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Better Call Saul S3 |OT| Gus Who's Back - Mondays 10/9c on AMC

D

DoubleYou

Member
Human Trashcan said:
Enjoying compelling TV about bad people is not the same as endorsing bad behavior though. But that's a whole separate issue from rooting for them. If you LIKED Walt at the end of BB I don't know what to say about that other than... that's fucked up?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty good at separating fiction from reality, so when I say I like a character that does awful things, I'm well aware that I'm liking a fictional character that does awful things. And that makes all the difference.

I don't know man. I feel like the whole point of Walter White was that he could convince people (and also himself) that he was still a decent human being. Including the viewer. That to me was the beauty of BB. And everyone in the show that fell for it, had to pay the price in the end. It's like how the worst people in history are always the most charismatic. And in the end, those that fall for it pay the price. Not to say that Walt was such a charismatic person to the people around him. But to me as a viewer he was, because you could see a man struggling with his morality, time and time again he wasn't able to see how much damage he was causing. He didn't want to see. And so, I forgave him, again and again. And in the end you feel tricked, but as a viewer I really enjoyed that process a lot. Maybe that's fucked up. But it's fiction so I don't really care. ;)
 
I

Ithil

Member
Isolating and emotionally devastating an old lady that trusted him completely is by far the worst thing Jimmy's done on this whole show, just for the sheer calculating, unfeeling planning that had to go into it, and of course that he went off celebrating afterwards without a care.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
DoubleYou said:
I'm pretty good at separating fiction from reality, so when I say I like a character that does awful things, I'm well aware that I'm liking a fictional character that does awful things. And that makes all the difference.
Click to expand...

I heavily disagree with this sentiment because I think most people, while watching the show, are immersed in the world of it and believe it to the extent that they are engaged with it. Maybe others just watch it differently, but I would not be able to enjoy any stories if the fact that they are fake was something that stood out to me at every frame. If you are watching Breaking bad and fully engaged with it, you're not thinking about how it's actually Bryan Cranston reciting lines off a script. You're seeing Walter White and buying into the fiction that there is man who is making meth. Or if your not, I just don't understand how any kind of fiction doesn't drive you insane since you're constantly aware that these are all people acting and pretending to be something they're not. What's even the point then? Why watch a bunch of people being inauthentic?

And in any case, it being a fictional event doesn't mean moral rules don't apply because moral rules themselves are abstract social concepts, not tangible things. The action of murdering my neighbor is repellent not because it happens or doesn't happen, but because it's an action idealogically rooted in disrespecting of the sanctity of life. You're right in that fiction is a sort of safe space where you can enjoy some darker urges without actually hurting anyone, so I'm not gonna moralize over a person liking Walt, but examining why you like a murderous sociopath is probably something that you should atleast be self reflective of.
 
C

Chumley

Banned
75% sure Chuck does something stupid from overconfidence in his newfound desire to get better, or something insane from a breakdown, and dies via gas lantern burning his house down next week.

Also even more certain about Kim just leaving the job behind from too much stress and distancing herself from Jimmy because she sees what he's becoming, maybe moves to a different state, and the show ends with him trying to make amends with her post-Cinnabon.
 
M

minor effort

Banned
Chumley said:
75% sure Chuck does something stupid from overconfidence in his newfound desire to get better, or something insane from a breakdown, and dies via gas lantern burning his house down next week.
Click to expand...

Part of me thinks there's no way an episode entitled "Lantern" can be that on-the-nose.

Then again, "Face Off".
 
D

DoubleYou

Member
Veelk said:
I heavily disagree with this sentiment because I think most people, while watching the show, are immersed in the world of it and believe it to the extent that they are engaged with it. Maybe others just watch it differently, but I would not be able to enjoy any stories if the fact that they are fake was something that stood out to me at every frame. If you are watching Breaking bad and fully engaged with it, you're not thinking about how it's actually Bryan Cranston reciting lines off a script. You're seeing Walter White and buying into the fiction that there is man who is making meth. Or if your not, I just don't understand how any kind of fiction doesn't drive you insane since you're constantly aware that these are all people acting and pretending to be something they're not. What's even the point then? Why watch a bunch of people being inauthentic?

And in any case, it being a fictional event doesn't mean moral rules don't apply because moral rules themselves are abstract social concepts, not tangible things. The action of murdering my neighbor is repellent not because it happens or doesn't happen, but because it's an action idealogically rooted in disrespecting of the sanctity of life. You're right in that fiction is a sort of safe space where you can enjoy some darker urges without actually hurting anyone, so I'm not gonna moralize over a person liking Walt, but examining why you like a murderous sociopath is probably something that you should atleast be self reflective of.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree in a sense, but it's not like you are 100% immersed. I wouldn't be able to witness a murder in real life, but in a TV show, however immersed, I am able to put it in perspective rather quickly. And luckily so.

And in the case of Walt, it's not that I enjoyed or approved of his actions. I just really liked how his character was constantly able to delude himself in thinking he was a decent human being. And I find that he was so well written/performed that at times he was able to delude me too. And sure, that might say something about me. But that doesn't mean I would be easily deluded by a murderous sociopath in real life. In a way, because I know that it's fiction, it's like I choose to be misled by some fictional character because I know it won't do harm to anyone. I guess it's just more fun to me that way.
 
S

Servbot24

Banned
Morrigan Stark said:
How did you (or anyone) not see it coming? Her being overworked and extremely exhausted has been a recurring theme the entire season.

I called that she'd fall asleep while they showed her driving, about 2 seconds before the cut to the crash, hah. I just said "uh oh, she's gonna fall asleep..." then BAM.
Click to expand...

I thought about it while she was driving, but I dismissed it because I thought the writers were too good to do the generic car slams in from the side shot. Turns out they did have a crash but without using the cliche shot :p
 
E

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Random car crash because someone else fucked up is cliche, yeah, but this has been setup the whole season. You really couldn't ask for more, they did all the legwork for this to not feel like it came out of nowhere.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
- NY Times interview: Need a Bad Brother? Better Call Michael McKean
How did you get involved with “Better Call Saul”?

I was working with Bryan Cranston in “All the Way.” We were about to make an entrance together — I was Hoover, he was L. B. J. — and he says to me, “You should play the brother in ‘Better Call Saul.’ I was like ‘What?,’ and it was time to go on. I’m doing the scene and I can’t think of what Hoover’s supposed to say.

I worked with Vince Gilligan on “The X-Files,” and every time he had a new project he would call me about stuff, but I was working on something else. Then he and Peter [Gould, the creators of “Better Call Saul”] called me up and I said, “Yeah, of course.”

What did you know about Chuck when you signed on?

Chuck was originally invented just to give Jimmy someone to care about, a reason for being other than just the short con. Then Peter and Vince saw us together and decided they didn’t want it to just be the bland older brother who plays by the rules. Around the seventh or eighth episode, they called me and said: “You know what? We’re gonna reveal Chuck for who he really is.” So a guy who was maybe an object of pity suddenly became an antagonist.

Where does Chuck’s contempt come from?

The phrase I came up with was, “I made Mom proud; Jimmy made her laugh.” It’s that thing — that elusive affection. Chuck was the perfect son, so why doesn’t he feel like he’s perfect? And the thorn in his side is the presence of this guy, the screw-up that everybody loves.
Click to expand...
More via the link.
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
Fuu said:
I take the use of root in these contexts to mean wanting to see the character keep going. In the case of Walt, if he fails he'll either go to jail or die, which would mean the viewer wouldn't be able to continue accompanying his antics. So it makes sense to want him to succeed in a broader sense.

But I do agree with you. I also don't feel the need to take sides when it comes to fiction.
Click to expand...

I wanted Walt to build an empire and I want Jimmy to become Saul. It's a tv show and I'm a viewer. I can watch with whatever mindset I want and so can you.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Ithil said:
Isolating and emotionally devastating an old lady that trusted him completely is by far the worst thing Jimmy's done on this whole show, just for the sheer calculating, unfeeling planning that had to go into it, and of course that he went off celebrating afterwards without a care.
Click to expand...

This is where I disagree. It's reprehensible, yes. But is it worse than:

[ ] extorting the county treasurer to hire him? (ep 1)
[ ] getting Tuco to break the twins' legs instead of hurting him? (ep 2)
[ ] staging the rescue of a billboard painter? (ep 4)
[ ] jimmy promoting himself in an elderly home? (ep 5)
[ ]




[ ] planting / manipulating evidence?
[ ]

i was in the middle of this post and got bored by going through each episode looking for this long stretch of increasingly problematic behavior, esp. around the elderly -- remember using the old lady to film the commercial, using the fake old veteran, lying to the air force guy so he could use the plane as a prop, and on and on and on. dude's been scum since day 1.

all of you are letting the terrible sight of an old lady crying blind you from the obvious. we're looking at a man who betrayed his brother by manipulating evidence, and when caught, destroys his brother's career in front of his brother's ex wife. Irene was not the moment you started hating Jimmy, it's the moment you decided to notice he's a piece of shit.
 
H

Human Trashcan

Banned
Sunster said:
I wanted Walt to build an empire and I want Jimmy to become Saul. It's a tv show and I'm a viewer. I can watch with whatever mindset I want and so can you.
Click to expand...

But that's gonna happen anyway and the drama comes from the obstacles in the way to that point, so what's the point of rooting for anyone instead of leaving yourself at the mercy of the showrunners and trusting that they're gonna tell a good story? Sure you CAN watch it like it's a sport but you're getting in your own way and in the way of enjoying all facets of the story, not just the ones that directly lead to the protagonist getting from A to B.
 
D

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
I like how they are turning things upside down. I bet by the end of next season every fuck Chucker is gonna be all poor Chuck and Jimmy will be the bad guy.
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
Human Trashcan said:
But that's gonna happen anyway and the drama comes from the obstacles in the way to that point, so what's the point of rooting for anyone instead of leaving yourself at the mercy of the showrunners and trusting that they're gonna tell a good story? Sure you CAN watch it like it's a sport but you're getting in your own way and in the way of enjoying all facets of the story, not just the ones that directly lead to the protagonist getting from A to B.
Click to expand...

I don't want to put aside my feelings as a sort of thought exercise for 45 minutes though. I want to watch a scripted drama and let loose. It doesn't need to be so serious. I totally understand where you are coming from and I see the benefit. But that's not the only way to watch. people can want specific things and talk about them. I am enjoying the show just like you.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Trakan said:
I agree, and they would have at least talked to Irene about the issue before disowning her.

Sure, bring on whatever. He already slit a guy's throat himself so nothing will make me dislike him. He's a good actor and great bad guy.
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Gustavo Fring might even have Nazi ties -- the CIA and Simon Wiesenthal thought Josef Mengele was hiding out at this torture/detention center in Chile at one point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Baviera
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
Cornballer said:
This YahooTV feature (Ask the Fans: ‘Better Call Saul’ Showrunner Wants Your Answers to These 8 Questions!) is overall kinda dumb, but I'm curious what people think about the last question:I suppose it'd depend on the kind of legal trouble I was in.
Click to expand...

Hamlin. Kim would be my girl but she seems to have a lot on her plate right now. Hamlin's got a whole firm. I know my case wouldn't be a priority with him like it would be with Kim but it seems like a safer bet
given the last episode's events.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
(The yahoo question has me considering how each would land on the DND character alignment spectrum)

(Starting with Jimmy as chaotic good and Saul as Chaotic Evil)
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Lawful Good: Kim
Neutral Good:
Chaotic Good: Jimmy

Lawful Neutral: Hamlin
True Neutral: Mike
Chaotic Neutral:

Lawful Evil: Chuck
Neutral Evil: Nacho
Chaotic Evil: Saul
 
jobrro

jobrro

Member
Just watching Beverly Hills Cop for the first time and was shocked to see and hear a young Jonathan Banks/Mike. The face was different though familiar but the voice was unmistakable.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Chumley said:
75% sure Chuck does something stupid from overconfidence in his newfound desire to get better, or something insane from a breakdown, and dies via gas lantern burning his house down next week.

Also even more certain about Kim just leaving the job behind from too much stress and distancing herself from Jimmy because she sees what he's becoming, maybe moves to a different state, and the show ends with him trying to make amends with her post-Cinnabon.
Click to expand...

You know, I had never once considered that this show would wrap up its "prequel story" during its run, only to then move post-BB.

But that's exactly what Vince Gilligan would do, and it would be amazing television.
 
D

duckroll

Member
PantherLotus said:
all of you are letting the terrible sight of an old lady crying blind you from the obvious. we're looking at a man who betrayed his brother by manipulating evidence, and when caught, destroys his brother's career in front of his brother's ex wife. Irene was not the moment you started hating Jimmy, it's the moment you decided to notice he's a piece of shit.
Click to expand...

But most people watching the show don't like his brother. He's a stuck up self-righteous dickwad! The airforce guy was a young entitled douche who is loud and rude! Little old ladies are innocent, adorable, and shouldn't be hurt!

This would be the same if Jimmy scammed a family with a little girl and made the parents mad at the girl for something she didn't actually do, and she ends up crying. Lol.

Jimmy is a scumbag but this is the first time he hurt someone who was like a little puppy! Etc.
 
C

Chumley

Banned
HP_Wuvcraft said:
You know, I had never once considered that this show would wrap up its "prequel story" during its run, only to then move post-BB.

But that's exactly what Vince Gilligan would do, and it would be amazing television.
Click to expand...

Since Season 1 that always seemed like the end game plan with the flash forwards. He did the same thing in S5 of BB and then the very last episode picked up from where the most recent flash forward ended.
 
S

Socreges

Banned
Chumley said:
Since Season 1 that always seemed like the end game plan with the flash forwards. He did the same thing in S5 of BB and then the very last episode picked up from where the most recent flash forward ended.
Click to expand...
Seems like a contingency plan. I'm sure AMC encouraged it. ie, what if the show is as successful as BB? Otherwise the show has a finite time period, exhausted despite possible success.

Could also serve as an epilogue to a final season; a way of finishing Jimmy's story. Doing an entire season or more post-BB might be tough depending on how plausible it is to bring back some of the same characters. But I guess they can contrive whatever they want.
 
C

Chumley

Banned
Socreges said:
Seems like a contingency plan. I'm sure AMC encouraged it. ie, what if the show is as successful as BB? Otherwise the show has a finite time period, exhausted despite possible success.

Could also serve as an epilogue to a final season; a way of finishing Jimmy's story. Doing an entire season or more post-BB might be tough depending on how plausible it is to bring back some of the same characters. But I guess they can contrive whatever they want.
Click to expand...

I think they probably just do one episode post-BB, two at most. Could even see the show wrapping up altogether next season, it doesn't feel like they have that much ground to cover to complete the Saul transition. Mike is already basically right where he was when BB started.
 
S

sinkfla87

Member
Man I really don't want to have to wait forever for season 4. I've defended Jimmy a lot throughout the series but I can't do that anymore. This episode made me legitimately hate him. As embarrassing as this may sound to some, I actually started to tear up when Irene was crying :(. Maybe I could relate to her in some way, maybe her mannerisms and kindness reminded me of my late grandmother but I'm completely aboard the "Fuck Jimmy" train now.

Kudos to the team for making me feel real compassion for a side character who has barely been in the show.

Oh and who else thinks the episode title might be a misdirect and instead we'll lose
Nacho?
I really hope they don't go that route though :(.
 
R

Rastafarian42

Member
The Birth of Saul Goodman this man came with the super finesse with Irene and her inner social circle. I could tell once Kim stopped blinking she would end up crashing in her car damn man feel really bad for her she was really pushing it with this case.
 
K

Klocker

Member
Fuu said:
"Making an old lady cry" is an oversimplification of what he did. He took advantage of her confidence knowing his actions would potentially ruin whatever little happiness she had in her routine. He used gullible and fragile people, and the circle of friends Irene exercised with and played bingo with turned their backs on her due to false information he planted. His victim is framed as a fully innocent person and his actions this time didn't feel like hijinks done with good intentions, lack of foresight or in the heat of the moment, like it's often the case with the character.

Animal cruelty and taking advantage of old people or children is usually what crosses the line for a lot of people, and for good reason. I still find Jimmy to be a very interesting character, but the show is on its way of turning him into a complete jackass and there's no denying that on more than one level this situation is supposed to be different from the ones that he caused before.

That said, none of these characters need to be likable, they only need to be engaging. A character being unlikable isn't a problem in fiction, the problem is when they become uninteresting, and thankfully Jimmy is far from that.
Click to expand...

Great observations
 
D

Donos

Member
Rastafarian42 said:
The Birth of Saul Goodman this man came with the super finesse with Irene and her inner social circle. I could tell once Kim stopped blinking she would end up crashing in her car damn man feel really bad for her she was really pushing it with this case.
Click to expand...

It was shot beautifuly. Nice edit and not the usual "see car coming from the side" crash. There were two second where it was like "zone mode" before the crash and my mind was saying "something is up" right when it happened.

I rather think that Kim is going away, out of NA eg. than dying. Still because of Jimmy though.
 
T

TCRS

Banned
I knew something was going to happen with Kim. Also with HHM tearing itself apart I wonder if and how both, Kim and HHM, will disappear by the end of BCS.

Also I just realized that Jim and Kims assistant is also Jims assistant in BB.

Jim becoming more of a pos every episode. I just understand how he can be like this, with a brother like Chuck and parents that never did anything wrong. But Jim, he was just born a pos and just can't get better. Giving up that gig at Davis and Main? WHY? What the fuck is wrong with this guy?
 
N

niemant77

Neo Member
Donos said:
It was shot beautifuly. Nice edit and not the usual "see car coming from the side" crash. There were two second where it was like "zone mode" before the crash and my mind was saying "something is up" right when it happened.

I rather think that Kim is going away, out of NA eg. than dying. Still because of Jimmy though.
Click to expand...


Can it be possible that her client will sue her for her "no-show"? and the loss of money aka taxes he probably has to pay now? What I am going after is the fact that all of Jimmys good intentions and tricks he did for Kim are going to backfire, starting with the Chuck manoeuvre that he did for her benefit
 
MisterFalcon

MisterFalcon

Member
Chumley said:
The car accident makes the possibility of that happening almost nil.

Though maybe Gilligan is thinking we think that and will throw a curve ball. But I doubt it.
Click to expand...

Vince Gilligan in the last podcast mentioned his girlfriend's reaction to Kim's crash and she went "if you kill Kim I'll murder all of you".
 
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