JadedWriter
Member
Of course you'd be at home in it, you started the Berserk OT.
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Bloodborne: The Old Hunters |OT| Old Hunters. New Tricks, Bells & Whistles.
- Thread starter Robot Pants
- Start date
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand why someone who isn't very good at the game/didn't love it would be interested in playing this DLC day one.
The way FROM integrates their DLC makes this a much better experience for all future playthroughs of the game and for anyone who is picking up the game for the first time as a complete version.
It *only* is frustrating for people who finished the game and immediately stopped playing it and also happen to have the need to quickly experience the new content within a limited schedule. So, pretty much just bloggers and game journalists.
Even for them, it shouldn't be hard to run through the first few bosses on NG+ to get into the DLC.
EvilKatarn
Member
Gonna go on a ship cruise with Maria and Annalise when shit hits the fan over at Yharnamtown.
But those blood tick things are there. Nope.
Fancy Clown
Member
Just gonna chime in and say I found OoK phase 1 to be on the easy side as well. I think he's got a pretty cool move set though, with some AoE, some 360 attacks, lunging attacks, etc. But he's easy to stagger, and most moves can be avoided by side-stepping around his right.
Phase 2 tho...
Phase 2 tho...
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Still much, much better than they used to be.
JadedWriter
Member
And come back eight years later.
JudgmentJay
Member
idontbelieveyou.gif. Link me some posts.
OK so you don't care about the overall world connectivity, but you do care about the individual level interconnections? That's fair. That's what I meant, and I agree. The level design of the DLC areas is great.
I guess can understand that as well. Many of the Demon's Souls bosses are interesting in that way for sure. People shit on Dragon God all the time, but I personally love it. But I still think intense 1 on 1 fights are more satisfying in the end.
I'm a little confused by your last paragraph though. Are you saying that OoK is less interesting than those other fights you list? Flamelurker, etc. Because I strongly disagree. OoK's moveset is vast compared to anything from Demon's Souls.
Irory King Maldron is great. Old Iron King Maldron is just stupid. The thing I hate the most about them is a) their tracking, and b) their HP. Maldron can do a 360 in mid-air on his jumping R2 attack. I pretty much just ignore them if at all possible. If there's a good reward for beating them, sure. But most of the time there isn't. I feel similarly about Bloodborne hunters when it comes to HP. And their infinite bullets.
Cainhurst was my favorite area in the base game. I have a real bias towards that medieval style (and it felt like a Souls area).
No need to be such a fussy little baby about it! My mistake.
I think DS2's way of doing it was the best, in that case. I agree! But a lot of people are fascinated by the game and want to see the content, even if they aren't very good at it. A lot of my friends struggled with the game but still wanted to see where it was going--and they ended up loving the challenge! But they also didn't wanna do it again.
I'm not saying dumb it down, I'm just saying why I think people that aren't super good at the game might wanna see the content immediately. Especially since some of the magic in these games is being part of the discovery zeitgeist.
I also think it's the fact that there were early reports that the DLC was super hard on NG+ as opposed to just NG.
Orochinagis
Member
Next time we will see the Belmonts storming the castle believing dracule lives there
Gormless Noodle
Member
You do seem like the plip plop splish splash kind of person to be honest.
Considering the first enemy you meet in the DLC is way tougher than any of the normal enemies you meet (with maybe the exception of the Church Giants) through the parts you have to get through to unlock the DLC (Yharnam through Cathedral Ward), they should probably practice up before tackling if they're not that good.
I totally changed my mind about this fight after I learned pretty much all of his attacks patterns. watching Peeve fighting him for 26hrs was frustrating tho lol.
I like it when they plip and plop and make me splash.
WHAT A SHIT I LOVE HIM SO MUCH
Kamina
Golden Boy
Tell me when you grew up and became an egg, little robin.
Finale Fireworker
Member
This isn't something that has a definitive answer, but I love to think about it anyway. DLC like this raises all sorts of questions about what was always planned, what was invented post release, and how things were implement.
We know that the DLC was originally envisioned as two packages. But, probably very early on, it was decided to make one big campaign instead.
We also know that every game has cut content. This is a reality of development. Things are excluded for time, budget, and any variety of reasons. That doesn't mean, though, that cut content that existed doesn't influence the main game. Let's not forget the broken archway in Demon's Souls.
So, this is kind of what I've been thinking about:
I think it's pretty obvious that the two DLC packs were sketched out to be the
and the
. These are distinct and coherent areas that could have easily existed outside of the Nightmare. There is visibly a
But let's start with the third and final area.
Which brings us to the second area.
Which brings us to the first area.
So, to recap:
These are just ideas. Stuff I've been thinking about. How stuff forms in development has always been really interesting to me. It's rare we are given this many puzzle pieces in a modern game.
We know that the DLC was originally envisioned as two packages. But, probably very early on, it was decided to make one big campaign instead.
We also know that every game has cut content. This is a reality of development. Things are excluded for time, budget, and any variety of reasons. That doesn't mean, though, that cut content that existed doesn't influence the main game. Let's not forget the broken archway in Demon's Souls.
So, this is kind of what I've been thinking about:
I think it's pretty obvious that the two DLC packs were sketched out to be the
Astral Observatory
Fishing Hamlet
clocktower in Yharnam already, and the other location could have easily been implemented anywhere off of the shoreline.
But let's start with the third and final area.
The Lone Survivor starting class references that the player is the only survivor of a lost fishing hamlet, which is probably a minor reference to this place's intended existence. A hamlet is a pretty specific place to reference. Which means that the idea of the hamlet being "lost" already existed during the vanilla development. Since this area also includes Kos, it was probably already "known" internally what Kos was, how it was discovered, and what became of the fishing town.
So much of, if all of, what we see in the fishing hamlet was probably always "known" to have occurred by Miyazaki and his team. It was content not included during the original development cycle for whatever reason. Probably because it's such a demanding area with exclusive enemies, weather, and characters. Other than the corpse of Kos remaining on the beach after all this time, this area doesn't need to take place in a nightmare at all. In fact, it doesn't even LOOK like nightmare territory
It's only connection to the nightmare is that it contains Maria's weapon, which she threw down the well.
So much of, if all of, what we see in the fishing hamlet was probably always "known" to have occurred by Miyazaki and his team. It was content not included during the original development cycle for whatever reason. Probably because it's such a demanding area with exclusive enemies, weather, and characters. Other than the corpse of Kos remaining on the beach after all this time, this area doesn't need to take place in a nightmare at all. In fact, it doesn't even LOOK like nightmare territory
It's only connection to the nightmare is that it contains Maria's weapon, which she threw down the well.
Which brings us to the second area.
The clocktower doesn't look like nightmare stuff either, except for two distinct areas: the Lumenwood Garden and the balcony area. These areas feel sort of tacked on. The balcony takes place in a space that could easily not be there at all, and the garden serves as a strange outdoor buffer before the fight with Maria. Simon doesn't tell you to ascend the stairs and fight the Living Failures, he tells you to to kill Maria. So opening the doors and finding another garden before Maria herself is quite the surprise.
I believe the clocktower area was also a freestanding area that had some "Nightmare" content added in to remind the player they're still in it. The clocktower could have easily been accessed through the Upper Cathedral Ward.
Because one of the things that stands out to me is the room where you fight "human Amelia" and the woman in black church garb. I didn't recognize where this took place geographically until I entered it through the clocktower balcony. We are in the room that, in the real world, houses the elevator that takes us to Ebrietas.
In the main game, we break the window and exit the Lumenflower Garden (where we fight the Celestial Emissary) and fall into the indoor balcony of a cathedral. Although we can see down below, where there is a big open room and an altar, we cannot access this space. It exists only to give depth to the room we have just entered. We go to the back of the room and board the elevator to fight Ebrietas.
The clocktower is, as far as Nightmare Geography, accessed through this very church. Meaning, instead of Ebrietas, we probably would have boarded the elevator to the astral observatory instead.
But then where would Ebrietas be?
Well, we know from the Project Beast footage that Ebrietas was originally fought in the Grand Cathedral.
But then where would Vicar Amelia be?
My guess is on the lower floor of the Ebrietas Cathedral, which is completely inaccessible in the main game, but is where we fight the two church women (including "human Amelia") in the Nightmare.
I speculate that we would have entered through the ground floor just as we did in the DLC. As we approached the altar, Vicar Amelia would have been praying in front of it, then transformed into the beast. After defeating her, we would board te elevator to the clocktower.
Because let's remember, this would have been much later in the game as well.
I believe the clocktower area was also a freestanding area that had some "Nightmare" content added in to remind the player they're still in it. The clocktower could have easily been accessed through the Upper Cathedral Ward.
Because one of the things that stands out to me is the room where you fight "human Amelia" and the woman in black church garb. I didn't recognize where this took place geographically until I entered it through the clocktower balcony. We are in the room that, in the real world, houses the elevator that takes us to Ebrietas.
In the main game, we break the window and exit the Lumenflower Garden (where we fight the Celestial Emissary) and fall into the indoor balcony of a cathedral. Although we can see down below, where there is a big open room and an altar, we cannot access this space. It exists only to give depth to the room we have just entered. We go to the back of the room and board the elevator to fight Ebrietas.
The clocktower is, as far as Nightmare Geography, accessed through this very church. Meaning, instead of Ebrietas, we probably would have boarded the elevator to the astral observatory instead.
But then where would Ebrietas be?
Well, we know from the Project Beast footage that Ebrietas was originally fought in the Grand Cathedral.
But then where would Vicar Amelia be?
My guess is on the lower floor of the Ebrietas Cathedral, which is completely inaccessible in the main game, but is where we fight the two church women (including "human Amelia") in the Nightmare.
I speculate that we would have entered through the ground floor just as we did in the DLC. As we approached the altar, Vicar Amelia would have been praying in front of it, then transformed into the beast. After defeating her, we would board te elevator to the clocktower.
Because let's remember, this would have been much later in the game as well.
Which brings us to the first area.
I think the "nightmare" idea was only devised once the plans for DLC were put into motion. To tie the two sections together, and to also sever the sequences from the main game's continuity, the Hunter's Nightmare idea was implemented. This was an effective and economical idea, as it allowed them to recycle areas and expand the DLC package even further.
But then, if this area was never planned, where would we have fought Ludwig and Laurence?
I don't think we would have.
Laurence, remember, was already explained in the main game. He had a full and complete story. His skull was in the Grand Cathedral, his headless corpse was in the Chalice Dungeons, there were no holes here.
Laurence as the flaming Cleric Beast disrupts that former continuity somewhat. He feels far more "retconned" in than the other material, which feels that it was always there.
And, honestly, I think it's the same for Ludwig.
Nobody was expecting to find Ludwig in beast form. Ludwig was simply long gone. His presence as a beast does not disrupt or strongly contribute to the lore. It changes it slightly, because now another unknown is known, but I think Ludwig and Laurence were created to populate the new "third area" of the nightmare.
But then, if this area was never planned, where would we have fought Ludwig and Laurence?
I don't think we would have.
Laurence, remember, was already explained in the main game. He had a full and complete story. His skull was in the Grand Cathedral, his headless corpse was in the Chalice Dungeons, there were no holes here.
Laurence as the flaming Cleric Beast disrupts that former continuity somewhat. He feels far more "retconned" in than the other material, which feels that it was always there.
And, honestly, I think it's the same for Ludwig.
Nobody was expecting to find Ludwig in beast form. Ludwig was simply long gone. His presence as a beast does not disrupt or strongly contribute to the lore. It changes it slightly, because now another unknown is known, but I think Ludwig and Laurence were created to populate the new "third area" of the nightmare.
So, to recap:
The DLC was originally the fishing hamlet and the clocktower basically exactly how they appear. They were originally areas conceived for the main game that were cut from development, but remained part of the known lore in-house. Stuff like who the doll was meant to resemble and who Kos was are questions we find answered, but that means the answers had to exist to begin with. I highly, highly doubt that Miyazaki and his team would have characters and lore with no answers in their own minds.
When the DLC was combined into one package, the Hunter's Nigtmare was invented to tie the two areas together and expand the new locations even further. The Nightmare links the two locations together which would have otherwise appeared on the map in their own locations.
The hamlet could have been anywhere at all. But we have a road in Hemwick Charnel Lane that ends and abruptly becomes a drop off. We pick up a Great Sea rune here. But that road could have continued into a path that led to the fishing hamlet.
The clocktower would have appeared in place of Ebrietas in the Upper Cathedral. The Living Failures could have taken the place of the Celestial Emissary, which is kind of a weird boss that recycles common mobs, and the staircase in the clocktower would have led straight to Maria.
Ludwig and Laurence were created specifically for the new area.
When the DLC was combined into one package, the Hunter's Nigtmare was invented to tie the two areas together and expand the new locations even further. The Nightmare links the two locations together which would have otherwise appeared on the map in their own locations.
The hamlet could have been anywhere at all. But we have a road in Hemwick Charnel Lane that ends and abruptly becomes a drop off. We pick up a Great Sea rune here. But that road could have continued into a path that led to the fishing hamlet.
The clocktower would have appeared in place of Ebrietas in the Upper Cathedral. The Living Failures could have taken the place of the Celestial Emissary, which is kind of a weird boss that recycles common mobs, and the staircase in the clocktower would have led straight to Maria.
Ludwig and Laurence were created specifically for the new area.
These are just ideas. Stuff I've been thinking about. How stuff forms in development has always been really interesting to me. It's rare we are given this many puzzle pieces in a modern game.
JadedWriter
Member
"Lady Maria, I'm a robin." Have fun turning into a ball.
You mean he doesn't.
JudgmentJay
Member
I get my fill of shitty estus spammers when I PvP. It was definitely cool and unique the first time, but after that point it's just tedious. He's not difficult to kill, he's just annoying. Which is why I ignore him... in the Iron King DLC at least. The invader disguised as a box that backstabs you is amazing though.
JadedWriter
Member
The ones without bodies say some of the trippiest shit.I'll have whatever they are on
JadedWriter
Member
But his head is big as fuck dancing around in a sack or something, he can't make it up.
BOTTOMS UP! -gulp gulp gulp-
This stupid Bowblade is seriously throwing me off my game. Died bunch of times against first boss of the DLC but finally managed it with it.
Yeah. The lack of vibrant colors is what really makes it feel so oppressive atleast to me. Usually I would complain how game is brown or grey or whatever but here it really adds to the atmosphere they were clearly going for. Also Boletaria has one of my favorite cutscenes which is the one where you open the door to 1-3. That has really stuck on me.
edit.
It is a fantastic fight. Didn't top Micholash as my favorite boss though but I don't think anything will to be honest.
Yeah. The lack of vibrant colors is what really makes it feel so oppressive atleast to me. Usually I would complain how game is brown or grey or whatever but here it really adds to the atmosphere they were clearly going for. Also Boletaria has one of my favorite cutscenes which is the one where you open the door to 1-3. That has really stuck on me.
edit.
It is a fantastic fight. Didn't top Micholash as my favorite boss though but I don't think anything will to be honest.
JadedWriter
Member
Penetrator penetrates like Lexington Steele.
One small adjustment to your findings:
The area down below that you can see, just before you fight Ebrietas, that you can't access in the main game, is actually where you fight Vicar Amelia in the Grand Cathedral. If you look closely, you can see the lamp, and the skull at the altar. Not only that, but if you are actually in the Grand Cathedral, you walk out, and you look over the distance straight ahead, you can see the path up above that leads to the Upper Cathedral Ward. You can trace that skyline all the way around, to where the path leads to where you go to fight Celestial Emmisary and eventually going above the Grand Cathedral to Fight Ebrietas.
Edit: And your ideas about the DLC are interesting. I don't think anything is retconned. I just think that they wanted to flesh out some characters that were in the Lore, but did not really appear in the main game as a focus. Also, you have to remember the DLC is called Old Hunters. They could have called it something else, like Wrath of Kos, or something similar. I think the whole Hunter's Nightmare has to tie in because Ludwig and Gherman were Hunters, as well as Maria, and all the Hunter NPCs in the beginning, and the tragedy at the Fishing Hamlet ties in to their backstory. It is like they are subconsciously linked to said tragedy because it has something to do with the source of the Nightmare.
I can understand that Tower of Lateria can have the best/one of the best level designs, but every other level in DeS was decent at best imo.
Brian_FETO
Banned
Lol when LM gets tired of being parried every swing and starts spamming
Had her one parry away from death and buckled
Had her one parry away from death and buckled
ISee
Member
I just finished the DLC. It started pretty good, the whole first nightmare area was interesting and
really felt disturbing. But then came my highlight: The
. Absolutely good designed, great atmosphere, superb introduction and one of the coolest boss fights in Bloodborne. epic!
Very sadly the third part wasn't able to keep up and was a big downfall. I didn't like it at all, the level design was even a bit boring and felt rushed. But maybe it's just me.
first dlc part:8/10
second dlc part:10/10
third dlc part: 6/10
But overall, I enjoyed it. And the biggest downfall: I have no new 'souls' content now till DS3.
the river of blood
Research Hall and Clocktower
Very sadly the third part wasn't able to keep up and was a big downfall. I didn't like it at all, the level design was even a bit boring and felt rushed. But maybe it's just me.
first dlc part:8/10
second dlc part:10/10
third dlc part: 6/10
But overall, I enjoyed it. And the biggest downfall: I have no new 'souls' content now till DS3.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Boletaria as a whole is excellent and 4-2 remains as one of the best levels in the entire series.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Also, has anyone been parried by
and the suffered a visceral attack?
Is...so...beautiful.
Lady Maria
Is...so...beautiful.
Finale Fireworker
Member
Wow, seriously?
Because I originally assumed that, because I thought it was so weird that you couldn't access that lower area. But when I got a closer look at it, the geography didn't seem to check out. I know From geography doesn't always check out, especially in regards to shape and distance, but I thought it was way, way off.
If that's really the Grand Cathedral, it's definitely weird. Because that means the Hunter's Nightmare has
two Grand Cathedrals. The one where you fight Laurence and the one where you fight the church women and take the elevator up.
Which is okay because it's a twisted nightmare with no rules, but it's definitely strange.
I'll have to visit that area again when I get home and scope it out for myself. Because I thought that I concluded it had to be a different Cathedral all together based on the architecture and map layout. I thought Ebrietas was closer to the Oedon Chapel area and very far away from the Grand Cathedral.
Stonefang (specifically 2-2) is massively underrated. I love the intense claustrophobia and how endless, aimless, and confusing the tunnels are.
I mentioned it few pages ago
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187416414&postcount=8779
it is beautiful indeed <3
she is a scrub tho she misses the visceral like 90% of time lol.
JudgmentJay
Member
The first key item you get in the DLC says that there are two cathedrals in the nightmare =P
http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Eye+Pendant
And yes, Ebrietas lives underneath the Grand Cathedral.
Yeah, it is strange that in the Nightmare there are
. I guess it doesn't matter, because it is a Nightmare realm, where it is a twisted take on the real area. But in a way it makes sense because they wanted to show you two different things in the same place.
two Grand Cathedrals
Yep, so the item even says it.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Smelter v2 has one new move but was otherwise a palette swap, yeah. I wasn't saying L was recycled, but the early Nightmare level was. Many of the enemies are not even new (Old Yharnam beasts, blood ticks, crows) and many of the new ones are just variants of old ones (hunters mobs).
Research? Can't these people read simple instructions? Holy shit...
Pretty convenient excuse isn't it? "Oh it recycles assets because it's a nightmare version of Yharnam!" Uh-huh... (nevermind that the nightmare levels in the game had unique architecture and layouts...)
Um, the hunters in the standard game call you "cursed beast" too...
So... just like Central Yharnam?
Now that is legit funny.
lol... heh. I lost to her wayyyy more often than the other bosses.
Finale Fireworker
Member
Totally bizarre! Very cool.
Probably a consequence of combining areas and inventing a new one to compliment one that would have already existed?
Or, just a side effect of the Nightmare World and nobody on the team thought having two Cathedrals was weird.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah I was pretty dissapointed with the third area as well. It's especially a bummer since the atmosphere and story details are amazing. I was hoping it would have been designed sort of like the Forbidden Woods. Instead the level and encounter design felt more like something out of Dark Souls 2. Haphazard enemy mobs, spams of ranged and tank enemies, explosive barrels everywhere, really short area with uninteresting shortcuts and progession, annoying NPC summons, etc. Bleh. At least it ends with a good boss.
There are far more than that in the DLC.
WAIT. I need to see this.