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Better Call Saul S3 |OT| Gus Who's Back - Mondays 10/9c on AMC

K

Kyzer

Banned
Veelk said:
I would love to see you quote me 'explicitly' stating that.
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Sure.
Veelk said:
Why are people so convinced Chuck is a secret hypocrite? Literally all his reasoning and history points to him abiding by the law with an almost religious dedication. Remember, he had the opportunity to extort Jimmy into quitting being a lawyer, but he refused, establishing that if he was gonna win he wanted to win by being on the right side of the law. He wanted to win righteously.

Remember, this is a guy who endured extra agony by going out into the sun and putting money in place of his neighbors paper. When the money blew away, he went and caught it again to make sure the person got it. He would not simply take the paper, despite no one seeing him do it and it being a crime so petty that no one would be likely to actually care.

Chuck is a modern Knight Templar archetype, where he believes no one is above the law and he doesn't make exceptions even in regards to family members. And that's not to say that his personal grudge against Jimmy for his various scams doesn't bleed into it either. It totally does. But that's what makes it compelling. Stop turning him into a cartoon villain.

It's not unlikely that Chuck genuinely is affronted by the fact that his brother committed a felony against him and sees it as his ethical duty to bring him to justice since he is an officer of the court.

Not to mention that if the tables we're reversed, I'm guessing most people would be applauding Jimmy for "Putting Chuck in his place". People act as if Chuck doesn't have the right to be pissed for what Jimmy did to him. If you don't want to like Chuck, fine, but let's stop feigning offense like any normal person wouldn't want retribution for being humiliated like he was.
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I think you also said we act like hes a demon baby eater. Lol
 
K

Kyzer

Banned
Veelk said:
I don't think you really understand what a 'Knight Templar' archtype is then.
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I dont think you understand what simply asking why chuck has to be a saint means, because thats not what you said. You made a case for him being an upstanding ethical and moral person and were aghast at us acting like hes a secret hypocrite. When we pointed out that youre wrong all of a sudden your point is that chuck doesnt have to be a saint. Yeah sure ok
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kyzer said:
I think you also said we act like hes a demon baby eater. Lol

I dont think you understand what simply asking why chuck has to be a saint means, because thats not what you said.
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And I don't think you understand what hyperbolic figure of speech is either.
 
K

Kyzer

Banned
Veelk said:
And I don't think you understand what hyperbolic figure of speech is either.
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So saying something totally different than what you actually originally said is hyperbole? Ive never heard this "Why does chuck have to be a saint" figure of speech either, is it on urban dictionary?
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kyzer said:
So saying something totally different than what you actually originally said is hyperbolic? Ive never heard this "Why does chuck have to be a saint" figure of speech either, is it on urban dictionary?
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I'm willing to engage in almost any kind of argument and debate, but I draw the line when I feel people are trying to be intentionally obtuse.

No, calling someone a Knight Templar isn't a compliment on their upstanding and moral character. Here is a primer for you to educate yourself on what I was REALLY calling Chuck. If you find yourself spending hours in there, don't worry, that's normal.

As for the saint line, the context of the post was pretty clearly saying he doesn't need to be saint for his actions to nevertheless have ethical merits. He can do the right thing WHILE ALSO being a shitty person. That's been the essence of my general argument. Chuck is a really distasteful person who tries to do right, usually contextualized by his passion for law.

Genuine question, is english your first language? If it is, ignore the sarcasm above, since then you have a legitimate excuse for not understanding correctly.

But lines like "follows the law with an almost religious fervor" and "Knight Templar" may argue for him not being a secret hypocrite, but that doesn't make him an 'upstanding moral citizen'. Not by a long shot.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
Kyzer said:
holy shit he taped him

this show

theres levels
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Rolling tape

Rolling tape

ROLLING TAPE

hqdefault.jpg
 
K

Kyzer

Banned
Veelk said:
I'm willing to engage in almost any kind of argument and debate, but I draw the line when I feel people are trying to be intentionally obtuse.

No, calling someone a Knight Templar isn't a compliment on their upstanding and moral character. Here is a primer for you to educate yourself on what I was REALLY calling Chuck. If you find yourself spending hours in there, don't worry, that's normal.

As for the saint line, the context of the post was pretty clearly saying he doesn't need to be saint for his actions to nevertheless have ethical merits. He can do the right thing WHILE ALSO being a shitty person. That's been the essence of my general argument. Chuck is a really distasteful person who tries to do right, usually contextualized by his passion for law.

Genuine question, is english your first language? If it is, ignore the sarcasm above, since then you have a legitimate excuse for not understanding correctly.

But lines like "follows the law with an almost religious fervor" and "Knight Templar" may argue for him not being a secret hypocrite, but that doesn't make him an 'upstanding moral citizen'. Not by a long shot.
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English isnt my first language. But the point is still that you were clearly laying out a case against us thinking chuck has other motives or is a secret hypocrite. There are actually reasons to feel that way, but you seemed incredulous that people feel that way about him. That was what I took away from your post.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kyzer said:
English isnt my first language. But the point is still that you were clearly laying out a case against us thinking chuck has other motives or is a secret hypocrite. There are actually reasons to feel that way, but you seemed incredulous that people feel that way about him. That was what I took away from your post.
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I don't like simplistic interpretations of characters when I feel there is something more, which I feel there is and I feel people ignore that in the rush to get out how much they hate Chuck.

But just because there is an argument to be made for Chuck doing the things he does, that doesn't make him an upstanding citizen or anything like that.

To put it in clearest way possible, I'm saying it's not a case of being one way or the other. It's something in the middle, and that's not always easy to put in words. It's complex. Chuck isn't a good person. But if he's a bad person, he at least became one trying to be good.

Which is why hypocrite is the wrong word for him. We can say a lot about him, but he never once stated he believed things one way, and then went the other way. He's true to his beliefs, even though they push people away from him. But he's still true, which means hypocrite is just a word that doesn't apply to him.

A Knight Templar is a person who chooses some kind of belief system and acts it out. Generally, people use those belief systems to do good. But a Knight Templar uses goes too far with those beliefs. They force them on others, they look down on people who don't share them, they hurt them if they feel they violated something. Chuck being a Knight Templar feels appropriate. He will see that the law is done, no matter who it hurts.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Hypocrite probably isn't the right word, since Chuck seems to abide by the law pretty strictly. But he does act in bad faith, which is a related concept. He represents himself as doing it out of noble purpose, but it's pretty clear that there is a huge streak of resentment and jealousy that's a stronger motivation. Chuck is hatable for that, and for his seeming to prejudge Jimmy even before Jimmy lives down to his expectations.

I'm reminded of the line from Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong Walter, you're just an asshole."

More interesting to me, is would Jimmy live up to Chuck's expectations if Chuck decided to trust in Jimmy? I don't think so, but Chuck's disapproval feeds Jimmy's self-loathing and he acts worse when Chuck disapproves. (Completely Jimmy's responsibilty, but fascinating to watch.)

Also worth hating that Chuck was willing to let Jimmy hate on Harold while still using Jimmy as a servant of sorts. Which is separate from the legal/ethical arguments but I think most people would consider despicable.
 
T

Triggerhappytel

Member
So I just started watching this on my lunch break, but I'm a bit hazy what happened at the end of the last season - Jimmy changed the paperwork so Chuck would make a fool of himself in front of the clients and they would go with Kim instead, and then Chuck found the place where Jimmy had done the photocopying, they had a confrontation and Chuck fainted, bashed his head and when he woke said he was retiring. Jimmy, trying to calm his brother, admitted he'd falsified the documents and Chuck secretly recorded his confession. Have I missed anything? What happened with Mike at the end of the last season? I can't really recall any of his plotlines.
 
O

OmegaTreeFish

Banned
Triggerhappytel said:
So I just started watching this on my lunch break, but I'm a bit hazy what happened at the end of the last season - Jimmy changed the paperwork so Chuck would make a fool of himself in front of the clients and they would go with Kim instead, and then Chuck found the place where Jimmy had done the photocopying, they had a confrontation and Chuck fainted, bashed his head and when he woke said he was retiring. Jimmy, trying to calm his brother, admitted he'd falsified the documents and Chuck secretly recorded his confession. Have I missed anything? What happened with Mike at the end of the last season? I can't really recall any of his plotlines.
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Mike was hired to assassinate that guy but just before he could he heard his car horn going off. When he got back to the car there was something wedged onto the horn to keep it going and a note on his window saying 'dont'. He drives off not making the kill.

edit* ah yes thanks 'Lord of Castamere' I forgot he wasnt hired to kill that guy at the end it was of his own volition.

I believe whats going on with gus and mike now is what will lead to what ever Gus does to ruin Hecktor. will interesting to find out.
 
L

Lord of Castamere

Member
Triggerhappytel said:
What happened with Mike at the end of the last season? I can't really recall any of his plotlines.
Click to expand...

Mike was hired to assassinate Tuco Salamanca by Nacho in fear that soon Tuco will fly off the rails and kill Nacho, but Mike changed the plan to get Tuco thrown in jail instead, by getting him to steal from, and fight Mike, while police came. This worked, but Hector Salamanca, Tucos uncle (bell wheelchair guy from Breaking Bad), came to Mike and told him to confess that the gun found at the scene was his, so that Tuco would get off, Mike refused. So later the Cousins from Breaking bad, also nephews of Hector, show up to threaten Mike. He then goes to a sit down with Hector, who threatens his granddaughter, but agrees to Mikes terms. Mike recants his statement that the gun wasn't Tucos, with Jimmys help. Charges are not pressed on Mike, and are dropped or lowered on Tuco. Mike retaliates by disrupting a money transport, but is dismayed to find out that it did nothing except get an innocent killed. Mike decides to kill Hector, either to protect his granddaughter, or to get revenge for the person that died, or anger. It's not really specified from what I remember. Nacho keeps blocking the shot. The driver that he didn't kill in the money transport is murdered. He hears the horn, goes back and finds the 'Don't' note. Begin Season 3.

That's about everything that happened to Mike last season, that's relevant to this season. I doubt the squat cobblers will matter much.
 
K

Kyzer

Banned
Veelk said:
I don't like simplistic interpretations of characters when I feel there is something more, which I feel there is and I feel people ignore that in the rush to get out how much they hate Chuck.

But just because there is an argument to be made for Chuck doing the things he does, that doesn't make him an upstanding citizen or anything like that.

To put it in clearest way possible, I'm saying it's not a case of being one way or the other. It's something in the middle, and that's not always easy to put in words. It's complex. Chuck isn't a good person. But if he's a bad person, he at least became one trying to be good.

Which is why hypocrite is the wrong word for him. We can say a lot about him, but he never once stated he believed things one way, and then went the other way. He's true to his beliefs, even though they push people away from him. But he's still true, which means hypocrite is just a word that doesn't apply to him.

A Knight Templar is a person who chooses some kind of belief system and acts it out. Generally, people use those belief systems to do good. But a Knight Templar uses goes too far with those beliefs. They force them on others, they look down on people who don't share them, they hurt them if they feel they violated something. Chuck being a Knight Templar feels appropriate. He will see that the law is done, no matter who it hurts.
Click to expand...


I see what youre saying. I think its as simple as he is an antagonist and we love saul
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Kyzer said:
I see what youre saying. I think its as simple as he is an antagonist and we love saul
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True. But despite all the "fuck Chuck" sentiment currently roiling the audience, I have a feeling that a lot of us will be on the "Fuck Jimmy" train by the time we find out what his fast-and-loose antics inflict on Kim. I also wouldn't be surprised if Kim eventually comes to share Chuck's views on Jimmy.
 
BizzyBum

BizzyBum

Member
You all know Gilligan is going to do something crazy to Chuck and we're all going to feel bad for him by the end of the series.
 
B

Betty

Banned
BizzyBum said:
You all know Gilligan is going to do something crazy to Chuck and we're all going to feel bad for him by the end of the series.
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Chuck deciding to continually fuck up his brother and get back at him means I won't feel that bad.

Several times he's had a chance to drop things but now he does this.
 
Avinexus

Avinexus

Member
I'm glad we are getting deeper into the BB tie-in stuff. I was giddy knowing the restaurant was going to be Los Pollos.
 
Teletraan1

Teletraan1

Banned
Lol when they had that Volvo station wagon outside of the building in the shot where Mike is looking through the binoculars prior to showing the restaurant signage I knew what was up.

It is such a slow burn this show but I love it.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
I finally got caught up on Saul. I'm so glad to see Gus back. He was my favorite character in BB and one of my favorite villains ever. And he's a cool guy. The actor I mean. And the character.

Can't wait to see how Mike becomes his partner.

I really wish I hadn't known Gus was coming. Though I guess if I hadn't, I might not have been pushed to binge watch the show with my girlfriend to catch up. She's excited to see him back too.
 
D

Darth Pinche

Member
Teletraan1 said:
Lol when they had that Volvo station wagon outside of the building in the shot where Mike is looking through the binoculars prior to showing the restaurant signage I knew what was up.

It is such a slow burn this show but I love it.
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So true, I got so excited when I saw his Volvo!
 
T

TheSun

Member
Yeah Francesca is cool.

Never really hated Chuck, kinda got his point. I think Jimmy is more likely to ruin Kim than Chuck would, I think.
 
D

Dangerblade

Member
#FuckChuck

Have we ever actually seen the other Hamlin in Hamlin, Hamlin and McGill? I'm drawing a blank. I have a vague memory of somebody in a meeting regarding Chuck's health, but nothing concrete.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
Dangerblade said:
Have we ever actually seen the other Hamlin in Hamlin, Hamlin and McGill? I'm drawing a blank. I have a vague memory of somebody in a meeting regarding Chuck's health, but nothing concrete.
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The other Hamlin is Howard's father, but I don't think we've ever seen him(?) Might be deceased?
 
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