requires listening to or enticing your voters in some fashion. (As Sanders would note with his stance on guns in Vermont, in relation to the general electorate.) The issue is when your voters either don't care or actively agree with the aims of a larger corporation. (Example: Laws favoring companies over labor.)

It's not like politicians and lobbyists exist in a void without voters.

Now if you feel a stronger and more informed voting body is required, rock out. But politicians don't get reelection without thinking on their voting constituents.
 
Especially since the Dems put up a white supremacist as their nominee. O wait.

No, they just nominated the only person within their party who has actually a good chance to lose against him.

It is a race the least like presidential candidate ever against the nr. 2. Oh yeah, I can feel the excitement, how you will mobilize people for that idea. More of the same. Let's do it.
 
Especially since the Dems put up Donald Trump as their nominee. O wait.

Yeah they just nominated the second most disliked nominee in history (behind Trump), Democrats doing really well with YAAAS QUEEN. A politician under federal investigation who just got verbally slammed by the FBI and is looking like she got away due to the family name.

I would agree the Republican looks worse, but the Democratic side not looking good either.
 
I'm honestly surprised some people are so upset by booing. It's just about the least extreme way I can think of demonstrating disapproval. Maybe only surpassed by passive aggressive post-it notes.
 
And then you will do what exactly, because now if you change to much you will not get re-elected and because it is all about getting elected, you have to stay in business never do too much, but never nothing.

If getting elected is everything, politics is nothing and state, people and everything else is just not important anymore.

And at this point, politics becomes little more than a sport with rampant doping.
 
Then when that change doesn't come overnight as expected, the voters that were attracted choose not to show up out of frustration two years later and thus helps cause the erasure of any progress gained in that two years.
I think that's an extreme simplification of his supporters. I would dare say most older liberals today were brought into the fold not by reading mundane policy papers but by finding issues or politicians they were passionate about and growing over time.

Sanders has brought awareness and passion to a lot of potential Democratic voters. There is the election battle and the generational war that is being fought and Bernie is doing a damn fine job at winning the latter right now.

Instead of tearing his supporters down and berating them - something ironically most people are mad at Bernie for doing with the establishment - the Democrats should be trying to learn lessons and apply them going forward.

As you say there is a real issue across the board with mid-term, state, local and non-presidential turnout. In my mind it seems like the Democrats really need to explore avenues to be proactive. Not just get on late night TV like Bill Clinton and wag the finger at the electorate or do what they recently have done and wait til they are complete minorities in power and play the "vote for the alternative" card.

Your running in a state and need youth turnout? How about broadband expansion investment to entice college kids and young professionals? Marijuana legalization? I mean there are policies out there that can get people(liberals, Bernie supporters) excited and cut across political stripes.
 
I'm honestly surprised some people are so upset by booing. It's just about the least extreme way I can think of demonstrating disapproval. Maybe only surpassed by passive aggressive post-it notes.

I'm not upset, I just feel there might've been a better way to express that disapproval that reflected better on those present.
 
I'm trying to get this story right...House Democrats jeered and booed Sanders?

Feels like we have children running our country. Neither side can claim sanity anymore.

As a formermoderate Republican (guess former moderate Democrat too because you have to be hard left to be a Democraft now) I'm not really believing either side can get the job done anymore. Each side is moving too far to left and right, so much bickering, crying, whining, and no work being done.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of most of the house and senate on both sides of the aisle, replace these bickering lawyers will real business people (who aren't crazy like Trump).
They're booing Sanders for exactly the lack of moderation you are complaining about. Sanders says it isn't about winning elections because to him it is about pushing inflexible ideology. What he sees as dems selling out to win elections is really people more moderate than his definition of purity. Barney Frank called him out on this over two decades ago. Lecturing a room full of dems trying to win seats versus extremist conservatives that it isn't about winning is fucking insulting.
 
They're booing Sanders for exactly the lack of moderation you are complaining about. Sanders says it isn't about winning elections because to him it is about pushing inflexible ideology. What he sees as dems selling out to win elections is really people more moderate than his definition of purity. Barney Frank called him out on this over two decades ago. Lecturing a room full of dems trying to win seats versus extremist conservatives that it isn't about winning is fucking insulting.

Strange that republicans stand to their ideology and still can win elections while somehow as a democrat you can not have the luxury of following your ideology, because somehow it does not work. And it is funny, even the democrats are telling that to each other. Republicans on the other hand just stand with their ideals.
 
Gotta admit I dislike how the Democrats booed Bernie during his speech. Yeah he's taking his time conceding his run but this is a bit childish.
 
Strange that republicans stand to their ideology and still can win elections while somehow as a democrat you can not have the luxury of following your ideology, because somehow it does not work. And it is funny, even the democrats are telling that to each other. Republicans on the other hand just stand with their ideals.
The GOP are steadily losing national elections now due to sticking with their ideology.
 

A wonderful campaign slogan, but a poor example. Legislatively speaking, Obama didn't enact that much change. The only biggest bills he passed were the stimulus and ACA, both when democrats held a large majority in the house and damn near a supermajority in the senate.

The rest of his acomplisments were either in foreign policy, executive orders, or in by the Supreme cour, where he appointed two justices.

Change can only happen if the President has the legislative and judicial branches in at least partially lockstep with him. Otherwise everything he or she does will be challenged, and a lot of it stopped.

Strange that republicans stand to their ideology and still can win elections while somehow as a democrat you can not have the luxury of following your ideology, because somehow it does not work. And it is funny, even the democrats are telling that to each other. Republicans on the other hand just stand with their ideals.
Sticking to their ideology has landed republicans Trump and an uncontrollable faction of the house and senate which shut down the government. The only reason it was sustainable at all is the hardliners also happen to be most consistent at voting. The democratic hardliners are usually the worst at voting. It's not a good thing, all in all.
 
Trump isn't a white supremacist. But I guess thinking that just makes it easier for some to hate him.
His refuses to disavow KKK members, overt white supremacists, and neo-nazis in his base. He spreads false and disparaging rhetoric about literally every other ethnicity. He claims Hispanics are more prone to violent crime, they're not, he posts false statistics about black people and gun crimes, he outright states that we can't trust Muslims, and he has a long history of calling into question Native American rights and recognition.

Short of actually saying white people are genetically superior to everyone else what else could he do to prove himself a white supremacist? All non-whites are the problem according to his platform, that requires the inherent belief in white supremacy.
 
A wonderful campaign slogan, but a poor example. Legislatively speaking, Obama didn't enact that much change. The only biggest bills he passed were the stimulus and ACA, both when democrats held a large majority in the house and damn near a supermajority in the senate.

Yes, do you know why. Because his own party stopped him, they feared they would not get re-elected which they were not anyway. They stopped half way because, they were so afraid of not getting re-elected that they even distanced themselves from their own president and they still did not get elected.

The had the chance, but because of everything I said, getting elected is somehow more important than actually following your ideals they blew it big time. They really achieved that they not only created the tea party, they also let down so many of the voters, that they lost during the mid terms.

The GOP are steadily losing national elections now due to sticking with their ideology.

Do they not control the Senate and the House?
 
But you just defended him......?

So? I can dislike him and still think it's disingenuous to call him something he's not. It lowers the overall intelligence of a conversation to say shit that isn't true about someone just because you don't like that person.
 
It's entirely possible that others are less willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and as such, are taking him literally. If one should win for the sake of doing good, winning is still something that you are planning and strategizing for.

Right, except he never said winning wasn't a component in accomplishing the goal of transforming america like a lot of people here are suggesting he did.

Again, it's pretty clear that his point is that we shouldn't win for the sake of winning, but we should win for the sake of doing good. He was talking about the ultimate "goal," which is distinct from planning/strategy to attain that goal and I think it's silly to suggest he thinks winning isn't a component of that strategy -- it's not that we shouldn't win, it's that winning isn't the end goal.
 
So? I can dislike him and still think it's disingenuous to call him something he's not. It lowers the overall intelligence of a conversation to say shit that isn't true about someone just because you don't like that person.

So you know nothing about anything his campaign has down in the last 6 months? hell the last 2 weeks...
 
Strange that republicans stand to their ideology and still can win elections while somehow as a democrat you can not have the luxury of following your ideology, because somehow it does not work. And it is funny, even the democrats are telling that to each other. Republicans on the other hand just stand with their ideals.
THEY FUCKING ARE. Bernie Sanders clown shoes ideas are not the ideology of the Democratic Party. He's a Fringe nut. Just because he likes to slander anyone who isn't in lockstep with his democratic socialist agenda doesn't make him right.

You are mistaking a party that still has room in the tent for different opinions and degrees of opinion as a party drowning in compromise. The dem party isn't ran by a handful of powerful contributors who require purity pledges and oaths of fealty to avoid getting primaried out of office. Sanders wished it was. He, along with the vast majority of the GOP is what is wrong with government, not moderate dems just looking to represent their constituency in a productive fashion.

Extremism has killed the political process, not pragmatic moderation.
 
So you know nothing about anything his campaign has down in the last 6 months? hell the last 2 weeks...

Not really, no. Though I've seen a lot about a star on some image that I guess makes him a nazi? I think he's a buffoon that says shit off the cuff and doesn't think before he says shit that should be more nuanced than it is. I'm quite sure he's afraid of terrorists and of illegal immigrants, but I don't think he's a white supremacist or an anti-semite. But I digress.

On topic: I think we'd be better off in this country if we had more people willing to fight for what's right instead of saying what is politically expedient in order to keep their job.
 
Extremism has killed the political process, not pragmatic moderation.

Pragmatic moderation means they moved so far to the right that a democrats from a few decades ago would be thrown out of the party because he would be labeled as a socialists. Every time the republicans went into bat shit crazy land, the democrats followed to the right and that is better now. Instead of actually drawing a line into the sand and taking a stand.

There is no left ideology anymore, 20 years ago Hillary would have been pretty much a republican candidate.

Obama at least gave the people something to believe and the prospect of change. Now even that is missing.
 
THEY FUCKING ARE. Bernie Sanders clown shoes ideas are not the ideology of the Democratic Party. He's a Fringe nut. Just because he likes to slander anyone who isn't in lockstep with his democratic socialist agenda doesn't make him right.

You are mistaking a party that still has room in the tent for different opinions and degrees of opinion as a party drowning in compromise. The dem party isn't ran by a handful of powerful contributors who require purity pledges and oaths of fealty to avoid getting primaried out of office. Sanders wished it was. He, along with the vast majority of the GOP is what is wrong with government, not moderate dems just looking to represent their constituency in a productive fashion.

Extremism has killed the political process, not pragmatic moderation.

Political extremism has existed since the beginning of civilization, just because someone has "extremist" views doesnt mean they are inherently wrong, and just because someone is a moderate doesnt mean they are inherently right. You are looking through an incredibly biased lens

I dont even think Bernie Sanders is that extreme. A universal healthcare and free college tuition is extreme all of a sudden? I didn't know following suit of what the rest of the western world is doing is considered extreme.

I dont really care that much between Bernie and Hilary, but it's laughable seeing both groups try to slander each other constantly trying to prove what? They can both have things we agree with and both have things we disagree with.
 
Not really, no. Though I've seen a lot about a star on some image that I guess makes him a nazi? I think he's a buffoon that says shit off the cuff and doesn't think before he says shit that should be more nuanced than it is. I'm quite sure he's afraid of terrorists and of illegal immigrants, but I don't think he's a white supremacist or an anti-semite. But I digress.

On topic: I think we'd be better off in this country if we had more people willing to fight for what's right instead of saying what is politically expedient in order to keep their job.

so...reasons....

got you
 
I dont even think Bernie Sanders is that extreme. A universal healthcare and free college tuition is extreme all of a sudden? I didn't know following suit of what the rest of the western world is doing is considered extreme.

Even a lot of right wing parties in Europe would support that. And this is now to extreme for the US, holy smokes Batman.
 
No, they just nominated the only person within their party who has actually a good chance to lose against him.

It is a race the least like presidential candidate ever against the nr. 2. Oh yeah, I can feel the excitement, how you will mobilize people for that idea. More of the same. Let's do it.

Politics isn't (or rather, it is, but it shouldn't be) about excitement, it's about making life better through policy. You should not be voting for president based on who excites you the most but on who can get the job done in closest alignment with your interests.

This obsession with exciting candidates is what fuels the "I'd like to have a beer with him" mentality that puts the worst qualified people into the most powerful positions.

fake edit: also, more of the same? Given Obama's current approval ratings and Hillary positioning herself as third-term-plus Obama, I think more of the same -- insofar as moving along the same progressive track -- actually appeals to quite a few Americans.
 
Democrats need to fucking relax. This was a really bad week for Hillary and the paradigm may have shifted.

Acting like the inefficient clowns they are doesn't endear them to independents.
 
If constituents reelect an official they are validating that this is what they want. Losing your seat not only removes the ability to impact legislature, but opens up the potential for irreversible damage to be done by elected officials with different priorities. Of course election is going to be a priority for politicians, particularly during election cycles. It's a method for the politician to engage with voters and reassess how they can represent those voters.

Incumbents have a 90% reelection rate. "Better the devil you know" and such. If your position tends to be relatively safe once elected, why do you never see those changes people seek. It should be obvious that election changes official's behavior and priorities. Why do you think term limits are often brought up as a congressional reform? Because people want them to focus on doing their jobs, not devoting half their time to keeping them, regardless of actual performance. In congress, you must devote time to getting donations and worrying about reelection. While holding office, yes you can enact legislature, but the act of maintaining office detracts from that ability. If an official knows their term will be ending in at a predetermined point, they can be more aggressive in legislation (see second presidential terms).

Now, why are you jumping to the conclusion of "if my candidate loses office, they other party automatically occupies it"? Could it be that elections are designed by parties to be reduced down to a binary choice, where, if you refer to my second post in this thread, it is advantageous to use the fear of "Either us or them" to force an automatic alignment. You phrase the scenario in such a manner as if there is no possibility of another politician of the same party filling the new vacancy, which is only an issue if there are no alternatives within the same party seeking the same position.

Politicians should compromise with each other. That allows the system to stably function. People should not have to compromise when they elect politicians. In engineering, system stability is indicated by degrees of freedom (DoF). In politics, DoF would be analogous to compromises made. A 0 DoF system is a dictatorship; no compromises in policy and leaders in place for decades. A 1 DoF system is a direct democracy; 2 politicians, who advocate what each side wants respectively, reach a singular, easily determined point of compromise that is acceptable to their bases. What the U.S. had now is at least a 3 DoF system; politicians are selected by committee, are voted upon by constituents, and ultimately nominated by committee. All this before they interact with an official on the other side chosen by a similar process. They do not respond directly to constituent input and lead to exponentially higher potential outcomes, that are much harder to predict, and the chances of an outcome that is optimum for constituents is greatly decreased as a result. What part of that sounds productive?
 
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