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[Kyzer]

You can see the moment where Chuck mentally blocks out Jimmy's pain because Chuck got the authority back.

Also: I did not think that my opinion of Harry Hamlin could go lower, but it did. He clearly was not okay with this plan, and yet goes along with it because it is what Chuck wants. Guy is a fucking lawyer and he goes along with a revenge plan? And bullshit if Chuck tries to give Jimmy a speech about how he's doing this for Jimmy's own good. This is Chuck "putting Jimmy in his place", pure and simple. He's probably planning to drop all charges if Jimmy agrees to be under his supervision or something.

well yeah harry is like an anti-villain. hes a villain of the show but because he wants to do everything by the books, similar to chuck. he clearly would not like what jimmy did, the only reason he hesitated is because he cares about the business and thinks about the implications. he definitely wants justice but he also wants HHM to win

Yeah and I think that's where he came to the realization that his brother didn't just tape him, but played him. He made the connection that his brother magically "got better" and didn't need to live in his tin foil palace right after the incident. The technique he was using led to the eureka moment.

I like how he was using the tape technique his brother taught him in that one scene where he was taking off the painting tape from the wall. This show's attention to the little things is so good.

holy shit he taped him

this show

theres levels

 

[Lord of Castamere]

Wow huge props to Kelly. I thought the way they revealed him in this episode was perfect, and to think that Gilligan was actually against that is insane to me.

Yep. Great scene. You jump from rhe awkawrd humor of Jimmy, to the slow build tension of Gus. It felt like a horror movie. Waiting for the moment Gus would appear.

 

[Veelk]

You can see the moment where Chuck mentally blocks out Jimmy's pain because Chuck got the authority back.

Also: I did not think that my opinion of Harry Hamlin could go lower, but it did. He clearly was not okay with this plan, and yet goes along with it because it is what Chuck wants. Guy is a fucking lawyer and he goes along with a revenge plan? And bullshit if Chuck tries to give Jimmy a speech about how he's doing this for Jimmy's own good. This is Chuck "putting Jimmy in his place", pure and simple. He's probably planning to drop all charges if Jimmy agrees to be under his supervision or something.

Why are people so convinced Chuck is a secret hypocrite? Literally all his reasoning and history points to him abiding by the law with an almost religious dedication. Remember, he had the opportunity to extort Jimmy into quitting being a lawyer, but he refused, establishing that if he was gonna win he wanted to win by being on the right side of the law. He wanted to win righteously.

Remember, this is a guy who endured extra agony by going out into the sun and putting money in place of his neighbors paper. When the money blew away, he went and caught it again to make sure the person got it. He would not simply take the paper, despite no one seeing him do it and it being a crime so petty that no one would be likely to actually care.

Chuck is a modern Knight Templar archetype, where he believes no one is above the law and he doesn't make exceptions even in regards to family members. And that's not to say that his personal grudge against Jimmy for his various scams doesn't bleed into it either. It totally does. But that's what makes it compelling. Stop turning him into a cartoon villain.

It's not unlikely that Chuck genuinely is affronted by the fact that his brother committed a felony against him and sees it as his ethical duty to bring him to justice since he is an officer of the court.

Not to mention that if the tables we're reversed, I'm guessing most people would be applauding Jimmy for "Putting Chuck in his place". People act as if Chuck doesn't have the right to be pissed for what Jimmy did to him. If you don't want to like Chuck, fine, but let's stop feigning offense like any normal person wouldn't want retribution for being humiliated like he was.

 

[TTOOLL]

Great episode. I keep enjoying it more and more. It's slow, but that's why it's amazing. We have time to be amazed by those incredible shots all the fucking time!


Also, fuck Chuck!

 

[Badlucktroll]

I bet that Mike and Gus get Jimmy out of this pickle.

 

[Chumley]

Why are people so convinced Chuck is a secret hypocrite? Literally all his reasoning and history points to him abiding by the law with an almost religious dedication. Remember, he had the opportunity to extort Jimmy into quitting being a lawyer, but he refused, establishing that if he was gonna win he wanted to win by being on the right side of the law. He wanted to win righteously.

Remember, this is a guy who endured extra agony by going out into the sun and putting money in place of his neighbors paper. When the money blew away, he went and caught it again to make sure the person got it. He would not simply take the paper, despite no one seeing him do it and it being a crime so petty that no one would be likely to actually care.

Chuck is a modern Knight Templar archetype, where he believes no one is above the law and he doesn't make exceptions even in regards to family members. And that's not to say that his personal grudge against Jimmy for his various scams doesn't bleed into it either. It totally does. But that's what makes it compelling. Stop turning him into a cartoon villain.

It's not unlikely that Chuck genuinely is affronted by the fact that his brother committed a felony against him and sees it as his ethical duty to bring him to justice since he is an officer of the court.

Not to mention that if the tables we're reversed, I'm guessing most people would be applauding Jimmy for "Putting Chuck in his place". People act as if Chuck doesn't have the right to be pissed for what Jimmy did to him. If you don't want to like Chuck, fine, but let's stop feigning offense like any normal person wouldn't want retribution for being humiliated like he was.

Feigning offense? Dude, Chuck went out of his way to fuck Kim out of a client just to get at Jimmy. That's even worse than fucking with Jimmy. Jimmy had every moral right to do what he did in response, not to mention with how much he's helped Chuck with his illness over the years. Chuck would be fucking dead if not for Jimmy helping him, and Jimmy had no reason to confess to him other than out of just being a decent person. And then Chuck uses that to try and put him in prison, because he's a soulless and petty fuck. It's not about the law at all, I don't get how you're still missing that.

 

[Servbot24]

Damn that was a good episode.

I will say I think Mike is probably the weak link thus far though. I love the slow pace for Saul and Kim because you learn things about them through that. You don't really learn anything from watching Mike investigate, it just again confirms that yeah, he's still pretty good at investigating.

 

[rekameohs]

Feigning offense? Dude, Chuck went out of his way to fuck Kim out of a client just to get at Jimmy. That's even worse than fucking with Jimmy. Jimmy had every moral right to do what he did in response, not to mention with how much he's helped Chuck with his illness over the years. Chuck would be fucking dead if not for Jimmy helping him, and Jimmy had no reason to confess to him other than out of just being a decent person. And then Chuck uses that to try and put him in prison, because he's a soulless and petty fuck. It's not about the law at all, I don't get how you're still missing that.

I think Chuck's flaws are a lot like Walter White's. He justifies his actions through a morally good reason (Walt's doing it for his family, Chuck's doing it to uphold the sanctity of the law), and it is definitely true to some extent, but they're hiding what's truly driving them, even from themselves (Walt's power fantasy and Chuck's vindictiveness). Jimmy got some similar flaws himself. And we the audience hate Chuck so much more because his Moby Dick is our main protagonist. I mean, they're both great characters. But I hate him, too!

 

[lamaroo]

All good points

*Clears throat*

FUCK CHUCK

 

[Chumley]

I think Chuck's flaws are a lot like Walter White's. He justifies his actions through a morally good reason (Walt's doing it for his family, Chuck's doing it to uphold the sanctity of the law), and it is definitely true to some extent, but they're hiding what's truly driving them, even from themselves (Walt's power fantasy and Chuck's vindictiveness). Jimmy got some similar flaws himself. And we the audience hate Chuck so much more because his Moby Dick is our main protagonist. I mean, they're both great characters. But I hate him, too!

I don't hate Chuck because Jimmy is the protagonist, I hate him because what he does is despicable and cowardly no matter who he's doing it to. "The sanctity of the law" means nothing to me when the law in the real world screws people over every single day. What matters is being a good person, and he's far from that.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Brilliant episode and continues to be the best show of the last few years imo. Man I really am not looking forward to the almost inevitable shit storm Kim is going to get caught up in. She's such a lovable character. Chuck really played Jimmy. He's such a prick. Jimmy looked so broken in that last shot. I really feel for the guy.

I'm still catching up (S2E9), but that's something that's surprised me about this show as opposed to Breaking Bad. In BB, I can watch Walter go down the rabbit hole without blinking, perhaps because even early on that feeling that he wants this and is that person was there.

With BCS, it's painful to watch Jimmy do what he does, because Saul Goodman was his breaking point. Yes, he is very much to blame at the heart of everything, but unlike Walter he had the opportunities robbed and taken from him when he tried to redeem himself after Chuck bails him out. If Chuck didn't keep him in the mail room or sabotage those rising moments, than Slippen Jimmy wouldn't have come to head and lead him back to Cicero, which gave him the excuse on running the marks to keep his long neglected friend close at heart.

And seeing what it does to Kim who also tries to do the right thing and would've been the positive force to keep Jimmy's head up if it weren't for Chuck thus far is absolutely heart breaking to where I've had to pause or just take a break for the day when Jimmy does his next [re]action that will send them spiraling down further.

Honestly, Chuck seems to be a Walter White Lite. Says and acts like he's doing the right thing for the honorable reasons, with a condition to lean on to boot, but in reality it's all driven by spite forged from a wounded ego (Jimmy being likely the family favorite to where Chuck's own wife was more taken by his [Jims] company) that will likely come out in a very ugly way. Chuck's look right there reminds me of Walter's solidifying look in the overdose scene.

 

[danm999]

Chuck does everything he can to sabotage and keep people down, and then uses their desperation as justification for the initial sabotage.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Chuck does everything he can to sabotage and keep people down, and then uses their desperation as justification for the initial sabotage.

Harry coming in really highlighted how obsessed Chuck has become. Harry's trying to get him to pump the brakes while Chuck is going on about "...officers of the court!" Nah, man. You just got swindled by Slippin' Jimmy and can't stand to lose.

 

[Oathbreaker]

Fuck you chuck! Fuck you! I think the only pesron that has the ability to takes down this piece of shit, is GUS.
And the episode was so damn good! Well done Vince.

Edit: You know, I really think that the name for chuck has been chosen so wisely. It's so fit with the F word. Gilligan you fucking genius!

 

[MGrant]

One thing's for sure: Chuck's not going to get out of this series with a shred of his former self left. I'm not sure Vince will outright kill him, but whatever happens is going to probably be a bridge too far, no matter how much we like Jimmy. Gonna be hard to watch.

 

[harriet the spy]

One thing's for sure: Chuck's not going to get out of this series with a shred of his former self left. I'm not sure Vince will outright kill him, but whatever happens is going to probably be a bridge too far, no matter how much we like Jimmy. Gonna be hard to watch.

I'm more worried about the inevitable Kim Jimmy fallout. I really like her character.

 

[rekameohs]

Is calling Howard Hamlin "Harry" a running joke or something? That's three times this page. I mean, I liked Mad Men, too, but still.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Is calling Howard Hamlin "Harry" a running joke or something? That's three times this page. I mean, I liked Mad Men, too, but still.

Hahah...uh yeah. Totally a joke and not me being a fool.

 

[Compsiox]

Fuck you chuck! Fuck you! I think the only pesron that has the ability to takes down this piece of shit, is GUS.
And the episode was so damn good! Well done Vince.

Edit: You know, I really think that the name for chuck has been chosen so wisely. It's so fit with the F word. Gilligan you fucking genius!

Chuck can't get "taken care of". No matter what happens to him it will seem like Jimmy did it.

 

[minor effort]

I think Chuck's flaws are a lot like Walter White's. He justifies his actions through a morally good reason (Walt's doing it for his family, Chuck's doing it to uphold the sanctity of the law), and it is definitely true to some extent, but they're hiding what's truly driving them, even from themselves (Walt's power fantasy and Chuck's vindictiveness). Jimmy got some similar flaws himself. And we the audience hate Chuck so much more because his Moby Dick is our main protagonist. I mean, they're both great characters. But I hate him, too!

I think for Jimmy it's his indulgent side. As Walter finally admitted in the finale, he enjoyed his criminal enterprise and that satisfaction drove him. Jimmy aspires to be an upstanding, ethical lawyer for those he seeks the approval of (Kim, Chuck), but he lives for his grifter side and he can't help but indulge it. He likes being a flashy ambulance chaser and he likes running petty scams and he likes operating outside of the rules.

 

[Veelk]

Feigning offense? Dude, Chuck went out of his way to fuck Kim out of a client just to get at Jimmy. That's even worse than fucking with Jimmy. Jimmy had every moral right to do what he did in response, not to mention with how much he's helped Chuck with his illness over the years. Chuck would be fucking dead if not for Jimmy helping him, and Jimmy had no reason to confess to him other than out of just being a decent person. And then Chuck uses that to try and put him in prison, because he's a soulless and petty fuck. It's not about the law at all, I don't get how you're still missing that.

Okay, in your case, maybe you're genuinely offended, but...well, that has implications.. Right now, you're saying that the proportional response to petty spite is defrauding an innocent third party. If you feel that's a morally measured response, then...well, I certainly hope I never see you on a jury.

The basic fact is this: whenever Chuck is going to be involved with an action Jimmy takes, he's going to try extra hard to do whatever he's doing because he wants to move against Jimmy. You're right about that much.

But lets not pretend this isn't something he was likely to do anyway. Lawyers fight like dogs to get good clients, and Mesa Verde is an amazing one. Howard specifically came to Chuck because he is the best chance he had at making him stay. He also implied that Jimmy and Kim were partnered to motivate him extra, but even before he mentioned that, he was rearing up in a "What the fu...why are we losing Mesa fucking Verde to a frikken solo practioner?!" kind of way. And in the end, lets remember that the moral thing lawyers are supposed to do is let the client in question decide who would serve them best. All that actually happened is that Chuck presented the best argument to Mesa Verde and they decided that HHM was the best agency to accommodate their needs. The worst thing you can say about this situation is that Chuck's motivation was tainted with bias, but he otherwise just did what literally any lawyer, any business of any kind, would do: present to the client why they are the best choice for them.

And keep in mind that spite alone isn't whats motivating him. Chuck is convinced that Jimmy is incapable of handling any kind of high profile client because his scams. The reason he doesn't want Jimmy as a lawyer is because his ambulance chasing will ultimately hurt the clients he, as a lawyer, is supposed to help.

And guess what Jimmy did? He defrauded Mesa Verde. And harmed HHM as a company (which you might not care about because Chuck and Howard work there, but so do a bunch of innocent, normal lawyers, so he's hurting them as well). Every time Chuck is asked about why Jimmy can't be a lawyer, he consistently grounds his arguments that the client could be hurt by him. And very often, that's exactly what happens.

 

[rekameohs]

I think for Jimmy it's his indulgent side. As Walter finally admitted in the finale, he enjoyed his criminal enterprise and that satisfaction drove him. Jimmy aspires to be an upstanding, ethical lawyer for those he seeks the approval of (Kim, Chuck), but he lives for his grifter side and he can't help but indulge it. He likes being a flashy ambulance chaser and he likes running petty scams and he likes operating outside of the rules.

What's going to be interesting is how he goes from that style, and generally conning the guilty, so to speak (like the guy that thought he scammed a Rolex or Ken, who thought he scammed them out of money) to casually tossing things out like murdering his own client in Badger.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Even if this show was just about Mike being Mike I'd be so down. The music composition with his scenario is so good. It feels like its built off of, and made better from Breaking Bad. There's a wonderful seedy noir sense to his scenario. More so than the last seasons.

 

[harriet the spy]

Even if this show was just about Mike being Mike I'd be so down. The music composition with his scenario is so good. It feels like its built off of, and made better from Breaking Bad. There's a wonderful seedy noir sense to his scenario. More so than the last seasons.

That badbadnotgood song was dope

 

[danm999]

But lets not pretend this isn't something he was likely to do anyway. Lawyers fight like dogs to get good clients, and Mesa Verde is an amazing one. Howard specifically came to Chuck because he is the best chance he had at making him stay. He also implied that Jimmy and Kim were partnered to motivate him extra, but even before he mentioned that, he was rearing up in a "What the fu...why are we losing Mesa fucking Verde to a frikken solo practioner?!" kind of way. And in the end, lets remember that the moral thing lawyers are supposed to do is let the client in question decide who would serve them best. All that actually happened is that Chuck presented the best argument to Mesa Verde and they decided that HHM was the best agency to accommodate their needs. The worst thing you can say about this situation is that Chuck's motivation was tainted with bias, but he otherwise just did what literally any lawyer, any business of any kind, would do: present to the client why they are the best choice for them.

You can't really pursue the "he acted like any lawyer would, it's just business" line with Chuck when the dude sat for years like a hermit in his tinfoil cell totally unconcerned with financial affairs and his firm's bottom line and only reared his head to hurt Jimmy.

You're completely divorcing his actions from their context. Chuck went after that client to settle a personal vendetta by proxy. That makes him a pretty awful person.

 

[Jay Shadow]

Edit: You know, I really think that the name for chuck has been chosen so wisely. It's so fit with the F word. Gilligan you fucking genius!

He was not meant to be an antagonist when the series started.

 

[danm999]

One thing's for sure: Chuck's not going to get out of this series with a shred of his former self left. I'm not sure Vince will outright kill him, but whatever happens is going to probably be a bridge too far, no matter how much we like Jimmy. Gonna be hard to watch.

Chuck has effectively become what he accused Jimmy of aspiring to be in the first season; a monkey with a bazooka. The law is too dangerous to be taken lightly, he told him, too powerful a tool.

But who has used the law as a weapon to harm others? It's not Jimmy, when he wants to get over on someone he tends to use an extralegal option. It's Chuck who uses the law to humiliate, intimidate, to extort, to trap, etc. But since he pays lip service to "respecting" the law, it's ok.

 

[BlueTsunami]

That badbadnotgood song was dope

That whole sequence had me transfixed. The use of time lapse was absolutely on point. Dedication to how detail oriented his character truly is. Truly one of the more brilliant scenes of this series.

 

[Fuu]

holy shit @ this episode. This show is always like a fancy dinner.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

.

Damn, sucks. Though I will watch the shit out of an HBO Jim Jones docudrama.

 

[Veelk]

You can't really pursue the "he acted like any lawyer would, it's just business" line with Chuck when the dude sat for years like a hermit in his tinfoil cell totally unconcerned with financial affairs and his firm's bottom line and only reared his head to hurt Jimmy.

You're completely divorcing his actions from their context. Chuck went after that client to settle a personal vendetta by proxy. That makes him a pretty awful person.

I'm not saying it's 'just business'. I'm saying that it's petty spite AND business AND legitimate concern for well being of the client. The richness of the characters from this show comes from having layers to their motivations. It's not just one thing, it's ALL of them. That's why I think trying to reduce Chuck to a one note 'awful person' is such a disrespectful regard of what the show is doing with it's narrative. The brilliance of it is that it's too complex to just put in a box labeled "good person" and "awful person".

And in any case, you're not entirely correct. Chuck didn't take any cases, but he followed the fuck out of current events and stayed on top to the best of his ability while being a hermit. Even in the first season, he talked about how he was never going to truly leave HHM.

Furthermore, if you want to account for full context, then lets not forget that Chuck didn't just take Mesa Verde and bailed out. If this was about just Jimmy, after he got Mesa Verde away from him, he'd have no reason to work their case. But he did. Hours upon hours, using dated equipment, to make sure that they got the best treatment possible. What, is Chuck providing the best service he can to his clients part of his spite for Jimmy too? No, it's him taking personal pride in being a kickass lawyer.

If you want to fully contextualize Chuck's character, you can't ignore the fact that he has other aspects beyond "fuck jimmy".

 

[CharminUltra]

Better Fuck Chuck

 

[Chumley]

I'm not saying it's 'just business'. I'm saying that it's petty spite AND business AND legitimate concern for well being of the client. The richness of the characters from this show comes from having layers to their motivations. It's not just one thing, it's ALL of them. That's why I think trying to reduce Chuck to a one note 'awful person' is such a disrespectful regard of what the show is doing with it's narrative. The brilliance of it is that it's too complex to just put in a box labeled "good person" and "awful person".

Vince Gilligan himself said he was driven entirely by spite when he did that, so "partially legitimate concern" is a bunk argument.

Nothing about Chuck's actions ever since Season 2 was motivated at all by a concern for the law, or concern for his clients. Nothing. The writing has shown us that Chuck understands and cares for clients, and understands the law backwards and forwards, yes - but simply through McKean's performance it's always been clear that the underlying thing motivating him to take action has been a deep resentment of Jimmy. In that one way he's even more simplistic than Walt. Walt practically had multiple personalities and was almost bipolar at times, but Chuck is basically a lazy fuck unless he feels like he has to punish Jimmy. The only reason he even keeps breathing is out of hatred for his brother.

He's never shown a hint of emotion about anything other than when he feels slighted by his brother. In fact, the most recent episode is basically the only time he was ever even a little bit shook at Jimmy being upset, and it was only because Jimmy expressed how upset he was in a way he didn't predict.

You keep saying that people aren't appreciating the writing by not taking into account all of his other potential reasons for doing what he does, but then you divorce the context of his actions and talk about them strictly regarding how legal they are. That's not how this all works. That's not how the character building has worked over the course of the 3 seasons, and you're being willfully obtuse by even comparing him to Walt. All of the flashback scenes, all of the intimate scenes we've had with Chuck have tried to illustrate that he's driven by resentment. Walt was driven by family, ego, and rage at the entire world. This isn't to say that Walt is multi-faceted and Chuck isn't, just that Chuck is a multi-faceted person who was overtaken by a singular purpose.

 

[Kyzer]

Why are people so convinced Chuck is a secret hypocrite? Literally all his reasoning and history points to him abiding by the law with an almost religious dedication. Remember, he had the opportunity to extort Jimmy into quitting being a lawyer, but he refused, establishing that if he was gonna win he wanted to win by being on the right side of the law. He wanted to win righteously.

Remember, this is a guy who endured extra agony by going out into the sun and putting money in place of his neighbors paper. When the money blew away, he went and caught it again to make sure the person got it. He would not simply take the paper, despite no one seeing him do it and it being a crime so petty that no one would be likely to actually care.

Chuck is a modern Knight Templar archetype, where he believes no one is above the law and he doesn't make exceptions even in regards to family members. And that's not to say that his personal grudge against Jimmy for his various scams doesn't bleed into it either. It totally does. But that's what makes it compelling. Stop turning him into a cartoon villain.

It's not unlikely that Chuck genuinely is affronted by the fact that his brother committed a felony against him and sees it as his ethical duty to bring him to justice since he is an officer of the court.

Not to mention that if the tables we're reversed, I'm guessing most people would be applauding Jimmy for "Putting Chuck in his place". People act as if Chuck doesn't have the right to be pissed for what Jimmy did to him. If you don't want to like Chuck, fine, but let's stop feigning offense like any normal person wouldn't want retribution for being humiliated like he was.

Their mother died and she loved Jimmy more and when Jimmy came into the room Chuck didnt tell him that their mom was calling for him. Thats why we all know hes no saint and has major grudge issues, and also why we love to hate him

 

[danm999]

I'm not saying it's 'just business'. I'm saying that it's petty spite AND business AND legitimate concern for well being of the client. The richness of the characters from this show comes from having layers to their motivations. It's not just one thing, it's ALL of them. That's why I think trying to reduce Chuck to a one note 'awful person' is such a disrespectful regard of what the show is doing with it's narrative. The brilliance of it is that it's too complex to just put in a box labeled "good person" and "awful person".

And in any case, you're not entirely correct. Chuck didn't take any cases, but he followed the fuck out of current events and stayed on top to the best of his ability while being a hermit. Even in the first season, he talked about how he was never going to truly leave HHM.

Furthermore, if you want to account for full context, then lets not forget that Chuck didn't just take Mesa Verde and bailed out. If this was about just Jimmy, after he got Mesa Verde away from him, he'd have no reason to work their case. But he did. Hours upon hours, using dated equipment, to make sure that they got the best treatment possible. What, is Chuck providing the best service he can to his clients part of his spite for Jimmy too? No, it's him taking personal pride in being a kickass lawyer.

If you want to fully contextualize Chuck's character, you can't ignore the fact that he has other aspects beyond "fuck jimmy".

It's just spite though. Taking Mesa Verde on himself is purely to twist the knife. It's not about any concern for the client or his business.

I mean look at his actions.

Once he loses the client does he make any attempt to get them back? Does he make any attempt to get another client to cover his firms lost revenue? Does he do anything to remotely suggest he cares about business or money?

Fuck no. In fact he defaults immediately to his long con to entrap Jimmy. A long con by the way which involves the sole active partner of the firm wasting his time sneaking around like a burglar, spending exorbitant amounts on 24 hour private security, and sending a low level employee into a legal quagmire over confidentiality that could cause the firm all sorts of headaches.

These aren't the actions of someone who cares about their business or about frugality or some specific client, they're the actions of someone who wants revenge.

 

[Veelk]

Vince Gilligan himself said he was driven entirely by spite when he did that, so "partially legitimate concern" is a bunk argument.

Even if he does, there's nothing in the show that confirms it as the sole motive, so it doesn't matter. As long as there is sustained evidence of Chuck having different aspects, it's a valid interpretation with plenty of supporting evidence.

Nothing about Chuck's actions ever since Season 2 was motivated at all by a concern for the law, or concern for his clients. Nothing. The writing has shown us that Chuck understands and cares for clients, and understands the law backwards and forwards, yes - but simply through McKean's performance it's always been clear that the underlying thing motivating him to take action has been a deep resentment of Jimmy. In that one way he's even more simplistic than Walt. Walt practically had multiple personalities and was almost bipolar at times, but Chuck is basically a lazy fuck unless he feels like he has to punish Jimmy. The only reason he even keeps breathing is out of hatred for his brother.

I can't force you to interpret Chuck's actions as more dimensional if you don't want them to be. You don't believe him when he says he's trying to do his best by the clients. You don't believe him when he does do his best by the clients. Well, what can he do then? As long as he and Jimmy are at odds, you're free to pretend that no matter what his history and his actions are, he's always solely just doing it to fuck Jimmy over, no matter how small or ineffective that action is. Hell, even when he tangibly does help Jimmy, like when he helped Jimmy avoid jail time for shitting in a car, you want to pretend he's just been his personal boogie man whose out to ruin his life to the highest degree imagineable, and is apparently responsible for every single sin he commits.

So what in your point of view can count as even a hypothetical counterpoint then? How can Chuck demonstrate to you that he legitimately believes what he says he believes and wants to be an ethical lawyers, when any ethical lawyers would be doing the same thing he's doing now (making sure Jimmy is brought to justice for his actions)? Because no ethical lawyers would let Jimmy get away with what he's doing if they can help it.

Their mother died and she loved Jimmy more and when Jimmy came into the room Chuck didnt tell him that their mom was calling for him. Thats why we all know hes no saint and has major grudge issues, and also why we love to hate him

Who ever said he was a saint?

What I'm asking is. why does he need to be? Why does he have to be a saint in order to do what any ethical lawyer would do, which is to bring Jimmy to justice for his actual, legitimate crimes?

 

[Chumley]

What I'm asking is. why does he need to be? Why does he have to be a saint in order to do what any ethical lawyer would do, which is to bring Jimmy to justice for his actual, legitimate crimes?

An ethical lawyer does not manipulate a family member into situations they want them to be in so that they get to slam the full power of the law on them. An ethical lawyer doesn't wield the law to suit his own purposes like Chuck does.

Someone else can probably do better than I can on this madness but calling Chuck an ethical lawyer is... something else. Man.

Even if he does, there's nothing in the show that confirms it as the sole motive, so it doesn't matter. As long as there is sustained evidence of Chuck having different aspects, it's a valid interpretation with plenty of supporting evidence.

So now you're being willfully obtuse, or you just weren't paying attention. And you're talking about the show like we're in a court, which is just creepy. I'm honestly baffled that you're even making these posts now that Gilligan and Gould have basically gone on record on the podcast saying Chuck is motivated entirely by resentment, but whatever.

 

[Veelk]

An ethical lawyer does not manipulate a family member into situations they want them to be in so that they get to slam the full power of the law on them. An ethical lawyer doesn't wield the law to suit his own purposes like Chuck does.

Someone else can probably do better than I can on this madness but calling Chuck an ethical lawyer is... something else. Man.

So, you're saying an ethical lawyer would allow Jimmy to get away with fraud?

I mean, again, layers of motivation. I'm not disagreeing that Chuck derives satisfaction from seeing his schemes accomplish their ends and enjoys exercising his power as an officer of the law, as well as the fact that he has it in for Jimmy in particular.

But no matter how you parse it, what Jimmy is doing is wrong, and you keep wanting to place the blame of this on Chuck like he's the evil one because he wants to see Jimmy punished for committing a felony, something you've argued he's entitled to because his brother is a meanie. Even accounting for the personal hatred, that's kinda backwards.

So now you're being willfully obtuse, or you just weren't paying attention. And you're talking about the show like we're in a court, which is just creepy. I'm honestly baffled that you're even making these posts now that Gilligan and Gould have basically gone on record on the podcast saying Chuck is motivated entirely by resentment, but whatever.

I'm being obtuse because I mention that Chuck has other aspects, often referring to specific incidents to support my arguments? Compared to your "But dude, Chuck is just such a diiiiick" arguments? I'm engaging you on the claims that you're making. This isn't me being in court, this is me being on a discussion board, discussing the show, with you. I'm discussing how wrong I think you are.

And as for Gilligan and Gould, I'd first like to see that quote myself, but even if you're entirely correct, you're also talking to a pro-death of the author reader. The author's interpretation of his own work is interesting trivia, but it's the show that matters, not what the creators say about it. If they wanted Chuck to be a one dimensional character, they shouldn't have written all the other dimensions for him.

 

[The JT]

Great start to the season. Not feeling Mike plotline. Boring for me and too much teasing Gus. Aside from that everythings great. And fuck Chuck

 

[Chumley]

I'm being obtuse because I mention that Chuck has other aspects, often referring to specific incidents to support my arguments? Compared to your "But dude, Chuck is just such a diiiiick" arguments? I'm engaging you on the claims that you're making. This isn't me being in court, this is me being on a discussion board, discussing the show. I'm discussing how wrong I think you are.

And as for Gilligan and Gould, I'd first like to see that quote myself, but even if you're entirely correct, you're also talking to a pro-death of the author reader. The author's interpretation of his own work is interesting trivia, but it's the show that matters, not what the creators say about it. If they wanted Chuck to be a one dimensional character, they shouldn't have written all the other dimensions for him.

The way you perceive and understand character development is truly bizarre. Just because the show has shown us Chuck doing things, doesn't mean all of those things are equal measurements of him as a person. Moments like the dinner scene with his ex-wife, moments like his mother dying and calling out for Jimmy, moments like Chuck recording his brother at the expense of everything else. Those matter more to understanding who he is than scenes of him talking about clients, or how much he likes the law. The law is his practice, his obsession, but it's not a human being. The way he treats other human beings (in this case, his brother), is what exposes who he is.

He's not a one dimensional character just because he's driven by resentment. I don't even know how to parse your thinking there, either. No one is discounting that he cares about the law and all that shit, but anyone with their own two eyes can see that he's not spurred into action by the law.

 

[danm999]

What Chuck did to Ernesto with his little pantomime is not even in the same galaxy as ethical to be honest. He's down on Slipping Jimmy's level for sure.

 

[rekameohs]

If they wanted Chuck to be a one dimensional character, they shouldn't have written all the other dimensions for him.

Oh, come on. That is not at all what the argument is.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

No one is saying Chuck is one-dimensional. We're saying he's an despicable asshole and that we're right to hate him and that you're weird for so staunchly defending him.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

god this episode was devastating.

 

[danm999]

To bring it back to Breaking Bad, Walter was purely motivated by pride. You can argue he did what he did for money to fight his cancer, or so his family wouldn't be destitute with debt when he died, but you have to ignore how he refused Gretchen and Elliot's money early on in the show, or how he kept at it after he made millions and his cancer was in remission. Because his sole motivation was pride.

That however, does not make him a one dimensional character.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Why are people so convinced Chuck is a secret hypocrite?

Because he is, dude.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

*throws 2 cents in*

I mean Chuck is being an ass but Jimmy is a fucking con artist up and down. He broke the law. Chuck should just drop it because he's obviously being fueled by resentment that Jimmy always gets away with it (hecantkeepgettingawaywithit.gif) but if someone made you look like a fool on a big account that you worked hard on. You'd want to see them fucked over too. Jimmy stole and altered court documents to make Chuck and the firm look incompetent. Nobody has clean hands on this one.

 

[Veelk]

The way you perceive and understand character development is truly bizarre. Just because the show has shown us Chuck doing things, doesn't mean all of those things are equal measurements of him as a person. Moments like the dinner scene with his ex-wife, moments like his mother dying and calling out for Jimmy, moments like Chuck recording his brother at the expense of everything else. Those matter more to understanding who he is than scenes of him talking about clients, or how much he likes the law. The law is his practice, his obsession, but it's not a human being. The way he treats other human beings (in this case, his brother), is what exposes who he is.

He's not a one dimensional character just because he's driven by resentment. I don't even know how to parse your thinking there, either. No one is discounting that he cares about the law and all that shit, but anyone with their own two eyes can see that he's not spurred into action by the law.

The way you're describing him does make him a one dimensional character. Just a spiteful little gremlim for who is out to ruin his brother's life.

And the dumb thing is that I don't disagree with you. He does treat people like crap. He's rude to Ernie without even recognizing it, he's patronizing to Kim without seeing it, he has insecurities with his wife.

But his view on the law is also important because the fact that he places such importance on it is an insight into why he is the way he is. It's very much informs us on his character because it's what he deems important.

And I think one dividing difference between us is that you look at all this and try to judge him as a (moral) person. I don't disagree with the idea that he's not a good person. I just also don't care. I'm judging him in his strength as a narrative character. And my argument is that you're judgement of him in terms of his morality is making you blind to aspects of him as a character. He's an asshole, but he's got nuance and depth. The latter part of that is way more important than the former.

That's why I say you're wrong. You came to the conclusion that he's an asshole...and that's not a sentiment I disagree with.... but you're letting that conclusion dismiss the subtleties of his character, instead caricaturizing him into something he's not. Since he does shitty things, every aspect of him must be also shitty. No, he's more interesting than that. He's a modern templar knight, trying to do the right thing, and arguably doing the right thing, but blinding himself to his own faults and how he interacts with others. That's his character.

 

[Einchy]

Chuck is one of the biggest hypocrites on TV.

 

[Veelk]

No one is saying Chuck is one-dimensional. We're saying he's an despicable asshole and that we're right to hate him and that you're weird for so staunchly defending him.

Hatred is only useful to the extent it doesn't blind you from the truth. When it does, it's a baaaaaaaaad thing. And maybe in the context of a fictional show made for entertainment, it's harmless enough, but people carry this practice over into real life....well, have you SEEN what conclusions people have drawn of Hillary's character based on their illdefined subjective dislike of her? Personally, I prefer to discourage it where I can.

By all means, hate Chuck. But hate Chuck the actual character depicted in the show, not Chuck the Baby Eating Demon.

Because he is, dude.

Prove it.

Edit: I actually DO think there is a time where he broke his own rules a little bit, but I'm interested in seeing if people spot it. Other than that, he's mostly walked what he talked.

*throws 2 cents in*

I mean Chuck is being an ass but Jimmy is a fucking con artist up and down. He broke the law. Chuck should just drop it because he's obviously being fueled by resentment that Jimmy always gets away with it (hecantkeepgettingawaywithit.gif) but if someone made you look like a fool on a big account that you worked hard on. You'd want to see them fucked over too. Jimmy stole and altered court documents to make Chuck and the firm look incompetent. Nobody has clean hands on this one.

See, this is an plausible account of the show I can get behind.

I even thought of the Jesse Gif you mentioned being a parallel.