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Better Call Saul S3 |OT| Gus Who's Back - Mondays 10/9c on AMC

F

Fatalah

Member
duckroll said:
Remember in Season 1 when everyone thought that Howard was the classic asshole rich guy trying to keep the little guy down, because it was so easy to believe what Jimmy believed? Remember how it felt like he was a cartoon villain out to cheat Chuck and destroy Jimmy's career?

The reality turned out to be so much more disgusting. Howard is probably the most moral guy at HHM, constantly caught between a nonsensical family feud. I honestly feel bad for the guy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm on team Howard.
 
B

Bounceounce

Member
duckroll said:
Remember in Season 1 when everyone thought that Howard was the classic asshole rich guy trying to keep the little guy down, because it was so easy to believe what Jimmy believed? Remember how it felt like he was a cartoon villain out to cheat Chuck and destroy Jimmy's career?

The reality turned out to be so much more disgusting. Howard is probably the most moral guy at HHM, constantly caught between a nonsensical family feud. I honestly feel bad for the guy.
Click to expand...
Actually no, I always doubted the accusations against Hamlin and stood by him (though obviously based on his season 2 actions he isn't perfect).
I distrusted Walter from episode one and always stood by Skyler though, so that's just how I go about things.
 
F

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
duckroll said:
I don't feel that there is much indication in the characterization of Chuck that he is insecure or jealous of anything Jimmy is. Resentful yes, but for the reasons I described.
Click to expand...
I agree with your readings, but in some flashbacks the show does paint Chuck as somewhat jealous of Jimmy's natural charisma. It happened when Chuck's wife got along so well with Jimmy during the dinner, and it was why he didn't tell Jimmy their mother's last words, because it showed preference for him (great subtle acting by Michael McKean in both scenes). I wouldn't say it's actually a part of what compels him to do what he does, but it's there even if it's on an unconscious level.
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Fatalah said:
Yeah, I'm on team Howard.
Click to expand...

There is no Team Hennessy. There is only Team Kim.

But seriously, I think Howard is going to end up pulling the rug out from under Chuck. You can tell he's not that invested in screwing over Jimmy, and Kim by proxy. He seemed genuinely happy for Kim when she told him about her new practice. Even slightly envious that she was striking off on her own path since he never really got that opportunity. HHM even wiped all her law school loans off the table as a sign of good will.

I mean, we all know Jimmy is going to find a way to slip out of this. And that means Chuck will try something even more ridiculous to counter. That's the point where I think Howard says "Chuck, it's been real. And it's been good. But it ain't been real good. Adios." I don't even think it would be that hard for Howard to completely shut down Chuck if he wanted. Couldn't he just go to Jimmy and ask for Chuck to be committed? Plus, Ernie works for HHM not just Chuck. And Ernie knows all about Chuck's issues.
 
D

duckroll

Member
Fuu said:
I agree with your readings, but in some flashbacks the show does paint Chuck as somewhat jealous of Jimmy's natural charisma. It happened when Chuck's wife got along so well with Jimmy during the dinner, and it was why he didn't tell Jimmy their mother's last words, because it showed preference for him (great subtle acting by Michael McKean in both scenes). I wouldn't say it's actually a part of what compels him to do what he does, but it's there even if it's on an unconscious level.
Click to expand...

Those are good points. I totally forgot about the scenes with his wife. There's definitely resentment that Jimmy gets attention so easily. I think it also feeds into his paranoia (which manifests as his electrophobia or whatever) - seeing Jimmy as nothing but a criminal and a source of shame personally, but yet facing everyone everyday who seem to have no problems liking Jimmy, eats away at Chuck. It makes him constantly question if there's something wrong with the world, or something wrong with himself. At least that's how I see it.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Fuu said:
I agree with your readings, but in some flashbacks the show does paint Chuck as somewhat jealous of Jimmy's natural charisma. It happened when Chuck's wife got along so well with Jimmy during the dinner, and it was why he didn't tell Jimmy their mother's last words, because it showed preference for him (great subtle acting by Michael McKean in both scenes). I wouldn't say it's actually a part of what compels him to do what he does, but it's there even if it's on an unconscious level.
Click to expand...

While I agree that jealousy is atleast an element of Chuck's character, I never found myself agreeing with the consensus that him not telling Jimmy that his mother said his name to be an indication of his shittiness. Not that it was a good thing to do, but...well, consider it from his perspective.

First, he is sitting in the hospital devastated that his mother is dying, while Jimmy seems to be considerably less affected. Different people show their grief in different ways, but Jimmy, to Chuck's perception, seemed to be barely grieving at all, and not unreasonably so.

Second, why do people think his mother saying Jimmy is proof that she loved him more? The woman is dying and clearly in no way cognizant. She might be saying Jimmy because she just happens to see Jimmy in whatever dying dream she has. She could just be reliving some kind of memory or something. Sure, Chuck is sad that he can't get through to his mother, that she can't hear his voice through her delusion. And that's heartbreaking. That it's Jimmy she's thinking off also stokes the fires as well, but honestly, if that happened to me, I would be anguishing that my mother couldn't hear me as well, whoever she was calling out to.

What I always got from that scene is Chuck's silent rage that the world doesn't work the way it's supposed to. Chuck is beside himself with grief, while Jimmy barely seems to care, yet it's Jimmy that she thinks of. Chuck is the one who stayed with her to the very end, while Jimmy went on a food run, yet it's Jimmy she that she calls out to.

So while there was a resentment to be noted on Chuck's part at the hospital scene, I didn't feel it was one of jealousy. That vice feels too small and petty. It's resentment at the injustice of the world, where Chuck did what he was supposed, but Jimmy got his mother's last thoughts. And if that happened to me, to my mother, while the other close family member barely seemed to care, I'd be furious too. And that's not being petty, vindictive asshole, that's just being human.

Edit: and just to be clear, this doesn't mean Jimmy is doing anything wrong or that Chuck is being fair here. He's not. It's just weird to people saw all that and went "Aha! Even his own mother didn't love him and he's jealous of Jimmy. Yet another reason why he's a shit!" instead of basic empathy that anybody in that state wouldn't be at their best regardless of who they are.
 
brickarts295

brickarts295

Member
duckroll said:
Remember in Season 1 when everyone thought that Howard was the classic asshole rich guy trying to keep the little guy down, because it was so easy to believe what Jimmy believed? Remember how it felt like he was a cartoon villain out to cheat Chuck and destroy Jimmy's career?

The reality turned out to be so much more disgusting. Howard is probably the most moral guy at HHM, constantly caught between a nonsensical family feud. I honestly feel bad for the guy.
Click to expand...
Yeah he was a weird one. I wanted to hate him, but some part of me notice that wasn't exactly a bad guy. Maybe a bit of a douche, but he's the boss so he kinda has to act the part.

Chuck definitely took the spotlight once everything began to tie into the fact that it was him who didn't wan't Jimmy to join HHM.
 
S

Socreges

Banned
duckroll said:
Those are good points. I totally forgot about the scenes with his wife. There's definitely resentment that Jimmy gets attention so easily. I think it also feeds into his paranoia (which manifests as his electrophobia or whatever) - seeing Jimmy as nothing but a criminal and a source of shame personally, but yet facing everyone everyday who seem to have no problems liking Jimmy, eats away at Chuck. It makes him constantly question if there's something wrong with the world, or something wrong with himself. At least that's how I see it.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

The scene where he finally concedes and makes himself vulnerable by telling a lawyer joke to his wife... but she only smirks... great way of selling the point that there is some jealousy behind his resentment.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Grizzlyjin said:
There is no Team Hennessy. There is only Team Kim.

But seriously, I think Howard is going to end up pulling the rug out from under Chuck. You can tell he's not that invested in screwing over Jimmy, and Kim by proxy. He seemed genuinely happy for Kim when she told him about her new practice. Even slightly envious that she was striking off on her own path since he never really got that opportunity. HHM even wiped all her law school loans off the table as a sign of good will.

I mean, we all know Jimmy is going to find a way to slip out of this. And that means Chuck will try something even more ridiculous to counter. That's the point where I think Howard says "Chuck, it's been real. And it's been good. But it ain't been real good. Adios." I don't even think it would be that hard for Howard to completely shut down Chuck if he wanted. Couldn't he just go to Jimmy and ask for Chuck to be committed? Plus, Ernie works for HHM not just Chuck. And Ernie knows all about Chuck's issues.
Click to expand...

We saw a bit of Hoho getting done with Chuck when he played the recording for him, but then he went right back to sucking his dick.

Veelk said:
Edit: and just to be clear, this doesn't mean Jimmy is doing anything wrong or that Chuck is being fair here. He's not. It's just weird to people saw all that and went "Aha! Even his own mother didn't love him and he's jealous of Jimmy. Yet another reason why he's a shit!" instead of basic empathy that anybody in that state wouldn't be at their best regardless of who they are.
Click to expand...

This is why it's hard to hold a conversation with you. Thinly veiled hyperbolic attacks on people's opinions.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
HP_Wuvcraft said:
This is why it's hard to hold a conversation with you. Thinly veiled hyperbolic attacks on people's opinions.
Click to expand...

Whats the attack here? That people in this thread, broadly speaking, aren't very empathetic toward Chuck? If it's that....well, have you seen way people post about the guy?

I'm pretty sure I remember the thread when that episode aired. People were basically coming to the conclusion I described then too. It was a while ago, so I might be wrong, but I recall posting similar content to what I posted above. And, iirc, it was also the one where he went into the MRI machine that showed him in extensive pain. Relatively few people people empathized with his pain then and some took a bit relish in his discomfort.

Saying people aren't empathetic to Chuck is a basic description of the prevailing attitude around here. And that isn't to say they're not empathetic people in general, but people tend to shut off their ability to empathize with people they deem deserving of suffering.
 
D

duckroll

Member
HP_Wuvcraft said:
This is why it's hard to hold a conversation with you. Thinly veiled hyperbolic attacks on people's opinions.
Click to expand...

I dunno, I thought he made really good points about the characterization of Chuck. It's always good to see things from the perspective of a character who is disliked, to see if it is artificial villainry written just to be an antagonistic element, or if there are actual emotions and psychology at work we can relate to. That's the difference between simply entertaining works and really great character work in fiction.

But it sounds like you have some personal hang ups with the poster? :p
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Mariolee said:
This synopsis is killing me

"Jimmy decides to represent a new client to Kim's dismay"

The new client being Jimmy himself presumably hahahaha
Click to expand...

R2rMze6.gif
 
F

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Veelk said:
While I agree that jealousy is atleast an element of Chuck's character, I never found myself agreeing with the consensus that him not telling Jimmy that his mother said his name to be an indication of his shittiness. Not that it was a good thing to do, but...well, consider it from his perspective.

First, he is sitting in the hospital devastated that his mother is dying, while Jimmy seems to be considerably less affected. Different people show their grief in different ways, but Jimmy, to Chuck's perception, seemed to be barely grieving at all, and not unreasonably so. Ch

Second, why do people think his mother saying Jimmy is proof that she loved him more? The woman is dying and clearly in no way cognizant. She might be saying Jimmy because she just happens to see Jimmy in whatever dying dream she has. She could just be reliving some kind of memory or something. Sure, Chuck is sad that he can't get through to his mother, that she can't hear his voice through her delusion. And that's heartbreaking. That it's Jimmy she's thinking off also stokes the fires as well, but honestly, if that happened to me, I would be anguishing that my mother couldn't hear me as well, whoever she was calling out to.

What I always got from that scene is Chuck's silent rage that the world doesn't work the way it's supposed to. Chuck is beside himself with grief, while Jimmy barely seems to care, yet it's Jimmy that she thinks of. Chuck is the one who stayed with her to the very end, while Jimmy went on a food run, yet it's Jimmy she that she calls out to.

So while there was a resentment to be noted on Chuck's part at the hospital scene, I didn't feel it was one of jealousy. That vice feels too small and petty. It's resentment at the injustice of the world, where Chuck did what he was supposed, but Jimmy got his mother's last thoughts. And if that happened to me, to my mother, while the other close family member barely seemed to care, I'd be furious too. And that's not being petty, vindictive asshole, that's just being human.

Edit: and just to be clear, this doesn't mean Jimmy is doing anything wrong or that Chuck is being fair here. He's not. It's just weird to people saw all that and went "Aha! Even his own mother didn't love him and he's jealous of Jimmy. Yet another reason why he's a shit!" instead of basic empathy that anybody in that state wouldn't be at their best regardless of who they are.
Click to expand...
Good call on the injustice of it all angle, it's definitely more nuanced than pure pettiness at that moment and I can see that process going on in Chuck's mind. I love how layered the show is and how far the writers go to make everything as gray as possible.
 
E

epmode

Member
dave is ok said:
I'm pretty sure it's done being written. Possibly even filmed
Click to expand...
Listening to the podcast, it sounds like they're filming some episodes pretty close to the wire so I figured they might have a few writers around for last minute changes. Guess not!

But yeah, a strike has a chance of affecting next season. The show apparently takes ages to write.
 
B

Bandit1

Member
Mariolee said:
This synopsis is killing me

"Jimmy decides to represent a new client to Kim's dismay"

The new client being Jimmy himself presumably hahahaha
Click to expand...

This was my first thought haha. So ready for tonight's episode, I've loved the slow burn all along, but the show seems to be picking up speed and that's exciting.
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
I've gotta mention, I think they did a great job with Gus so far. Knowing AMC, I thought they would have milked like a panel at Comic Con. As long as the program stays within it's own footing and doesn't pander for Breaking Bad audience clapping it should be a fun ride.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
epmode said:
Listening to the podcast, it sounds like they're filming some episodes pretty close to the wire so I figured they might have a few writers around for last minute changes. Guess not!

But yeah, a strike has a chance of affecting next season. The show apparently takes ages to write.
Click to expand...

Is the new strike an actual thing?
 
F

FZZ

Banned
btw is there an estimate of how many seasons we are gonna be getting?

Also hope they show more of the flash forward they only do at the beginning of each season

I wanna see more of what's going on with Cinnabon Jimmy
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
FZZ said:
btw is there an estimate of how many seasons we are gonna be getting?
Click to expand...

There's a gulf of difference between how many seasons they want/have planned, and how many seasons we actually get.

They do want to go through the entire spine of BB, though.

Sanjuro said:
I've gotta mention, I think they did a great job with Gus so far. Knowing AMC, I thought they would have milked like a panel at Comic Con. As long as the program stays within it's own footing and doesn't pander for Breaking Bad audience clapping it should be a fun ride.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the panel will be this year.

PhoenixDawn said:
It was authorized by WGA members today I think (https://twitter.com/daisykpgardner/status/856649761117450240). So I think there's definitely a high chance of it happening. Selfishly, I hope it doesn't affect BCS or other great shows too much, but I hope the writers get the pay and terms they deserve for putting out such great products.
Click to expand...

It begins.
 
K

kevin1025

Banned
FZZ said:
btw is there an estimate of how many seasons we are gonna be getting?

Also hope they show more of the flash forward they only do at the beginning of each season

I wanna see more of what's going on with Cinnabon Jimmy
Click to expand...

Vince Gilligan mentioned how he wants to come back for the final season after he does his HBO show, so if you're reading between the lines, it sounds like they want to do five seasons (two more after this one).
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
Here's the thing about the brothers McGill: They're both kind of shitty people who do shitty things. But at least Jimmy is likable
 
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