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[PuppetMaster]

I had this discussion last night, there is no difference in quality at the moment between bluray and hddvd.

Not in audio. Several multi format movies have better optional audio tracks on BR because the additional storage space.

 

[gofreak]

The HD-DVD vent is canceled anyways

I meant moves in favour of Blu-ray...e.g. Universal or Paramount announcing BD support. I don't think it's a matter of happening at CES or never happening, that's basically what I'm saying.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

It's not infeasible..for some people. But for the vast majority, particularly talking globally if not locally in somewhere like the US, there will be a need for physical distribution for quite a long time yet. Blu-ray could well be the last physical standard, but it is needed.

Absolutely. All formats have been needed to a certain extent. I just don't think it's going to blow any doors down on a DVD level due to the timing. DVD still has years to go and DVR storage will be five times (if not more) what it is by the time it's dead.

 

[avaya]

I had this discussion last night, there is no difference in quality at the moment between bluray and hddvd.

Michael Bay says the HD-DVD encode of Transformers was not of the quality he wanted, he said(hinted) a Blu-ray encode would produce better results. There is no credible come back to this, hence the personal attacks on Bay. Amir tried to explain that VC-1 was transparent to the master yadda yadda. Bay was having none of it since he saw it with his own eyes.

 

[Tobor]

People argue about the infeasability of Digital Distribution when really the only impediment is hard drive space. I got Children of Men in HD last night for the time it took for me to record it onto my DVR. It's non-transferrable, sure, but it was also free. I doubt I'm the only one who consumes a large portion of their HD content this way, and that's a percentage of the already miniscule segment that actually properly does.

You and I get it, but 10 knuckleheads will respond with how DD is years away, and the bandwidth can't handle it, and all that nonsense.

I'm really interested to see how Apple will handle the rentals come Macworld. Renting at home is awesome, but a rental I can transfer to my iPhone and watch on the plane would be outstanding.

EDIT: Gofreak: Yes, I am speaking about America.

 

[Loudninja]

I meant moves in favour of Blu-ray...e.g. Universal or Paramount announcing BD support. I don't think it's a matter of happening at CES or never happening, that's basically what I'm saying.

Oh ok, sorry

 

[PuppetMaster]

Sony should offer a proper way out to Toshiba so that it does not lose face so that blu-ray soars faster.

BDA should also, for a very modest price (cost of burning/printing a BRD basically) allow standard exchange of HDDVD to Blu-Ray so that early adopters of HDDVD keep enjoying HD.

But i already feel the pain from 360 HDDVD add on owners.

Only gracefull transition for Toshiba that I can think of is for them to start offering combo disc BR/HD players. That way they can say they are not letting HDDVD just fade into oblivion. And yet not look totally foolish in supporting a dead format.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You and I get it, but 10 knuckleheads will respond with how DD is years away, and the bandwidth can't handle it, and all that nonsense.

I'm really interested to see how Apple will handle the rentals come Macworld. Renting at home is awesome, but a rental I can transfer to my iPhone and watch on the plane would be outstanding.

That's because contrary to the brush we tend to painted with, we're looking at this outside the realm of the System Warz. It's understandable. If you favor Sony, it's difficult not to look at this as a PS3 related issue and see any realistic look at the difficulties any HD disc format faces as a slight against the console, or rooted in some kind of sneaky dislike for it.

But that's just not the case.

 

[gofreak]

Absolutely. All formats have been needed to a certain extent. I just don't think it's going to blow any doors down on a DVD level due to the timing.

Without comparing to DVD, though, I think it could get "big". The industry clearly sees a lot of potential in it, but it has to knuckle down and push it once they've settled on one format. And they will want to push it over DVD given that it's a growth opportunity, DVD really isn't any more.

 

[Kittonwy]

Other HD-DVD studios jumping the fence isn't a matter of happening at CES or not happening at all. I think these events have probably surprised the other studios as much as it has Toshiba, and I doubt they'd have enough time to make any moves that could be announced at CES at this stage.

Doesn't mean it can't happen in the coming months, though. Paramount is contractually stuck with HD-DVD unless there's a get-out of some form, but Universal I think have always maintained that they're not bound to support HD-DVD exclusively.



It's not infeasible..for some people. But for the vast majority, particularly talking globally if not locally in somewhere like the US, there will be a need for physical distribution for quite a long time yet. Blu-ray could well be the last physical standard, but it is needed.

I think all eyes are on Universal now, and they know they need to make the jump, it's just a matter of working it out with the BDA at this point, there's no reason for them to back HD-DVD now that they're obviously on the losing side and they don't need to side with the losers.

 

[Uncle]

"How much resources would developers commit" was the question, "system that sells more movies than games" was passed as a fact in that question. That's why I asked if you had any evidence...

Maybe you should think twice before saying something like that.

Oh for fucks sake. I see that you aren't exactly the sharpest spoon, but do you at least understand how this post relates to the thread now? Oh nevermind...

 

[Tobor]

Michael Bay says the HD-DVD encode of Transformers was not of the quality he wanted, he said(hinted) a Blu-ray encode would produce better results. There is no credible come back to this, hence the personal attacks on Bay. Amir tried to explain that VC-1 was transparent to the master yadda yadda. Bay was having none of it since he saw it with his own eyes.

Every version of Transformers is not of the quality I wanted, if you know what I mean. Why people look to Micheal Bay for opinions is beyond me.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Without comparing to DVD, though, I think it could get "big". The industry clearly sees a lot of potential in it, but it has to knuckle down and push it once they've settled on one format.

I thinks settling the format war goes a LONG way to doing that, absolutely. I agree that simply by the nature of HDTV adoption, the amount of videophiles has grown significantly and you're going to see Blu-Ray take off at a much quicker rate than DVD did when it was catering to that same niche audience. When Blu-Ray players hit $200, it's going be a very big format. But, it's still a $200 media, and DVD is a $40 one.

 

[gofreak]

I thinks settling the format war goes a LONG way to doing that, absolutely. I agree that simply by the nature of HDTV adoption, the amount of videophiles has grown significantly and you're going to see Blu-Ray take off at a much quicker rate than DVD did when it was catering to that same niche audience. When Blu-Ray players hit $200, it's going be a very big format. But, it's still a $200 media, and DVD is a $40 one.

True, but that won't last forever if they get a certain amount of momentum going. And I don't think they'll need DVD-sized momentum to hit that point. You should see mass market, cheap (<$100) BD players eventually, I guess a lot of it depends on how quickly the market grows, the faster the better.

 

[PuppetMaster]

I think all eyes are on Universal now, and they know they need to make the jump, it's just a matter of working it out with the BDA at this point, there's no reason for them to back HD-DVD now that they're obviously on the losing side and they don't need to side with the losers.

Ya think how much money Universal stands to make by bringing all their existing HD-DVD titles to BR in 2008. They have got all these titles BR owners have been dying to get their hands on. And it would be so easy for them to bring them over. It's not like they have to remaster any new data or anything.

It would be almost pure profit!

 

[avaya]

You and I get it, but 10 knuckleheads will respond with how DD is years away, and the bandwidth can't handle it, and all that nonsense.

I'm really interested to see how Apple will handle the rentals come Macworld. Renting at home is awesome, but a rental I can transfer to my iPhone and watch on the plane would be outstanding.

It is sad that people have no comprehension of the bandwidth demands that mainstream DD requires for HD. Even 720p bit-rate starved VC-1 HD.

Average home connection speeds are below 8MB minimum requirement. Most are bandwidth limited/capped.

Contention as an issue is so huge that a lot of people think without some new paradigm, streaming will never work. There are some solutions with P2P.

For mainstream adoption DD is literally a pipe dream that is at least decade away from reality for HD content. That is a reality that this knucklehead is all too aware of, and I support DD for rentals.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

True, but that won't last forever if they get a certain amount of momentum going. And I don't think they'll need DVD-sized momentum to hit that point. You should see mass market, cheap (<$100) BD players eventually, I guess a lot of it depends on how quickly the market grows, the faster the better.

Yup. I don't just want LOST Season 3, if you catch my meaning.

 

[Kittonwy]

Only gracefull transition for Toshiba that I can think of is for them to start offering combo disc BR/HD players. That way they can say they are not letting HDDVD just fade into oblivion. And yet not look totally foolish in supporting a dead format.

I doubt the BDA is in favor of hybrid players at this point, perhaps earlier they could have worked it out but whatever common ground the BDA and Toshiba had evaporated a long time ago. I wonder if the other BDA members would even want to let Toshiba get a cut of their profits when it's clear now that the jig is up for Toshiba and HD-DVD. Sony on the other hand does have a good relationship with Toshiba outside this silly format war so I wonder how they'll approach this. I'm more interested in what companies like Samsung who are offering both format players will do, will they get out of the HD-DVD player market now? Clear out their remaining inventory and commit to BD from now on? Once Toshiba is isolated the end will come quickly.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

It is sad that people have no comprehension of the bandwidth demands that mainstream DD requires for HD. Even 720p bit-rate starved VC-1 HD.

Average home connection speeds are below 8MB minimum requirement. Most are bandwidth limited/capped.

Contention as an issue is so huge that a lot of people think without some new paradigm, streaming will never work. There are some solutions with P2P.

For mainstream adoption DD is literally a pipe dream that is at least decade away from reality for HD content. That is a reality that this knucklehead is all too aware of, and I support DD for rentals.

But rentals and streaming are not the only option. I have no idea what bucket it falls into, but I watched Children of Men in HD last night, recorded it, and now it's mine, in HD, until I erase it or get a new box.

That is the dissemination and enjoyment of HD content and put no more strain on my bandwith than an email to Grammy. Figuratively speaking.

 

[jaaz]

All I know is that there are going to be some pretty pissed-off consumers who bought an HD-DVD player during Toshiba's "fire-sale" this past Christmas...

 

[Subitai]

This only directly helps PS3 for the few months left where it is cheaper than a stand alone player.

After that, it becomes you get a BRD player at a discount with your system.


And then, unless Microsoft releases a BRD add-on, this hurts Xbox 360, especially in Europe where its already falling behind PS3 in daily sales.


It goes without saying that Wii is unaffected by this.

 

[Tobor]

It is sad that people have no comprehension of the bandwidth demands that mainstream DD requires for HD. Even 720p bit-rate starved VC-1 HD.

Average home connection speeds are below 8MB minimum requirement. Most are bandwidth limited/capped.

Contention as an issue is so huge that a lot of people think without some new paradigm, streaming will never work. There are some solutions with P2P.

For mainstream adoption DD is literally a pipe dream that is at least decade away from reality for HD content. That is a reality that this knucklehead is all too aware of, and I support DD for rentals.

I'm not sure where you live, friend. But this is simply not true in America. It's just wrong. There are several working viable options available today. But keep on with the "decades down the road" FUD, if it makes you feel better.

Do you have any idea how annoying it is for someone to tell you that something you do 3 times a week is "a decade away"?

I'm not rich, or in some test market either. I'm talking about what you can do with a Comcast cable box and a 360.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Do you have any idea how annoying it is for someone to tell you that something you do 3 times a week is "a decade away"?

Very. It's "very".

 

[avaya]

But rentals and streaming are not the only option. I have no idea what bucket it falls into, but I watched Children of Men in HD last night, recorded it, and now it's mine, in HD, until I erase it or get a new box.

That is the dissemination and enjoyment of HD content and put no more strain on my bandwith than an email to Grammy. Figuratively speaking.

PVRs are a different market.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

PVRs are a different market.

How is distributing HD content in a cheaper and more feasible way not competition for Blu-Ray?

Unless PVR is different than DVR.

 

[Tobor]

PVRs are a different market.

FAIL. Epic fail.

"CD's will be fine, iTunes is a different market."

Whatever gets content to the tv set cheaply with good quality, that's all that matters.

 

[Iadien]

Sweet, I hope I can get Bourne Trilogy on Blu-Ray!

 

[PuppetMaster]

It goes without saying that Wii is unaffected by this.

Yes but what about Wii 2?

Both MS and Nintendo are going to have to choose a media format for their next console.

It's very very unlikely that a fully download only platform will be viable in time for the next generation. Even if by some miracle breakthough the infrastructure appears to allow that kind of common broadband access to ever one's homes. There will be A LOT of consumers that just don't want to stop buying physical media. It is just too risky to not have a media delivery format for the next upcomming gen.

If BR because the one and only Movie disc format, MS is going to look silly if their next console is not using it or does not have the ability to play it. And Nintendo if they stick with DVD might have difficulty attracting 3rd parties if they are the only platform without high capacity discs.

 

[neojubei]

Sweet, I hope I can get Bourne Trilogy on Blu-Ray!

It will be a while before we see that. Now the Lord of the Rings Trilogy on Blu-ray would be awesome.

 

[Tobor]

Yes but what about Wii 2?

Both MS and Nintendo are going to have to choose a media format for their next console.

It's very very unlikely that a fully download only platform will be viable in time for the next generation. Even if by some miracle breakthough the infrastructure appears to allow that kind of common broadband access to ever one's homes. There will be A LOT of consumers that just don't want to stop buying physical media. It is just too risky to not have a media delivery format for the next upcomming gen.

If BR because the one and only Movie disc format, MS is going to look silly if their next console is not using it or does not have the ability to play it. And Nintendo if they stick with DVD might have difficulty attracting 3rd parties if they are the only platform without high capacity discs.

1. /Sigh at the bolded

2. They'll just put BD drives in. What's the drama?

 

[Uncle]

If BR because the one and only Movie disc format, MS is going to look silly if their next console is not using it or does not have the ability to play it. And Nintendo if they stick with DVD might have difficulty attracting 3rd parties if they are the only platform without high capacity discs.

Didn't someone from MS say that they could make an external blu-ray player, if they felt it would be worth it? I really don't see any problems with MS (or Nintendo if they decide to hop on to the graphics train again) making their next console with a blu-ray drive.

 

[Tr4nce]

 

[kinggroin]

FAIL. Epic fail.

"CD's will be fine, iTunes is a different market."

Whatever gets content to the tv set cheaply with good quality, that's all that matters.

You mean, at a quality the mass market will accept.

As it is, I can't see current HDTV broadcasts or HD cable rentals being quality acceptable for av enthusiasts. Enough for the mass market? Almost, but certainly not "good quality". THAT part will take a while imo (thanks to bandwidth limitations).

 

[Tiduz]

 

[Tobor]

You mean, at a quality the mass market will accept.

As it is, I can't see current HDTV broadcasts or HD cable rentals being quality acceptable for av enthusiasts. Enough for the mass market? Almost, but certainly not "good quality". THAT part will take a while imo (thanks to bandwidth limitations).

720P is way more than enough for the mass market. Heck, DVD is enough for the mass market, even on HDTVs. You're kidding yourself.

And, honestly, I'm not talking about AV enthusiasts. AV enthusiasts will get your format as far as laserdisc. It takes the mass market to hit DVD levels.

 

[jaaz]

I suspect we might get an announcement from Paramount and Universal sooner than we think. If the attorney representing Paramount in its exclusivity deal with Toshiba was worth its salt, he would have made sure the exclusivity agreement contained an escape clause provision that would trigger when, among other things, a major studio like Warner announced it would be backing Blue-Ray exclusively.

In any event, you can be sure that agreement does not force Paramount to be the lone wolf backing HD-DVD for two years while the rest of the world goes Blue.

 

[kinggroin]

720P is way more than enough for the mass market. Heck, DVD is enough for the mass market, even on HDTVs. You're kidding yourself.

And, honestly, I'm not talking about AV enthusiasts. AV enthusiasts will get your format as far as laserdisc. It takes the mass market to hit DVD levels.

I'm not talking resoution, but actual picture quality for HD video. Can't tell you how many times folks comment about the picture "breaking up" during fast movement. Bandwidth, in other words.

We're not actually disagreeing btw, read a bit more carefully.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You mean, at a quality the mass market will accept.

As it is, I can't see current HDTV broadcasts or HD cable rentals being quality acceptable for av enthusiasts. Enough for the mass market? Almost, but certainly not "good quality". THAT part will take a while imo (thanks to bandwidth limitations).

AGAIN. It's absolutely "good" fucking quality. Or are we going to start debating, instead of the gap between DVD and HD resolution, any kind of serious significant gap between my HD Cable signal and one on Disc?

Fact: Children Of Men on my HD Cable box looks better than a DVD. That's "good quality". Why on earth would anyone try and convince me otherwise?

 

[Tobor]

AGAIN. It's absolutely "good" fucking quality. Or are we going to start debating, instead of the gap between DVD and HD resolution, any kind of serious significant gap between my HD Cable signal and one on Disc?

Fact: Children Of Men on my HD Cable box looks better than a DVD. That's "good quality". Why on earth would anyone try and convince me otherwise?

Because they are AV enthusiasts, and that's the disconnect. Audiophiles to this day bitch and moan about MP3's.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Because they are AV enthusiasts, and that's the disconnect. Audiophiles to this day bitch and moan about MP3's.

And I didn't even say "great quality"!

 

[avaya]

I'm not sure where you live, friend. But this is simply not true in America. It's just wrong. There are several working viable options available today. But keep on with the "decades down the road" FUD, if it makes you feel better.

Do you have any idea how annoying it is for someone to tell you that something you do 3 times a week is "a decade away"?

I'm not rich, or in some test market either. I'm talking about what you can do with a Comcast cable box and a 360.

You =/= Mainstream.

DELIVERY

You use Comcast and XBL for DD rentals. That’s great.

From a mainstream perspective both of those are of zero relevance because so few people use those services for this that none of the major issues that will arise present themselves.

Contention
When a DVD releases some ~5million copies are sold on the first day. No network on the planet can handle 5million users almost certainly saturating their connections to obtain a film on its release day let alone a million.

In the case of Comcast, they are a cable provider who pay for their own bandwidth.

I live in the UK, our average net connection, the PR advertised speed is greater than the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7112373.stm#anchor

That graph is advertised PR connection speed. The top speed you can get is not the issue. 24MB is necessary, 8MB minimum. The issue is average actual connection for the country. In the UK it's barely 2MB. It’s better than the US. A lot of those are bandwidth limited

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/intc1107.pdf (page 3)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7105242.stm
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2007-06-25-net-speeds_N.htm

It's not much different across the rest of the world. The US isn’t ahead of us and we are not ready for this.

The primary method of broadband internet adoption across the planet is through DSL. Due to attenuation DSL needs RADSL II upgrade to 24Mbps across the entire network to ensure people can get sufficient connection speeds, an 8MB line won’t cut it because it won’t deliver that speed.

PVRs/DVRs
I have Sky+, it allows me to record my TV. It’s like Tivo. Does that mean I record off Sky Movies and don’t buy DVDs? No.

Why does this magically change when it comes to Sky HD? It doesn’t.

Unless you're talking of something other than standard “I can record it off TV and keep it” functionalty, then it is a different market that has no real impact what so ever on the DVD market.

 

[PuppetMaster]

I'm not talking resoution, but actual picture quality for HD video. Can't tell you how many times folks comment about the picture "breaking up" during fast movement. Bandwidth, in other words.

We're not actually disagreeing btw, read a bit more carefully.

I know the last Harry Potter movie (Pheonix) looked like total crap when I saw it on regular DVD! Like shockingly bad. It's like they didn't even bother tweaking it and making sure there were not horrible compression artifacts eveywhere because they knew the videophiles were all going to get the BR/HD versions.

To those who have seen it, one of the worst parts was that scene toward the end where all that glass shatters and comes down was just terrible. Their compression did not correctly compensate for all that motion on screen. It was like looking at jpgs from IGN or something!

 

[Tobor]

And I didn't even say "great quality"!

I think it's time we drive our Deloreans back up to 88mph, and head back to the future, when bandwidth is available to download and stream movies in good HD quality.

"Where we're going, we don't need roads."

 

[InterMoniker]

It's being jumped all over on the OT, but not everyone here goes to the OT and IMO, this is big enough that it is definitely going to have some ramifications on the PS3's performance one would think. Or do gamers not really, really care?

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSN0432340820080104

I care!

Oh Snap! Should i start digging the grave?

Need any help

:lol




me too

Justin Timberlake in a Halo Helmet.

Spoiler

I hate your avatar.

 

[Tobor]

a lot of stuff about the UK

Comcast is the biggest cable company in the United States. They have millions of customers, and every one of them who also owns an HDTV has the capability to do what I'm doing.

I'm not disagreeing with you about DVD's. They rule the market, and will continue to rule.

 

[Doc Evils]

I suspect we might get an announcement from Paramount and Universal sooner than we think. If the attorney representing Paramount in its exclusivity deal with Toshiba was worth its salt, he would have made sure the exclusivity agreement contained an escape clause provision that would trigger when, among other things, a major studio like Warner announced it would be backing Blue-Ray exclusively.

In any event, you can be sure that agreement does not force Paramount to be the lone wolf backing HD-DVD for two years while the rest of the world goes Blue.

I'm more interested if Universal might switch soon leaving Paramount fuxx0rd.

 

[avaya]

Comcast is the biggest cable company in the United States. They have millions of customers, and every one of them who also owns an HDTV has the capability to do what I'm doing.

I'm not disagreeing with you about DVD's. They rule the market, and will continue to rule.

I know who Comcast are. The point is the UK is ahead of the US. We aren't even ready. So you sure as hell aren't. Every point is analogous.

 

[InterMoniker]

I'm more interested if Universal might switch soon leaving Paramount fuxx0rd.

It might be storming like crazy here in California but I can see the future is Blu!

 

[Beatbox]

720P is way more than enough for the mass market. Heck, DVD is enough for the mass market, even on HDTVs. You're kidding yourself.

And, honestly, I'm not talking about AV enthusiasts. AV enthusiasts will get your format as far as laserdisc. It takes the mass market to hit DVD levels.

But 720p != 720p when heavy compression and artifacting are a result of limited bandwidth. Speaking of DVR's - how many hours of HD content can you store on your Comcast box? I think mine holds about 10 hours maybe 12. Practical for record it watch it delete it but not a great solution for keeping HD content around on.

On the PC downloadable side of things, ISP bandwidth becomes another concern. Comcast has an "unspoken" cap on bandwidth for their internet service. They don't quote it, won't tell you the limit, but will threaten to terminate service for a few months when you reach a point they don't like. So even if a PC sevice is introduced with HD quality movies that equals BD you can't say that storage is the only concern.

It's cool if you and Benjamin are pleased with the quality of HD cable - nobody is trying to tell you that you shouldn't be - but rest assured there are just as many people that are not pleased with the quality and barely find it acceptable let alone decent.

 

[Tobor]

I know who Comcast are. The point is the UK is ahead of the US. We aren't even ready. So you sure as hell aren't. Every point is analogous.

Thank you for this information. I will make sure to call Comcast and let them know they can turn off the free HD movies, we aren't ready for them.

My friends are going to be pissed, they use the service all the time, but I'll head them your way so you can explain.

We might need to tell all the US ISP's to go ahead and slow down the data rates, as renting movies on the 360 is currently at an acceptable speed, but that shouldn't be a problem.