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[Cornballer]

Question: Has any critic of substance written about the difference of fan reaction to Kim Wexler and Skyler White.

There hasn't been much. Matt Zoller Seitz wrote about Chuck as BCS' Skyler White after S2.

Kim hasn’t done anything actively as bad as Jimmy stealing and altering documents to sabotage his meddling brother’s representation of Mesa Verde’s new branch. In fact, she criticized Jimmy for his showboating, his indifference to workplace protocol, his failure to let his boss know that he was shooting an ad starring himself, and his overall tendency to act as if he’s the hero of a story in which everybody else is an extra. But she is still entering into a limited partnership with him (two adjacent solo practices sharing costs and helping each other), she appreciates the way he encourages her, she’s proud of his attempts to improve his station in life, and, after all his shenanigans, she’s still his girlfriend. In the penultimate episode, when Kim responded to the revelation of Jimmy’s crime by saying they should never speak of it again, their conversation was pillow talk. In more ways than one, she’s in bed with Jimmy. These two characters are easy to like but hard to endorse, and they’re on altogether more equal footing than Walter and Skyler, who embodied the gendered stereotype of life partnerships consisting of a dreamer and somebody whose job is to say “no.”

That's also echoed on a recent Warming Glow piece on Kim.

It’s worth noting here that Kim has avoided the Skyler White problem so far, in which viewers turn on the female love interest because she’s very understandably asking her burgeoning supervillain partner to, like, not do that. Part of this is the show using Chuck in that role, to the degree he has literally spent the better part of a season sitting in a dark house and plotting against Jimmy like the bad guy in a cartoon. But part of it has been how great Rhea Seehorn is as Kim, too.

There was an article in The Week about How Better Call Saul fixed Breaking Bad's Skyler Problem, though I'm not familiar with the author. Her conclusion:

There's a reason everyone loves Kim, and it isn't just that Rhea Seehorn is awesome (though she is). No, it's that in a show that sets some difficult narrative goals for itself, it gives itself a total pass when it comes to the women. If Skyler was structurally impossible to love, Kim Wexler is structurally impossible to hate.

I tend to avoid and discourage Skyler White discussion in BCS threads as it has an unfortunate tendency to derail the discussion.

 

[Cornballer]

Wonder what the goddamn genius Vince Gilligan will continue with after BCS.. Will it be more of the BB/BCS universe, or will it be something completely different.

He's currently working on a Jim Jones limited series for HBO at the moment, but they're assuming that he'll finish that up and be back on BCS for the conclusion of the series, whenever that is.

 

[Fuu]

It's funny reading stuff like this. I like Jimmy as a character. There's really nothing they can do to make me dislike him, just like nothing Walt ever did made me dislike him. I was always rooting for him.

Now you have reactions like this when he made an old woman cry but last week he faked an injury putting those brothers in a way worse situation overall, and he's literally stolen from people, etc.

Still nothing worse on this show than Chuck lying about his dying mother's last words.

"Making an old lady cry" is an oversimplification of what he did. He took advantage of her confidence knowing his actions would potentially ruin whatever little happiness she had in her routine. He used gullible and fragile people, and the circle of friends Irene exercised with and played bingo with turned their backs on her due to false information he planted. His victim is framed as a fully innocent person and his actions this time didn't feel like hijinks done with good intentions, lack of foresight or in the heat of the moment, like it's often the case with the character.

Animal cruelty and taking advantage of old people or children is usually what crosses the line for a lot of people, and for good reason. I still find Jimmy to be a very interesting character, but the show is on its way of turning him into a complete jackass and there's no denying that on more than one level this situation is supposed to be different from the ones that he caused before.

That said, none of these characters need to be likable, they only need to be engaging. A character being unlikable isn't a problem in fiction, the problem is when they become uninteresting, and thankfully Jimmy is far from that.

 

[DoubleYou]

It's funny reading stuff like this. I like Jimmy as a character. There's really nothing they can do to make me dislike him, just like nothing Walt ever did made me dislike him. I was always rooting for him.

Now you have reactions like this when he made an old woman cry but last week he faked an injury putting those brothers in a way worse situation overall, and he's literally stolen from people, etc.

Still nothing worse on this show than Chuck lying about his dying mother's last words.

I'm the same. I never understood people getting angry at 'evil' characters. Even Walt

Spoiler

in his final days

was a joy to watch. I love to see them struggle with their own morality. That's great television to me. And Breaking Bad and BCS have been one of the better shows to portray that. Especially Breaking Bad really kept pushing that line, and I feel BCS is starting to head down that same path. Just sit back and enjoy the fall.

 

[LQX]

Man I HATE Jimmy. There is something wrong when you like a member of a drug cartel way more.

 

[Trakan]

At least in Chuck's case, while wrong, could be argued that he was trying to spare Jimmy's feelings in a way, given that he left her bedside as she was dying.

If you took that to be even a possibility, you completely missed the point of the scene.

 

[Einchy]

If you took that to be even a possibility, you completely missed the point of the scene.

Yeah, they weren't being subtle with that scene, they showed us Chuck at his most spiteful and jealousy filled self.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

I'm the same. I never understood people getting angry at 'evil' characters. Even Walt

Spoiler

in his final days

was a joy to watch. I love to see them struggle with their own morality. That's great television to me. And Breaking Bad and BCS have been one of the better shows to portray that. Especially Breaking Bad really kept pushing that line, and I feel BCS is starting to head down that same path. Just sit back and enjoy the fall.

A lot of the joy of these two shows is watching the characters puzzle or charm their way out of situations. Their cleverness and hustle makes them appealing. I think there is something a little narcissistic about it because it's the writers who are solving these puzzles as they themselves work them out in their writer's room. But that said, I think this show has to go down a different path than Walt. This show can't be about Jimmy realizing that he loves the grift and the hustle more than he loves people, the way Walt realized at the end that he loved his blue meth/his empire/his cleverness etc. above everything else. I am hoping that the present-day Jimmy/Gene story resolves with him realizing that compassion is not just about being a sucker, but is actually a more rewarding way to go through life than being a shark.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Um, conning old ladies is classic Jimmy. He is a con man. People ok with him conning assholes at the bar I guess? He has done this his whole life!

 

[Human Trashcan]

It's funny reading stuff like this. I like Jimmy as a character. There's really nothing they can do to make me dislike him, just like nothing Walt ever did made me dislike him. I was always rooting for him.

Now you have reactions like this when he made an old woman cry but last week he faked an injury putting those brothers in a way worse situation overall, and he's literally stolen from people, etc.

Still nothing worse on this show than Chuck lying about his dying mother's last words.

your moral compass is fucked

I'm the same. I never understood people getting angry at 'evil' characters. Even Walt

Spoiler

in his final days

was a joy to watch. I love to see them struggle with their own morality. That's great television to me. And Breaking Bad and BCS have been one of the better shows to portray that. Especially Breaking Bad really kept pushing that line, and I feel BCS is starting to head down that same path. Just sit back and enjoy the fall.

Enjoying compelling TV about bad people is not the same as endorsing bad behavior though. But that's a whole separate issue from rooting for them. If you LIKED Walt at the end of BB I don't know what to say about that other than... that's fucked up?

There was an article in The Week about How Better Call Saul fixed Breaking Bad's Skyler Problem, though I'm not familiar with the author.

This piece is super good btw and has the answers to most of what's on this page.

 

[ZangBa]

I just saw the episode. Jimmy went too far this time, I felt so bad for Irene. That poor old lady lost all her friends forever, even if they are wrong for abandoning her immediately like that anyway, Jimmy is the reason it all happened in the first place.

 

[Trakan]

your moral compass is fucked

Harsh words coming from a guy named Human Trashcan. This show is fiction.

I like Gus too, crucify me.

 

[riotous]

That poor old lady lost all her friends forever.

Why are people assuming this? If she settles and tells the ladies she's sorry, why would she lose them as friends forever?

I think Jimmy did this fully expecting Irene to settle and make good with her friends.

While I thought it was funny, the whole thing was just so over the top to me. I've known a shit ton of old people and none of them were as witless and child like as these old ladies.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Why are people assuming this? If she settles and tells the ladies she's sorry, why would she lose them as friends forever?

I think Jimmy did this fully expecting Irene to settle and make good with her friends.

I think Jimmy did this knowing he could walk away rich and not have to deal with them again if things got sour. He is at the tipping point, I'm sure he would like things to work out for Irene but at this stage he doesn't care if it ruins her relationships as long as he gets his money.

 

[bluethree]

Why are people assuming this? If she settles and tells the ladies she's sorry, why would she lose them as friends forever?

I think Jimmy did this fully expecting Irene to settle and make good with her friends.

While I thought it was funny, the whole thing was just so over the top to me. I've known a shit ton of old people and none of them were as witless and child like as these old ladies.

We don't know for sure, but there's always a possibility that those friendships can't be fixed.

 

[SarusGray]

Kimmm nooo baby girl.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Kimmm nooo baby girl.

Seriously this entire episode I was sweating and dreading something awful to happen to Kim. The shit with her car was such a goddamn nerve-wracking tease. I honestly thought she was about to get swallowed up by a sinkhole or something lol.

The way they handled that and the end of the episode was fucking amazing television.

 

[minor effort]

If you took that to be even a possibility, you completely missed the point of the scene.

Yeah, they weren't being subtle with that scene, they showed us Chuck at his most spiteful and jealousy filled self.

I agree, knowing Chuck, his lie was motivated by jealousy and spite. But removing him from the situation and that would be a plausible motivation for somebody lying about a mother’s dying words to spare and absent sibling’s feelings.

With Irene it wasn’t just one simple lie Jimmy spun but rather a deliberately, concerted effort to destroy an old woman’s only friendships. Even removing Jimmy from the situation doesn’t really invite many more charitable possibilities for why someone would act like that.

And with Jimmy it gets worse because he did it solely for money, and took it as cause to celebrate his “victory” afterwards.

 

[Human Trashcan]

I think Jimmy did this fully expecting Irene to settle and make good with her friends.

how do you watch this episode and still get the impression that Jimmy gives a single shit about anyone other than himself, i can't

 

[SarusGray]

Seriously this entire episode I was sweating and dreading something awful to happen to Kim. The shit with her car was such a goddamn nerve-wracking tease. I honestly thought she was about to get swallowed up by a sinkhole or something lol.

The way they handled that and the end of the episode was fucking amazing television.

exactly. God, poor girl is overworked. I saw it coming after she was at the oil pumps and her car almost hitting it. I'm like there's the sign, there it is. I feel like she's just burying herself in work to hide herself from confronting her true emotions towards what Jimmy has been doing. Dammitttt.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

There hasn't been much. Matt Zoller Seitz wrote about Chuck as BCS' Skyler White after S2. That's also echoed on a recent Warming Glow piece on Kim. There was an article in The Week about How Better Call Saul fixed Breaking Bad's Skyler Problem, though I'm not familiar with the author. Her conclusion:I tend to avoid and discourage Skyler White discussion in BCS threads as it has an unfortunate tendency to derail the discussion.

Awesome. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[ZangBa]

Why are people assuming this? If she settles and tells the ladies she's sorry, why would she lose them as friends forever?

I think Jimmy did this fully expecting Irene to settle and make good with her friends.

While I thought it was funny, the whole thing was just so over the top to me. I've known a shit ton of old people and none of them were as witless and child like as these old ladies.

They are going to hold that resentment over her now and not all of them will be quick to be friendly again.

What I find the most unrealistic is that there is no way in hell those ladies didn't ask about her shoes immediately when she returned. Hell, there is no way she didn't straight up tell them immediately where the shoes came from without them asking. You know they like to gossip about anything, that was dumb.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

I like Gus too, crucify me.

I have a feeling we're going to find out (or at least get hints) that Gus is into some really evil shit way beyond drugs: illegal arms dealing, chemical/bio weapons, slave trading, torturing Chilean dissidents, political assassinations/death squads, etc.

 

[riotous]

how do you watch this episode and still get the impression that Jimmy gives a single shit about anyone other than himself, i can't

I'm not saying he cares a great amount; Jimmy still likes to make excuses for his actions though. If he ever thinks about this act he'd excuse it as "she'll be fine."

Either way, no one can make the claim she will lose her friends forever. Nor can I say she won't, but that's a little over the top to assume she will IMO.

 

[Human Trashcan]

They are going to hold that resentment over her now and not all of them will be quick to be friendly again.

What I find the most unrealistic is that there is no way in hell those ladies didn't ask about her shoes immediately when she returned. Hell, there is no way she didn't straight up tell them immediately where the shoes came from without them asking. You know they like to gossip about anything, that was dumb.

I thought so too. Sure seems like a real big gamble on Jimmy's part to give her the shoes and assume that neither Irene or any of the other ladies would actually bring it up (I know he asked her not to but that doesn't preclude them from asking), but it's a minor writing shortcut, not really a big deal.

I'm not saying he cares a great amount; Jimmy still likes to make excuses for his actions though. If he ever thinks about this act he'd excuse it as "she'll be fine."

Either way, no one can make the claim she will lose her friends forever. Nor can I say she won't, but that's a little over the top to assume she will IMO.

Money does things to people, and people, especially old people with very small social circles, can be very petty and spiteful. They became convinced Irene didn't want to settle because she wanted more money, that's not something they're gonna just let go.

 

[Trakan]

While I thought it was funny, the whole thing was just so over the top to me. I've known a shit ton of old people and none of them were as witless and child like as these old ladies.

I agree, and they would have at least talked to Irene about the issue before disowning her.

I have a feeling we're going to find out (or at least get hints) that Gus is into some really evil shit way beyond drugs: illegal arms dealing, chemical/bio weapons, slave trading, torturing Chilean dissidents, political assassinations/death squads, etc.

Sure, bring on whatever. He already slit a guy's throat himself so nothing will make me dislike him. He's a good actor and great bad guy.

 

[Servbot24]

So if I'm being honest... if you asked me to spread bad rumors about an old lady in exchange for a million dollars, I would probably do it. That said I would use some of the money to try and make things up with her (and I bet Jimmy would too).


The ending of this episode I'm still conflicted on... it was definitely a realistic thing that could happen, but I didn't see it coming at all. I'm really curious where they're going with it.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I'm really curious where they're going with it.

Kim is going to mcgyver her car back together and make the meeting.

 

[Servbot24]

Kim is going to mcgyver her car back together and make the meeting.

Kim really is the best.

good lord the stakes in this show are low

I love this about it so much.

 

[crisdecuba]

So if I'm being honest... if you asked me to spread bad rumors about an old lady in exchange for a million dollars, I would probably do it. That said I would use some of the money to try and make things up with her (and I bet Jimmy would too).


The ending of this episode I'm still conflicted on... it was definitely a realistic thing that could happen, but I didn't see it coming at all. I'm really curious where they're going with it.

I felt like they've done an excellent job throughout the season showing the progression of Kim being overworked and increasingly stretched thin.

 

[Fuu]

I agree, and they would have at least talked to Irene about the issue before disowning her.

Sure, bring on whatever. He already slit a guy's throat himself so nothing will make me dislike him. He's a good actor and great bad guy.

Doesn't everyone like Jimmy and Gus in that sense though? I believe everyone appreciates these characters in regards to them being interesting, well-written and well-acted. Responses like "fuck Chuck" and "I hate Jimmy" are just emotional reactions, and those just mean that the show is doing its job in affecting the viewer in different ways.

 

[riotous]

They became convinced Irene didn't want to settle because she wanted more money, that's not something they're gonna just let go.

This is just silly; they will do this.. they will do that. We are talking about characters we know little to nothing about, whose characterization was as shallow as a puddle.

The whole thing is kind of "nothing" to me; it was simple manipulative characterization. Yes it shows Jimmy can be cruel; beyond that I don't think this is even worth the conversation we've had thus far. Some of the silliest writing I've seen in the BB universe.

 

[Castorp]

What I find the most unrealistic is that there is no way in hell those ladies didn't ask about her shoes immediately when she returned. Hell, there is no way she didn't straight up tell them immediately where the shoes came from without them asking. You know they like to gossip about anything, that was dumb.

i agree with you, this part wasn't good writing.

i liked the episode overall, but i thought something more dramatic was going to happen to Kim. And the way to show her accident was "new", but not very powerful in my opinion.

 

[Fatalah]

Wait...this week's episode wasn't the season finale? Holy crapola! The episode was absolutely riveting.

 

[crisdecuba]

i liked the episode overall, but i thought something more dramatic was going to happen to Kim. And the way to show her accident was "new", but not very powerful in my opinion.

I don't really follow. What do you mean by "more dramatic?"

And I felt the way they showed her accident was VERY powerful because it's almost exactly how we would experience it. One moment we're conscious and serene, and then a hard cut to the next moment we regain consciousness in the middle of the impact. It was *excellent.*

 

[Lothar]

Enjoying compelling TV about bad people is not the same as endorsing bad behavior though. But that's a whole separate issue from rooting for them. If you LIKED Walt at the end of BB I don't know what to say about that other than... that's fucked up?

They wanted you to like Walt at the end of BB though. I recommend listening to the last BB podcast. They were thinking "What would be a satisfying ending?" and came to conclusion that it would be Walt succeeding on some level. Even though he doesn't deserve it, you still want it nonetheless. Like Walt, you don't want it all to be for nothing.

Can't blame anyone for being confused or siding with Walt over Skyler after hearing them talk like that.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The ending of this episode I'm still conflicted on... it was definitely a realistic thing that could happen, but I didn't see it coming at all. I'm really curious where they're going with it.

How did you (or anyone) not see it coming? Her being overworked and extremely exhausted has been a recurring theme the entire season.

I called that she'd fall asleep while they showed her driving, about 2 seconds before the cut to the crash, hah. I just said "uh oh, she's gonna fall asleep..." then BAM.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

How did you (or anyone) not see it coming? Her being overworked and extremely exhausted has been a recurring theme the entire season.

I called that she'd fall asleep while they showed her driving, about 2 seconds before the cut to the crash, hah. I just said "uh oh, she's gonna fall asleep..." then BAM.

Now that you mention it, did Francesca ever get Kim that coffee refill she asked for?

 

[Fuu]

They wanted you to like Walt at the end of BB though. I recommend listening to the last BB podcast. They were thinking "What would be a satisfying ending?" and came to conclusion that it would be Walt succeeding on some level. Even though he doesn't deserve it, you still want it nonetheless. Like Walt, you don't want it all to be for nothing.

Can't blame anyone for being confused or siding with Walt over Skyler after hearing them talk like that.

The argument comes from people using "like" in two different ways when it comes to fiction – one is related to enjoying a character because he's well-written, the other is a more personal meaning that you'd use for people that you live with in real life. A lot of viewers seem to confuse to two too. Rooting for Walt to succeed and liking him as a character doesn't mean you like him as a person and would endorse what he does in a real life situation.

 

[RNG]

Now that you mention it, did Francesca ever get Kim that coffee refill she asked for?

Yup, but she didn't drink it.

 

[takriel]

Dat ice-cold Gus pokerface. Jesus.

 

[Trakan]

Doesn't everyone like Jimmy and Gus in that sense though? I believe everyone appreciates these characters in regards to them being interesting, well-written and well-acted. Responses like "fuck Chuck" and "I hate Jimmy" are just emotional reactions, and those just mean that the show is doing its job in affecting the viewer in different ways.

I don't know, maybe. It's just that reactions like "I had to pause the show" don't happen to me.

 

[Veelk]

I still subscribe that being on #TeamAnybody and trying to root for a character is for the birds.

A story is not a gambling ring or sports event. There's no reason to get on anyone's side and it only prejudices you to having the story move in a particular direction that isn't necessary.

I have emotional investment in all the characters and care about they're all doing. You don't need to root for anyone to get that.

 

[kevin1025]

Is Kim going to pull a Whiplash and show up to the meeting anyway?

That Jimmy move on poor Irene, man... I think it'll backfire in some way, where she lets slip that he said to follow her heart or something.

 

[SuperBanana]

I'm surprised people are shocked by what Jimmy did. This is his breaking bad. Literally. Remember, by the end of this he's a sleazy lawyer who represents drug dealers and launders money for a drug lord and probably an accessory to murder and other things. Just like Walt he's started as a tragic character who you sympathize because even the bad things he does comes from a place of good intent but turns to the dark side. The old lady was his version of letting Jane die. He's turned bad.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Is Kim going to pull a Whiplash and show up to the meeting anyway?

That Jimmy move on poor Irene, man... I think it'll backfire in some way, where she lets slip that he said to follow her heart or something.

Or that she'll try to drop the suit or something in an attempt to make things "back to the way they were." That would be implausible in real life, but less likely things have happened in the BB/BCS universe.

 

[riotous]

Or that she'll try to drop the suit or something in an attempt to make things "back to the way they were."

Yeah as soon as she said that I thought that might be what happens.

I think it will cause Kim to split too; she pays attention to details and will wonder how Jimmy "knew" it was going to settle. It might not settle, which would really tip her off, but even if it does she's going to grill Jimmy on it.

All kinds of things are possible IMO; hell Irene could die the same night.

 

[kevin1025]

Or that she'll try to drop the suit or something in an attempt to make things "back to the way they were." That would be implausible in real life, but less likely things have happened in the BB/BCS universe.

Yeah, my thinking is that she'll go there and want to settle, the one in charge will get Hamlin to try and talk her down and she'll say, "well, Jimmy thinks it's a good idea." Then they'll get him on manipulating a class action suit while suspended.

 

[Fuu]

I still subscribe that being on #TeamAnybody and trying to root for a character is for the birds.

A story is not a gambling ring or sports event. There's no reason to get on anyone's side and it only prejudices you to having the story move in a particular direction that isn't necessary.

I have emotional investment in all the characters and care about they're all doing. You don't need to root for anyone to get that.

I take the use of root in these contexts to mean wanting to see the character keep going. In the case of Walt, if he fails he'll either go to jail or die, which would mean the viewer wouldn't be able to continue accompanying his antics. So it makes sense to want him to succeed in a broader sense.

But I do agree with you. I also don't feel the need to take sides when it comes to fiction.

 

[Christhor]

WHAT

You could vaguely argue that he had may have surface level been genuine to have their bests interests in mind, but it's debatable if it was his own greed like Hamlin said or real care. The episode implies the former. Either way he completely screwed over a completely innocent person for his own purposes.

Nothing wrong. Irene will be able to make her friends back, but he was just looking out for them, as they were all being taken advantage of by HHM. It's very likely that some of them would have died before even getting their money, just so that HHM would get a lot more. It's hard to sympathize when she was letting lawyers take advantage of herself and her friends.