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Better Call Saul S2 |OT| The Truth Is Just A Point Of View - Mondays 10/9c

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Lijik

Member
1. I don't like how Jimmy sneaked the TV commercial behind his boss's back. If he simply would have shown him, he probably would have made some adjustments but it would have worked out all the same. Why take such a huge risk and potentially lose your job? I get he's on the outs now, but then it seemed to make little sense.

When Jimmy is shown an old Davis & Main commercial, Omar remarks they took multiple meetings to decide on just the right shade of blue for the vortex background (might be a little off). Jimmy's impatient, figured his ad would be stuck in a similar state of roundabout meetings instead of getting aired, decided to skip past that, and hoped the results would get him forgiven.

Thats how I read it, don't know if that makes it better for you or not.
 

Turin

Banned
I love how slow the show is, but nonetheless entertaining as fuck. To echo many in this thread, that hour just flies by.

Agreed. It's great to have a show that feels no need to rush anything. It might be more slow burn than any show I've seen and I probably won't mind if it never gets past the point of simmering.
 

JoeNut

Member
Damn Jimmy is so desperate to work with Kim I feel bad for him. But it would never work and Kim is right to offer the deal as she's put it. Jimmy is gonna screw this up somehow!
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
And actual MRA type once brought that up as a discussion point to say how Skyler tried to control Walt. It was a desperate gamble, sure, but the fact was that Walt had absolutely refused to discuss his reasoning. And given how close that whole family was and how distant Walt has been from that episode, it came off as forceful, but only because it absolutely needed to be for her to get Walt to talk. And given how his death would affect her life, I think it's absolutely fair for her to force Walt to speak to his reasons. It might be difficult for him, but it's not any less difficult than what he was asking her to do. "Honey, I'm gonna go die of cancer, just accept it." He can deal with some forced confrontation.

But fine, let's say the exercise itself was unfair. If Walt wants to just die without explanation, she should just respect his wishes and put up with it without a word of complaint. Whatever.

But if she's as controlling as she is, then I think the actual ending of that scene bears some relevance. Walt gives his truly heart-rending speech and... She accepts it. Tearfully, because this is NOT what she wants... But she's respecting his wishes to die without treatment. The scene that Skyler's detractors use to prove her controlling tendencies, if they have a point at all regarding that forced confrontation, refutes the notion that she can't let go, because that's exactly what she does. And if she is such a control freak, think how much more difficult it must have been for her to have done that. But she did, out of love and respect for her husband, even if she disagreed with him entirely. Doesn't that paint the scene as not just the opposite of what they describe her as, but also introducing an element of self sacrifice in her acceptance?

And in the morning, it's Walt who, completely unprompted, decides he will take the treatment, and voluntarily goes back to cooking meth.

This is getting off topic, but I genuinely feel that the detractors never had a point. Skyler was a normal woman. If she was controlling, it wasn't in any more of a way than a slight power imbalance that isn't in any way harmful that is present in virtually any marriage that is blown way out of proportion into some kind of shrieking banshee caricature that only exists in people's minds. Gilligan wrote how a person placed in Skyler's place would react pretty well, and if that's somehow inconvenient to Walter, that's too bad. Spouses aren't there to be convenient, they're supposed to loving partners. Skyler was going out of her way to save the man she loved because he wasn't saving himself and she had no idea why. At worst, she took desperate measures to try to fix a desperate situation.
Great post, always felt Skyler got way too much hate.
 
What I think is gonna happen is the spiderman 1 situation. (Raimi)

Its not Kim who will break Jimmy's heart and leave him for the kind of work he does. I think once jimmy gets in deep with the path he's chosen he'll realize he can't have Kim around him because he cares about her and wants her to stay out of harm's way.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
What I think is gonna happen is the spiderman 1 situation. (Raimi)

Its not Kim who will break Jimmy's heart and leave him for the kind of work he does. I think once jimmy gets in deep with the path he's chosen he'll realize he can't have Kim around him because he cares about her and wants her to stay out of harm's way.
That's so fucking cliché though. I hope they don't go down that path. Plus it's not really in Saul/Jimmy's character anyway.
 

Turin

Banned
That's so fucking cliché though. I hope they don't go down that path. Plus it's not really in Saul/Jimmy's character anyway.

I could see him deliberately alienating her but then again, if memory serves correctly, Saul's pretty cutthroat when we meet him in Breaking Bad. The empathetic Jimmy is basically dead. His only reason to exist in the show now is Kim.

I hope she makes it out okay.
 

eso76

Member
It's a prequel to Breaking Bad, most of it takes place several years before Breaking Bad. You may as well finish watching Breaking Bad before you start Better Call Saul, but it probably wouldn't hurt anything to start BCS now.


You're safe. Also takes place before the events of BrBa. Just a pair of scenes that serve as season openers have take place after.

Thank you.

Well, i might just finish BB anyway, at this rate it won't take longer than a couple weeks.
That is, if i actually watch S5, because i just watched S4 finale and (Breaking Bad season 4 spoilers)
contrary to my predictions, i am rather happy with the way things are looking for the
characters i care about
Jesse, Hank, Walter's family
right now. But I have this feeling
bad things are going to happen to Jesse or Hank in S5 :(

I don't want to know, of course :p
 

Moff

Member
yeah that was great, I even liked Kim's story
Odenkirk was fantastic and that montage was pure gold, so good
 

Micapo

Member
-- feel like if you're this deep into the show and you're confused at all -- rather than being intentionally intrigued -- this might not be the show for you.

-- i'm not sure distilling this episode down to "jimmy got fired and kim had an interview" is fair at all, when these are the same exact types of comments that complain about jimmy not becoming Saul fast enough ... when this is the very episode where we see the first real flashes of that character shining through on Jimmy! We have inflatable crazy air dancer! We have the crazy colorful suits! We have Jimmy lying through his teeth with Saul-patented bullshit. "Maybe a bird dropped it right into Tuco's hand?" And the Kim stuff was deep because you see that first, she definitely has something to hide from her past -- and her realization that the new boss is very likely the same as the old boss.

-- speaking of Kim -- wouldn't it be interesting if her background was similar to Jimmy's, only her response was different? Say she was related to a grifter that embarrassed her or something, and her reaction was to play things on the straight and narrow to prove that one could be both honest AND a wolf. ahem.

-- mike's daughter-in-law was more or less revealed to be manipulating him when she picked out a super expensive house ("you think it's too big?") while also acknowledging (through superb acting that the viewer has to read) that he can't really afford it as a parking attendant. Combine that with former knowledge of his son / her husband's bad cop ways, and Mike's destroyed face and spotless car ("you'd never know it was in an accident!"), and it's clear she's manipulating him. The real question for the viewer is which side of the moral divide she stands on. Is she punishing Mike for what happened to her husband? Is she just trying to do what's best for her daughter? Does she know that by putting Mike in this position that she's putting her daughter in actual danger? See, that's the better conversation.

-- i'm starting to come around on this idea: I think this last episode shows we might be getting to Saul Goodman, Criminal Lawyer faster than people think. Like, by the end of the season.

-- I do expect some sort of Slippin' Kimmy to be revealed, yes.

I like you!
This episode was fantastic and I just can't wait for my walk later today when I'll be listening to the podcast and getting more insight.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Lastly, I think no one wants another skyler situation, so maybe people are actively trying to be more empathetic than they were with her and all those thousands of threads of "Hey, I'm not sexist or anything, but isn't skyler the worst thing ever and should die because fuck that bitch" weren't for nothing. Idealistic, I know, but I hope this is the case. But I also wouldn't be surprised for people to turn on her as soon as she becomes "annoying".

Wow, I didn't even know that people could dislike Kim. She's like the most reasonable person on the show, with no real agenda other than wanting the best for everyone.

But that said, I think there's a conscious effort to not make her into the "roadblock" that everyone thought Skyler was.
 

Slacker

Member
Damn Jimmy is so desperate to work with Kim I feel bad for him. But it would never work and Kim is right to offer the deal as she's put it. Jimmy is gonna screw this up somehow!

I think Kim is struggling with the same desperation, though. She loves Jimmy despite knowing how radioactive he is, and I think this working together-but-not-together compromise she's convinced herself to try will end up hurting her in the long run.
 

Surfinn

Member
Well....Jimmy is pretty stupid. I mean, he's brilliant, but he's a moron, much like Walt. This seems like a common Vince Gilligan thing where characters are can be brilliantly talented and hyper intelligent, only to get mystified by basic common sense stuff because they are in the wrong headspace for it. Like Chuck said, Jimmy is an ends-justify-means sort of guy. Jimmy gets that there are rules that frown on this, but he doesn't get why people don't share his viewpoint of skirting around them when it can get results is better. Genuine good will, where you do stuff like give back money just because it's not yours even if you can get away with it utterly baffles him, even as he did it in season 1.

I think it's perfectly fine. Jimmy isn't a rational person who needs a well supported reason for doing things that the everyman would get. He's a conman down to his bones, and the idea of adhering to morality that, for him, has negligible negatives effect at best completely escapes him because it's not in his mental framework, even if it is in most other people's.

These are good points, and I get that's the flavor they're going with, but honestly not knowing that the company would have been pissed about him going behind their backs to essentially represent them publicly, and then being mystified when his boss gets upset about it really doesn't sit well with me. I totally get him doing it with the understanding that not only will his company be completely pissed off but he might even risk his job doing it and having a better reason for doing so, if they had gone that route. He might not fit in with the everyman, but he's smart enough to understand basic cause and effect, which is what was a huge part of the job he did throughout BB pretty much flawlessly.

Personal preference I guess, but it just felt thick to the point of out of character for me.
 

Vlad

Member
Why is Jimmy so interested in working with Kim?

It seems like Jimmy enjoys having a "partner in crime", so to speak. Sure, he liked running scams by himself, but he really enjoyed doing it with Marco at his side. He was thrilled last season at the prospect of working the Sandpiper (and it is "Sandpiper", like the bird, right? I keep seeing people in here call it "San Piper") case with his brother, and we've seen him try to partner up with Kim before.
 

IronRinn

Member
And actual MRA type once brought that up as a discussion point to say how Skyler tried to control Walt. It was a desperate gamble, sure, but the fact was that Walt had absolutely refused to discuss his reasoning. And given how close that whole family was and how distant Walt has been from that episode, it came off as forceful, but only because it absolutely needed to be for her to get Walt to talk. And given how his death would affect her life, I think it's absolutely fair for her to force Walt to speak to his reasons. It might be difficult for him, but it's not any less difficult than what he was asking her to do. "Honey, I'm gonna go die of cancer, just accept it." He can deal with some forced confrontation.

But fine, let's say the exercise itself was unfair. If Walt wants to just die without explanation, she should just respect his wishes and put up with it without a word of complaint. Whatever.

But if she's as controlling as she is, then I think the actual ending of that scene bears some relevance. Walt gives his truly heart-rending speech and... She accepts it. Tearfully, because this is NOT what she wants... But she's respecting his wishes to die without treatment. The scene that Skyler's detractors use to prove her controlling tendencies, if they have a point at all regarding that forced confrontation, refutes the notion that she can't let go, because that's exactly what she does. And if she is such a control freak, think how much more difficult it must have been for her to have done that. But she did, out of love and respect for her husband, even if she disagreed with him entirely. Doesn't that paint the scene as not just the opposite of what they describe her as, but also introducing an element of self sacrifice in her acceptance?

And in the morning, it's Walt who, completely unprompted, decides he will take the treatment, and voluntarily goes back to cooking meth.

This is getting off topic, but I genuinely feel that the detractors never had a point. Skyler was a normal woman. If she was controlling, it wasn't in any more of a way than a slight power imbalance that isn't in any way harmful that is present in virtually any marriage that is blown way out of proportion into some kind of shrieking banshee caricature that only exists in people's minds. Gilligan wrote how a person placed in Skyler's place would react pretty well, and if that's somehow inconvenient to Walter, that's too bad. Spouses aren't there to be convenient, they're supposed to loving partners. Skyler was going out of her way to save the man she loved because he wasn't saving himself and she had no idea why. At worst, she took desperate measures to try to fix a desperate situation.

I always liked Skyler. This shit, this right here, is some A grade stuff. Great fucking post.
 

Veelk

Banned
These are good points, and I get that's the flavor they're going with, but honestly not knowing that the company would have been upset about him going behind his back to essentially represent the company publicly, and then being mystified when his boss then gets upset about it really doesn't sit well with me. I totally get him doing it with the understanding that not only will his company be completely pissed off but he might even risk his job doing it and having a better reason for doing so, if they had gone that route. He might not fit in with the everyman, but he's smart enough to understand basic cause and effect, which is what was a huge part of the job he did throughout BB pretty much flawlessly.

Personal preference I guess, but it just felt thick to the point of out of character for me.

If it makes you feel better, he knows it's something that the company disapproves of. That's why he hesitated and ultimately decides to behind their back in the first place. He does understand the cause and effect, just not the why of it.

It's similar to the situation with the money in season 1. He knew that giving it back was the morally right thing to do, but had difficulty grasping why, but only because he knew that's what chuck would have done. Jimmy seems to be empathetic, but without any morals that typically result from that empathy.

So everything is a matter of outcomes. I think this is illustrated well with the boyhood flash back. He clearly loves his father very much, but he sees that he can get a profit with no chance of being caught, so he can't think of a reason to not do it. That he loves his dad and that he's hurting don't seem to create any kind of contradiction, even if he knows intellectually that he shouldn't be doing this.

So it's less about him not knowing the company would disapprove and more about him not understanding that what he did wasn't merely disadvantageous(in the long term), but also wrong. It's not just with the company that he has this confusion, he has it with Chuck and his "life isn't a game of let's make a deal" to which he replies exasperatedly that it is. He just sees the world in a particular way, and while he knows others see it differently, he doesn't understand why. But again, results are what matter, so usually he just lies his ass off, people are none the wiser, and Saul Goodman. But there was no avoiding the confrontation with Cliff, so for once he tried to present his honest viewpoint, and besides, since he was being his own lawyer now, he should be able to practice his law without the pretense, right? So why can't Cliff just look at the fantastic results and see that it's all worth it in the end? That his way is better because the results show it?

That said, Jimmy isn't a sociopath and there are limits to this. The second episode has him go out of his way to save those two dinguses from Tuco at great risk to himself and no reward. Granted, he might have been following chuck's lead there, but I doubt he'd go that far. He also seems to not like scamming the helpless, like old people. But, hey, the exceptions are what prove the rule.
 

Vlad

Member
That said, Jimmy isn't a sociopath and there are limits to this. The second episode has him go out of his way to save those two dinguses from Tuco at great risk to himself and no reward. Granted, he might have been following chuck's lead there, but I doubt he'd go that far. He also seems to not like scamming the helpless, like old people. But, hey, the exceptions are what prove the rule.

Hell, he even reimbursed Cliff for his seven thousand dollar desk.
 

Veelk

Banned
Hell, he even reimbursed Cliff for his seven thousand dollar desk.

Really? I thought that it was the property of Cliff and Main and he bought it off him, since it was clear that Cliff thought it was over the top and he just wanted Jimmy gone already.
 

Alpende

Member
I kinda felt bad for Clifford that he had to fire Jimmy and lose money that way. I loved the montage of his suits and ties, so good.
 

Arkeband

Banned
would calling that guy the wrong name really be that damning

I think it was more embarrassing on her part and made her reflect just how interested she was in the job when juxtaposed with Jimmy's idea (edit: also yeah that it was her former employer's name) - she can't even get her employer's name right. She does love Jimmy, she just knows he's unfit for the professional world, so it's tearing her in two (see the card symbolism), so she's trying some half-measure (no half measures!) in an attempt to reconcile the two lives she leads.

I expect Kim to be dead by the end of this series but that's because BB has set a high bar for "crazy shit happening" in this universe, and the show could easily have been called The Adventures of Mike and Jimmy - and both have ran into life or death situations more than once already.
 
It's probably been pointed out before, but if you Google Hinky Dinky and look at the Wikipedia article... *mind blown*

Man, love all these little details in the show.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Just watched the latest one, excellent episode. BCS is on track to become my favorite "slow show". It's already one of my main examples of how to do a slow burn right.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
People on reddit say these are $5k pens Jimmy steals from D&M:

NzacAdi.jpg

Also, here's a bit of repeated imagery from one episode to the next:

 

Brakke

Banned
I wish this show would have a bad episode just so I had something to talk about lol. Every week it's just -- yo that was delightful and good, as always.

Adored the Jimmy fashion montage.
 
When Jimmy asked Kim to join him I was so scared that she would say yes. Somehow I don't want anything bad to happen to her. I'm always hoping that their relationship just ends and nothing bad happens to her.

But now I fear that Saul will pull her into some bad things :(
 
I wish this show would have a bad episode just so I had something to talk about lol. Every week it's just -- yo that was delightful and good, as always.

Adored the Jimmy fashion montage.

I agree. It's so much easier to gripe about shows that aren't working.

I could write 10,000 words about Vinyl, but there really isn't much to say about this show other than *stupid grin plastered across face because it's so good*.
 

Vlad

Member
Really? I thought that it was the property of Cliff and Main and he bought it off him, since it was clear that Cliff thought it was over the top and he just wanted Jimmy gone already.

Well, it technically was D&M's property, but they only bought it in the first place because Jimmy requested it.
 

Veelk

Banned
Well, it technically was D&M's property, but they only bought it in the first place because Jimmy requested it.

Right, but they weren't going to let him walk out with it if he didn't give him the money. It's a transaction, not a reimbursement.
 

Vlad

Member
Right, but they weren't going to let him walk out with it if he didn't give him the money. It's a transaction, not a reimbursement.

Right, but from what Cliff said it was a way, way more expensive desk than they usually get for their staff. He even said that he didn't have a desk like that, so the point was that the firm wasted $7k on something for an employee who essentially walked out on them soon afterwards.
 

Veelk

Banned
Right, but from what Cliff said it was a way, way more expensive desk than they usually get for their staff. He even said that he didn't have a desk like that, so the point was that the firm wasted $7k on something for an employee who essentially walked out on them soon afterwards.

Right, but I got the impression that you were saying Jimmy was doing Cliff a favor, when I feel he just wanted the desk for himself. I mean, when Cliff said that, I assumed that he was saying that Jimmy was just ridiculously extravagant for no reason, but they went the extra mile for him anyway, not that he wanted a desk like that for himself. I mean, if he did, $7,000 is chump change for that firm. But if he left the desk, it's not like they lost anything on it. Hell, if Cliff wanted it, he could have just replaced his desk with the cocobolo one.

So it didn't seem like Jimmy was doing him one last favor like I thought you implied, but more just taking what he wanted out off D&M. Maybe even swindling them one last time, especially so if that earlier post was right about Jimmy having stolen a bunch of $5000 dollar pens.
 
I like how Jimmy has an Audobon Bird Caller tied to his car keys. I used to have one too.
By the way, the montage was the best yet. I didn't want it to end.
 

Bear

Member
Right, but I got the impression that you were saying Jimmy was doing Cliff a favor, when I feel he just wanted the desk for himself. I mean, when Cliff said that, I assumed that he was saying that Jimmy was just ridiculously extravagant for no reason, but they went the extra mile for him anyway, not that he wanted a desk like that for himself. I mean, if he did, $7,000 is chump change for that firm. But if he left the desk, it's not like they lost anything on it. Hell, if Cliff wanted it, he could have just replaced his desk with the cocobolo one.

So it didn't seem like Jimmy was doing him one last favor like I thought you implied, but more just taking what he wanted out off D&M. Maybe even swindling them one last time, especially so if that earlier post was right about Jimmy having stolen a bunch of $5000 dollar pens.

I can't imagine how buying a used desk at full price is a swindle. If he really wanted a cocobolo desk that badly, he could have just as easily bought a new one himself, avoided having to transport it to an entirely different city and probably saved some money to boot. There would have been cheaper, easier and better ways for him to get a nice desk. The fact that he paid C&M back in full is making a not-so-subtle point that despite being a conman at heart, Jimmy still has some remnants of a moral compass and feels guilty for what he's done.

Saying that they could have kept it completely misses the point, a firm like that could have easily afford one if Cliff actually wanted it. When Cliff points out that the cocobolo desk is more extravagant than his own, he's emphasizing that they went above and beyond to please Jimmy, even to the point of wasting money on frivolous luxuries, and their efforts were never appreciated. That's why Jimmy makes some small gestures of good will before leaving, such as offering to repay them for the desk and complimenting Cliff, even though they clearly fell on deaf ears.

The point is that he still has a heart and feels just enough remorse to try to undo a few of his wrongs but not enough to really do the "right thing" (e.g. formally resign and give up the bonus). He's taken another step towards being a sleazy, manipulative lawyer but has yet to truly embrace that identity.
 

Veelk

Banned
I can't imagine how buying a used desk at full price is a swindle. If he really wanted a cocobolo desk that badly, he could have just as easily bought a new one himself, avoided having to transport it to an entirely different city and probably saved some money to boot. There would have been cheaper, easier and better ways for him to get a nice desk. The fact that he paid C&M back in full is making a not-so-subtle point that despite being a conman at heart, Jimmy still has some remnants of a moral compass and feels guilty for what he's done.

Because he apparently took a cup full of $5000 pens with it. Assuming that redditer is correct. Hard to say.

Saying that they could have kept it completely misses the point, a firm like that could have easily afford one if Cliff actually wanted it. When Cliff points out that the cocobolo desk is more extravagant than his own, he's emphasizing that they went above and beyond to please Jimmy, even to the point of wasting money on frivolous luxuries, and their efforts were never appreciated. That's why Jimmy makes some small gestures of good will before leaving, such as offering to repay them for the desk and complimenting Cliff, even though they clearly fell on deaf ears.

The point is that he still has a heart and feels just enough remorse to try to undo a few of his wrongs but not enough to really do the "right thing" (e.g. formally resign and give up the bonus). He's taken another step towards being a sleazy, manipulative lawyer but has yet to truly embrace that identity.

I think we just see the same evidence and coming to different conclusions. Yes, Cliff went out of his way to please Jimmy, and yes, buying that desk is such a infinitely small recompense to what they've lost to Jimmy. So as a gesture of good will, that rebuying the desk is indeed a small gesture. Like, planck length small. So, I think the idea that this was a "Let me do you one small solid" is overly generous. You know what might have cost him less and have cliff appreciated even more than a measly 7K? An apology, probably. The cocobolo desk is literally meaningless to him and indeed Cliff doesn't give a shit, because why would he? And Jimmy benefits more from having it than Cliff from not. Not because he can't buy one, but he gets attached to things he likes. That cocobolo desk is the one thing he choose in his time at D&M, it feels much more reasonable that he just wanted to keep the desk because he liked it.
 
holy crap they actually matched his voice mail in this episode when he made the new one compared to season 1's british accent when you call his number lol

505-842-5662
 
This show is so phenomenal. Seriously. I for one never thought a spinoff would turn out to be so fucking delightful. Everything is on point, the cast, the dialogue, the writing, the cinematography, the music, etc etc.
 
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