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Black Mesa Source |OT| Do you know who ate all the donuts?

jediyoshi

jediyoshi

Member
Teknoman said:
Is there a really nice steam grid icon for this?
Click to expand...

Whipped up one myself

untitled-1rwugw.png


Few towards the bottom of here
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=477211&page=19
 
K

King of Cups

Member
Berto said:
Am i the only one that always loved Xen? All that psychedelic, ethereal and ominous atmosphere... so good.
Click to expand...

I feel those are mutually exclusive things regarding Xen though. The concept of Xen is VERY intriguing. The execution...not so much. That's why I'm pretty excited to see what the BM team have in store for us. Given the changes they've made to some of the original's layout thus far, I have faith they can really give us the Xen we should have had all along.

There's a difference between being faithful and giving it the proper attention.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
Eyothrie said:
So this isn't even complete? Why release? lol
Click to expand...
Good timing to coincide with Greenlight, not being sure they're able to finish the rest of the work, releasing 85% of the game is better than releasing 0%. I mean, the thing has been in development for 7 years.

That said, I think the game is better off without Xen, so yeah. :p
 
T

Teknoman

Member
Aw they didnt do the Ichthyosaur scene in the test chamber (or am I confusing that with HL2)?

Also anyone else catch that early conversation with 3 scientists in a room, about "recreating a classic experiment using today's technology"? Nice self referential stuff right there.
 
G

gabbo

Member
Teknoman said:
Aw they didnt do the Ichthyosaur scene in the test chamber (or am I confusing that with HL2)?
Click to expand...

That was the scariest section of the original game (you're not confusing it with HL2) and I was really looking forward to seeing it in Source.... Fuck.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
gabbo said:
That was the scariest section of the original game (you're not confusing it with HL2) and I was really looking forward to seeing it in Source.... Fuck.
Click to expand...

No, you guys are confusing that with HL2. In HL2, when you try to take the teleporter, there's that part where you're dropped into the ocean and an Icthyosaur swims at you. This was not HL1. You don't see Icthyosaurs until that waterlogged section.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
jambo said:
Eh, I still enjoy FPS platforming.
Click to expand...

So do I, but upon replay I find Residue Processing drags on for far too long with almost nothing interesting going on. It's the most basic of basic 3D platforming and puzzling (aka: timing damage). Plus the whole area is ugly as fuck. But I've never been fond of over industrialised areas.

Nearly finished Questionable Ethics. The modern coat of paint really, really shines here. The entire complex looks gorgeous. Great blues, very atmospheric lighting, and lots of details. Combined with the sound design, they really nailed the feeling of a once busy, noisy lab now hauntingly quiet and dangerous. Very cool.

Except for the marine battles, which were total shit. The combat in this game is rubbish and sets it behind the original game for me. I can imagine coding AI is very difficult so I'm not surprised it's the one big area they dropped the ball, and I don't really hold it against them given it's a free project. But it's definitely the line preventing this from being a truly exceptional Half-Life replacement.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
EatChildren, maybe I missed it, but what difficulty are you playing on? I'm wondering if the complaints about combat come from normal or hard difficulty, and I'm thinking I might just go through on easy (which I seem to recall is default).
 
J

Jintor

Member
The complaints come because they're aimbotting hackbots and it's not as fun to fight them as it used to be. Whether they kill you or not is a little besides the point imho. Well, they will, but given that difficulty only adjusts health and damage, they're still no fun to fight.
 
L

LiK

Member
EatChildren said:
So do I, but upon replay I find Residue Processing drags on for far too long with almost nothing interesting going on. It's the most basic of basic 3D platforming and puzzling (aka: timing damage). Plus the whole area is ugly as fuck. But I've never been fond of over industrialised areas.

Nearly finished Questionable Ethics. The modern coat of paint really, really shines here. The entire complex looks gorgeous. Great blues, very atmospheric lighting, and lots of details. Combined with the sound design, they really nailed the feeling of a once busy, noisy lab now hauntingly quiet and dangerous. Very cool.

Except for the marine battles, which were total shit. The combat in this game is rubbish and sets it behind the original game for me. I can imagine coding AI is very difficult so I'm not surprised it's the one big area they dropped the ball, and I don't really hold it against them given it's a free project. But it's definitely the line preventing this from being a truly exceptional Half-Life replacement.
Click to expand...

one of my least favorite parts of HL1. will not enjoy returning there.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Blizzard said:
EatChildren, maybe I missed it, but what difficulty are you playing on? I'm wondering if the complaints about combat come from normal or hard difficulty, and I'm thinking I might just go through on easy (which I seem to recall is default).
Click to expand...

I'm on normal.

The problem is the way they've coded the AI is completely at odds with run and gun gameplay. Run and gameplay is all about telegraphing attacks and movement, and the delay between attack function and attack damage.

In Half-Life this was done by having the Vorts and Houndeyes deal pretty solid damage, but also have an obvious and avoidable charge up time. When you saw and heard a Vort charge, you'd immediately start moving quickly in hopes that they'd miss their shot. Marines always had hitscan weapons and did a lot of damage, but they moved quickly, often firing in bursts then retreating to cover. It encouraged you to keep moving yourself, to flank them, and outsmart them through speed and accuracy.

Black Mesa has none of that. Both the Vort and Houndeye charge up times appear to have been decreased, meaning there's less telegraphing and more instantaneous attacks. The damage they deal isn't too troublesome, but you're less likely to avoid the attack. Marines are worse. They have an extremely high reaction time, meaning they spot you very quickly over a very long distances. Their accuracy is aimbot levels of annoyance, so as soon as you're (quickly) spotted they'll lock on and fill you full of lead. Because, unlike Half-Life, they're not programmed to burst fire, run around, and make good use of cover, they just kinda stand there firing round after round after round with instant, perfect accuracy.

It means pretty much every combat encounter with marines is shaped to exploitive, cheap play. How fast you move and mastery of athletics is now irrelevant. What matters is that you get the shot in first, accurately, with as much damage as possible and preferably before they're allowed to attack. It has more in common with trial-and-error stop and pop shooters than the run and gun glory of Half-Life.

Some might disagree, and it is manageable, but it's the most glaring flaw with the mod and the point where it feels quite distant from its source material.
 
G

gabbo

Member
Hylian7 said:
No, you guys are confusing that with HL2. In HL2, when you try to take the teleporter, there's that part where you're dropped into the ocean and an Icthyosaur swims at you. This was not HL1. You don't see Icthyosaurs until that waterlogged section.
Click to expand...

Technically that water logged section was a test chamber of sorts, but fair enough.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
max-pain said:
You will hate Surface Tension:)
Click to expand...

I'm (not) looking forward to it.

On another note, is BMS the first time a major, full retail game has been practically entirely remade with high quality assets in a modern engine? "Remake X in engine Y!" is always the first call to arms for modders/fans, and it never comes to fruition. Yet here we are, Half-Life in it's glory, remade in Source.
 
M

MrBig

Member
EatChildren said:
I'm (not) looking forward to it.

On another note, is BMS the first time a major, full retail game has been practically entirely remade with high quality assets in a modern engine? "Remake X in engine Y!" is always the first call to arms for modders/fans, and it never comes to fruition. Yet here we are, Half-Life in it's glory, remade in Source.
Click to expand...

You could hardly call Source a modern engine anymore, and it took them 7+ years as they fell into the same production hole as any other modding group, but yeah. They did a great job.
 
O

Oxigen_Waste

Banned
Nice! Haven't played HL in 12 years was thinking 'bout giving it another go and this comes out! Hooray!!!

Anyway, couple of questions:

- I have Left4Dead 1 and 2 installed. That means I don't have to install any of that source engine thingie, right?

- Will the last chapters be getting released anytime soon or shall I just install the original and boot up a saved game somewhere from the internets?
 
B

brian577

Banned
Experiencing significant framerate drops around large amounts of dust/smoke. Any particular setting I could lower to improve performance?
 
L

Ledsen

Member
EatChildren said:
I'm on normal.

The problem is the way they've coded the AI is completely at odds with run and gun gameplay. Run and gameplay is all about telegraphing attacks and movement, and the delay between attack function and attack damage.

In Half-Life this was done by having the Vorts and Houndeyes deal pretty solid damage, but also have an obvious and avoidable charge up time. When you saw and heard a Vort charge, you'd immediately start moving quickly in hopes that they'd miss their shot. Marines always had hitscan weapons and did a lot of damage, but they moved quickly, often firing in bursts then retreating to cover. It encouraged you to keep moving yourself, to flank them, and outsmart them through speed and accuracy.

Black Mesa has none of that. Both the Vort and Houndeye charge up times appear to have been decreased, meaning there's less telegraphing and more instantaneous attacks. The damage they deal isn't too troublesome, but you're less likely to avoid the attack. Marines are worse. They have an extremely high reaction time, meaning they spot you very quickly over a very long distances. Their accuracy is aimbot levels of annoyance, so as soon as you're (quickly) spotted they'll lock on and fill you full of lead. Because, unlike Half-Life, they're not programmed to burst fire, run around, and make good use of cover, they just kinda stand there firing round after round after round with instant, perfect accuracy.

It means pretty much every combat encounter with marines is shaped to exploitive, cheap play. How fast you move and mastery of athletics is now irrelevant. What matters is that you get the shot in first, accurately, with as much damage as possible and preferably before they're allowed to attack. It has more in common with trial-and-error stop and pop shooters than the run and gun glory of Half-Life.

Some might disagree, and it is manageable, but it's the most glaring flaw with the mod and the point where it feels quite distant from its source material.
Click to expand...

This makes me a bit hesitant to play the mod. The combat being bad is a pretty big deal, since it was so awesome in the original (especially against humans).
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Ledsen said:
This makes me a bit hesitant to play the mod. The combat being bad is a pretty big deal, since it was so awesome in the original (especially against humans).
Click to expand...

I'm making it sound worse than it is by over analysing why it isn't as good :p. It's functional and not as tedious as I'm making it out to be, sans a handful of cheap encounters. It's just not anywhere near as tight as the original game.
 
eot

eot

Banned
EatChildren said:
The damage they deal isn't too troublesome, but you're less likely to avoid the attack. Marines are worse. They have an extremely high reaction time, meaning they spot you very quickly over a very long distances. Their accuracy is aimbot levels of annoyance, so as soon as you're (quickly) spotted they'll lock on and fill you full of lead. Because, unlike Half-Life, they're not programmed to burst fire, run around, and make good use of cover, they just kinda stand there firing round after round after round with instant, perfect accuracy.

It means pretty much every combat encounter with marines is shaped to exploitive, cheap play. How fast you move and mastery of athletics is now irrelevant. What matters is that you get the shot in first, accurately, with as much damage as possible and preferably before they're allowed to attack. It has more in common with trial-and-error stop and pop shooters than the run and gun glory of Half-Life.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The way you notice HECU soldiers in this game is, nine out of ten times, the damage indicator lighting up, then you look around and try to spot the muzzle flash, peek around corners and try to get off 1-2 shot kills without taking too much damage. In the original you'd often hear their radio chatter before you saw them, or you'd just spot them running somewhere because that's something they did a lot. They flanked, repositioned and even retreated. Their lethality was lower not just because of their lower accuracy, but because in any given encounter they spent less time shooting you, opening up room for you to move around, chase them and in turn be chased by them. The fact that they weren't shooting you most of the time is what made them great enemies, because they were expressive with their other actions.

That's the thing about the AI in Half-Life, it's not good in a sense that it's tactically proficient or efficient. It's good AI because it creates fun encounters. In BMS it's hard to even get a grenade off because you can scarcely afford to peek your head out for that long. Actually giving chase to the grunts is out of the question. It's the same problem the Combine in HL2 had, something they tried to address with the Hunters in EP2 and I think those were a step forward.

This is the same encounter in HL1 and BMS, although it's two different people playing I think it shows the difference quite well.
 
J

Jintor

Member
I want to say that you can hear radio chatter very frequently - it's how I know what weapons to be holding (you want MP5 for the impact grenade burst and the shotty/magnum else)

You're correct about everything else though.
 
J

JNT

Member
EatChildren said:
Some might disagree, and it is manageable, but it's the most glaring flaw with the mod and the point where it feels quite distant from its source material.
Click to expand...
I'm with you 100%. I was on normal too and the marines just kept pounding me (lol). Most of the time I would try to find cover and either camp and wait for the marines to come to me and say hello to a shotgun blast to the face or I would creep out of cover until I could see some small pixel of the enemies and hit them with the magnum.

Also, I found it pretty annoying that you basically had to jump-crouch to get over small obstacles. I can't remember needing to do that nearly as much in the original.
 
B

BakedPigeon

Banned
Forgive me if this has been brought up but I am playing this game on a pretty crappy and dated PC..... and DX8 is my only option for a somewhat smooth experience.

I get a white diagonal line across my screen though and its quite annoying. There are also other bugs but this is the only one I really cannot live with. Has anyone figured out how to get this to go away or is it something that cant be fixed.
 
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