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[darkblade77]

Okay so let's say you have two sets of players playing matches. One set is a Litchi vs. Tsubaki in which the Litchi is clearly far superior to the Tsubaki player; in this matchup despite the fact that there is a character imbalance there is also quite evidently a skill imbalance so you don't credit the character imbalance with being the source of the win. Take another Litchi vs. Tsubaki set in which the players' skill levels are more difficult to determine; if the Litchi player wins, do you attribute that player's performance to the matchup (and thereby negating the role of their skill) or do you attribute it to their skill? You can't attribute it to both because the matchup is only a factor if the difference in player skill is small enough (or the matchup imbalance large enough) that the Litchi player would have lost using a different "tool", so to speak. By saying "the matchup did it", you are ultimately saying that you are better than your opponent and that's why it comes off like bad manners to me. You are commenting on my skill (whether you want to or not) when you say that I won because I had a better weapon. And hell, I'd take less offense to people outright calling me bad because I already know that's true.

Who cares? Fighting games are inherently unfair to a degree when it comes to character balance/matchups. At the competitive level everyone participates knowing that. Despite that, who is going to gainsay your skill if you hit the top?

You do have a better weapon, but it's also accessible to your opponent if they want to use it. If they can't deal with that, it isn't your problem and you don't have to project the win or loss as a commentary on your skill either.

 

[Fugu]

It's not really that big of a deal to me until it gets continuously brought up; I don't end my matches by informing my opponent that I'm better than them.

 

[ShaneB]

Fuck it. I like playing as Ragna.

 

[ApolloJoh]

Yes, you'll embrace the Dead Spike in the near future.

 

[Prototype-03]

Yes, you'll embrace the Dead Spike in the near future.

ITS USEFUL NOW!

 

[Fugu]

The animation that it subjects your opponent to when you use Dead Spike in CS2 is just the best thing ever.

 

[QisTopTier]

It's not really that big of a deal to me until it gets continuously brought up; I don't end my matches by informing my opponent that I'm better than them.

I HAVE PROOF ON PSN CHAT THAT YOU DID!

also lol at you pretty much saying proto sucks.

The thing is you suck massive ass at admitting you have an advantage in a match, which is annoying as hell. No one is saying you suck at the game, but when you boast and go AH NAH THIS CHARACTER ISN'T THAT GOOD LOL YOU JUST DIDN'T USE YOUR TOOLS RIGHT IN THE MATCH UP. *When this is clearly not true* comes off as well bad.

Me and proto play all the fucking time and watch and analyze hella videos. Even if we end up using bad match ups against each other we straight up admit the bads of character match ups and never go NAH MAN LOL YOUR CHARACTER IS FINE VS THIS ONE YOU ARE JUST FAILING.

Take Mak vs Valk for instance. He knows she can't do much vs him he straight up says it's pretty stupid, but at the same time we both know she has ways to get around it. He never goes OMG YOU ARE HURTAN MY PRIDE CAUSE YOU SAID IM USING SOMEONE GOOD, he mearly goes LOL HOW DO YOU LIKE IT SUCKA TOP TIER IN YOUR FACE muwahahaha. aka He knows how good the character is, he straight up says ya this is some bullshit but oh well.

Meanwhile you are just like nahhhhh they are not that good, this shit is like not that great it's totally ALL MEEEEE. Which is mostly true, but man have some pride to admit you picked up a damn rifle vs a guy using only his fist.

It's stuff like that for the most part that let tao go unnoticed for so god damn long while me and proto just sat back and shook our heads at how fucking retarded she was since freaking cs1 came out.

 

[Fugu]

I've already said that Tsubaki on Litchi is a visibly bad matchup and even if you ignore the incongruency in the potency of their normals, Tsubaki is facing a losing game due to Litchi's numerical advantage (assuming a completed combo Litchi will deal double what Tsubaki does under most scenarios). Is it always pertinent to the match? No, but it's there. I've never tried to argue that Litchi has a bad matchup against anyone in CS. She doesn't, not even against Bang. This gives the Litchi player the advantage, but it isn't necessarily a determining factor in the match, and it becomes less likely that it will be a factor as the players involved get less skilled (Litchi's combos are irrelevant if the player can't do them, Bang's strong pressure is meaningless if his opponent can't block). This is why I don't like people bringing up the matchup in the context of a contest between players of relatively similar skill.

As for Prototype, he's probably a better player than I am. I say probably because the last few times we've played I've been doing better against him, but I can't and will make no attempt to ignore the fact that he mixes me up with the same overhead every time on Valk and for some while he was beating me with Tsubaki using only her anti-air and triangle jump gimmicks. But that we're playing at a skill level where that still flies leaves me to believe that we're not ready to talk about the relevance of matchups in our game because we're simply not good enough. There is such an immense skill gap between the pros -- for whom the matchup actually presents itself as an impassable obstacle -- and us GAF Blazblue players that it really doesn't matter.

This really isn't that important to me and it amazes me that it keeps coming up here because when I play BlazBlue with my local community, I never have this argument. People talk about the matchups of course and they bitch when they get salty but I've never been accused so audaciously of being a tier whore/delusional.

Speaking of having "some pride", can't you just play, win or lose, and leave it at that? Why do you have to footnote the results?

 

[Prototype-03]

I've already said that Tsubaki on Litchi is a visibly bad matchup and even if you ignore the incongruency in the potency of their normals, Tsubaki is facing a losing game due to Litchi's numerical advantage (assuming a completed combo Litchi will deal double what Tsubaki does under most scenarios). Is it always pertinent to the match? No, but it's there. I've never tried to argue that Litchi has a bad matchup against anyone in CS. She doesn't, not even against Bang. This gives the Litchi player the advantage, but it isn't necessarily a determining factor in the match, and it becomes less likely that it will be a factor as the players involved get less skilled (Litchi's combos are irrelevant if the player can't do them, Bang's strong pressure is meaningless if his opponent can't block). This is why I don't like people bringing up the matchup in the context of a contest between players of relatively similar skill.

As for Prototype, he's probably a better player than I am. I say probably because the last few times we've played I've been doing better against him, but I can't and will make no attempt to ignore the fact that he mixes me up with the same overhead every time on Valk and for some while he was beating me with Tsubaki using only her anti-air and triangle jump gimmicks. But that we're playing at a skill level where that still flies leaves me to believe that we're not ready to talk about the relevance of matchups in our game because we're simply not good enough. There is such an immense skill gap between the pros -- for whom the matchup actually presents itself as an impassable obstacle -- and us GAF Blazblue players that it really doesn't matter.

This really isn't that important to me and it amazes me that it keeps coming up here because when I play BlazBlue with my local community, I never have this argument. People talk about the matchups of course and they bitch when they get salty but I've never been accused so audaciously of being a tier whore/delusional.

Speaking of having "some pride", can't you just play, win or lose, and leave it at that? Why do you have to footnote the results?

See, the thing is, I WILL admit that, and that's one of my shortcomings when it comes to fighting games. I have a very poor adjustment to the game, but I WILL get it after being beat down for the 10th time. I've been getting better at adjusting games, but it's usually when I have a fresh mind. After work, I am so tired but still willing to play, so a lot of time, I go into autopilot mod which is no good when I have to adjust.

Also, dropping Litchi combos is not as harsh as dropping Tsubaki's or Valk's combos. Litchi still can set up a 50/50 game after dropping a combo with her DD. She still has very strong pokes. Tsubaki's dropped combo, 50% of the time, is from a whiffed 5BB, which is annoying as hell. Also, how does it make sense that a dropped Litchi combo does more damage than a full Tsubaki combo? How is that not being stronger?

But yes, I am getting tired of this argument, and CS2 isn't out yet which I am eagerly waiting for. All 3 of the characters that I have mained seem fun now. Honestly, Fugu... Like I said, you're still one of the better players out there... I wouldn't talk about Litchi being favorable if you were just mashing jabs and doing stupid combos. It's the same reason why I'm not saying Tager is overpowered. I don't even recall ever calling you a tier whore either so I don't even know why that's brought up. I actually commend you for playing the character you like... You actually fit her pretty well.

BTW, (by your own words) you're bad, but you beat me. Matchups doesn't matter in our level of gameplay. I'm horrible. My bad dude.

 

[Fugu]

So I'm delusional but I'm definitely not a tier whore, lol. I suppose in retrosepct nobody's calling me a tier whore. I'm also not certain how to interpret that last sentence of yours, so I'm going to need some clarification.

And it is being stronger, I agree with you in that respect. Tsubaki's hilariously low damage is made especially nonsensical when compared to Litchi's ridiculously high damage. It is probably the most extreme difference you can come up with -- that is, you are comparing the character with the highest average damage in the game to the character with the lowest average damage in the game. Litchi also has, for the most part, better normals (better pokes, more potent hitconfirm, better overheads, stronger aerials), although up close Tsubaki will probably win and Tsubaki's anti-airs outclass all of Litchi's.
I'm not arguing that the matchup is bad because it's verifiable and almost universally believed that the matchup is bad; I'm arguing that it's not always relevant and better manners to assume that it's not than it is, particularly when dealing with two players of a similar skill.

However, for the record, I'd take a dropped Tsubaki combo over a dropped Litchi combo any day of the week. I'm not sure why you mentioned supers as they can rarely, if ever, cover a dropped combo: Koukoshi is literally useless for this (I can't envision a circumstance in which you would drop a combo with your opponent next to the staff and with such a frame advantage that they wouldn't be able to jump out of this) and daisharin might be useful sometimes but you would have to have some pretty good prediction skills and usually when you drop a combo you're staffless so it's a moot point anyway. As well, Litchi's normals are slow so some drops can leave you in a CHable state (any drop while doing an itsuu move will be punished and you will be CH). The most common dropped combo segment (6Kote haku hatsu Riichi A Ippatsu A) can be dropped leaving you either standing next to your opponent staffless and in recovery frames (free CH on Litchi), you miles away from your opponent with the staff flying around (free mindgames for Litchi I guess, this actually isn't a great situation for either player), or you standing uselessly on top of the staff (free CH on Litchi although some players don't know how to deal with this and get hit for a ton of damage). As well, as previously mentioned, you usually drop a combo staffless, and Litchi is quite vulnerable staffless due to the lack of range, speed, reversals, or projectiles

Spoiler

still probably better than Tsubaki though

.

EDIT: I forgot about four winds. I guess you can use this to punish back techs on a dropped combo or something but I've never done it and a player with the presence of mind to do that probably isn't dropping their combos anyway.

 

[QisTopTier]

I'm arguing that it's not always relevant and better manners to assume that it's not than it is, particularly when dealing with two players of a similar skill.

That's when match up charts/tier list actually matter

 

[Fugu]

Not necessarily. If there are two players of equal skill and one of them is particularly susceptible to something that the other player does, than the matchup chart becomes irrelevant as the matchup is more readily dominated by that specific flaw in the player's game plan. Matchup charts don't account for this because if they did, they would be worthless.

 

[QisTopTier]

Not necessarily. If there are two players of equal skill and one of them is particularly susceptible to something that the other player does, than the matchup chart becomes irrelevant as the matchup is more readily dominated by that specific flaw in the player's game plan. Matchup charts don't account for this because if they did, they would be worthless.

So tier list are worthless you are saying and everyone that loses to litchi/tao/bang is cause they are just falling for stuff over and over again cause they are bad vs it as a player?

 

[Prototype-03]

Not necessarily. If there are two players of equal skill and one of them is particularly susceptible to something that the other player does, than the matchup chart becomes irrelevant as the matchup is more readily dominated by that specific flaw in the player's game plan. Matchup charts don't account for this because if they did, they would be worthless.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8432-BB-CS-Match-Up-Chart

"Each match-up is determined by weighing each character's abilities and what they can do to each other assuming the two players are of equal skill level at high level play. This means that we assume that both players know of every single match-up and play each match-up in the most optimal way to win."

I have no idea how matchups doesn't matter with two equal skills.

 

[Master Milk]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8432-BB-CS-Match-Up-Chart

"Each match-up is determined by weighing each character's abilities and what they can do to each other assuming the two players are of equal skill level at high level play. This means that we assume that both players know of every single match-up and play each match-up in the most optimal way to win."

I have no idea how matchups doesn't matter with two equal skills.

There are two qualifiers here, equal skill and high level play. Without both, match ups are meaningless, according to this quote. Fugu has said before that he doesn't think any of you three play at a high level, so of course he's going to think match ups don't matter. Since you're using that quote, I can only assume you agree with it, which means that once you understand Fugu doesn't think you all are playing at high level, you should be able to understand why he insists that match ups don't matter.

Really, I wish you guys would just drop the argument. It's saddening when the only reason this thread is active is because there's a pointless argument going on.

 

[QisTopTier]

Fugu has said before that he doesn't think any of you three play at a high level, so of course he's going to think match ups don't matter. Since you're using that quote, I can only assume you agree with it, which means that once you understand Fugu doesn't think you all are playing at high level, you should be able to understand why he insists that match ups don't matter.

Really, I wish you guys would just drop the argument. It's saddening when the only reason this thread is active is because there's a pointless argument going on.

So I should feel offended and he's saying I suck? Cause I hate to be cocky, but I sure as fuck play at high level in this game. Him and Proto also play mid-high themselves.

Spoiler

Oh and proto playing at AI and getting complemented on and only really losing to the players on the higher end of the spectrum like Zong and Dacid with tsubaki... I'm pretty sure Proto is damn near high level as well.

This is why I hate that I can't play in freaking arcades, so many people always doubt the shit I say or how good I am and it honestly gets a bit annoying. Ever notice the people that don't argue in the MvC3 thread for example have played me and the people that do HAVEN'T err ya

Spoiler

eats a rage cookie

Now pardon me, I have some My Little Pony to watch

 

[Master Milk]

*

The way you three keep carrying on, I'd say all three of you seem to be offended. I don't really care about that though. Whether you three are actually high level or not, again, isn't something I really care about. My post was just pointing out why Fugu keeps saying what he says, because you three seem to not really be reading each other's posts.

Regardless of who is right or wrong, I think it's a pointless argument that doesn't need to drag on any longer, especially with CS2 coming out next week.

 

[QisTopTier]

The way you three keep carrying on, I'd say all three of you seem to be offended. I don't really care about that though. Whether you three are actually high level or not, again, isn't something I really care about. My post was just pointing out why Fugu keeps saying what he says, because you three seem to not really be reading each other's posts.

Regardless of who is right or wrong, I think it's a pointless argument that doesn't need to drag on any longer, especially with CS2 coming out next week.

But it's fuuuuuun!

 

[SephirothRK]

While you guys are talking, you guys probably skip over this. When the patch hits, I'm learning this game and you guys will be free to me.

 

[QisTopTier]

While you guys are talking, you guys probably skip over this. When the patch hits, I'm learning this game and you guys will be free to me.

You better be sticking to hazama, he's even better now LOL

 

[ShaneB]

There aren't many beginner rooms, so I just join a random room and get blown up. Still fun though.

 

[Master Milk]

I can't wait to go on a 100 game losing streak with Platinum.

 

[Fugu]

We're not playing this game at a high level. We're not playing it at anything resembling a high level. I wouldn't consider any American player to be playing the game at a "high level" considering how badly all of America loses to Japan come tournament time.

I play a Carl player who's really good. He's so good that he frequently beats everyone in Toronto. He goes on 60+ game winning streaks that he only ends when he stops playing. I once perfected him two rounds in a row and still lost the five game set; he's amazing. This Carl player gets his ass kicked by ZONGone, a better Carl player. He, in turn, got his ass kicked at America's SBO qualifiers by a Tager player (GMMA_Jan) and a Ragna player whose name escapes me. These players, in turn, lost in the first round of SBO. When I'm at least five orders of magnitude away from even being a contest for the high level players, I'm not going to describe myself as playing the game "at a high level" and I don't see why you should either.

To reiterate how I feel about this...

"Each match-up is determined by weighing each character's abilities and what they can do to each other assuming the two players are of equal skill level at high level play. This means that we assume that both players know of every single match-up and play each match-up in the most optimal way to win."

 

[QisTopTier]

We're not playing this game at a high level. We're not playing it at anything resembling a high level. I wouldn't consider any American player to be playing the game at a "high level" considering how badly all of America loses to Japan come tournament time.

I play a Carl player who's really good. He's so good that he frequently beats everyone in Toronto. He goes on 60+ game winning streaks that he only ends when he stops playing. I once perfected him two rounds in a row and still lost the five game set; he's amazing. This Carl player gets his ass kicked by ZONGone, a better Carl player. He, in turn, got his ass kicked at America's SBO qualifiers by a Tager player (GMMA_Jan) and a Ragna player whose name escapes me. These players, in turn, lost in the first round of SBO. When I'm at least five orders of magnitude away from even being a contest for the high level players, I'm not going to describe myself as playing the game "at a high level" and I don't see why you should either.

To reiterate how I feel about this...

And this is exactly what I was talking about

 

[Master Milk]

*

 

[Fugu]

And this is exactly what I was talking about

You're offended that I think you can't play at a high level when my standard is "must be able to beat every American player", which I know you can't do? Sweet Jesus.

 

[QisTopTier]

You're offended that I think you can't play at a high level when my standard is "must be able to beat every American player", which I know you can't do? Sweet Jesus.

 

[Fugu]

This is great, now that all y'all hate me maybe you'll play me every once in awhile. =P

 

[QisTopTier]

This is great, now that all y'all hate me maybe you'll play me every once in awhile. =P

I dropped cs1 like 3 months after cs2 was out. Main reason I haven't been playing it really.

Protip: No one hates you.

 

[Fugu]

Really? I'll try harder then. You all stink and Litchi is the worst character in CS1, get better.

Everyone stopped playing CS1 (although I can't say I can't blame them; Arc/Aksys handled this transition terribly); I've been playing the same four or five people since December.

 

[Prototype-03]

Really? I'll try harder then. You all stink and Litchi is the worst character in CS1, get better.

Everyone stopped playing CS1 (although I can't say I can't blame them; Arc/Aksys handled this transition terribly); I've been playing the same four or five people since December.

It really feels like you're losing the battle and instead of backing up your statements you're just saying random stuff now. So okay, you win. Litchi sucks, you're so awesome. Oh but wait, you think you suck.

ALRIGHT, I am so bad.

Let's drop it.

And yes, CS1 is irrelevant since CS2 has been out. It's just a tease for all the console players. Doesn't help that Nesica needs to be online for the arcades.

edit: and to clarify what I meant earlier and brought up again in my last statement:

And hell, I'd take less offense to people outright calling me bad because I already know that's true.

 

[Master Milk]

Doesn't help that Nesica needs to be online.

What's up with this, anyway? I remember being upset because Nesica was forcing something something I can't remember. I don't think I ever heard much more than Nesica was getting in the way of things, but I don't know how exactly or why.

 

[Prototype-03]

What's up with this, anyway? I remember being upset because Nesica was forcing something something I can't remember. I don't think I ever heard much more than Nesica was getting in the way of things, but I don't know how exactly or why.

The system needs to be online in order to play CS2. It's basically so whenever someone plays, part of that money goes to developers. It's great for developers, horrible for arcade owners. Also, doesn't work in the US. I just know that about 2-3 months ago, one of the arcades in the US was able to bypass it.

 

[Master Milk]

The system needs to be online in order to play CS2. It's basically so whenever someone plays, part of that money goes to developers. It's great for developers, horrible for arcade owners. Also, doesn't work in the US. I just know that about 2-3 months ago, one of the arcades in the US was able to bypass it.

Ah, okay. I guess I was getting the forcing online confused with something else, because I remember that part. It sounds like no one cares about outside of Japan though. I think that's why I was upset about it.

 

[Fugu]

It really feels like you're losing the battle and instead of backing up your statements you're just saying random stuff now. So okay, you win. Litchi sucks, you're so awesome. Oh but wait, you think you suck.

ALRIGHT, I am so bad.

Let's drop it.

And yes, CS1 is irrelevant since CS2 has been out. It's just a tease for all the console players. Doesn't help that Nesica needs to be online for the arcades.

edit: and to clarify what I meant earlier and brought up again in my last statement:

Please do not interpret this as me trying to start the argument up again because that's not what this is and I think the amount of times it has been brought up with the debate being centered on the same three people every time is starting to border on threadshitting.

I made that irrelevant comment because my last attempt to substantiate my argument was met with two image responses. There's no one on my side about this and I've restated my argument about a million times, so I'm fairly certain that I'm not going to convince anyone (and trust me, you're probably not going to convince me either). So I'm not debating this seriously anymore unless someone really wants to, because of the aforementioned lack of support and because people are focusing on the parts of my posts where it appears that I call everyone bad. It's not that I think that you're bad, it's that I think that the pros are that good and that we're quite evidently not on the same level as them. But it's futile, and this is just bringing about negative attention towards me that I don't want. So I'm trying to make nice and stop talking about it.

 

[ApolloJoh]

The system needs to be online in order to play CS2. It's basically so whenever someone plays, part of that money goes to developers. It's great for developers, horrible for arcade owners. Also, doesn't work in the US. I just know that about 2-3 months ago, one of the arcades in the US was able to bypass it.

Not for much longer!

Protip: No one hates you.

I do

Spoiler

n't ;D

 

[Fugu]

Not for much longer!



I do

Spoiler

n't ;D

YES

YES

YES

OH GOD YES

THIS IS LITERALLY THE BEST NEWS

 

[Master Milk]

Not for much longer!

A few posts above says PS3 will likely get the update a week after Xbox! D=

 

[ShaneB]

Just something to nitpick about, shouldn't the upcoming patch be patch 2.0... if it is indeed being parity to what CS2 is?

Ah well.

I just want this to be relevant! SSF4 AE and Blazblue will make for a fun summer of fighting game goodness.

 

[GhostRidah]

Good tourney stream going on

FinestKO

 

[ShaneB]

Good tourney stream going on

FinestKO

Awesome quality. Thanks!

 

[QisTopTier]

Good tourney stream going on

FinestKO

Not gonna lie I watched it today.... and god damn was it painful to watch. Thankfully the commentators helped a bit...

 

[Urban Scholar]

Not gonna lie I watched it today.... and god damn was it painful to watch. Thankfully the commentators helped a bit...

I too agree with the commentary to help out.

 

[GhostRidah]

Not gonna lie I watched it today.... and god damn was it painful to watch. Thankfully the commentators helped a bit...

It was good to me because I just picked up the game this week and im a total noob to it lol

 

[darkblade77]

Okay, figure I should get some advice to level up my terrible Makoto a bit.

• I've been trying to get the hang of knowing when to 6A, and I end up getting beat clean on it a lot. Any tips on what I should be looking for when characters get airborne, and who I'm better off not trying to catch with it? Also generally when is it a better idea to DP instead of using 6A or vice-versa, etc.
• I have a lot of trouble figuring out when to go in against Valkenhayn. ground B/C and j.C give me a rough time and while I know I'm supposed to be patient, I don't know when my chance is supposed to actually appear and I get blown up for it all day.
• I play a lot of Tagers. I also drop my ground B&Bs semi-frequently, especially online. So I end up spoonfeeding them a lot of free damage. I know that the obvious answer is to keep grinding so I stop dropping combos, but is there any kind of setup that would make them reluctant to mash 360/720 as hard while I'm hitting them? Like a string that I could prematurely end in a neutral jump or something(although I don't think that example exists for her in CS).
• I am awful at grasping the timing on Particle Flare followup(as in, not doing the third hit of the super and continuing with stuff like j.D -> whatever in the corner), which is extra frustrating since it feels like you have all the time in the world to get them after the first two hits. Looking for a good visual cue or something...

Be gentle! Or be a dick, as long as you tell me what I need to be doing better.

 

[Fugu]

Q is more poised to answer these questions than I am, but I'm going to try anyway.

For your Tager problem, unless you are dropping your combos in situations that put you at a colossal disadvantage from a recovery standpoint, Tager still shouldn't have enough time to tech and then throw you; if you suspect that he is going to wake up and throw you, there are a few things you can do. First of all, you should reconcile the fact that you're going to drop combos and you should try to get used to discovering that you've dropped your combo as fast as possible. With that comes not trying to pretend you didn't drop your combo (by continuing your "combo" anyway) because that's how you'll get hurt -- it's much easier for Tager to IB you and 360 you that way than it is for him to tech and wake up close enough to you to 360. You're going to have to discuss character-specific options with... someone who plays your character, but generally speaking it is worth noting that Tager can't 360 you if you jump and it's a pretty free punish if you jump a 360B. However, if you jump you need to be prepared for collider which will probably catch you if you're magnetized (it probably won't if you're not and again, leads to a free punish or at least puts you on the advantage). He can also air throw you or maybe hit you with one of his incredibly slow normals but if your objective is simply to avoid 360s then all you have to do is jump. Backdash is strong too but worthless if you're magnetized. Otherwise this might be a better option for Makoto considering her short range, but again, consult someone who plays your character (Tager also has more answers to this than he does to jumping out -- notably B sledge). I don't know if this is the answer you were looking for but it essentially boils down to the fact that Tager's entire game plan is capitalizing on mistakes so barring some kind of specific option that outright beats 360/720 (I doubt Makoto has one) you just need to capitalize on your own mistake before he does.

 

[QisTopTier]

Okay, figure I should get some advice to level up my terrible Makoto a bit.

• I've been trying to get the hang of knowing when to 6A, and I end up getting beat clean on it a lot. Any tips on what I should be looking for when characters get airborne, and who I'm better off not trying to catch with it? Also generally when is it a better idea to DP instead of using 6A or vice-versa, etc.
• I have a lot of trouble figuring out when to go in against Valkenhayn. ground B/C and j.C give me a rough time and while I know I'm supposed to be patient, I don't know when my chance is supposed to actually appear and I get blown up for it all day.
• I play a lot of Tagers. I also drop my ground B&Bs semi-frequently, especially online. So I end up spoonfeeding them a lot of free damage. I know that the obvious answer is to keep grinding so I stop dropping combos, but is there any kind of setup that would make them reluctant to mash 360/720 as hard while I'm hitting them? Like a string that I could prematurely end in a neutral jump or something(although I don't think that example exists for her in CS).
• I am awful at grasping the timing on Particle Flare followup(as in, not doing the third hit of the super and continuing with stuff like j.D -> whatever in the corner), which is extra frustrating since it feels like you have all the time in the world to get them after the first two hits. Looking for a good visual cue or something...

Be gentle! Or be a dick, as long as you tell me what I need to be doing better.

There is two/three ways to play Mak right now, You can just go balls to the wall crazy pure mix ups and try to confuse them as much as possible. You can semi turtle and fish for counter hits *this leads to HUGE ASS DAMAGE then a trap*. Last but not least you can combine the two styles and swap your flow around mid match to suit the situation. *I use this*

The easiest way to play her in cs1 right now is actually option 2, the only downside is that it takes a bit of time to learn how to counter the entire cast and that comes from overall game experience not experience with her.

The worst way right now is option 1, in cs2 this will become the norm even though for the most part is is right now. This is the easiest way to actually use her at the risk of well getting your ass handed to you because of how bad some of the recovery on her stuff is at the moment once people learn to IB your moves.

The best way is a mix of the two, and can easily frustrate the hell out of people. *this is also how I play ky in guilty gear :lol*

1.Try to never DP unless you have meter to burn in case it get's baited, mak's 6A is a little slow and doesn't really have the best reach, honestly half the time I either just BLOCK or IAD back and away to create a little space or if they are still a good deal above I'll do a fast j.B, depending on the match up her 5B can actually anti air pretty well as well even though the hit box makes it seem like it shouldn't.

2. Bait 2C's, 2A the fuck out of him once he is close enough, also learn to IB his moves they are pretty slow overall outside some of his wolf shit, other wise be patient and don't take to many risk. A lot of his moves leave him at frame advantage so if you try to attack after blocking most of the time you will get counter hit.

3.How are you dropping maks ground combos o.o? Anyways the best thing to do against tagger from my exp is to well not always do the full combos go for resets on this dumb huge ass and keep mixing it up non-stop, once you give he leeway in the match it's a uphill battle again. But honestly the match is pretty much in maks favor if you play your cards right. Learn what moves you can jump cancel on hit, abuse it vs him.

4.Uhh, I have it by muscle memory now, but I think it's pretty much right after the second hit... honestly though if you are having that much trouble with it just do the other super, it set's up better situations in the corner anyways. Only time in CS you should really use that is during fatal counter combos

 

[Fugu]

1.Try to never DP unless you have meter to burn in case it get's baited, mak's 6A is a little slow and doesn't really have the best reach, honestly half the time I either just BLOCK or IAD back and away to create a little space or if they are still a good deal above I'll do a fast j.B, depending on the match up her 5B can actually anti air pretty well as well even though the hit box makes it seem like it shouldn't.

I can vouch for both the AA properties of 5B (it's great if your opponent jumps in too deep or something) and the dangers of Makoto's DP. So many players think it's God's gift to victory but even with meter it's easy to bring the pain on Makoto on a whiff/bait.

 

[darkblade77]

Thanks for the replies, I'll try to work these tips in from now on.

I hear that 5B is jump cancellable in CS2 and I'm looking forward to that... not so much j.2C losing the second jump though. I'll try using 5B more as anti-air... that normal seems strange in a lot of ways, really.

I'm actually pretty reluctant to DP or 6A with Makoto now because neither move typically gets me out of the situation I think it will, lol. I'm kinda glad that it wasn't so much a case of me using either move wrong and more that they're just that situational.

I drop ground Mak combos (outside of lag) because I have a bad habit of watching if x part in a combo hits and pressing more buttons from there; it's like I try to hitconfirm in the middle of a combo I already have going and should have autopiloted. I do it more often when I'm nervous, so I'll often eat mashed 720 on finishing ground combos with Lunatic Rush. (tldr I'm bad)

And I can kinda see Makoto playstyle boiling down to those archtypes (bait into counterhitting/spamming unsafe mixups) since I fall into the latter pattern often. I feel that playing Makoto well is leaving the opponent with the impression that you might fly down their throat at any time, regardless if you're actually going to do it or not. She's really easy to fall into a pattern with IMO, but since crushing a predictable Makoto is also really easy there's plenty of reminders to keep her approach fresh.

Any tips about using 2C/3C, and j.2C? I use these three moves way more than I probably ever should in matches, and while I doubt 3C is ever really safe outside of guessing correctly what the opponent plans to do I'm sure the other two have some do's/don't do's attached to them I'm missing out on.

 

[QisTopTier]

J.2C is good for doing fake jumps, also you can barrier during her mix up move in the air and then double jump or j.2C out of it for more confusion.

She lost the jump cancel on j.2C cause honestly it would of been dumb as hell in CS2 actually it's dumb as hell now.