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BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II |OT| The Sequel Blue Me Away
- Thread starter sixteen-bit
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SolarPowered
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kiunchbb said:
Are you guys holding out?DY_nasty said:
I want to see the tragedy unfold in real time too. I already got over the fact that Bang is gonna get his ass handed to him.:lol
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
kiunchbb said:
Broken? Do any of you even take the game seriously and understand how shit works at high level? The game is far from broken, suuuuuuuuuper far from it, looks better balanced than ct and cs1.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
SolarPowered said:
He snagged Makoto and Valkenhayn because of the sale.
I may bring him along for some matches with the 360BB GAF crew.
SolarPowered
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Arakune is just one blob in a Bang's world, man. The game is still going to have good matchups and close games between most people anyway.kiunchbb said:
Who do you main?
I'd be up for it. I'll make sure not to go overboard with the commentary while we're at it.:lolThe Take Out Bandit said:
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XisBannedTier
kiunchbb said:
Which takes time to start and he has horrible match ups vs some of the cast. Which is funny to see you complain after they buffed noel so hard in this version :lol From the looks of it every character has BS now. *this is a good thing*
The Take Out Bandit
Member
SolarPowered said:
You're so articulate here, I can't picturing you turning into that Penny Arcade crazy online gamer.
Then again I don't play with a headset, and some times just listen to music on my iPod.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Mu is bad, Tao should be able to do good, hazama can be a major pain, litchi wins if she gets one good knockdown and so on =P
SolarPowered
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I like to keep myself civil on gaf. Xbl is where I like to let loose a little as long as I don't insult anyone.The Take Out Bandit said:You're so articulate here, I can't picturing you turning into that Penny Arcade crazy online gamer.
Then again I don't play with a headset, and some times just listen to music on my iPod.
Send an invite if you're looking for a match then.
sixteen-bit
Member
Delicious CS2. Thank you.USD said:
akachan ningen
Member
that arakune hakumen match was bananas.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Indeed it was, but how did hakumen win!? he should of died instantly :lolakachan ningen said:
edit: LOOOOOL AT THE COUCH :lol :lol :lol
CS2? Litchi's combos don't give 50% meter anymore and give horrible knockdown for oki outside of the corner. Mu's advantage is small if it exists partially because Arakune is less prone to being zoned now and partially because CS2 Mu is looking like crap. Tao is changing so much that it's pointless to make a call about anything regarding her right now, ditto Hazama.QisTopTier said:
Really what we know right now is that basically no one can compete with his damage and that he's no longer entirely reliant on getting curse which makes him stronger against zoning characters than he was in CS1.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Just trust me on it, oh and a ragna just beat the shit out of an arakune :lol
akachan ningen
Member
platinum is top tier confirmed. :lol
Prototype-03
Member
Fugu said:
From what I hear, Arakune is top tier for sure, but not unbeatable. It's a far cry from the top 3 in CS1. It's pretty amazing when Ragna, who is considered low tier, almost beat Arakune. You would never even imagine Rachel almost beating a Bang, Litchi, Hazama, Ragna, etc.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Litchi and Bang were the top in bbcs1 ... who won sbo again? :lol
...Which serves to represent how little of an influence tiers have on actual play (which is almost none, by the way, unless you consider how tiers influence how people select their character), but doesn't do anything to stifle the argument that Arakune's potential -- which is what tiers measure -- is great and possibly the greatest out of any character in CS2.QisTopTier said:
You said that Arakune had horrible matchups against some of the cast, which is a consensus that is all your own; I'm asking you to tell me about it because I haven't seen any evidence supporting a horrible matchup against anyone except maybe Lambda.
EDIT: There's a Rachel player in Toronto who regularly goes to town on the majority of his opponents (who play as much higher ranked characters). There's also a really good Tsubaki player. The only influence tiers have on real play conducted by humans is that they will induce selection bias, because almost no one plays their character well enough for their potential to be relevant; learning curve will always mean a whole lot more.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Shout outs to Buppa entering a 3v3 tournament AS ONE PERSON and WINNING :lol He must play his hazama all damn day :lol
edit: Well I gotta go do stuff right now but eh I'll type up all the reasons those matches are not in arakune's favor later although it's easy as hell to see why. oh and no Mu doesn't suck now she's actually better if you played her the way she was ment to be *aka stupid oki stuff*
edit: Well I gotta go do stuff right now but eh I'll type up all the reasons those matches are not in arakune's favor later although it's easy as hell to see why. oh and no Mu doesn't suck now she's actually better if you played her the way she was ment to be *aka stupid oki stuff*
Prototype-03
Member
Fugu said:
It really does matter. I mean, obviously, at low level gameplay, Tager and Noel might look like top tier, so in a sense, you're right... It depends on the player. At the same time, you cannot possibly say that Rachel, Tsubaki and Tager can match up to Bang, Litchi and even Ragna at higher level game play (which includes you).
Rachel has the traps but not damage... Tsubaki is a weird monster that needs to apply pressure, has low dmg bnbs, needs to reset a lot, no range, but has to keep distance to charge for the higher damage combos... Noel has high damage situational combos which makes her a high risk/high reward character but her crappy normals makes her a bad character.
Now look at the high tiers... Bang, Litchi, Ragna... They all do high damage mid screen, has high priority and gain ridiculous amount of meter. These three characters are high tiers with high ceiling limit but are relatively easy to pick up. In addition, Carl and Taokaka are arguably better than those 3 but are way harder to pick up... But obviously the reward is well worth it.
What I'm trying to say is that while the so called mid-upper tier characters (Carl, Taokaka) and sometimes even low tiers (MikeZ's Tager) may do well against high tiers, you cannot possibly say that tiers do NOT matter. When I lose to a Rachel, a lot of times I'm thinking "OMG, this PLAYER is so good", not "OMG, RACHEL is so good." On the other hand, when I get whooped by a Bang, I'm not only thinking "Wow, this player is really good" but I'm also thinking "that's Bang for ya." The thing is, it's really hard for me to say that Rachel, Tsubaki and Tager will win tournaments in CS1... They may go far (top 8), but I don't see them winning a tourney unless the competition is really low.
I'm not saying Rachel won't win at all... I mean, her worst matchup is 7-3 in CS1, which means that 3 out of 10, she will win when both players are equally skilled. But here's the thing... at AI, where competition is ridiculously high even during casual play, the longest win streak that I've seen is about 3. The longest streak I've seen by a Bang player was 15+. And this Rachel was awesome.
The good thing that I see from CS2 is that no one is crapstacular tier. Everyone has a fair chance at winning. Tier IS definitely less relevant in CS2 but you're trying to downplay tier list a lot more than you should. I'll be first to admit that I'm tempted to just pick up the highest tier character that I currently know how to play once CS2 comes out because it's the path with the least resistance, but you seem to be fooling yourself that Litchi has the same chance as the low to mid tier characters in CS1. Litchi is high tier and you should be proud of it because it's your time to shine. Don't see it as a hindrance but something to fuel you to say "OK, she's high tier... I NEED to make her the best I can so I can win." Just make sure that you surround yourself with good players and you WILL get better.
Watch me strut my Rachel/Tsubaki badge once CS2 comes out. I will cry in pain when the low tier characters lose to me and I KNOW they're better than me by the way they play. I'll be the first to acknowledge that tiers do play. At the same time, I'll use my character like they're the best thing in the world.
Also, I don't want to downplay matchup experience. I have a hell of a time trying to play against Tagers, Noels and Jins, but I am a superstar against Makoto and Mu (thanks Q!) who are both placed higher than those 3 in tiers. Then again, matchup experience is a whole different beast so it's for another discussion.
I would argue that Litchi's average BnB doing around 4k and Rachel's 2k attests to the lower learning curve of Litchi, considering Litchi only has to land three reasonably-sized combos to win around whereas Rachel has to land six; playing Rachel to her maximum potential means learning to play her in a way where she hit confirms six times before her opponent hit confirms three times; that's one hell of a steep hurdle to overcome.
What tier lists discuss is how frequently it is possible for that steep hurdle to be overcome independent of how steep the hurdle is or how relevant the hurdle is to real play. Litchi's brick wall hurdle (more on that below) is the difficulty involved in maintaining real pressure with her in neutral play against smart players. This hurdle isn't relevant most of the time so Litchi is strong in mid-level play, where mind games take a backseat to pure, safe pressure due to the general inability of opponents to correctly read or react. In high level play, where it is relevant, Litchi is notably flawed except when controlled by the absolute best players. Noel's hurdle is that all of her big damage combos require slow hits. Noel is played successfully everywhere except Japan despite being considered one of the worst characters in the game; why? Because she has so many strange invincibility frame quirks and such a strong AA game that the only way to beat her is to have a very strong matchup knowledge against her. Of course, once that happens, Noel becomes entirely ineffective because she can't make up for the fact that she's essentially just slow and unsafe.
High level play most certainly does not include me, but let's talk about some players that it does include. Chun and LK -- both fine Litchi players -- have both lost to MikeZ. In the United States, it is not at all rare to see Litchi lose. In fact, it is very rare to see Litchi win, and as far as I'm aware only one major American tournament has been won by a Litchi player. Why? Because Litchi's learning curve lends herself badly to the kind of baseline high level play that American players play (I describe it like this because Japanese and American players are patently a world apart at BlazBlue).
Litchi sucks ass at low level play because her gatlings are useless. She dominates mid-level play because most players aren't knowledgeable enough to know what to do against her corner oki and because her combo numbers are the largest. She's average or worse in American high-level play because without very strong fundamentals, her pressure is horribly predictable and she has very few autopilot options. The only players that see Litchi played anywhere near her potential are the Japanese high level players who are winning with her because they have the fundamentals to play Litchi at that level; what's the point in talking about potential in the context of American high level play when most American Litchi players can't even convince their opponents to eat one of the fastest overheads in the game?
Do you know who wins a lot in the US? Tager. Tager is anywhere between useless and insane at low level play because of his mobility and his huge damage. He's strong in mid-level play because he has big combos and a lot of weird quirks that require more specific knowledge to get around (AC resets and 5A -> 360A, for example). He's strong in American high-level play because he can bait and punish like virtually no other character and because his magnetism pressure is strong. It's only when you get to the Japanese high level play that Tager becomes a pile of babies because his entire game plan practically revolves on the opponent letting him in somewhere, and high level Japanese players know exactly how to keep him out.
The real relevant characteristic to everyone but top-level Japanese players is the learning curve of that character. There's no use arguing to a mid-level player that Litchi lost because her blockstrings can be reacted to when the other player actually won because said Litchi player used an overhead in the same spot every time in the string; the hypothetical flaw in Litchi's game plan has absolutely nothing to do with why the player actually lost.
By referencing a tier list after the outcome of every match, you are trivializing the victories and losses of every non-mirror match. Tier lists do not discriminate for when a character becomes difficult; they only expose that the character becomes difficult at some point along the way to playing them to their maximum potential.
I argued the exact same thing when Litchi was low tier (and occupied 3 of the top 8 in SBO, by the way) during CT and I will continue arguing the same thing wherever she is in CS2. For the record, I would describe myself as a mid-level player, where Litchi's advantage over pretty much the entire cast is as plain as day.
What tier lists discuss is how frequently it is possible for that steep hurdle to be overcome independent of how steep the hurdle is or how relevant the hurdle is to real play. Litchi's brick wall hurdle (more on that below) is the difficulty involved in maintaining real pressure with her in neutral play against smart players. This hurdle isn't relevant most of the time so Litchi is strong in mid-level play, where mind games take a backseat to pure, safe pressure due to the general inability of opponents to correctly read or react. In high level play, where it is relevant, Litchi is notably flawed except when controlled by the absolute best players. Noel's hurdle is that all of her big damage combos require slow hits. Noel is played successfully everywhere except Japan despite being considered one of the worst characters in the game; why? Because she has so many strange invincibility frame quirks and such a strong AA game that the only way to beat her is to have a very strong matchup knowledge against her. Of course, once that happens, Noel becomes entirely ineffective because she can't make up for the fact that she's essentially just slow and unsafe.
High level play most certainly does not include me, but let's talk about some players that it does include. Chun and LK -- both fine Litchi players -- have both lost to MikeZ. In the United States, it is not at all rare to see Litchi lose. In fact, it is very rare to see Litchi win, and as far as I'm aware only one major American tournament has been won by a Litchi player. Why? Because Litchi's learning curve lends herself badly to the kind of baseline high level play that American players play (I describe it like this because Japanese and American players are patently a world apart at BlazBlue).
Litchi sucks ass at low level play because her gatlings are useless. She dominates mid-level play because most players aren't knowledgeable enough to know what to do against her corner oki and because her combo numbers are the largest. She's average or worse in American high-level play because without very strong fundamentals, her pressure is horribly predictable and she has very few autopilot options. The only players that see Litchi played anywhere near her potential are the Japanese high level players who are winning with her because they have the fundamentals to play Litchi at that level; what's the point in talking about potential in the context of American high level play when most American Litchi players can't even convince their opponents to eat one of the fastest overheads in the game?
Do you know who wins a lot in the US? Tager. Tager is anywhere between useless and insane at low level play because of his mobility and his huge damage. He's strong in mid-level play because he has big combos and a lot of weird quirks that require more specific knowledge to get around (AC resets and 5A -> 360A, for example). He's strong in American high-level play because he can bait and punish like virtually no other character and because his magnetism pressure is strong. It's only when you get to the Japanese high level play that Tager becomes a pile of babies because his entire game plan practically revolves on the opponent letting him in somewhere, and high level Japanese players know exactly how to keep him out.
The real relevant characteristic to everyone but top-level Japanese players is the learning curve of that character. There's no use arguing to a mid-level player that Litchi lost because her blockstrings can be reacted to when the other player actually won because said Litchi player used an overhead in the same spot every time in the string; the hypothetical flaw in Litchi's game plan has absolutely nothing to do with why the player actually lost.
By referencing a tier list after the outcome of every match, you are trivializing the victories and losses of every non-mirror match. Tier lists do not discriminate for when a character becomes difficult; they only expose that the character becomes difficult at some point along the way to playing them to their maximum potential.
I argued the exact same thing when Litchi was low tier (and occupied 3 of the top 8 in SBO, by the way) during CT and I will continue arguing the same thing wherever she is in CS2. For the record, I would describe myself as a mid-level player, where Litchi's advantage over pretty much the entire cast is as plain as day.
Prototype-03
Member
Fugu said:
Sorry dude... I just don't agree with this. Again, you're deluding yourself that Litchi isn't top tier. I don't know why you're not admitting that Litchi is a good character. It's like you're trying to deceive yourself that Litchi is bad and you only win because of your skill. While I admit you're good, your character plays a HUGE role. If you don't believe me, please try using a lower tier character and see what happens. There's a reason why it was painstakingly bad when I use Tsubaki. Almost ALL of Litchi's moves beats Tsubaki AND does more damage.
Keep in mind that my Ragna is almost as good as my Tsubaki when I only knew how to use a FRACTION of Ragna when I know about 80-90% of Tsubaki.
edit: Both US and JPN tier have Litchi at top 3 and Tager at bottom 3. Tager used the best (MikeZ) is almost as good as a mediocre Litchi... I've seen it at AI. If MikeZ used Litchi, he'd be dominating every match. That's the point of tier lists... You're not even trying to say that Litchi=Tager. Even worse, you're saying Tager>Litchi.
edit 2: I'm not personally attacking you or anything. In fact, I like a good match even when I'm losing, which is why I'm always playing against Q regardless of tier lists. I've got into discussions where Mak, Carl and Tao should be placed higher in tier lists and I've actually agreed to that. But it seems that your mind is set that Litchi is somehow mid tier or below when it's just not the case. Your tier list is somehow backwards where Rachels and Tagers thrive and Litchis are horrible.
Infinite Justice
Member
Prototype-03 said:
hmmm
Prototype-03
Member
Infinite Justice said:
LOL, I'm making it sound worse than it actually is. Fugu is actually a good player, but he's just undermining himself. You know he loves the character when he only uses Litchi and is always playing BBCS. I have nothing but love for the guy but I'm just trying to debate why he thinks Litchi is low tier. I have a feeling that he has Bang, Ragna, Hazama and Hakumen all at high tier (which they are) but leaves out Litchi.
I'm not saying that you don't need any skill to play her... I'm saying that Litchi has a distinct advantage over almost all the cast (save maybe Bang).
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Although I personally put mak higher and ragna below lambda and carl :lol
I don't know if I include in the post that I describe myself as a mid-level player, but I do know that I described Litchi as being outright dominant in mid-level play largely because of the size of her combos and the veracity of her corner knockdown. I recognize that Litchi's learning curve flattens out for awhile somewhere after learning how her BnBs and how the staff projectile works (things I would define as prerequisites for good, mid-level play) and that that has an influence on the amount of times that I win. However, you can't deny that Litchi is vastly under-represented in American high level play especially considering how vastly over-represented she is in Japanese high level play, and that's not strictly co-incidence. There are very few prominent Litchi players compared to almost every character in the US, and that happens because as good as Litchi is, getting to the point where she is played like she is supposed to be for maximum benefit is extremely difficult.Prototype-03 said:
I'm also absolutely certain that I've never described Litchi as anything but top tier. Her propensity towards damage is nothing short of Arakune-like and it comes with the game's best oki of any kind (both 13 orphans and Daisharin essentially force your opponent to dangerously use meter or guess for a few seconds), and her pressure is also nearly endless if you can fool your opponent into taking it. Her major weaknesses are strictly situational (no solid AA, very weak against a lot of characters staffless, DP ranges from very powerful to downright useless against certain characters, tall hitbox, kinda slow attacks) and her major strengths are universal (damage, oki, speed, pressure, pokes); you would be insane to not describe Litchi as top tier. However, getting Litchi to the point at which she is effectively utilized is difficult to the point that it's actively impeding everyone but the top-level players from using her in a manner that reflects her position on the tier list, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. You can see the same thing (albeit to a less extreme degree to their placement on the tier list) with Hazama, Taokaka and Hakumen. You can see the inverse with Noel and Tager. It is plain as day that the only time that character success has any congruency with tier lists is at top-level play.
You and I have severely contrasting views on character mastery. I would define a 100% knowledge of what is possible with any character to be a goal that has yet to have been hit by any person in any fighting game worth a damn, and I would subsequently put my own knowledge of how to play as Litchi at around 10% (or any other such inconsequentially small number).
This represents the fundamental miscommunication of my point that's occurring here. I'm not talking about the specific placements of the characters on the tier lists at all. None of what I have argued pertains at all to the location of Litchi on the tier list (who is rightfully placed at or near the top by everyone) or any other character for that matter.
What I am saying is that tier lists measure potential, and the amount of players who utilize their characters at a level approaching their potential is probably around a hundred; for the rest of us, the relevance of the tier list is fleeting.
I think it's also worth noting that your argument hinges on Mike-Z practicing more (or somehow just being a better player) than all of his opponents which is patently false. I've personally never met a more dedicated american player than Lord Knight. Mike-Z has also beaten ZongOne more than a few times; if your position is that ZongOne is mediocre (considering the Carl-Tager matchup couldn't be any more stacked, it'd have to be), I'm really interested to know in how you're planning on substantiating that.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
You should realize when me and proto talk about the game we are only talking about top level play for the most part as that's what really matters in the end. As that's what the game is balanced around to begin with.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Match ups advantage/disadvantage are always going to be there no matter what level of play, it's just the further along you get the more glaring the two things become.
Edit:
Just cause the players lost doesn't mean who they lost too is somehow an amazing character and theirs isn't as good. I mean look at my name for example xD Kuroda down right rapes at times, is Q an amazing character? No not really.
But the matchup advantages vary wildly depending on the experiences of both players when you're not dealing with top-level players and the variance is so large that a cut-and-paste job of a tier list extrapolated over all levels of play will repeatedly come out inaccurate.QisTopTier said:
Yeah, what of that contradicts anything that I'm saying?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Hey their own fault for not knowing the tricks to the match up and learning what gives the advantages to them in it. Just cause people lack match up experience or don't do their homework on it just means they lost cause the other player did. Even then if both players are still playing 100% The person with the disadvantage isn't always going to lose.
But that in turn is nullifying the difference in the amount of time that has to be invested in each character for them to get to whatever level of play that the match occurred.QisTopTier said:
...And, for that matter, the amount of time invested in certain aspects of play (fundamentals vs. matchup experience vs. character-specific play, for example).
Can't we just blame the players?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Nope a fighting game will never be like that almost ever, closest thing you will ever have is GGAC. With that said BBCS2 is looking really really good.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Look at it this way, you have a pistol I have an assault rifle, sure there is a chance you can kill me but I have an advantage over you. Stop trying to deny the fact that some characters just have straight up better tools and options.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
:lol :lol :lol
Fine
Rachel is a super soaker, litchi and bang are shotguns. argue now gogo
akachan ningen
Member
blazblue: serious business
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fugu said:
Hey man I can like, squirt water on the ground and make them slip and shoot themselves in the face or something else, but I gotta think harder and come up with more gimicky crap to win